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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 18:49   #51
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Terran de army or roiding xans (roiding what is perceived as the #1 race is always good) with bs (unless they go for shadows) extremely easily. Xan will have speed and power yeah, I'd nerf their armour probably a bit more than it is, maybe downgrade some other efficiencies but I think this is how xan should look. Intuitively the stats make sense to me in terms of the races and how they were conceptualised.

Terran always struggle to get a big enough fleet to smash anyone cos they tend to set upon by the xans very early.
I do kinda like the stats (going back to basics) but the reason kill ships were added for zik and cath and terran iniatives where lowered was because the conceptualised versions didnīt really work in practise
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 18:52   #52
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Terran de army or roiding xans (roiding what is perceived as the #1 race is always good) with bs (unless they go for shadows) extremely easily. Xan will have speed and power yeah, I'd nerf their armour probably a bit more than it is, maybe downgrade some other efficiencies but I think this is how xan should look. Intuitively the stats make sense to me in terms of the races and how they were conceptualised.
Terran De with Pulsars at 450 d/c sounds suicidal. Bs isn't worth it if the target has Shadows.

The stats make intuitively sense, because they are like they have been most of the time. That's boring.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 18:53   #53
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Zoro View Post
Terran always struggle to get a big enough fleet to smash anyone cos they tend to set upon by the xans very early.
I do kinda like the stats (going back to basics) but the reason kill ships were added for zik and cath and terran iniatives where lowered was because the conceptualised versions didnīt really work in practise

Cath still have kill ships. Zik kill ships were added because idiots wanted to play zik without bothering to work out how to actually play the race. Terran inits were low last round and nobody really wanted to play them then. Stats are far more about cohesion and natural appeal than some sort of retarded attempt to hammer square pegs into round holes. Then you just get butchered stats nobody wants to play.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 18:57   #54
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
Terran De with Pulsars at 450 d/c sounds suicidal. Bs isn't worth it if the target has Shadows.
As I said I'm willing to amend efficiencies for xan. Regardless having your entire fleet in one ship class is a massive advantage that simply won't be negated by the existence of one ship targetting it.

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The stats make intuitively sense, because they are like they have been most of the time. That's boring.
I don't think I've ever seen xan with fi and co class pods or etd with only fr/de ships but okay. People actually want to play particular ways because they have favourite races and favourite styles of play.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 22:39   #55
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I would have liked more ships instead of less, or at least the same amount. Since i think it's a skill to make a GOOD fleet-composition. But with these low amount of ships, everyone will have the same fleets. Doesnt make it more fun for me tbh, since i love analysing stats. Pre-round is like the most fun to me. Don't take it away!

(they do look balanced though, but i havent checked really good)
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 22:52   #56
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Having more ships and three pod-classes certainly makes things more interesting...however, we need to consider new players, and the 'ease of use' if we're to increase the playerbase--and once hooked, keep them.

A dozen ships per race is sort of counter-productive in that regard. What we need to do is keep it simple, but not so much as to (further) erode the existing player base.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 22:58   #57
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Making it that simple spoils the fun for me tbh. You Rather get new players to the game and loose the already addicted ones?

You have to agree that there is like only a few fleetcompositions possible with these stats. Tbh, that is one of my skills becomming useless now. Not very funny :P

I was just wondering if I was the only one NOT being amused with less ships...
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 23:19   #58
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Certainly not, I've heard plenty of positive comments about the 3-pod system.

I also do NOT want a situation where we lose existing customers in an attempt (which is what the next few rounds are going to amount to) to gain new ones. I've played since early 2001, but I also understand the need of expanding the player base.

It's a very fine line between making a fun game for the hardcore players, and game the newbie can pick up, play, and keep playing. I've seen several attempts tried (and failed), but all I (and PA Team) can do is try to find some sort of balance.

It may sway towards the hardcore one round, then towards the newbie the other. I would just hope that long-time customers would appreciate that a larger universe is good for everyone, and without trying different things, simply won't ever happen.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 00:13   #59
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by BaasB View Post
You have to agree that there is like only a few fleetcompositions possible with these stats. Tbh, that is one of my skills becomming useless now. Not very funny :P
If you want to mix and match different fleet compositions then go Zik. That's what they're there for.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 07:34   #60
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Re: R32 Shipstats

How about making Terrans a simple race with few different ships then?
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 07:54   #61
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by BaasB View Post
Making it that simple spoils the fun for me tbh. You Rather get new players to the game and loose the already addicted ones?

You have to agree that there is like only a few fleetcompositions possible with these stats. Tbh, that is one of my skills becomming useless now. Not very funny :P

I was just wondering if I was the only one NOT being amused with less ships...
It's the same for me, simple stats like this one take away most the fun and a lot of the play out of a round. Less options to make a difference DCing well or picking your targets well. A large universe is pointless if the game is dumbed down so much its not fun anymore.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 08:36   #62
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
It's the same for me, simple stats like this one take away most the fun and a lot of the play out of a round. Less options to make a difference DCing well or picking your targets well. A large universe is pointless if the game is dumbed down so much its not fun anymore.
+1

I can look at stats for hours and hours trying to find the "best" combination of fleets. Having perfectly balanced sets would pretty much mean there is no "best" fleet, which isn't as much fun imo. Not saying we shouldn't pursue to balance shipstats, not at all (after all, the more balanced they are the longer i have to look to find a weakness ), but making it as simple as JBG's set is overkill imo.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 08:59   #63
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by BaasB View Post
I would have liked more ships instead of less, or at least the same amount. Since i think it's a skill to make a GOOD fleet-composition. But with these low amount of ships, everyone will have the same fleets. Doesnt make it more fun for me tbh, since i love analysing stats. Pre-round is like the most fun to me. Don't take it away!

(they do look balanced though, but i havent checked really good)
I fully agree that more ships and the complexity that brings is a pretty cool thing. I'm the one who added more ships during the last few rounds and then the extra pods for r30 yo

As I said initially it's a simple, classic approach. Hopefully it'd make more sense to new and less active players and draw them into the game more.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 09:47   #64
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Good to see this thread come alive with a spirited debate about stats and other submissions. JBGs looks short and simple and to the point, I would like to see it fleshed out a bit more but good start.

Just straight into my usual tirades, I'll begin tonights' rant with EMP:

I don't much understand the current EMP formula other than it works but designing a set of stats around it and trying to predict effect can be an exercise in futility. Whereas with a NORM ship it may be desirable to concentrate T1 targeting on the heavier ship class in the sequence, following to lighter classes to distribute the most damage evenly with the diminishing effect of the targeting system. However, with an EMP ship, the effects can very wildly unless compensating the differences in cost between classes comes into consideration for adopting firing sequence. Therefore, the EMP class ship should first fire at the lightest class in the sequence.

The stick in the wheel comes with E/R providing a means of compensating against EMP to allow greater or lesser effect to a particular ship in question. Perhaps rather than relying on EMP gun count, treat the weapon as singular gun with damage calculated similar to normal damage, but allow the E/R variable to function as a damage modifier. In the current system a ship with four guns would disable four ships with a modifier of zero regardless of the relation of cost between the classes. Therefore, even by reducing the effect at T2 to sixty percent, the resulting effect on a heavier class may exceed in ship value the effected value of the T1 targeted class.

I'm not nearly the mathematician to prepare a new EMP formula to propose other than recognize their is something fundamentally wrong with the current one. My general rule of thumb is to reduce the number of ships utilizing EMP and to stagger the inits of such ships as such that any suitable defensive postures utilizing EMP ships on both sides can partially disable other EMP ships before they fire, in other words not everything should simply be lumped into init 1 or init 2 in the firing order. Honoring the complexities of gun numbers, firing orders, and E/R is a loathsome duty.

On to other subjects, a few other principals of stat design that I would suggest. Defense ships (by this I mean the classes of ships given to race without a pod) should be designed to have a "trump" effect upon attacking pod classes of the same race. Therefore, counter the other classes given with pods by giving the defense ship a lower init and other advantages as necessary (ie. higher A/C and D/C). Not always applicable when trying to balance the overall power of a given race, but the scenario I would highlight is that ZIK defense ships should have a lower priority steal than ZIK offensive ships, or that CATH defense ships should have a lower priority EMP than CATH offensive ships.

Anyways, I polished up my original stat submission and created a second variance to accommodate the feedback about light class dominance being less desirable in the immediate future... ala next round.

My original proposal, tweaked, and what I'd call variant 1 or variant 424: ('424' denotes 4 light/2 medium/4 heavy roiding options)
hxxp://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rwff6DHHEnOcMmg1-a12EAA

My alternative proposal, CATH changed to FR/CR offense, ZIK changed to DE defense, thus variant 2 or variant 334:
hxxp://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=r_2Yqn_cRkF6FXG1S11fmMg

I'd go as far as to say that I'm 97% happy with the balance other than fine tuning EMP spec with a suitably programmed bcalc debugger.

Needless to say, if you want to view it copy and paste and change hxxp: to http:, maybe one day my post count will be high enough to post without all the mess. You probably heard enough... so I'll stop my ramblings here for tonight.

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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 09:48   #65
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I like those stats they are ideal for someone new to the game as they follow the KISS principle , ps i meant jbg's so there's no confusion
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 10:16   #66
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I really do not agree with the idea of dumbing the game down to the extent that JBG's set do. While i do agree that new/semi active players need to have something of a nub proof mechanism in order to make the game playable for them, i am of the opinion that this can be achieved without rendering the entire stat set idiot proof.

At fire glance, JBG's set appear to reduce a multitude of playing paths to little more than a value race. I feel that in an attempt to make the game more playable and attractive, which i commend, creativity, individuality and subtlety are being sacrificed for blunt playability. In the end, i believe the game will be cutting off its nose to spite its face. For the most part, current players will, i believe, find the game far less attractive and leave as a result. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

While i do agree that many other stat sets we have seen recently, have enough ships to comfuse players, i believe this adds to the diversity of fleets (aswell as effectiveness pitfalls), which then adds to the diversity of the game. This is something PA benefits from. Sacrificing it, imo, is not a good idea.

I believe a more ideal way to make the game playable for newcomers would be to make a default race, with fleet stats which are more forgiving with regards to learning the game. Ideally this would be terran with its high armour/salvage rate. Ter Fleets could be designed to survive long enough for a player to understand the concepts of initiative/efficiencies, while allowing them to gain score and ranks with the help of XP, untill they understand the concept and importance of value play.

Providing a beginners race to learn the ropes, while still allowing experienced players to be creative with game mechanics, i believe, the ideal situation. Imo, we shouldnt be making all races user friendly as is the case currently, but i would definately like to see at least one race simple and forgiving for newcomers.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 11:31   #67
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Providing a default race is all well and good but as with the cat being ridiculously overpowered this round, your idea for the default race could have the same effect , we need a large influx of new blood so the current player base needs to accept this and adapt their playing style accordingly if this means simple stats then we need to accept this if it means we get more people playing the game
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 11:52   #68
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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In the end, i believe the game will be cutting off its nose to spite its face. For the most part, current players will, i believe, find the game far less attractive and leave as a result

I don't think so. The general playability of the game is much more than a major factor. Even if existing player will leave due to a shitty stat set. Not many stat could exceed the horrendous / unbalance /boringness of the round 31 one, so they already left by now already if that theory is true.

A straight-forward stat set like this will attract new player, attract old players to come back and make current ones to stay. Especially if we'll get rid of ETD - a race that is absolutely lost in space and have no personality. Balance and exciting combo is the key to make it "attactive", not the complexity of having many choices.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 11:58   #69
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Re: R32 Shipstats

/me casts her mind back to the round 31 shipstats thread...

Havent we learnt nothing, open debate and random suggestions from random people.. solves absolutly nothing, it actually made one of the worst set of stats ever.

JBG is good at making stats and i think if push came to shove, the active PA community would trust him to make a set of stats above everyone else. So, lets for once.. let someone make the set of stats how they want and on how they see balance...

I mean, reading some of the replys in this thread just makes me want to cry "o these stats are too simple, it ruins the fun".. No, simple does not ruin the fun.. crap stats ruin the fun like this round.

/me votes for letting JBG design them and only JBG. Quiet frankly, the community showed last round that they are crap when it comes to collectively making stats.

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I fully agree that more ships and the complexity that brings is a pretty cool thing. I'm the one who added more ships during the last few rounds and then the extra pods for r30 yo

As I said initially it's a simple, classic approach. Hopefully it'd make more sense to new and less active players and draw them into the game more.
and thats exactly what you want from a set of stats. More complexity is crap if it means you cant balance the fleets properly, we had more complexity this round? yet 99% of people went Fi/Co. Give me a set of stats with 4 pod fleets each, with each Class and each Race not only being viable but actually being good, then i'd agree with the community that complexity is better.. Unfortunatly, its hard enough to balance each 1 with 1 podding fleet.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 12:15   #70
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Re: R32 Shipstats

At this point the stats should be in beta ironing out any kinks , as light said jbg is good at getting the balance right with the stats , rd 30 was a great rd as the stats were the best we've had in a long time
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 12:25   #71
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin] View Post
While i do agree that many other stat sets we have seen recently, have enough ships to comfuse players, i believe this adds to the diversity of fleets (aswell as effectiveness pitfalls), which then adds to the diversity of the game. This is something PA benefits from. Sacrificing it, imo, is not a good idea.
What are you talking about here? Are we even talking about the same game now?

Please tell me where the diversity was this round? like 99% of the universe was Fi/Co and it will always be that way, some people analyse the stats.. say which class is the best for which race, and then everyone else follows that analysis.

The only diversity we get, is nubs making the wrong/weaker ships.. Which isnt something to be proud off if it means they get more incs due to it.

Quote:
I believe a more ideal way to make the game playable for newcomers would be to make a default race, with fleet stats which are more forgiving with regards to learning the game. Ideally this would be terran with its high armour/salvage rate. Ter Fleets could be designed to survive long enough for a player to understand the concepts of initiative/efficiencies, while allowing them to gain score and ranks with the help of XP, untill they understand the concept and importance of value play.
New players wont pick the default race, new players will always tend to go towards Cloak or Steal as they seem as if they would be more fun

and then we have the situation of, how do we make this a default race playable?

If you give Terran high armor an high salvage? designed for complete value play? why wouldnt everyone go them



As i said before. Stop the discussion, its pointless.. just put JBG's original stats into the beta and lets go.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 12:28   #72
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Light
then i'd agree with the community that complexity is better..
Complexity IS better. Last round's stats were more or less complex, except for the 'simple' fact that Cat Fi was too strong. r30's stats were complex AND quite balanced, and I'd rather go back to those 'complex' stats than use the 'basic' set JBG proposed.

You shouldn't dismiss complexity just because it's too hard to balance.

Also, discussing things on forums does solve things, as long as you don't listen to every idiot's suggestions.

edit: With better, I mean for me, not necessarily for newer players. I like the idea to keep Terran basic and simple to play, though, as the 'standard' newb race.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 12:35   #73
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Re: R32 Shipstats

But the stats shouldnt be about what you or i want patrikc they should be designed with new players in mind because we have to think long term for the game and simple stats sets will help , complex stats will not encourage new or returnin players to sign up
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 13:13   #74
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Complexity IS better.
Generally it is. But "not" if you would still hope for more than 800-1k true playerbase.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 13:13   #75
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Could anyone explain how 'simple' stats will magically make new players join the game?
First of all are you assuming all new players are stupid?
second do you really think it matters for a new player wether he randomly picks a few ships so he targets all classes but is 20-30% less effective than the best combo out there or wether we have 'simple' stats where everyone builds the same combo's. Is he gonna get bashed a whole lot less just because he has the same fleet as everyone else, only less of it because of lower activity and no ally support?

Last round was the first round of this game for me and tbh shipstats already seemed a bit simple back then, but the 3 roider types looked interesting. However the decision to start playing the game overal wasnt that effected by how 'simple' the shipstats were, but much more by the rest of the game, what other features there were, how the community was, who else was playing etc.

I can't imagine that there would be anyone who wants to start playing the game but doesnt because shipstats are too complicated.
And its even harder to imagine that someone who would normally not play the game, would start playing because there are simple shipstats.

Personally I'd actually think that more complex shipstats bring in more players, not only because people think the game is fun and a challenge, but also because shipstats does effect how the round is played. If shipstats are so dumbed down that options are extremely limited it simply becomes a matter of who has the highest value fleet. Races wont have holes that others can exploit, no weakness or choice to be bad vs 1 shipclass but great vs another. You just need to have more value and a bigger fleet to be able to land, which would drive people to hitting lower value targets and those are often the new players.

I think eventually this is about what kind of game PA wants to be, does it want to cater to the masses, make it really easy to play and understand like travian for example but without any real depth, or does it want to keep the current type of players and simply attract more of those?
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 13:28   #76
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Could anyone explain how 'simple' stats will magically make new players join the game?
First of all are you assuming all new players are stupid?
The set isn't black and white simple. I would clasify it as balanced, exciting but straight-forward.

No. Stupid is too harsh. But a fairly complex stat is like the biggest brick in the game mechanics that'll be too heavy for them to digest in one go.

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or does it want to keep the current type of players and simply attract more of those?
With an exciting, balanced but straight-forward set of stats. It "could help" a bit to achieve just that.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 13:32   #77
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Re: R32 Shipstats

There are a number of points to address in your post Shhhhhhh.

1) You are quite right, simple stats won't make people join the game. However for the newbie/inactive player is much more likely to a) get it right and b) understand why he got it right with simpler stats.

2) In reality he will be similarly immune to everyone else. But what you will see is that the straightforwardness of defence (there are a few x ship obviously trumps y ship combinations) means that the benefits of being involved with other players either via higher gal activity or an alliance are more obvious.

3) You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't you join as part of that saints bg? That's not really a natural growth outlet.

4) More complex stats are awesome for their depth but newer and less active players don't pay attention to more complex stats. They just get bored and uninterested. Also there are plenty of "holes" in these stats, far more so than with higher numbers of ships which invariably drives up the need for teamups.

5) I would agree, this represents a different type of move to the ones that have happened in PA recently. To be honest though I've been involved in a lot of those moves and while they've offered some fairly minimal benefits I would think of these stats as offering a different kind of potential benefit. The numbers and swing will probably be low either way, I sincerely doubt you'll see lots of people quitting over these stats. I think one of the few things that could make people quit in numbers is if we had something similar to last round where cath fi was so horrifically overpowered it disrupted the entire flow of the game.


Finally there's not a huge amount that can be done at this point. I had a few ideas back in r30 for different things for the stats and the only one I got was the extra pod because it required no coding. But there's only so much you can do with that and with the extra pod more potential combinations are used each round leaving less room for what is perceived as variation in following rounds.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 14:09   #78
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I joined in the saints bg yes, but don't quite a few people join the game like that? being recruited by others who are playing.
But ofcourse it will be different if you already have a group to play with, compared to just seeing the site and sign up. Tho my opinion on the shipstats would be the same either way

I do think you guys are focusing a bit too much on this whole new player thing and forget how it will effect current players and how it will effect gameplay of next round. Since in the end a much more important part of getting and keeping new players will be gameplay itself, not how difficult or easy the stats are to understand.

But anyway, I might just be negative because these stats are incredibly boring to analyze and pick a nice combo with. And thats the most fun part of the round for me. And I think a game where superiour fleet choice in an alliance or in a bp pays off is nicer to play, so its not just about activity and who has more fleets.
However if there's one thing i learned in this Pa round is that not everyone thinks like me so maybe other new players will appreciate it. Tho I still wish another option was taken which doesnt effect gameplay of the non newbs as much, as mentioned earlier 1 simple race or something like that.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 14:16   #79
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Re: R32 Shipstats

The 1 simple race thing is largely wishful thinking as races depend as much on interaction with the other races as anything else.

A few people do join the game like that. As I said though it's not a natural growth outlet, that growth is far more dependent on what your group decides to do than anything intrinsically related to PA itself.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 14:26   #80
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
But the stats shouldnt be about what you or i want patrikc they should be designed with new players in mind because we have to think long term for the game and simple stats sets will help , complex stats will not encourage new or returnin players to sign up
Why shouldn't it be about what I want? I'm paying for this game too... And I think shipstats are far from the first thing that needs to be changed to gain new players.
I also think a (small but informative) guide next to/below the Shipstats on how they work, and on different strategies, would do more than enough for new players to understand it (though I wonder if PATeam still knows there's a thing called a "Manual")

Shipstats and different strategies it brings is, for me, the only reason I actually play the game (instead of just hanging on IRC making sexjokes with HK!)
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 14:42   #81
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Re: R32 Shipstats

why not have jbgīs set for exampel and add a third podclass and 2 ships to etd (bs) + some more ships to zik, so they can in theory play and steal with every class

that way we could have 3 "simple" races with ter,cat,xan
and 2 "pro" races with etd and zik

so no one would miss anything, ppl liking it complicated and aiming for more ways to play their race can go zik or etd

and the "i want have everything covered with max 4 ships" play the "simple" races


apart from that, something directed at jbg himself:
what about this ? (changes in brackets)

(Arrowhead Fi 4 Cloak Fi Co 250 350)
Lancer Fr 6 (Norm) Fi (-) 400 (480)
Defender Fr 1 EMP (Fr) Co 450

Guardian Fr 2 EMP Bs Cr 450
Tycoon De 21 Steal De Fr 480 500
Devastator De 7 Norm Cr Bs 500 320
Merchant Fr Pod
Vulture De Pod

adds a fast alliance defence ship which can be faked, works good against xan fi combo, as it wont let land the xans for free, however its supposed to be a paper ship but firing same time then xan fi and therefore a good weapon against xan fi fleets (which are very strong naturally)

imo it would improve Etd makin the race more interesting to play, as the past shows ppl will avoid races without a fast alliance def ship
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 14:43   #82
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Re: R32 Shipstats

There's pretty much no way anyone could write a "small but informative guide" on the stats that would be both easily comprehensible to new players and comprehensive in its coverage.

I really feel you've over-stating how little room for debate this leaves though patrikc. There are still 5 races and 8 entirely different potential fleet combinations with variations present in quite a few of those. Realistically last round had fewer genuinely viable options than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US
why not have jbgīs set for exampel and add a third podclass and 2 ships to etd (bs) + some more ships to zik, so they can in theory play and steal with every class
Zik can steal with every class bar one, which they couldn't steal with last round anyways.

Quote:
and the "i want have everything covered with max 4 ships" play the "simple" races
People do that now. The only question is which 3/4 ships do you go for.

To be honest I'm okay with people ignoring etd. If everyone avoided etd it'd be great. I don't think they're particularly weak versus anything though so no I wouldn't change them.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 14:54   #83
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
The 1 simple race thing is largely wishful thinking as races depend as much on interaction with the other races as anything else.

A few people do join the game like that. As I said though it's not a natural growth outlet, that growth is far more dependent on what your group decides to do than anything intrinsically related to PA itself.
Maybe a bit off topic, but not really, I wasnt part of the 'saints group' untill this round of Pa, so my decision to play was mostly based on the game itself and if i thought it would be fun, plus if i thought the saints guys would suck or not.

A simple race imo, would be a race where you cant really go wrong with what to build, maybe 2 options for anti fi/co anti fr/de and anti cr/bs, all performing average against other races.
Anyway, since it seems like both sets of stats arent done yet, it might be pointless to argue about which one would be preffered and better for the game, but it's more about which ones will be done in time
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 14:58   #84
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I am very happy that the new stats seem to generally have been agreed upon that it will only have 2 roidertypes for each race, and hope that everyone understands that it will make fleet compositions easier for new players (and for morons like me who really cba depth devling into the mathematics of an attack)
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 15:15   #85
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Shipstats and different strategies it brings is, for me, the only reason I actually play the game (instead of just hanging on IRC making sexjokes with HK!)
May i ask what 'different strategy' you went this round?
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 15:15   #86
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I really feel you've over-stating how little room for debate this leaves though patrikc. There are still 5 races and 8 entirely different potential fleet combinations with variations present in quite a few of those. Realistically last round had fewer genuinely viable options than that.

You're right, the stats you've made aren't that basic as I might've implied (they've improved a lot since the first set, btw!), but it just looks so empty with so few ships.
This 'discussion' got me very interested though how such "simple" stats would affect a round, enough to be willing to try 'em out. You can't really judge a set untill after it's been used (unfortunately)... I just fear it'll be like last round, wasting another 7 weeks on shitty shipstats.

Quote:
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May i ask what 'different strategy' you went this round?
Xan Fr first week to hit Zik/Etd, Fi/Co after most of them got Cr.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 15:28   #87
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
May i ask what 'different strategy' you went this round?
ETD with mostly broads and some Fireblade/Paladin for attacking and Lancers for defending.
Lancers imo were nicest vs the fi/co fleets and they did work out rather nice.
while broads were great vs BS/CR incoming.
Since my bg and bp all went xan, this fleet fit in perfectly with them, wraith+broadswords were good for attacking and for defending plus took away part of the xan weakness vs BS. And lancers fit in well with the xan co fleets to defend vs fi/co inc. Plus all important ships are still cloaked, so nice faking.

I know this wasnt asked to me, but just trying to show some people do think of shipstats a bit more and try to design their fleets and one example of it.

Besides that I kinda agree with Patrikc, while I think it might suck it will be interesting to see how such a small amount of ships will effect the round.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 15:37   #88
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
You can't really judge a set untill after it's been used (unfortunately)... I just fear it'll be like last round, wasting another 7 weeks on shitty shipstats.
Luckily I have enough self-belief that the idea of my ship stats being as bad as last round's is pretty much inconceivable to me.


I did a slightly different variation below that I think should deal with the overpowered xan concerns.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...xg&output=html
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 15:41   #89
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Re: R32 Shipstats

What kind of EMP efficiency can we expect? since thats not done yet :P
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 15:46   #90
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
What kind of EMP efficiency can we expect? since thats not done yet :P
Emp efficiencies will range from 140-160%, so slightly below this round's levels with terran being harder to emp, xan being easier.

Edit: Recheck it there, forgot to save it after my last change. Also added likely targets for each race (particularly as I'd noticed nobody had commented on the fact xan can actually roid xan).
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Last edited by JonnyBGood; 15 Jun 2009 at 16:02.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 16:13   #91
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Emp efficiencies will range from 140-160%, so slightly below this round's levels with terran being harder to emp, xan being easier.

Edit: Recheck it there, forgot to save it after my last change. Also added likely targets for each race (particularly as I'd noticed nobody had commented on the fact xan can actually roid xan).
With same efficiency to T1 and T2 like last round?
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 16:17   #92
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
With same efficiency to T1 and T2 like last round?
The efficiencies will be entirely determined on how I think each ship should be affected. When everything is the same pattern, as in it's all fi/co and not a bit of fi/co and a bit of co/fi targetting you don't have any constraints on how you deal with efficiency.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 17:26   #93
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
(particularly as I'd noticed nobody had commented on the fact xan can actually roid xan).
In the first set Xan Co owned all, with the Revenant targeting fi/co. Now however they have quite a big hole in Co, which means Cat Co can Roid them, as well as Xan Co. Which is 2 steps back, but at the same time one forward. A good change imo.

I do wonder though, would/should Xans focus on Fi, Co, or split more or less evenly?
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 17:43   #94
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
I do wonder though, would/should Xans focus on Fi, Co, or split more or less evenly?
I think this is a strategic choice everybody will have to make for himself. I.m.o. if you go all fighters, you end up with a shitty attack fleet that still will get roided by Co.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 19:38   #95
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Going with complicated stats is all well and good but they are very very difficult to test. As shown in this round.

Starting afresh with entirely new complicated stats will mean that we probably WILL have inbalance somewhere.

With JBG's stats we have a good base to start with. If they are successful in r32 (and hopefully new people join) then they can be tweaked and improved a small amount each round. We don't need a massive overhaul of stats every single round. Changing slightly to re-balance and re-emphasise is a much better approach.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 21:32   #96
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Going with complicated stats is all well and good but they are very very difficult to test. As shown in this round.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if there's anything to blame for last round's stats it's the lack of time Gate put in finishing them.
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Unread 16 Jun 2009, 07:04   #97
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Re: R32 Shipstats

Time isn't the issue with Gate, the fact that he doesn't really have a good perception towards what is needed by this community is. The person that's making the stats musn't always think about all the fleets being balanced, attracting new players while keeping the old player group entertained should be the main priority here. Last round didn't achieve either of those. :/

I think the stats JBG made are pretty alright with a bit of tweaking, because the relatively small number of ships will make it easier on the newbies.
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Unread 16 Jun 2009, 09:10   #98
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Re: R32 Shipstats

I think that if Gate spent 3-4 hours testing, calcing things and working out efficiencies that there's a good possibilty he'd have changed the Beetle (amongst other things). The way resources were spread (although it's not a priority) shows that he had too few time available to put in.

Whether or not he's capable of making good stats I don't know, as far as I know this is the first set of his I've used, and they could have been decent, if not pretty good.
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Unread 16 Jun 2009, 09:22   #99
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Re: R32 Shipstats

The resources issue is another ball-game completly. Iirc, he was told about those and replied that they really don't matter. That doesn't look like lack of time, but lack of commitment or just plain pure incompetence.
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Unread 16 Jun 2009, 10:05   #100
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Re: R32 Shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Luckily I have enough self-belief that the idea of my ship stats being as bad as last round's is pretty much inconceivable to me.


I did a slightly different variation below that I think should deal with the overpowered xan concerns.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...xg&output=html

I really like em.
Even as simple as they look there are still many fleet comosition decisions and endless team up combinations. I think getting a set of stats like this will be a good landing stage for more complex versions that some people seem to crave.
I view the ship stats as similar to chess. In chess you have 6 different piece types. You can teach someone how to move the pieces within 5 mins and thus they can play. You can play chess and have fun without really knowing much.
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