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Unread 28 Jun 2003, 18:49   #1
Kåre Willoch
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Democracy

Well, is it just me, or is the US definition of democracy a bit odd ?
(Local elections in Iraq have been stopped, because the wrong guys would win....)

So then the "coalition" puts some puppets in charge, as they were afraid former Baath party officials and even worse, Islamists, would win.

Interestingly enough this denial of democracy goes far back. In Vietnam, the elections were stopped in the 1950s because leaders who were not puppets were about to win.

But surely we'll see a few americans ranting even in this thread about how Iraq was freed from evil, and so on. They might as well piss against the wind :P
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Unread 28 Jun 2003, 18:54   #2
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It'd be unfair to presume that Iraqi's are ready for democracy yet.

They need to be exposed to a fair, balanced, liberal media (like in the United States) owned preferably by a rich elite (the rich have more invested in society and therefore are more likely to make sensible decisions - they also work harder and generate more wealth thus it's fair their interests and values dominate society).
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Unread 28 Jun 2003, 18:56   #3
Kåre Willoch
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hehe good one
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Originally posted by Vaio
I wouldnt want to put anyone off getting married, it is a wonderful thing (for other people !)
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Unread 28 Jun 2003, 19:11   #4
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Unread 28 Jun 2003, 19:18   #5
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Unread 28 Jun 2003, 20:04   #6
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Unread 28 Jun 2003, 23:16   #7
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careful, the americans might want to give 'old' a regime change...
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 01:40   #8
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i wasn't aware of america's involvement in vietnam in the 50s. tell me a story.

on point, freedom is far more valuable then democracy, and so if democracy is about to lead to end of freedoms (like a fundamentalist leadership, an anti-free speech leadership, a bush, etc.) it's better to give up democracy then freedom.

personally i tend to be against democracy for that very reason. given the choice, most people choose against freedom. america has institutions to stop that (supreme court) iraq does not.
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 02:20   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
given the choice, most people choose against freedom.
While this seems a truism, and is certainly an oft stated "fact" in politics, I'm not 100% sure if it's accurate.

I haven't got the time to really look into it properly, but can anyone find me anywhere where the majority of people have voted (in a more than one-off case) for a dramatic reduction in freedoms?

I know people will throw up that Hitler dude, but since he was never elected by the popular vote, I'm not sure if it stands. Drug policies are another classic example, but I'm not aware of any major election which has gone one way or another on the drugs issue. Usually it's the economy, or crime, or whatever. Sure, the odd local MP gets it in the arse from time to time if he admits he smoked crack or whatever, but it is never properly an election issue (to my knowledge).

In short : While it's true that the "mob" often makes foolish choices, I'd say that despite an often overwhelming domination of propaganda against freedom (or justice) the so-called common man seems to make fundamentally sound decisions. On the whole.

p.s. Opinion polls don't count, and neither do "the general feel at the time". Give me something concrete.

p.p.s. I'm well aware people like Thatcher & Reagan were elected, but (A) they generally stood on a platform of more freedom and had the support of the news media and (B) they never obtained anything like a majority of support in their respective countries.
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 04:58   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
While this seems a truism, and is certainly an oft stated "fact" in politics, I'm not 100% sure if it's accurate.

I haven't got the time to really look into it properly, but can anyone find me anywhere where the majority of people have voted (in a more than one-off case) for a dramatic reduction in freedoms?

I know people will throw up that Hitler dude, but since he was never elected by the popular vote, I'm not sure if it stands. Drug policies are another classic example, but I'm not aware of any major election which has gone one way or another on the drugs issue. Usually it's the economy, or crime, or whatever. Sure, the odd local MP gets it in the arse from time to time if he admits he smoked crack or whatever, but it is never properly an election issue (to my knowledge).

In short : While it's true that the "mob" often makes foolish choices, I'd say that despite an often overwhelming domination of propaganda against freedom (or justice) the so-called common man seems to make fundamentally sound decisions. On the whole.

p.s. Opinion polls don't count, and neither do "the general feel at the time". Give me something concrete.

p.p.s. I'm well aware people like Thatcher & Reagan were elected, but (A) they generally stood on a platform of more freedom and had the support of the news media and (B) they never obtained anything like a majority of support in their respective countries.
So you're saying that because each and every issue isn't desided by majority vote, people wouldn't vote away their freedoms if given the option?
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 08:05   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I haven't got the time to really look into it properly, but can anyone find me anywhere where the majority of people have voted (in a more than one-off case) for a dramatic reduction in freedoms?
I don't believe people generally vote against freedom. The only real trend that you can see in all real democracies is that the plurality always seems to vote against dramatic change. Most people are moderately conservative, even if they think they're not.

Having said that, in times of crisis, people get scared, and are sometimes easily conned by charismatic leader figures into willingly giving up freedom in exchange for some illusion of security. This isn't normal mob behaviour, and such cynical leaders know it, and tend to try and perpetuate the state of crisis as long as possible.
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 10:58   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
So you're saying that because each and every issue isn't desided by majority vote, people wouldn't vote away their freedoms if given the option?
Yes to the last bit, but not for the reason you give. Basically I just think the statement "People will vote against their freedom" isn't necessarily as true as it first seems.

Yes, there are people (I've met, spoken, and debated with a lot of them) who are what I'd term "freedom haters" - who instinctively will try to reduce individual liberties to achieve some kind of (often abstract) greater good. I just believe that these people aren't as numerous as they first seem, and probably punch above their weight in terms of getting their voice(s) heard.

It seems to be part of a greater trend which is seemingly endemic in almost all western political ideologies : contempt for the masses. "People wil vote away their freedoms, given the choice", "People will do what's worse for themselves if we let them", etc, etc. And yes, I'm sad to say that many Marxists/leftists are among the idiots who spew (implicitly) this msg.

[edit]In short (again) : The common sense, political insight and instinct of the masses is underrated.[/edit]
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 11:14   #13
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i agree




(see i am not an attention whore i read other peoples posts)
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 11:34   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Yes to the last bit, but not for the reason you give. Basically I just think the statement "People will vote against their freedom" isn't necessarily as true as it first seems.
No-one would purposely act against their own freedom. The issue is more that Iraqis would, according to the US, act against their own freedom out of inertia, religion, that kind of thing. Hence the whole re-education thing and the pragmatism of acropolis' post.

They had democracy before, after all .

Quote:

[edit]In short (again) : The common sense, political insight and instinct of the masses is underrated.[/edit]
Here's something academic and trivial I don't understand:

The incentive to vote is pretty low. Certainly, the incentive to learn about the issues, if they're just going to affect the last digit of a long number, is very low. The incentive to incite other people into voting, or into learning about issues, is a bit higher. So if people exercised choice we would have a nation of everyone preaching to each other only to find out that no-one voted. And then, no-one would bother preaching anymore. The only real feedback comes when you can control someone else, by indoctrination or peer pressure or other nasty processes, to act against their self-interest (surely going to the pub is better than voting). So is it all based on coersion or does human nature work differently than I have outlined?
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 11:44   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
The incentive to vote is pretty low. Certainly, the incentive to learn about the issues, if they're just going to affect the last digit of a long number, is very low.
I think you're underplaying the incentive of voting. People gain satisfaction from their side winning (football style) and from knowing about things in general. Also, people have the illusion that their vote is more important than it really is. People often vote on local issues (e.g. the closure of a local hospital, funding for local school) which often aren't even a central issue. Similarly, people are always writing to their MP asking him to intervene in trivial mattes (e.g. their transfer to a differnet house, some dispute with a local business) where an MP will have 0 power (aside from the prestige that being an MP brings).

Anyway, the pressure to be on a certain side (on even the most stupid issue) seems to be pretty strong, and voting can, in some contexts, be seen as an extention. What's the incentive for posting in a Usenet thread of "IBM-PC Compatibles vs Apple Macs"?
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 11:48   #16
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hands up who wants an islamic state though
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 11:53   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deffeh
hands up who wants an islamic state though
Well, I don't know if they do want an Islamic state. Surely if they do, that's their concern?

I doubt a well run election would result in the Islamists winning, but if it did, surely that says more about the utter worthlessness about the secular opposition?

Seems a dodgy justification for stopping an election, Kissinger, style :
"I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go Communist due to the irresponsibility of its people,"
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 12:15   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I think you're underplaying the incentive of voting. People gain satisfaction from their side winning (football style) and from knowing about things in general. Also, people have the illusion that their vote is more important than it really is. People often vote on local issues (e.g. the closure of a local hospital, funding for local school) which often aren't even a central issue. Similarly, people are always writing to their MP asking him to intervene in trivial mattes (e.g. their transfer to a differnet house, some dispute with a local business) where an MP will have 0 power (aside from the prestige that being an MP brings).
How is voting more satisfying than a drink of Coca-Cola(TM)? What happens when voting for something that damages your freedom is more pleasurable than voting sensibly? The problem with talking about pleasure is we can change what we do and don't like. If you talk to too many pot-smokers you might get the idea that refusing to vote is cool, and get more pleasure from that.

But there must be a world outside response-pleasure-feedback; those emotions are purely a guide to good and bad consequences. And in the real world the consequences of voting is infinitesimal. Say I have an exam tomorrow and the results don't affect my chances of getting into university but my teachers and parents tell me I should work hard, how can I reasonably do revision when I might as well secretly play my Gameboy under the desk and pretend the exam was much more difficult than it was when the results come? If there is no *real* consequence other than how good I feel, the whole process seems flawed.

Quote:

Anyway, the pressure to be on a certain side (on even the most stupid issue) seems to be pretty strong, and voting can, in some contexts, be seen as an extention. What's the incentive for posting in a Usenet thread of "IBM-PC Compatibles vs Apple Macs"?
For an advocate there is a percieved (imaginary?) benefit - but this suggests voting is as stupid as PC/Mac advocacy! How about: what is the incentive to be well-informed on your choice of computer? It seems most people have never tried anything non-MS, even if the quality of a large portion of their life is affected by their choice.
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 12:41   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
But there must be a world outside response-pleasure-feedback; those emotions are purely a guide to good and bad consequences. And in the real world the consequences of voting is infinitesimal.
Well, quite evidently elections can make a difference - the social democratic reforms in the post-war period for instance, or Thatcher's "Right to Buy" reforms in the 80's are two examples which spring to mind.

A council tenant who voted for Thatcher for example, helped to inact a process which allowed him to purchase his home. This (presumably) led to a change in his real-life conditions. Of course, you can argue that due to the way the electoral system works, it doesn't actually matter if he voted or not (his seat was easily won by the Tories with or without his support) but I think this is being overly simplistic.

Obviously men are not slaves to their passions, and can reason that their vote may or may not be important (and in some areas, this won't be evident until after the election) but they may as well vote to ensure the policies they wish to be enacted get put in place.

The problem is that if an election offers no real differences between candidates because political power has either been devolved to the market place, or specialist technocrats, or supranational institutions then obviously, yes voting is pointless. Which explains turnouts in most democracies over the last few decades...
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 12:46   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Of course, you can argue that due to the way the electoral system works, it doesn't actually matter if he voted or not (his seat was easily won by the Tories with or without his support) but I think this is being overly simplistic.
Why though? Or if it is simplistic, is it more correct to look simply on voters as fairly sensible, or simply to only base predictions on how people will vote on how people have voted in the past? Whatever happens there's going to be accusations of US influence. Would you rather it turned out like Iran?
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 12:58   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
Would you rather it turned out like Iran?
Compared to what? Afghanistan? Chile? Saudi Arabia?

Fair enough, "we" don't want the dity Islamists gaining power. Who do we want? Mr and Mrs Puppet?

Wishing for secular pan-Arabist republicans is all well and good, but it would have been nice to have wanted them _before_ US influence in the area gutted the secular nationalists some time ago.
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 13:18   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Compared to what? Afghanistan? Chile? Saudi Arabia?

Fair enough, "we" don't want the dity Islamists gaining power. Who do we want? Mr and Mrs Puppet?

Wishing for secular pan-Arabist republicans is all well and good, but it would have been nice to have wanted them _before_ US influence in the area gutted the secular nationalists some time ago.
Isn't Mr and Mrs Puppet what "regime change" means? So apparently it's what a whole lot of Americans want.
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 14:22   #23
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Does no-one else have a problem with us choosing a governmental style for the iraqis?

What if an Alien race had invaded Earth, particuarly Europe in the middle ages, and gotten rid of the govenmental system and other muckery like witch-burning to impose their super-duper perfect style government?

Where would we be now?

We neeed a prime directive a la star trek
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 14:26   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cmdr_Cyrax
Does no-one else have a problem with us choosing a governmental style for the iraqis?
I don't particularly like the Prime Directive in Star Trek. The prime-directive should be "Do no harm", not "Do nothing".

I would be a lot more happy to accept us choosing the Iraqi model of government if we had an unblemished track record of making every place "we" intervene in a better place. A quick look at Central or Latin America, not to mention South East Asia proves that isn't quite the case.

Giving a hundred billion dollars to the Iraqi's would certainly be classed as "intervention", yet it's infintely preferable to bombing a country, assasinating it's leaders, shooting protestors and seizing control of their economy.
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 14:38   #25
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hands up who wants an islamic state though
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Not an islamic fundamentalist state, mind you.

I despise people who can't separate a religion from it's fanatics.
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 14:48   #26
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 15:59   #27
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Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by Kåre Willoch
Well, is it just me, or is the US definition of democracy a bit odd ?
(Local elections in Iraq have been stopped, because the wrong guys would win....)

So then the "coalition" puts some puppets in charge, as they were afraid former Baath party officials and even worse, Islamists, would win.

Interestingly enough this denial of democracy goes far back. In Vietnam, the elections were stopped in the 1950s because leaders who were not puppets were about to win.

But surely we'll see a few americans ranting even in this thread about how Iraq was freed from evil, and so on. They might as well piss against the wind :P

this happen for years its an american thing

there is no democratcy in the middle east there never has been it ties in with the islamic way of life but the americans refuse to understand this and would rather install a pupet regime to keep them happy

[sarcasm on ]
after all they came to find chemical weapons but just happend to liberate the iraqis who dident want american stile liberation in the first place
[sarcasm off]
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 16:20   #28
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Democracy can go take a long walk off a short cliff for all I care. I'm not getting told what is right and wrong by the largest percentage of people who are most easy to manipulate. People just hurl words like democracy (others include liberal, left-wing, racism and freedom) around without bothering to considering what they mean and what they offer.
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 17:28   #29
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Exclamation Re: Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by BLACK_OPPS
this happen for years its an american thing

there is no democratcy in the middle east there never has been it ties in with the islamic way of life but the americans refuse to understand this and would rather install a pupet regime to keep them happy
Once upon a time there was no democracy in Europe; never had been, and it was all tied into the Christian way of life. Fortunately, there were those who didn't just accept the status quo.
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Unread 29 Jun 2003, 23:28   #30
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Re: Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by BLACK_OPPS
there is no democratcy in the middle east there never has been it ties in with the islamic way of life
Utter nonsense. There have been democracies and democrats in the Middle East for some time. Sure, they're not Utopia's (where is?), but so what?

Saying "Their culture simply is incompatible with democracy" is relativist bull****.
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 14:12   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks

I haven't got the time to really look into it properly, but can anyone find me anywhere where the majority of people have voted (in a more than one-off case) for a dramatic reduction in freedoms?
Starting off with my other thread, people have always voted against the freedom to...pick any orifice (assuming their partner permits).

Voted against pot countless times (including a voter referendum in nevada last year, and basically everything is legal there).

Against the freedom to buy (and sell) alcohol on Sundays here,

Against the right for anyone to buy (or sell) alcohol, ever, (prohibition)

Against the freedom to burn flags,

Against the freedom to protest the war in Iraq (this is only by opinion polls),

Against the freedom to form a union,

Against the freedom of the slaves,

Against the freedom to practice wicca,

Etc.

In practical terms, the people are only against freedoms which they wouldn't partake in anyway, so it is only things enjoyed by a minority that get made illegal.

So I'm not saying that people will vote against their own freedom, but you can always get a majority to a screw a minority, and then rearrange to screw a different minority, and keep rearranging to screw a different minority until everyone has been restricted.

Last edited by acropolis; 30 Jun 2003 at 14:26.
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 17:07   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
Starting off with my other thread, people have always voted against the freedom to...pick any orifice (assuming their partner permits).
I was speaking on a national level (sure, small towns can have warped sensibilities I'm sure) but the vast majority of the issues weren't decided by referendum - they were decided by legislatures (the so-called informed elite) voted by small pluralities (i.e. not the majority).

I'll allow the pot thing though, but that's hardly surprising given the hysteria around the drugs issue in the US. Also, what was the turnout? I'd definitely imagine that the number of people who care about is probably fairly limited and will be split between pot-heads and religious nuts (pro and con respectively).

I'd still prefer to trust the masses compared to any other small group of people (including my cadre of fanatics in the communist party).
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 17:43   #33
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Re: Re: Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Once upon a time there was no democracy in Europe; never had been, and it was all tied into the Christian way of life. Fortunately, there were those who didn't just accept the status quo.
The history of 'european' culture (including areas settled by europeans) is one of progress. I do not recognise this trend in other cultures.
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 17:49   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I was speaking on a national level (sure, small towns can have warped sensibilities I'm sure) but the vast majority of the issues weren't decided by referendum - they were decided by legislatures (the so-called informed elite) voted by small pluralities (i.e. not the majority).

I'll allow the pot thing though, but that's hardly surprising given the hysteria around the drugs issue in the US. Also, what was the turnout? I'd definitely imagine that the number of people who care about is probably fairly limited and will be split between pot-heads and religious nuts (pro and con respectively).

I'd still prefer to trust the masses compared to any other small group of people (including my cadre of fanatics in the communist party).
I tried to stick to issues that either have passed or would pass by national referendum.

If you go down to the individual community referendums, you can get some really whacked out stuff, but like you say, that's not a measuring stick on the real masses.

Democracies do have two advantages when it comes to preserving freedom (versus monarchy etc.): first, a freedom-crushing law will only pass if it only effects fewer than half the people (no one is going to vote against their own freedom).

Whereas in a monarchy, laws against the freedom of 99.9% of the people can be passed easily.

Secondly, democracies are terribly inefficient. So the freedom-crushing takes a really long time.
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 18:10   #35
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by bink
The history of 'european' culture (including areas settled by europeans) is one of progress. I do not recognise this trend in other cultures.


Stay in school and don't do drugs kids.
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 18:48   #36
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue

For starters you could define progress, if you are referring to technological progress, you'll find that Europeans have only been ahead of the game for the last 200 years and that in part was becasue we spent the same time peroid kicking the crap out of everyone else. Furthermore East Asia seems to have caught up and overtaken us. Both China and India were way ahead of us technologically before invaded them and set them back about hundred years.
Europe was far and away ahead 500 years ago. Europe didn't exist per se 1500 years ago.

In between, Europe was obviously behind ~800AD and clearly about even by ~1200AD.
Quote:
Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Similarly North Africa was responsible for a lot of what is considered European culture, such as philosophy, Mathematics the alphabet, time and numbers. Unless you renounce these.
I'm unaware of any contributions to these by any north african societies that wasn't a greek colony.

Moreover, the alphabet, our calendar/time system, and numeral systems all were created before European society existed (and phoenicia wasn't north african).

I think the question, then, is "of the major progresses that have occurred since the advent of european society, what share were of european origin and what share were not?"
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 19:47   #37
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
I think the question, then, is "of the major progresses that have occurred since the advent of european society, what share were of european origin and what share were not?"

Our situation required industrialisation, theirs didn't. There was more competition for resources in Europe due to the proximity of many hostile groups in such a small area, most other areas either had huge expanses of terrain or a largely mono-cultural (fundamentally) population, or both. Basically cultures "advance" as needed. European civilization needed it more.



PS Egypt wasn't a greek colony. In fact through Crete it was one of the primary influences on Greece itself.





PPS This whole Europeans and the west are responsible for the misery of millions idea is really beginning to piss me off. Every nation practiced slavery, every nation went on genocidal rampages, every nation exploited it's weaker neighbours. Quite simply the only difference is that we were better at it than they were.
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 20:07   #38
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america has been restricting democracy because of it become 'too democratic' since the 1950's

this isnt new.
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 22:09   #39
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood

PS Egypt wasn't a greek colony. In fact through Crete it was one of the primary influences on Greece itself.
Have you ever heard of Alexander the Great? The Ptolemaeic pharaos? Stay in school and don't do drugs, kid!
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 22:28   #40
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
<snip>
Re-read what you just wrote. Thank you for supporting my point so strikingly.

We were barbarians too, once, but become more civilized. Brief episodes of severe setback in this respect not withstanding, which you obviously refer to with your references to genocide (which you might think is exclusively white-male behaviour, I will not bother to correct you), ask yourself if western culture was more- or less civilised in 1965 than it was in 1935.

So much so that we today can "struggle with basic inequalities". The realisation (on a wide scale) that some things that are good for you may not be fair to others, and that this is a bad thing, and not a good thing, is a very modern, civilised concept. I assume that with "basic inequalities" you refer to the realisation that it is unfair that a black kid will have to work harder to achieve the same as a white kid, and not the basic realisation that it is unfair to hunt pygmees for meat, because pygmee meat gives you magical powers so you can impregnate more of your slaves.

If you believe that the rest of the world lives in ethnic harmony, and that all their problems have been caused by 'us' cramming barbarism down the throats of the noble savages, then I am done discussing this with you.
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 22:34   #41
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by bink
Re-read what you just wrote. Thank you for supporting my point so strikingly.

We were barbarians too, once, but become more civilized. Brief episodes of severe setback in this respect not withstanding, which you obviously refer to with your references to genocide (which you might think is exclusively white-male behaviour, I will not bother to correct you), ask yourself if western culture was more- or less civilised in 1965 than it was in 1935.

So much so that we today can "struggle with basic inequalities". The realisation (on a wide scale) that some things that are good for you may not be fair to others, and that this is a bad thing, and not a good thing, is a very modern, civilised concept. I assume that with "basic inequalities" you refer to the realisation that it is unfair that a black kid will have to work harder to achieve the same as a white kid, and not the basic realisation that it is unfair to hunt pygmees for meat, because pygmee meat gives you magical powers so you can impregnate more of your slaves.

If you believe that the rest of the world lives in ethnic harmony, and that all their problems have been caused by 'us' cramming barbarism down the throats of the noble savages, then I am done discussing this with you.
So do you agree with the whole "white man's burden" thing (perhaps minus the obvious racial overtones), or do you think that we could "help them out" if we wanted to, but we don't owe them anything?
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 22:39   #42
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
So do you agree with the whole "white man's burden" thing (perhaps minus the obvious racial overtones), or do you think that we could "help them out" if we wanted to, but we don't owe them anything?
I do not associate race with culture, and I do not believe in violently civilizing other cultures against their will. We could help them out if they want it.
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 22:56   #43
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Democracy

Quote:
Originally posted by bink
Have you ever heard of Alexander the Great? The Ptolemaeic pharaos? Stay in school and don't do drugs, kid!

Don't be wilfully stupid. History didn't start at 400BC. Seeing as you basically just called me stupid without bothering to check whether you were correct or not I'm going to call you a ****ing moron and feel perfectly justified.
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Unread 30 Jun 2003, 23:48   #44
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No, young lad, your responses to my observation that European culture has a history of progress while others do not are not relevant. The culture that built the pyramids 40 centuries ago does not exist today, so commenting on their progress or lack of it would be silly. European culture did start around 400 BC, give or take a few centuries. A culture doesn't 'start' on a single day.

Don't try to engage in a battle of the wits, you are ill equipped for it.
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Unread 1 Jul 2003, 00:25   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by bink
No, young lad, your responses to my observation that European culture has a history of progress while others do not are not relevant. The culture that built the pyramids 40 centuries ago does not exist today, so commenting on their progress or lack of it would be silly. European culture did start around 400 BC, give or take a few centuries. A culture doesn't 'start' on a single day.

Don't try to engage in a battle of the wits, you are ill equipped for it.

1) The Dark Ages
2) I was pointing out that there were many influences on European civilisation and that most of those influences came from either Egypt or Mesopotamia.
3) European culture does not exist as a single entity.


In fact you could quite easily say many things on your observation. Your delusional wanderings concerning European civilisation are beyond banal to be honest. To start at the beginning
Quote:
The history of 'european' culture (including areas settled by europeans) is one of progress. I do not recognise this trend in other cultures
Define progress. Do you mean social? Economic? Cultural? Artistic? Military? What do you mean by European culture? Those nasty Dark Ages appear to get in the way of social and cultural progress not to mention economic. Militarily Europe went backwards and lost control of the Mediterranean to Islam for a few centuries after they captured most of the main islands in the Med, eg Sicily, the Balaeric Islands and so on.

What do you mean by Europe anyways? Communism and fascism certainly inflicted some hardships socially and culturally on Europe. The closing of the Baahaus schools in germany during the 30s was hardly a sign of unbridled cultural progress was it? The history of censorship perpetuated by the Catholic church (which has been the single greatest influence on European civilisation for the past 2000 years) is not exactly indicative of a free and culturally advanced society.

What about intellectually? After the Greeks, through first the smaller island civilisations of the Aegean sea and those through the civilisations of Mesopotamia and Egypt (writing, trigonometry, agriculture and a few other minor advancements), Europe looked fairly bare for a while. Certainly the main three philosophers of Greece contributed massively on an intellectual level, however Rome did little bar read the books they wrote and write smaller treatises on minor issues they had come upon. Meanwhile you had the great Muslim philosophers (al-Kindi and Averroes being widely acknowledged as the greatest of them all) who kept the light of intellectual achievement burning while Europe literally burned as the Roman empire collapsed. In fact if it was not for the invasion of Spain (averroes was rated by Bacon alongside Aristotle) it is doubtful whether the great Christian philosophers would have revived the west at all.

Militarily though? I suppose we discovered gunpowder? Those Chinese people do nothing after all don't they? I suppose it was to everyone else's misfortune that we weren't culturally advanced enough to respect the rights and indeed lives of others. Certainly militarily it hasn't been complete success and advancement though. The great tacticians of Rome were dead and for 500 years Europe lost it's pre-eminence over the Mediterranean civilisations. Rome itself after all was hard pushed on it's eastern frontier by the Persians (Sasshid dynasty I believe) during it's latter years. Certainly when Byzantine fell and Islam reached Vienna Europeans were militarily at their zenith. It took until 1492 for the Spanish to remove the last Muslim stronghold. (Incidentally many Spanish customs can be traced back to their Muslim origins, bull-fighting being one that springs to mind quickly. Most of the southern cities were also far cleaner and possessed better sewerage systems right up into the 20th century). Bit old though that whole thing? Don't forget the fact the Russian Empire was beaten by the Japanese at the beginning of the 20th century. Hey though, perhaps Russia isn't part of Europe? Well if it isn't then the Europeans, in the shape of the germans, were beaten by the Russians, who faced two thirds of the german armyby the way, during WWII .

Socially? Well we've certainly had variety. Hardly linear progress though to be honest. Certainly most of those of us possessing a few brain cells wouldn't call Nazi germany social progress. They sure built roads though didn't they! Slavery was hardly condemned by the greatest early European philosophers either. Possibly they were still infected by Eastern thought...... Progress though? Well the Greeks thought homosexuality was perfectly normal and allowed freedom of choice. Then we just tore that idea up and threw it out the window. Getting rid of freedom of choice, what a marvellous social advancement.

Economically perhaps? Not exactly startling exponential progress all the way. Certainly the havoc wreaked in modern times by war damaged European economies. In fact without the Marshall plan the economic boom of the 50s and the massive increases in GNP per capita across the West wouldn't have happened. Maybe we can just call the US estranged Europeans though. That certainly makes sense on a wide number of levels! Earlier than that we have the devastation caused in Russia during WWI and the communist revolutions afterwards. The terror famines in the Ukraine weren't exactly wonderful signs of progress though. We were always pretty good at killing though. Islam certainly outdid us economically during the Dark Ages though. In fact without the exodus from Byzantine the Renaissance probably wouldn't have happened, and the associated take-off in trade and art would have been severely hampered if not totally impeded. We learnt trade from the Middle East as well, in the shape of the Phoenicians, hardly a totally European invention.

Don't believe everything you read on white supremacist web-sites.









PS There goes a good portion of my life.
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Unread 1 Jul 2003, 05:30   #46
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There's a lot that can be said to refute Bink's original post, but thankfully it's already been done in the form of a book.

Please read :
The Colonisers Model of the World by Jim Blaut

Thanks in advance
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Unread 1 Jul 2003, 05:54   #47
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i cant be bothered to read through or reply to all the comments here and it is the same old you all through out every chance you get....as far as the original post ........do you expect that after 25+ years of dictatorship that the people were ready to have elcections for a new permanent government?
I know the UNited States messes everything up etc etc etc but cant you guys just for once take a step back and be the least bit reasonable and allow some time to pass before you judge the aftermath in Iraq? anyhow thats all i have to say atm as im too tired to worry about the other replies above atm....so Flame away.....
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Unread 1 Jul 2003, 16:11   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
There's a lot that can be said to refute Bink's original post, but thankfully it's already been done in the form of a book.

Please read :
The Colonisers Model of the World by Jim Blaut

Thanks in advance

The Colonizer's Model of the World: Geographical Diffusionism and Eurocentric History
James M Blaut
Availability: we are currently unable to offer this title. It may be out of stock with the publisher or out of print. If you would like to purchase this title, we recommend that you occasionally check this page to see if it has become available.



Damn communists.
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Unread 1 Jul 2003, 17:00   #49
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Quote:
"It was only geographic proximity (and luck) that allowed the Europeans to "discover" America, which had advanced cultures, too."
That's silliness.

Neither Africa nor China ever did much in the way of exploring, and Africa was in just as good a position to discover the 'new world' as Europe (and China could have done Australia).

I could see the claim that if middle eastern culture had been in Europe's geographic position, they would have discovered the new world and become today's west. But that's wrong too.

And America didn't have any 'advanced' cultures.
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Unread 1 Jul 2003, 17:05   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
That's silliness.

Neither Africa nor China ever did much in the way of exploring, and Africa was in just as good a position to discover the 'new world' as Europe (and China could have done Australia).

I could see the claim that if middle eastern culture had been in Europe's geographic position, they would have discovered the new world and become today's west. But that's wrong too.

And America didn't have any 'advanced' cultures.
the chinese traded with africa. They had Eunuch captains. They were
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