So...how are we voting in tomorrow`s euro elections...?

[BesigedB]

Originally Posted by Proteus

I probably still couldn't be bothered. I might vote in the General Election, but even then it would be a bit pointless, as the probability of my constituency electing anyone other than a Conservative MP is practically nil.

And thats because people like you don't vote

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by BesigedB

And thats because people like you don't vote

I'd be voting Conservative, so I don't see that my vote would make much difference, except to give Sir Paul Beresford even more of a majority.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

The people with the higest level of political education don't vote as they know it's worthless.

Isn't there a communist candidate/party on the ballot you can vote for?

Or have you given up on that commie stuff?

[Deffeh]

If you didnt vote today i dont want to hear a single complaint about anything Brussels does till the next election.

[Flayer]

I don't live in the UK, but Just dont vote for the red guys :P

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Proteus

I probably still couldn't be bothered. I might vote in the General Election, but even then it would be a bit pointless, as the probability of my constituency electing anyone other than a Conservative MP is practically nil.

Vote as a Cambridge resident?

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Vote as a Cambridge resident?

I don't want that Campbell woman as my MP. She's an idiot.

[Chrism]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Any particular reason?

I'm a Conservative, a rather liberal one I admit, but a Conservative all the same. And while certain elements of the party will take this and run with the silly 'get out of Europe' politiking, I'd rather not give the unconditional support for the EU that a vote for Labour or Lib Dems effectively means. On a local level, we have a decent chance of winning a few seats. We'll be third behind Labour and Lib Dems, but a good showing will put us in good stead to start taking back the odd parliamentary seat round here.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

Isn't there a communist candidate/party on the ballot you can vote for?

Not especially, but Communists only run in elections to gague working class consciousness in a given area. At least that's what we used to tell ourselves when campaigning. We follow the "workers choosing their master" line too.

And in this election, no there is no Communist candidate. There is an umbrella anti-war anti-racism coalition (Respect, the worst name ever for a political grouping) though, which I probably would have voted for. But it's probably best we're not registered (although it's illegal) for debt related reasons.

Or have you given up on that commie stuff?

Nah, of course not.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Proteus

I don't want that Campbell woman as my MP. She's an idiot.

I don't think much of the rest of cambridge will either, given her (on occasion) rather antigown stance.

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

And in this election, no there is no Communist candidate. There is an umbrella anti-war anti-racism coalition (Respect, the worst name ever for a political grouping) though, which I probably would have voted for. But it's probably best we're not registered (although it's illegal) for debt related reasons.Nah, of course not.

Galloway is lose

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Leshy

You're hardly anyones slave

OK, I'll just stop paying taxes and do what I want with my body (chemical consumption wise). Oh wait, here come the police, I wonder what they want.

- although I find this comment amusing, considering communism is generally associated with government control on a variety of territories, effectively enslaving you more than most other forms of government.

That's because the term "communism" has been associated with Stalinist statism. I should think it's clear from my body of posts / general attitudes than I'm not in favour of anything even vaguely like that.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by lokken

Galloway is lose

Galloway seems a bit of a twat (although the same could be said for anyone who has associated themselves with the Labour Party in the last 70 years) but there are some solid people doing work in that formation, so I'm willing to overlook him.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Galloway seems a bit of a twat (although the same could be said for anyone who has associated themselves with the Labour Party in the last 70 years) but there are some solid people doing work in that formation, so I'm willing to overlook him.

I vote for Joan Collins.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

OK, I'll just stop paying taxes and do what I want with my body (chemical consumption wise). Oh wait, here come the police, I wonder what they want.

Paying taxes is hardly "slavery". As for the second part - victimless crimes should indeed not even be considered crimes. Fortunately the party I voted for aims to keep our policy on drugs and would thus grant you far greater freedom in that regard.

That's because the term "communism" has been associated with Stalinist statism. I should think it's clear from my body of posts / general attitudes than I'm not in favour of anything even vaguely like that.

Yes, which is why I was somewhat confused.

But then I'll not get into a big political debate, considering I've been running this week on about a total of 10 hours of sleep.

[Chrism]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Galloway seems a bit of a twat (although the same could be said for anyone who has associated themselves with the Labour Party in the last 70 years) but there are some solid people doing work in that formation, so I'm willing to overlook him.

Of all the ones I've met so far, I don't think I'd be unfair in calling any of them a twat. It's not their policies (I get on fine with plenty of people who I don't see eye to eye politically with), they're just rude and obnoxious little twats.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Leshy

Paying taxes is hardly "slavery".

I suppose it's more accurately termed extortion, but whatever.

As for reformism as a path to liberation, we've been trying that for 70 years now and I'm not convinced politically we're much better off.

[midge5]

Bloody hell I didn't expect the count to finish at gone 5am, thought I would asleep ages ago not just arriving home. I dread to think how long it would take if they had a decent turnout.

[Deepflow]

the count wasnt meant to finish until tonight. for some reason im not entirely sure of.

this meant that you cant do a long hard days of campaigning then go get drunk at the count and have an all night party, one of our proudest political traditions

[Dante Hicks]

The London mayor counts haven't even started have they?

[IncubusGod]

If you dont vote then you have NO RIGHT TO BITCH AND MOAN about political parties, your local and national government or the EU until your next chance to vote.

No exceptions.

[Chrism]

Originally Posted by IncubusGod

If you dont vote then you have NO RIGHT TO BITCH AND MOAN about political parties, your local and national government or the EU until your next chance to vote.

No exceptions.

Yes you do, it's called freedom of speech.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by IncubusGod

If you dont vote then you have NO RIGHT TO BITCH AND MOAN about political parties, your local and national government or the EU until your next chance to vote.

What if you vote for the Labour Party (say) and they then get into power and go an invade another country (which obviously wasn't in their manifesto). What then? Do you have the right to moan then?

Originally Posted by Chrism

Yes you do, it's called freedom of speech.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

What if you vote for the Labour Party (say) and they then get into power and go an invade another country (which obviously wasn't in their manifesto). What then? Do you have the right to moan then?

No, it's your fault for voting for Mr Blair

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Stew

No, it's your fault for voting for Mr Blair

So the only way you can retain your "right" to moan is by voting for a political party which definitely can't win?

Rocking.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

So the only way you can retain your "right" to moan is by voting for a political party which definitely can't win?

Never met any lib dems?

[IncubusGod]

Originally Posted by Chrism

Yes you do, it's called freedom of speech.

Well no matter who you vote for you still excercised your right to vote and expressed who your preferred candidate was. Even if you spoiled your vote out of protest then you have particiapted and have the right to talk/whine about the politcal issues of your region.

If you sit at home, don't bother to vote and say "it never changes anything" well your a fking muppet. It'll never change if you dont at least try. If everyone who said that got up and voted then things WOULD change.

People who dont participate in the politcal process then bitch and moan about it not representing their view have no excuse. If you didnt try to present your views then how the hell are they supposed to be addressed?!

You can whine and moan all you want but I doubt ppl should listen.

It's like being invited to a swingers party, not showing up and then complaining that you never got any that night.

Freedom of Speech is also an american ideal and rarely included in any european countries constitution.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by IncubusGod

If you sit at home, don't bother to vote and say "it never changes anything" well your a fking muppet. It'll never change if you dont at least try. If everyone who said that got up and voted then things WOULD change.

What about people who disagree with the democratic system, or don't see any candidates that are even close to their viewpoint? It's possible to stand, but what if you can't afford it?

And Freedom of Speech is also pretty European (the philosophy behind it, for instance; the famous quote from Voltaire, and to a lesser extent some stuff by JS Mill), and even if it wasn't, then why shouldn't it apply as an ideal? The right to life and liberty is also an american ideal (well, constitutional ideal anyway), does that mean if we didn't have a similar document we couldn't argue against a totalitarian regime because those ideals don't apply?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by IncubusGod

People who dont participate in the politcal process then bitch and moan about it not representing their view have no excuse. If you didnt try to present your views then how the hell are they supposed to be addressed?!

I'm not really concerned that it doesn't represent my views. I'm concerned that it's fundamentally immoral.

It's like being invited to a swingers party, not showing up and then complaining that you never got any that night.

No, it's like not being part of a gang and then complaining when said gang goes round beating people up. Hey, you could have joined the gang and helped to steer them in the moral directions!

Freedom of Speech is also an american ideal and rarely included in any european countries constitution.

Oh, so it must be invalid then!

Freedom of expression is included in the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, and is also protected (to an extent) under European legislation. Not that that is relevant.

Besides, the framers of the US Constitution were influenced by European political philosophy y'know. (Mill, Locke, Voltaire, etc...oh Mark just said this)

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

But the stance of many isn't to not vote and then complain about the particular administration but merely the whole sham that is Liberal Democracy.

How is Liberal Democracy a sham? Because there's no party that represents your wishes and interests accurately?

[IncubusGod]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

No, it's like not being part of a gang and then complaining when said gang goes round beating people up. Hey, you could have joined the gang and helped to steer them in the moral directions!

Thats not quite valid. There are police and judical forces in place that should stop them beating people up.

IF you were the only one who could at least try to stop them and didn't then surely you can't complain when they beat you or someone else up.

Its the ability to change something (Problem X) but by inaction not doing so then complaining about the problem X that pisses me off.

Oh, so it must be invalid then!

I was mearly pointing this out, that Freedom Of Speech is a high minded ideal in Europe but in many cases if you try to apply this your in for a shock.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by IncubusGod

Thats not quite valid. There are police and judical forces in place that should stop them beating people up.

If you assume there isn't, then it's a more accurate representation of governance.

Originally Posted by IncubusGod

Its the ability to change something (Problem X) but by inaction not doing so then complaining about the problem X that pisses me off.

Refer to my post, duder.

Originally Posted by IncubusGod

I was mearly pointing this out, that Freedom Of Speech is a high minded ideal in Europe but in many cases if you try to apply this your in for a shock.

If you try to apply it to your ability to criticise the government, then you'll probably be ok.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

So the only way you can retain your "right" to moan is by voting for a political party which definitely can't win?

Incidentally, this is the reason those parties never win.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Leshy

Incidentally, this is the reason those parties never win.

You mean people don't vote for them?

WELL DONE HOLMES

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

You mean people don't vote for them?

WELL DONE HOLMES

Shut it, Watson.

It's the same problem applied to a different layer. People complain about smaller and better parties never winning anyway, so they don't bother to vote for them or vote at all. It's for a large part a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Leshy

It's the same problem applied to a different layer. People complain about smaller and better parties never winning anyway, so they don't bother to vote for them or vote at all. It's for a large part a self-fulfilling prophecy.

He never said that at all; he was talking about the right to complain, and voting for a random party that will never win in order to gain this right.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

He never said that at all; he was talking about the right to complain, and voting for a random party that will never win in order to gain this right.

Yes, and I was highlighting a second issue that often pops up in relation to the first issue, as his post formed a bridge between these issues.

[IncubusGod]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

What about people who disagree with the democratic system, or don't see any candidates that are even close to their viewpoint? It's possible to stand, but what if you can't afford it?

Why should you have to vote for any particular candidate? Why should you have to stand for election if you dont particularly agree with the candidates?
Why not try to find like minded people and start a group? Lobby people to represent your views? Why not have a candidate stand? Why not spoil your vote as a means of protest?
Why not do SOMETHING at least instead of resigning saying that nothing ever changes and no-one I agree with is involved with politics.

This also addresses Dante's assertion that what I am implying is that you must vote for a party that cannot win to gain the right to complain

[LHC]

You can't form a pressure group without voting, because then you have no right to complain.

[Deffeh]

Vote. If you dont like the candidates, go and spoil your ballot paper. If you dont agree with the systems right to exist, too bad. Nobody likes a communist.

All your arguments seem to revolve around the fact that things are bad at the moment though, which they quite frankly arent. Being anti authority for the sheer sake of it.

[IncubusGod]

<3 deffeh

[IncubusGod]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

*snip*
I'm not telling the politicians how to do their job, I'm telling them that I don't give them permission to make decisons for me.

The problem here is that while your points are vaild, what can you do about them? No government will allow you to 'declare' independance, it would undermine their power base. So what do you suggest? Open revolution? Clearly you do not have enough support to make that work. Oh,I know,take part in the political system and try to affect changes from there. Use their system against themselves.

I'd like to hear suggestions on how to attain you goals via another means.

[Zar]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

I'm sure Dante has said this better.

i hate the fact that on these boards, people have to pretend to be modest, otherwise fear to look arrogant.

What you said is fine, and you don't have to try to appear to be modest by pretending that what Dante has said may or may not be better...cause i know deep down that you think that what you have said inherently makes more sense and is better than what Dante has said (pertaining to your point). So be openly proud and confident of it and don't try to hide behind the fact that if someone argues your point - you can point and say.... "dante explains it better than me"

[IncubusGod]

T & F Your point was better made than Dante ever managed. My question still remains though.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by IncubusGod

If you dont vote then you have NO RIGHT TO BITCH AND MOAN about political parties, your local and national government or the EU until your next chance to vote.

No exceptions.

But I normally have no desire to discuss politics with the plebeian sections of society that generally compose the majority of 'popular party' voters, so why on earth would I care whether they think I have the 'right to criticize'?. I have no real interest in educating those who do not wish to learn, unless they were to pay me or something.

[IncubusGod]

Nod did you model your personality on a some odeously tacky egotistical bad guy from an old sherlock holmes book or something?

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

Vote. If you dont like the candidates, go and spoil your ballot paper. If you dont agree with the systems right to exist, too bad. Nobody likes a communist.

All your arguments seem to revolve around the fact that things are bad at the moment though, which they quite frankly arent. Being anti authority for the sheer sake of it.

When I was a kid, I used to be the only person in my immediate family who did not like Christmas. Every year, all my relatives came round for turkey dinner and would stay all night to drink alcohol and generally party. Now, I have no brothers and sisters, and it would normally happen that I was the only person present under the age of 40. I found this rather awkward, and as such didn't really have much to say to my relatives, however my parents always wanted me to 'make an effort' to talk to them. While my mum and dad were the ones who bought the presents for my relatives, it was always me who would be called down from my room to give them out. It was always me who would be expected to greet and say goodbye to the visitors, and play the usual "Kiss The Aunt" and "Look How Much You've Grown" games. As I said, Christmas was not a time I particularly enjoyed.

Now, I wasn't a **** who was rude to people or sat around sulking because of this; I normally just said brief 'hellos' to my relatives and then tried to go back to my room and do whatever I was doing. My mum didn't like this though; she always used to call me every hour or so to try and get me to come down and talk to people. I never used to understand why my lack of desire to participate actually annoyed people to the extent of 'ruining their fun', or why anyone else gave a damn whether I was there or not. It wasn't as if I was harming anyone or making them feel awkward - as I said, I wasn't going around being mean to people or standing about with an annoyed expression on my face - I would be upstairs in my bedroom the whole time, normally alone. I always thought that if I was truly enjoying myself, it wouldnt really matter if those around me were enjoying themselves also. I would certainly have no desire to force others to participate in order to reassure myself that things were actually as good as I wanted them to be. I still wonder about this sometimes, but I think I understand the phenomenon a lot better now than I did back then.

[Deepflow]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by IncubusGod

Nod did you model your personality on a some odeously tacky egotistical bad guy from an old sherlock holmes book or something?

Hey, I'm not the one going round telling people the actions they must perform in order to be able to vocalise their thoughts. Who is the one who is truly egotistical here - the person who actually expects others to care whether he thinks they have a 'right' to an opinion, or the person who couldn't care less?

[Dante Hicks]

Good post Nod, that sort of thing used to happen to me too.

Can anyone explain how practically speaking spoiling a ballot paper is better than not voting?

Originally Posted by IncubusGod

Why not do SOMETHING at least instead of resigning saying that nothing ever changes and no-one I agree with is involved with politics.

You're slightly confused here. I'm not saying that you should do nothing. I'm saying there isn't a great deal of point in voting.

For what it's worth (i.e. practically nothing) I have campaigned, I have been part of political parties, etc. I am also a member of a trade union (again, practically worthless), etc. I've been to demonstrations, I've undertaken forms of direct action, and so on.

I'm not advocating apathy. I'm advocating not voting. There is a world of difference and it is the height of arrogance to presume that people who don't vote are somehow incapable of performing other political acts.

Having said all of that, I'd say "complaining" is a form of political action anyway.