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Unread 17 Mar 2005, 23:32   #1
JetLinus
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Arrow What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Ok, in the near future I'll probably have a spare Pentium 200Mhz (no MMX), 32MB RAM, 2MB PCI graphic. This might actually be a Pentium II 233 with 128MB of RAM, but let's not focus on that.

The point is: What could I do with it. Ok, what I will most certainly NOT do with it:
Use it as a linux router.
I've already got a router, and I need at least 2 devices connected to it, and I won't be putting 3 NICs into the P200.

So. I defenitely want my P200 to be able to redirect // issue broadcasts to LAN, to wake up my real computer by Wake-on-LAN. (My router doesn't forward broadcasts). The tool for this shouldn't be a problem.

Still the MAIN thing is missing.
Now, stop laughing, but I plan to use Win98 and VB6 as software. It probably sucks stable- and performance-wise, but at least I know how it works and can do stuff with it.


Well, now WHAT kind of server?
I'm sitting behind UNI-Network, 100mbps. Between 100 and 500kb/s upload, between 300 and 1000kb/s download, varies from time to time.
I don't want to use more than 1 GB traffic a month to external (i.e. internet) IPs, internal is traffic free (whole campus etc...).

It should be something really special. Something unique. Could be:
  • IRC Chatbot, Bouncer, whatever? ICQ<->MSN-Interface? VPN-Style?
  • Parse newssites, some sort information, status pages, generate useful output?
  • Generate / handle some sort of database? Addresses, phonenumbers, birthdays?
  • Collect status information? Systemstatus, temperature, weather? But then what? Something like world-internet-report: Just ping servers all day?
  • MP3-stream, shoutcast?
  • Invent some new kind of P2P, and let this be the master-node?
  • Host some sort of game, either very small / old / handy, or just be the "gamelist" server of it?
  • Comedy-"create some sort of PA-like game and start it on that server"-option

Help me out here. I need something GENIOUS, something GREAT, you know. But not too complex .

Anyway, do some brainstorming pls....


P.S.: Good example: In my house there is a nice service. You can schedule which TV programs to record, and there is a server which will do it for you fully automatically. You can then download the generated AVI-files from it.
This is a bit too much for 200mhz obviously, and it's done already anyway. But this is the kind of "invention" I'm looking for...
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Unread 17 Mar 2005, 23:55   #2
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Why not use win2k? Although the 32 Mb RAM might be a problem, it is much more stable than win98.
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 00:38   #3
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Arrow Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Well yeah maybe, but actually I don't know of anything that would crash Win98 in this case. I mean, no print queue, no firewall running (all shielded behind the NAT router), no virus scan, no background processes, nothing apart from the drivers.
And lets face it, I don't even really need sound activated, or anything...
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 00:48   #4
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

win 98 doesnt need a reason to crash. Often it -just does-

plus. all windows 9x machines need to be rebooted every so often or they`re just sluggish beyond reason
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 00:52   #5
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Arrow Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

I made my own experiences. I just trust it. And if not I'll stick a PowerOff-Client on it and reboot remotely every other night.
The thing is, I can't program internet- (or any other) stuff stable or good enough to get anything working but with VB6. And VB6 needs Windows. And Windows on a P200, there is not much of a choice, see?

I could try the whole thing in Java, but
- I've never done socket / IP programming with that, I don't even know how to read files or create forms or whatever, just do console input and output, and

- Java sucks even more than VB imo...
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 00:59   #6
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Quote:
Comedy-"create some sort of PA-like game and start it on that server"-option
You know it makes sense.
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 01:45   #7
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

sockets in java are fairly simple, as is reading/writing to/from files .
Creating forms is trickier yet still easy once you get to grips with the swing api

if you want i`ll send you some java code which does sockets ( multithreaded sockets at that too ) , read/write files and a basic intro to swing

Still you are in a bit of a pickle with that machine.
i dont regard Vb as a -language- though personally
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 02:14   #8
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Arrow Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Ok let's just not worry about the implementation (maybe I'll fool around with java and c++ or whatever and even linux).

For now, I just need an IDEA. And then I can work on a design or something or just think about it or plan or stuff...
I need some REASON, you see...
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 07:47   #9
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetLinus
The thing is, I can't program internet- (or any other) stuff stable or good enough to get anything working but with VB6. And VB6 needs Windows. And Windows on a P200, there is not much of a choice, see?
It depends on what you want to program, but you can use ASP (maybe in combination with a database?).
If you know VB, then learning ASP isn't difficult (it is vbcript). Win98 has a personal webserver, but it still is a crappy OS.
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 15:22   #10
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Arrow Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetLinus
Ok let's just not worry about the implementation (maybe I'll fool around with java and c++ or whatever and even linux).

For now, I just need an IDEA. And then I can work on a design or something or just think about it or plan or stuff...
I need some REASON, you see...
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 17:49   #11
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

I have socket module in C++ if you need any of that.
But for most of the stuff you mentioned you can use an Apache/PHP/MySQL combo. The address book, site parsing, status info collecting (use the PHP SNMP module for major rockage)... a webserver would do the job.
I got a half-working (read: barely working) DETO PA in ASP here (VB Script) if you're interested in that. You need an IIS/MySQL combo for it. But if I were you I'd build one from scratch as it's over three years old and I could barely program in those days.
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 17:55   #12
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

And if you need a reason - don't build a BIG game with BIG plans...
Too much effort.
No, I'm serious!
A DETO PA is do-able, if you know how to create more complex software projects.

But Peer-to-peer is a very interesting thing to work on. I graduated making a P2P platform. It was relatively simple, but in the end it worked. It took me 5 months of full-time work though.
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 18:22   #13
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Arrow Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Yeah, I once tried to make a game, I know how daaaaaaaaaaamn long things like this take, even if you're working with some people on it (doesn't always make it easier).

I will never ever try to make a big game by myself. The project I mentioned before wasn't big, not even normal, but whatever.


I also know how complex P2P can get. I've read some professional articles about it that I barely understood (some not at all actually). There are already open source platforms you can use ("pastry" being one). So I wouldn't really want something like that. I'd get help by someone (like he does the clients and I the server or vice versa), but it's not about programming, more about design. And at one point sooner or later the mathematics kick in...

And it's not like I got too much spare time anyway, I'm struggling to get everything done at the moment already :-/


Well, yeah, so it's gotta be AS SIMPLE AS IT GETS.

Still, what's the small small tiny "hole of the internet", that hasn't been used yet?
I mean, if you'd head the idea of http://www.gnoosic.com/ first. Or like this automatic-vcr-thing I mentioned...


Edit: A game would be nice, sure. VERY simple. And I'd try to make it NOT a browser game. Saving traffic by saving "<html>" and stuff, and just use some well-designed protocol. I'd provide a (simple again) client, and people could feel free to develop one themselves (oh, I just noticed a potential bot-problem there ^^).
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 19:26   #14
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

I had ideas about a PA-like game but with a interface a lá Imperium Galactica 2 but without the ground battle stuff and having multiple planets. I believe someone still has in his sig "make Structural creator because he'll make PA 3D". This all was written in some ancient post on the PD forums.

*search* *search*
Here it is.

Now that I'm searching the PD forums, I notice I made a lot of posts there concerning the concept of PA and tick-based browser games. I never thought I posted that much drivel.

Anyway...

if you want to push down bandwidth and don't have the time/knowledge to make a client, consider using frames and CSS in an external file.
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 19:49   #15
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Quote:
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consider using frames
You just made the list
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 20:23   #16
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

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You just made the list
So you're jumping the "frames are evil" bandwagon here?
I know the general con's of frames, but they are a possible solution to bringing down bandwidth requirements when you're still bound to HTML based interfaces.

"Use the right tool for the right job" was it. no?
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Unread 18 Mar 2005, 21:10   #17
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Our bandwagon has hookers.
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Unread 19 Mar 2005, 19:56   #18
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

I read somewhere a while back that Windows 98 has a bug in one of the system files that causes it to hang after 28 days and a few hours. I'll see if I can find a link tomorrow, just thought I'd throw that in for consideration.

Why don't you use the machine as some form of digital asset management? Dump a big disk into it, catalog all your MP3/WMV/WMA/MPEG/* whatever using metadata and add a web front end or maybe a java client for machines to browse the collection. Give appropriate passwords / permissions for the software to good friends inside the uni and develop a centralised database containing all the music. Obviously on this scale you'd need a big disk in there as the files would need to be stored centrally too, but you don't need to give them access to the filesystem as friends can upload and catalog the files via the client / web interface.
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Unread 20 Mar 2005, 03:41   #19
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

If you've only got 32mb of ram use linux without gnome/kde.
Try vector linux and tell me what it's like.
You could do all kinds of servery business on it.
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Unread 20 Mar 2005, 10:26   #20
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Skiddy is correct but AFAIK that doesn't apply to 98SE, only 98. A clock counter would overflow after about a month and cause the machine to lock up.

As for your machine, you could use it as a tunnel server to get around all sorts of things if you want.
I run OpenSSH on my (dah dah daaaah! linux!) router, but it has been ported to Windows if you really must. You could then forward a standard port (say 20, FTP), which will be open on most firewalls in schools and offices, from your router to SSHd on that machine, and you've got yourself an encrypted tunnel you can do what you like with.

This is what I've done, minus the port forwarding as I run it on the router itself.
I open PuTTY on my XP machine at work, specify the local ports I want to forward (let's say 6667 to irc.netgamers.org for IRC accesss), and connect to my home router on port 20 because our work firewall allows that to let people use FTP. Then to get on IRC I open mIRC, type "/server localhost:6667", and that is forwarded out through the firewall, to my router at home, and then off to netgamers.
The best bit is that it's all encrypted so no-one can see what you're doing even if they notice.


As to your reason for not wanting to go down the linux router route, mine only has 2 network cards but serves 4 other PCs.
Internet <--> Cable modem <--> Router <--> SWITCH

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Unread 21 Mar 2005, 08:47   #21
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

turn it into a world of warcraft server. yes, thats a very good idea in fact.
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Unread 21 Mar 2005, 09:19   #22
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Quote:
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The best bit is that it's all encrypted so no-one can see what you're doing even if they notice.
Except when they are standing behind you looking over your shoulder while you are listening to your music with your headset on and see a colourfull mIRC screen.
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Unread 21 Mar 2005, 12:32   #23
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

They'd have to be floating in mid-air outside the office window to pull that one off
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Unread 21 Mar 2005, 14:51   #24
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiddy
I read somewhere a while back that Windows 98 has a bug in one of the system files that causes it to hang after 28 days and a few hours. I'll see if I can find a link tomorrow, just thought I'd throw that in for consideration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Skiddy is correct but AFAIK that doesn't apply to 98SE, only 98. A clock counter would overflow after about a month and cause the machine to lock up.
I could just reboot the machine every fortnight or so anyway. I'd put everything to auto-start, so it can "run unattended". I'd figure out some way that rebooting shouldn't be a problem (because it WILL be necessary when using Windows 98, I know that).
I've got just one screen anyway...


Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
As for your machine, you could use it as a tunnel server to get around all sorts of things if you want.
I run OpenSSH on my (dah dah daaaah! linux!) router, but it has been ported to Windows if you really must. You could then forward a standard port (say 20, FTP), which will be open on most firewalls in schools and offices, from your router to SSHd on that machine, and you've got yourself an encrypted tunnel you can do what you like with.
...

The best bit is that it's all encrypted so no-one can see what you're doing even if they notice.
Good idea! In this uni-network I'm currently connecting through (sort of my ISP if you want), lots of public well known ports are blocked. Everything < 1024, Various P2P, Trojans & Worms, server-ports (8080 and stuff).
But I could use custom ones of course.
I currently have nowhere I'd wanna use something special, and I'm not into IRC atm as well.

A specific tunnel would still be great though. Will set it up once needed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
As to your reason for not wanting to go down the linux router route, mine only has 2 network cards but serves 4 other PCs.
Internet <--> Cable modem <--> Router <--> SWITCH
Ouh, basic network knowledge, there it is . Ok, understood that so for. Would even be nicer, as my current router has only a 10mbit WAN port, but the connection is 100mbit. And the internal P2P would be worth the extra speed.

I'd still need to get 2 NICs for the server. As well as set up static DHCP (i.e., certain MAC addresses get certain IPs assigned). Or would that still do my router? It does now. Hm, I guess yeah, so I have sort of "static IPs" in my network.
The router-pc would then have to forward all the VoIP ports to my internet-phone. I don't know how complicated IP-tables and those things are, but I need my phone and would have to get that working properly without great experimenting....


Quote:
Originally Posted by skiddy
Why don't you use the machine as some form of digital asset management? Dump a big disk into it, catalog all your MP3/WMV/WMA/MPEG/* whatever using metadata and add a web front end or maybe a java client for machines to browse the collection. Give appropriate passwords / permissions for the software to good friends inside the uni and develop a centralised database containing all the music. Obviously on this scale you'd need a big disk in there as the files would need to be stored centrally too, but you don't need to give them access to the filesystem as friends can upload and catalog the files via the client / web interface.
Hm, nice, BIG idea. To get all of that, I'd need a variety of skills (including some sort of web-interface, be it custom HTTP server or PHP or whatever). Although it all sounds tempting, it wouldn't be something completely new.

Hm, a big disk is a no-no. Motherboard is old, disks cost money. I don't know what sizes it would support. Currently it's about 6GB I think, so 4GB would be available for data.
Also, for most media files, traffic is a problem. I must stay around 1GB per month to external IPs, and most of my friends are external...
I'm also not sure wether they'd use it.
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Unread 21 Mar 2005, 14:54   #25
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Arrow Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
I had ideas about a PA-like game but with a interface a lá Imperium Galactica 2 but without the ground battle stuff and having multiple planets. I believe someone still has in his sig "make Structural creator because he'll make PA 3D". This all was written in some ancient post on the PD forums.

*search* *search*
Here it is.

Now that I'm searching the PD forums, I notice I made a lot of posts there concerning the concept of PA and tick-based browser games. I never thought I posted that much drivel.

Anyway...

if you want to push down bandwidth and don't have the time/knowledge to make a client, consider using frames and CSS in an external file.
That's great, so I finally know where this quote in the signature originates from

I couldn't be bothered to make a classical browser-based game. I hate that.
I know of all the advantages, logging in everywhere you are, platform compatibility, and so on.
I still don't like it.
I'd make a client. Or at least design a nice protocol for the game, highly specialized, customized and compressed (not this shitty <html> overhead).
If people were to use my client, fine. If not, they could develop their own (java, or even php, whatever). My server would just be the game-backend.

Still talking about the simplest games / concepts possible here. I know all of this takes ages, especially for me.
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Unread 21 Mar 2005, 14:58   #26
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetLinus
P.S.: Good example: In my house there is a nice service. You can schedule which TV programs to record, and there is a server which will do it for you fully automatically. You can then download the generated AVI-files from it.
This is a bit too much for 200mhz obviously, and it's done already anyway. But this is the kind of "invention" I'm looking for...
not exactly on the topic, but:
i just heared about a service on the internet where you can do exactly that (you are german, aren't you? heres the link http://eins-live.de/daswort/derservi...er/index.phtml ). apparently its fully legal and they some day will make real money with it. if only i would have ideas
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Unread 21 Mar 2005, 14:59   #27
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Arrow Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
They'd have to be floating in mid-air outside the office window to pull that one off
Monitors faced toward walls or windows on workplaces ROCK . I got that lucky feeling at my job. Just like this rule for any computing / informatics classes: You gotta sit in the last row!




Well, I thought about Skiddy's idea, and it's not too bad. I've got some sort of MP3 collection (not even from me), that'd be worth sharing. So my idea is something like this:

Let the server keep an index (just a dir *.mp3 /s >mp3list.txt output really) of all the files I want to share. The server gets a 3GB cache implemented.
If someone requests something, the server will connect to my real working computer with it's hundreds-GB-storage. There sits a tiny application / service, that supplies whatever is wanted.

The nice thing: My old pentium server could support wake-on-lan. If a file is requested that isn't there, my real PC will be booted. Then accessed. Then after a time of lets say 20minutes shut down again (or set to hybernate). PowerOff is a really nice tool for that.

As I said, forwarding Wake-on-LAN-requests will still be one of the main tasks this server has to do.



Edit: Hey, I could even include a little send-mail. So the server wouldn't start my pc and possibly wake me up at night. Or it wouldn't start the thing at all, and just wait until I do so anyway.
Then the requested mp3 would be send by mail.

Although this sucks if you want a song right now.
But still, I could include priority, and privileged users could for the boot up the pc to get the song now.
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Unread 21 Mar 2005, 21:20   #28
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

I know it's not what you really want to do, but for future reference look at this site.
That's the distribution of linux I use on the router machine - it's designed to do that and that only, and includes all sorts of useful tools in a handy web frontend so you don't need a monitor or keyboard connected after the install. It doesn't have a compiler, which makes it a bit of a pain to make alterations yourself, but if you have access to another machine with the 2.4 kernel you can do static compiles of whatever you want to add and it should work - I added a SOCKS proxy to mine for example.
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Unread 25 Mar 2005, 14:21   #29
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Arrow Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Ok, this IPcop really looks great.

I've changed my mind slightly for now. I found out that uni-network actually uses 100mbit. But my SOHO-hardware-router only has a 10mbit WAN-port.
For various services (like DirectConnect), I'd like to use the 100mbit speed.

Looking around for a SOHO-router below 100 euro, I didn't really find one satisfying my needs (even if they have a 100mbit WAN port, often the chip inside only handles up to 30mbits throughput or so).



So, a whole new motivation would be to just get a 100mbit router.
Question: Can IPCop do that with a Pentium 200 and 32MB RAM?

What about Fli4l? Is it better performance-wise?
Megla, what is your maximum throughput? And your hardware?
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Unread 25 Mar 2005, 14:33   #30
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

JetLinus:
Hardware is P200, 64MB RAM, 2 100-mbit network cards and an old 2gb harddrive.

Max throughput is limited as I'm using it to route the internet connection to my home network, so it never goes over 2Mbit.
How come you need a router in your uni room?
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Unread 25 Mar 2005, 15:56   #31
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Arrow Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

2 devices: my computer + my VoIP telephone.
My PC isn't on all the time.

Also for security reasons, it's just nice to have a "firewall that you can never disable by accident".
But I'd give that up for the increased speed...


And if someone comes by with a laptop, it's additional comfort if he can access the internet from my room...
Also occasionally someone will drop by their broken computer, and I'll have to fix it (windows updates etc, --> internet).
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Unread 25 Mar 2005, 16:22   #32
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

I just closed my browser window before clicking "reply", but what I wanted to say was that you should look into the game "Konquerer". We played that during the Linux lessons at school. Redhat 6 I believe. Pretty simple and stuff. Make a multiplayer version and be rich*.


* perhaps not.
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Unread 25 Mar 2005, 19:39   #33
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Arrow Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Couldn't find anything about a game called "Konquerer", possibly because there's this linux-browser called "Konqueror". What's that game about? Any link? Is it cool? And simple? Great ;-)

I think I'll have to try how good the IPCop-Linux-Routing works, and then decide if it's good enough...
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Unread 25 Mar 2005, 20:14   #34
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Or was it Konquest...

*search*

yes... sorry about that... it was Konquest. I was rather in a hurry when I posted that so I didn't check it.
Anyway: Screenie

It's a turn based strategy game with which you can conquer planets. Only one ship type, battle reports in a messagebox in the form "Player A attacked planet N or player B and lost X ships".
perhaps there's a Windows version you can check out.
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Unread 31 Mar 2005, 18:52   #35
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetLinus
So, a whole new motivation would be to just get a 100mbit router.
Can IPCop do that with a Pentium 200 and 32MB RAM?
if you are going to simply forward packets at full (100mbit) speed between 2 ifaces, you should have no problems with that one, but you should better check mainboard specs of that pentium box to see if it allows data transfer rates at 12.5 mb/s... if it doesn't allow that speed, you will be limited by hardware i have some old hp servers (dual pentium pro @ 200, 512mb edo ram, scsi hdd racks...), and i have troubles running router + firewall at speeds over 15 mbit/s... i dont think it is "human factor" in question, because these 2 are working @ full speed (100mbit) on decent hardware... dont be disappointed, this is just my personal experience, you might get lucky, but - take a note - packet filtering is NOT piece of cake for such an old box.

Generally speaking, i was running gentoo linux on amd k5 @ 99mhz, 16 mb edo ram, and 80gb (?!) 7200 rpm harddisk drive
One might ask why i put such a big disk on that piece-of-crap pc - that doesn't matter... bios on that mobo supports hdds up to 8.5 gb, so what i did is: connected empty hdd on that box, bios saw only first 8.5 gigs, i booted into msdos, where i created partition of maximal size that bios saw. next, i booted from gentoo cd, and using fdisk partitioned rest of disk space as one big, primary partition... you got the point.

my opinion is that such an old boxes could/should be used as:

1. low speed/traffic routers
2. web development/database servers
3. *nix shells
4. i/o controllers for some external hardware connected over rs232 port (surveillance hardware sensors, enviromental sensors...)
5. Open Source Linux PBX box (look @ http://www.asterisk.org/) or simply a box with isa 33.6k modem that does caller identification, lookup of caller's name in internal phone book and displaying his/her name all over the b/w monitor attached to box maybe you could find some old pci vga card with tv output, so you could display caller's name on your tv as overlay :P
6. ... should i put more items in here?

well, just be creative... use your imagination, watch few sf movies, and you will get an idea

gl + hf!!
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Unread 31 Mar 2005, 20:09   #36
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Re: What kind of "special server" with a P200?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
Or was it Konquest...

*search*

yes... sorry about that... it was Konquest. I was rather in a hurry when I posted that so I didn't check it.
Anyway: Screenie

It's a turn based strategy game with which you can conquer planets. Only one ship type, battle reports in a messagebox in the form "Player A attacked planet N or player B and lost X ships".
perhaps there's a Windows version you can check out.
There's a 'solar wars' game out there somewhere (haven't been able to find it again, google is not being kind to me) That deals in a similar manner, you have ships and bombs, you can capture planets with ships and completely destroy all ships on the planet with the bombs, if I remember corectly.

All planets orbit a star and actaully have orbits, so timing your attacks can be a major advantage
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