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Unread 15 Nov 2009, 18:42   #151
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
If App had the same amount of members yea sure App could win. But which part of a small tag didn't you get yet JBG? Fact is with these alliances either App or Asc wins without having to invest a great deal of effort. Problem is the lack of members here.
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
im quite confident ascendancy wont win
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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I really don't see a way for Ascendancy to win this round unless all the alliances above us in the rankings suddenly starts kicking members.
I'm not sure which of these three posts is the most dishonest. Both alliances are contenders with potential for the round win, and will be a determining factor in who wins as an absolute minimum. Pretending otherwise is just plain silly.
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Unread 15 Nov 2009, 18:47   #152
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Re: Interesting change in politics

we have the potential for the round win but i dont think we will win it, i dont think we have the active numbers

we may be a determining factor in who wins but thats not a guarantee either as so far our politics have been pretty neutral from what i've seen

subh are the most likely to win imo, not least cause they seem to have the motivation. maybe ND can use experience to edge them out
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Unread 15 Nov 2009, 22:22   #153
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
If App had the same amount of members yea sure App could win. But which part of a small tag didn't you get yet JBG? Fact is with these alliances either App or Asc wins without having to invest a great deal of effort. Problem is the lack of members here.
Who the hell cares about members, it's how much score they generate. And ascendancy's extra members aren't exactly generating a lot more score. Apprime have already demonstrated this round that they don't need more members to generate more score than Ascendancy. You're all such total faggots about pa I find myself wishing subh actually win, I would hope at least they could admit they're going for it.
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Unread 15 Nov 2009, 23:01   #154
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Who the hell cares about members, it's how much score they generate. And ascendancy's extra members aren't exactly generating a lot more score. Apprime have already demonstrated this round that they don't need more members to generate more score than Ascendancy. You're all such total faggots about pa I find myself wishing subh actually win, I would hope at least they could admit they're going for it.
Looking at the graphs, in terms of roids and income they were getting income at a level roughly between Ascendancy and Subh's before they got hit.

Despite their numbers, they seem to have the roiding capacity to match (and perhaps exceed) the income of the two others (which are both relatively even at the moment). Indeed, today, they matched Ascendancy for number of roids gained pretty much. On the Ascendancy front, they now have more income than subh, so I'm not sure what numbers argument they have either.

Graph: http://www.sandmans.co.uk/?p=compare...k=&type=values
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Unread 15 Nov 2009, 23:39   #155
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Re: Interesting change in politics

What bout Euphoria and DLR? Shouldnt be left out imo
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 00:09   #156
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
i wouldnt call a galaxy in rank 18 a 'stronghold'
I would. In this context, rank means very little.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
also im pretty sure ascendancy now has all its late starters in tag, which means its highly unlikely our member count will surpass 60 this round.
We're currently at 62 members, according to Munin.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 00:38   #157
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I would. In this context, rank means very little.
rank is relevant as it shows the relative strength of a galaxy. said galaxy isnt as strong as the other 2 main asc galaxies

if we're going by the definition of stronghold as a place with strong defenses i wouldnt consider this galaxy to be of the same base strength that other galaxies have, and due to the fact its mostly an asc gal it has a much smaller defense pool compared to other gals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mz
We're currently at 62 members, according to Munin.
62 members ingame?

only 58 planets intag atm and it looks to me like all have joined, who are the other 4 ?
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 00:43   #158
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
rank is relevant as it shows the relative strength of a galaxy. said galaxy isnt as strong as the other 2 main asc galaxies

if we're going by the definition of stronghold as a place with strong defenses i wouldnt consider this galaxy to be of the same base strength that other galaxies have, and due to the fact its mostly an asc gal it has a much smaller defense pool compared to other gals
So what you're saying is, alliances should be hitting your galaxy now for easy roids?
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 00:48   #159
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Re: Interesting change in politics

oh jesus, now lights saying things
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 01:19   #160
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
As regards the people in your gal I'd agree with you if most of them didn't change alliances relentlessly.
I m probably one of those people ur talking about here.
But to be fair, I guess alot of people have this problem these days. I ve been a part of a few cores over the years I ve played PA. Today none of them are currently playing as an alliance, so I ( along with so many others in the PA community ) try to find a nice place to play. Since I know alot of people, I will be asked to join quite a few alliances.
I ve never left an alliance midround, but I do leave after a round if I havent enjoyed my stay there.

I was in Subh ages before this bp was formed, which btw was formed out of the blue really. Also, the BP imo isnt really fenced - 2 vsn and 2 subh and 1 asc. That we got exiles and randoms in other alliances have lead us to a situation where I can understand people calling it "fencing", but imo thats just a phrase which is used way too often and freely these days.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 01:28   #161
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Re: Interesting change in politics

I basically thought that when you get the randoms in, you tell them which alliance to go!
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 01:48   #162
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Re: Interesting change in politics

I've probably got a different conception of what fencing is to most people to be honest. I think of PA as a game you can play in two ways, you're either idle and don't do much and don't really give a **** what happens or you play for a particular purpose. More generally you can also not really know what you're doing but that really falls under the first category. I respect core galaxies because they're out to strengthen the alliance they're playing for and that's their purpose. A lot of other galaxies are played by people who fall into the first category (or more specifically the part of it where they don't really know what they're doing). The problem I have with the rest of the playerbase is that they do know what they're doing, they know how pa is played and what they choose to give a **** about is either individual accomplishment or the accomplishment of a few friends. On an even more basic level it's about minimising effort. I don't think a lot of people want to play a tough round, they just want to idle through and end up winning, engage in a bout of mutual back-slapping about how great they are and buddypack again for r62.

These aims are not pursued in an honest manner though (I use the term honest fairly loosely and I don't mean it as as much of a slight as it might sound). You have people scattered across different alliances whose primary loyalty is not to that group, although on the surface they'll claim that it is. Instead their loyalty is to their select group of friends. They're really just in those alliances because it's better to be in an alliance than not in terms of their planets. The alliances are used and then discarded if there's a better option out there. Realistically they just don't give a ****.

This is part of what I see as a fairly systemic problem in PA where the game isn't played with any particular goal in mind. At times it seems like people are simply going through the motions and are pretty much just waiting for the next round to start so they can do it all over again. You can see this reflected in the attitude of most people towards winning and going for the win. On some levels winning has become devalued. There have been a lot of rounds of PA and most of the people at the top have won (alliance wise) at least a couple of times. Most people left playing the game who care have shown that they can win and largely they just want to avoid the hard grind that winning sometimes is. Why put in the effort again? I should know, I've been there as much as anyone and it really can be ****ing appalling when the only question facing you is whether or not the other side can get enough planets involved hitting you to slow you down.

Long-term, as in beyond this round, I reckon the game is too stagnant as it is. Nothing seems to happen that hasn't happened before and the reality of how boring this is is the main reason why people don't get more involved. Hopefully pateam will step in and change something fundamental, abolish alliances, abolish galaxies, change the terms on which we decide who wins the round and refresh the game. Unfortunately none of them will ever read this post because, let's be honest, they're as much affected by the malaise that's running through this game as anyone. Even worse none of them play the game or think much about improving it so in all likelihood we'll have another few rounds as dry as every recent round has been. Something to look forward to there.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 02:24   #163
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
62 members ingame?

only 58 planets intag atm and it looks to me like all have joined, who are the other 4 ?
Jesus Christ man, you have access to Munin just as much as I do. Show some ****ing initiative.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 03:55   #164
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Re: Interesting change in politics

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I've probably got a different conception of what fencing is to most people to be honest. I think of PA as a game you can play in two ways, you're either idle and don't do much and don't really give a **** what happens or you play for a particular purpose. More generally you can also not really know what you're doing but that really falls under the first category. I respect core galaxies because they're out to strengthen the alliance they're playing for and that's their purpose. A lot of other galaxies are played by people who fall into the first category (or more specifically the part of it where they don't really know what they're doing). The problem I have with the rest of the playerbase is that they do know what they're doing, they know how pa is played and what they choose to give a **** about is either individual accomplishment or the accomplishment of a few friends. On an even more basic level it's about minimising effort. I don't think a lot of people want to play a tough round, they just want to idle through and end up winning, engage in a bout of mutual back-slapping about how great they are and buddypack again for r62.

These aims are not pursued in an honest manner though (I use the term honest fairly loosely and I don't mean it as as much of a slight as it might sound). You have people scattered across different alliances whose primary loyalty is not to that group, although on the surface they'll claim that it is. Instead their loyalty is to their select group of friends. They're really just in those alliances because it's better to be in an alliance than not in terms of their planets. The alliances are used and then discarded if there's a better option out there. Realistically they just don't give a ****.

This is part of what I see as a fairly systemic problem in PA where the game isn't played with any particular goal in mind. At times it seems like people are simply going through the motions and are pretty much just waiting for the next round to start so they can do it all over again. You can see this reflected in the attitude of most people towards winning and going for the win. On some levels winning has become devalued. There have been a lot of rounds of PA and most of the people at the top have won (alliance wise) at least a couple of times. Most people left playing the game who care have shown that they can win and largely they just want to avoid the hard grind that winning sometimes is. Why put in the effort again? I should know, I've been there as much as anyone and it really can be ****ing appalling when the only question facing you is whether or not the other side can get enough planets involved hitting you to slow you down.

Long-term, as in beyond this round, I reckon the game is too stagnant as it is. Nothing seems to happen that hasn't happened before and the reality of how boring this is is the main reason why people don't get more involved. Hopefully pateam will step in and change something fundamental, abolish alliances, abolish galaxies, change the terms on which we decide who wins the round and refresh the game. Unfortunately none of them will ever read this post because, let's be honest, they're as much affected by the malaise that's running through this game as anyone. Even worse none of them play the game or think much about improving it so in all likelihood we'll have another few rounds as dry as every recent round has been. Something to look forward to there.
I dont agree with your point about fenced BP's having loyalty to there BP instead of the alliance. Im sure there are afew of these galaxys around (1:2?) but i'd argue that the majority of fenced BP's do it to avoid incomings but still maintain the loyalty to whichever alliance they're in.

Every BP ive been in has been fenced (although, only once when i BP'd wishmaster/reese/eksero/venox was it intentional and affected which alliances we joined) infact.. I think the most incomings ive ever had in a round has been 5 nights? but my loyalty is always to whichever alliance im in. Its just the best of both worlds, a galaxy with your friends backed up by an alliance with other friends.

I do agree with the amount of stagnation in the rounds though. Alliance wars are futile at best now, most of the top alliances wont act unless theres a block behind them.. even if they have a huge value lead. Something needs to change with PA to reforce the competition and make fighting a necessity to finish top rather than fencing or nap'ing. You know you've got a huge problem in a s'pposed war game, when nap'ing everyone is alot more profitable than war.

I highly doubt the PA Team will ever implement anything drastic now, as they're more afraid of community leaving.. they'd rather keep the game stagnate and maintain roughly the same numbers (although, how long people will put up with playing the same game over and over is arguable). So what i'd suggest is a simple revamp of the capping formula, to include instead of 'value', alliances and the alliances rank. It would maintain the principle of 'protecting the newbies' as they'll be allianceless or in a lowbie alliance, giving there attackers the minimum cap as usual.. while also forcing the bigger alliances to attack other big alliances to get decent caps.

I tried to argue awhile ago, that XP and capping should include galaxy value as well (or instead of) individual planet score but the PA Team flat out said no
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 04:26   #165
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I dont agree with your point about fenced BP's having loyalty to there BP instead of the alliance. Im sure there are afew of these galaxys around (1:2?) but i'd argue that the majority of fenced BP's do it to avoid incomings but still maintain the loyalty to whichever alliance they're in.
That was sort of my point about people who don't really know/care about what they're doing.

Quote:
Every BP ive been in has been fenced (although, only once when i BP'd wishmaster/reese/eksero/venox was it intentional and affected which alliances we joined) infact.. I think the most incomings ive ever had in a round has been 5 nights? but my loyalty is always to whichever alliance im in. Its just the best of both worlds, a galaxy with your friends backed up by an alliance with other friends.
I'm not really blaming anyone for doing it. It's just that there are problems because of it.

Quote:
I do agree with the amount of stagnation in the rounds though. Alliance wars are futile at best now, most of the top alliances wont act unless theres a block behind them.. even if they have a huge value lead. Something needs to change with PA to reforce the competition and make fighting a necessity to finish top rather than fencing or nap'ing. You know you've got a huge problem in a s'pposed war game, when nap'ing everyone is alot more profitable than war.
The game has always been this way really. Why you see it a lot more now is that rounds are a lot shorter than they used to be and the advantages which you gain through a quality memberbase are only really seen late on in the round. Look at this round though. Realistically ND, Subh, Apprime and Ascendancy are all contenders, the first two on their score/position and the latter two on the quality everyone knows they can bring. None of them can afford to fall behind the others, even if all they're saying is that they hope to do well and don't care about winning or whatever.

The point is that war games like PA are this way. If anything the membercap affects this even more. Most people just aren't going to believe, say, a Subh versus an Ascendancy with both possessing roughly similar numbers will result in anything but an Ascendancy victory. So, almost immediately, you've got a contest which won't be picked up on. Most wars nowadays are a matter of numbers and the game itself is more about putting off the wars until you can win them (trust me on this, I was pretty good at it!) than it is about doing anything particularly exciting during the actual war itself.

What most people fail to realise is that this is the essence of war. Not to sound overly pretentious but as sun tzu said “victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.” It's all about timing. Planetarion manages to make this boring by virtue of the limitations it imposes. I mean seriously, I can't even imagine, within the confines of the rules this game now has, what could possibly happen to make this round genuinely compelling.

Quote:
I highly doubt the PA Team will ever implement anything drastic now, as they're more afraid of community leaving.. they'd rather keep the game stagnate and maintain roughly the same numbers (although, how long people will put up with playing the same game over and over is arguable). So what i'd suggest is a simple revamp of the capping formula, to include instead of 'value', alliances and the alliances rank. It would maintain the principle of 'protecting the newbies' as they'll be allianceless or in a lowbie alliance, giving there attackers the minimum cap as usual.. while also forcing the bigger alliances to attack other big alliances to get decent caps.

I tried to argue awhile ago, that XP and capping should include galaxy value as well (or instead of) individual planet score but the PA Team flat out said no
I don't believe fiddling with the numbers will help at all. It'll just be harder to win and still boring. You need to change something fundamental in the way we play the game for people to actually become interested again.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 04:46   #166
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
The point is that war games like PA are this way. If anything the membercap affects this even more. Most people just aren't going to believe, say, a Subh versus an Ascendancy with both possessing roughly similar numbers will result in anything but an Ascendancy victory. So, almost immediately, you've got a contest which won't be picked up on. Most wars nowadays are a matter of numbers and the game itself is more about putting off the wars until you can win them (trust me on this, I was pretty good at it!) than it is about doing anything particularly exciting during the actual war itself.
I'm in two minds about the membercap, I do agree that it affects it alot more and ultimately i would much prefer 2 huge absolutly dominante alliances fighting for #1 than 4 smaller alliances fighting for #1 (two of which are outclassed).

The other side of me thinks, can the PA community be trusted not to over-recruit? creating just one huge alliance. Its also a case of if you've only got 2 huge alliances, it would ruin the game if they decided to nap (which the losing alliance would probably want to do mid/late round), as they could then easily kill every other alliance. I personally dont have that much faith in alliance HC's decisions...

Quote:
What most people fail to realise is that this is the essence of war. Not to sound overly pretentious but as sun tzu said “victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.” It's all about timing. Planetarion manages to make this boring by virtue of the limitations it imposes. I mean seriously, I can't even imagine, within the confines of the rules this game now has, what could possibly happen to make this round genuinely compelling.
The thing with your quote is... how much do you have to win by before you decide to go to war? like what happend earlier, 6 alliances gangbanging one

Quote:
I don't believe fiddling with the numbers will help at all. It'll just be harder to win and still boring. You need to change something fundamental in the way we play the game for people to actually become interested again.
PA Team will never change anything fundamental now, as it's deemed too risky
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 12:12   #167
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Using numbers this early in the round afaik has never been done.
Rofl. How long have you been playing this game ?
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 12:49   #168
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
The thing with your quote is... how much do you have to win by before you decide to go to war? like what happend earlier, 6 alliances gangbanging one
I would highly recommend for anyone to Read Sun Tzu the art of war.
It is a seriously good read and is most informative.

It was about timing and use of excessive force to avoid a Protracted war.

So you might of prefered a 1 on 1 for entertainment value but protracted war is no good for any army/alliance.

Edit... combining posts....

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Its also a case of if you've only got 2 huge alliances, it would ruin the game if they decided to nap (which the losing alliance would probably want to do mid/late round), as they could then easily kill every other alliance. I personally dont have that much faith in alliance HC's decisions...
I see you have learned something from r31
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 13:20   #169
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Re: Interesting change in politics

I've always enjoyed the challenge of getting inc as a pa player, something which I guess makes me a minority in a game where everyone else seems to try their hardest to avoid it. Even with waves uncovered and roids lost you can have a good time dc'ing a gal (I could never dc in a normal ally, way too frustrating and too many loose ends) as long as you feel you have a chance. Heck, I've even had some good experiences in asc fighting against gangbangs where we knew we had little to no chance. And to me, that has changed this round because it seems to be 1 major team up after another leaving you no chance to do a good job defensively. I know that's the whole point of it, but in the past these kinds of incs has been restricted to he #1 or potential #1 alliance, while this round we're seeing it as a standard. Ye apprime were fat and hard to hit, ye DLR were close to #1 roid average, and ye 3:2 needed to get decent inc. These things only happened because everyone avoided them untill they become so hard to roid.

Another sad truth is how no-one cares about the alliance win, and I think that's part of why asc has won so many rounds, because we cared and wanted to win and more often than not it was enough to make it happen. It's a shame that gal rank and planet rank have become the main goals for players, since these can be achieved without being a good player. I'm not sure how to change this trend either, other than fundamental changes (maybe some kind of limit that means only 50% of your fleet can be attacking at once, maybe a capped ratio between attack and defense launches, maybe give bonuses from quests that involve defending xx times in ally) I realise these are all bad ideas that try to treat the problem rather than cure the cause.

After some rounds where fortress gals have been "dominating", it seems that the time for random/fenced gals has come again and not surprisingly it always seem to be the same people in those. I'm not going to argue if it's good or bad as it should be pretty clear which type of gal I prefer and my thought on the subject were expressed pretty accurately earlier in the thread by someone else.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 13:43   #170
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Re: Interesting change in politics

It seems DLR/euph + ND have all hit asc #1 galaxy today so I wonder what will happen next? Will a stronghold galaxy of subh get hit? like the one next to the PATSA galaxy or will normal newb raiding galaxy bashing take part tonight on all accounts?
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 14:52   #171
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
I'm in two minds about the membercap, I do agree that it affects it alot more and ultimately i would much prefer 2 huge absolutly dominante alliances fighting for #1 than 4 smaller alliances fighting for #1 (two of which are outclassed).

The other side of me thinks, can the PA community be trusted not to over-recruit? creating just one huge alliance. Its also a case of if you've only got 2 huge alliances, it would ruin the game if they decided to nap (which the losing alliance would probably want to do mid/late round), as they could then easily kill every other alliance. I personally dont have that much faith in alliance HC's decisions...
The PA community can be trusted to evolve if it's left free to do so. Because that's what happens. Things change, people react to them, things change further. As opposed to the current situation where we have rules in place to prevent anything too dramatic happening. I'm not saying removing the membercap is going to fix PA over night but it's fairly clear that the status quo is only slightly less boring than listening to, er, status quo.

Quote:
The thing with your quote is... how much do you have to win by before you decide to go to war? like what happend earlier, 6 alliances gangbanging one
There is no limit. That's the problem with treating it like an actual wargame as opposed to simply a game.

Quote:
PA Team will never change anything fundamental now, as it's deemed too risky
I don't even think they rationalise it to that extent. It's more like "ooh look at me in charge of things on the internet, I hope this is around for a while so I can feel great about having power on the internet".

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I would highly recommend for anyone to Read Sun Tzu the art of war.
It is a seriously good read and is most informative.
I'd have to disagree. It's all become such commonplace knowledge that reading it at this point your most likely thought is going to be "what a load of derivative crap". Classics may be classics because they were original and pretty good once a time but they're also classics because they're really really ****ing old by now.

Quote:
So you might of prefered a 1 on 1 for entertainment value but protracted war is no good for any army/alliance.
I know half of the people playing this game probably have some sort of military fetish going on but seriously, you're not in charge of an army.
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Last edited by JonnyBGood; 16 Nov 2009 at 14:57.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 15:09   #172
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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I dont agree with your point about fenced BP's having loyalty to there BP instead of the alliance. Im sure there are afew of these galaxys around (1:2?) but i'd argue that the majority of fenced BP's do it to avoid incomings but still maintain the loyalty to whichever alliance they're in.
Heh, not quite sure why your picking out my gal as a target for selfish players - I've been in ND for about 8 rounds now and have been invited by pretty much any ally thats ever been worth playing for. I've been in a position to win numerous rounds on a planet level and when it comes down to it my alliance has been unable to support my push for first - yet i'm still in ND and wouldnt be anywhere else. That sort of loyalty to a second tier alliance is pretty rare these days and i'm pretty annoyed that im being victimised for that loyalty - if you think im some sort of flagship that leeches def all round then your sorely mistaken! I stay with ND because I love the community - I recall you seem to swap allies nearly every round Light! An alliance like ND simply cant handle fortresses, you'll take note that the only two gals with more than 5 ND are down in the echelons of rank 70+.

In response to JBG - Dont go around demonising people style of play as uncaring simply because its different to your own, I personally found my experience in Asc to be the most egotistical and self-consumed alliance that I have been in which I am sure can be conversely described as 'democratic'. It is of my alliances benefit for me to have a strong planet and invest as little time and resources as possible in defending that asset.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 15:26   #173
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Re: Interesting change in politics

I didn't say it was uncaring. I stated that the style of play I was talking about did not have as its priority the success of the various alliances present in the galaxy. Sure it's probably there somewhere in the back of everyone's mind in between whether you want double cheese on your pizza or not but it's at best an after-thought. Who the hell would claim someone like elviz (sorry to have to pick on someone!) doesn't care about the game? He clearly cares about his friends more than his alliance though. Which was my point.

I don't really give a **** what you say you thought about your time in Ascendancy to be honest. I thought you had your own priorities when you played with us and the fact they didn't really coincide with ours was probably a good reason for you leaving. Long-term we'd just have run into the same problems over and over again unless we actually recruited the entirety of your super-friends group into the alliance. Even then it'd have been like recruiting gosu wholesale or something.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 15:27   #174
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Re: Interesting change in politics

Its too easy to defend incoming in my opinion and its too hard for 1 alliance to cover a large galaxy.

Raise armor, lower damage, lower salvage and you'll have less need for blocks when alliances can actually have an impact on the round without resorting to gangbanging.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 15:34   #175
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Re: Interesting change in politics

Most of that has been tried over the rounds and found to be fairly gay. People want to have a chance to defend their roids, not make it even more a contest to see who manages to avoid incoming best.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 15:41   #176
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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I'd have to disagree. It's all become such commonplace knowledge that reading it at this point your most likely thought is going to be "what a load of derivative crap". Classics may be classics because they were original and pretty good once a time but they're also classics because they're really really ****ing old by now.
I do disagree with you on this one ... and is still relevant today as it was 2000 years ago. It application isnt restricted to military warfare, I can also be applied to running a business (where some japanese companies make this compulsary reading for their executives) and there are even different adaptations of the book for running football teams and so forth. but it is personal choice if you want to read it or not.... as good as you are mate, you are no sun tzu.

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I know half of the people playing this game probably have some sort of military fetish going on but seriously, you're not in charge of an army.
I am not in any kind of Role where lives are at stake your absolutely right. however just like any game there is always a strategy and taking this approach often helps.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 15:46   #177
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Most of that has been tried over the rounds and found to be fairly gay. People want to have a chance to defend their roids, not make it even more a contest to see who manages to avoid incoming best.
Then nobody should complain when several allies teamup then. Top Asc gal is under attack right now by 3 alliances, if not for that teamup it wouldn't be possible for any single alliance to hit them.

Galaxies avoid incoming by being too hard for 1 alliance to attack and those teamups which allow them to be attacked are either frowned upon by the community (as evidenced in this thread) or are just so rare during a round that incoming is minimal. You of all people know how powerful fortress gals are in that respect.

If you don't make roiding easier then galaxies need to be made smaller or alliances bigger so that no galaxy is ever unattackable by a single alliances, I think we both know that there isn't enough players to raise the alliance cap so easier roiding or lower galaxy sizes are the only viable options.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 15:47   #178
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Re: Interesting change in politics

I'm not saying it's not relevant Paisley. I'm saying it's like reading an introduction to the alphabet, you'll probably know most of it already.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 15:50   #179
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by tetrac View Post
Then nobody should complain when several allies teamup then. Top Asc gal is under attack right now by 3 alliances, if not for that teamup it wouldn't be possible for any single alliance to hit them.

Galaxies avoid incoming by being too hard for 1 alliance to attack and those teamups which allow them to be attacked are either frowned upon by the community (as evidenced in this thread) or are just so rare during a round that incoming is minimal. You of all people know how powerful fortress gals are in that respect.
I think the problem isn't so much with how things are but more the fact they've been this way for ages and show little sign of changing. The game just isn't that interesting at the minute because the chances of something novel happening are so frighteningly low.

Quote:
If you don't make roiding easier then galaxies need to be made smaller or alliances bigger so that no galaxy is ever unattackable by a single alliances, I think we both know that there isn't enough players to raise the alliance cap so easier roiding or lower galaxy sizes are the only viable options.
I think, as I said, that there has to be a more basic change to the way we play the game.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 15:54   #180
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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I think, as I said, that there has to be a more basic change to the way we play the game.
Well people don't like to see galaxies becoming unattackable so if you need to teamup with several alliances to make an impact then I don't see why thats objectionable?

Game mechanics are driving politics in that regard.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 15:57   #181
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Re: Interesting change in politics

Okay but if there's also a problem with people wanting to be able to defend their roids surely we then need to change something deeper in the game mechanics so it's not a choice between letting galaxies get massive or organising huge gangbangs.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 16:01   #182
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Okay but if there's also a problem with people wanting to be able to defend their roids surely we then need to change something deeper in the game mechanics so it's not a choice between letting galaxies get massive or organising huge gangbangs.
Which is why I suggested making roiding easier

It would also lessen the emphasis on personal achievement if your roids could be taken away much easier at anytime and I think it would force players to invest more effort into their alliances rather than using them for personal gain.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 16:09   #183
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Re: Interesting change in politics

Making planets easier to roid on an individual level is likely to just make it a pure numbers game alliance-wise though, these things have knock-on effects after all! Get rid of galaxies or alliances or change the basic structure of the game in another way. If it looks the same way and people can't play the way they used to they're just going to get pissed off. If it actually looks differently and plays differently people are much more willing to adjust.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 16:19   #184
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Making planets easier to roid on an individual level is likely to just make it a pure numbers game alliance-wise though, these things have knock-on effects after all!
Not at all. All the things that alliances do well would help them keep more roids than other alliances, better defense to save as many roids as they can, better attacks to land as many attacks as efficiently as possible.

Even if that wasn't the case, you make it sound like an alliance with 70 members shouldn't have an advantage over an alliance with 40, if you want to compete on an alliance level then you should be filling the tag.

This game has suffered somewhat from not encouraging alliances to fill tags, it stops them actively looking for new players and helping them learn the game. If the knock-on effect is making alliances fill tags to be competitive then I'm all for it.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 16:22   #185
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Heh, not quite sure why your picking out my gal as a target for selfish players - I've been in ND for about 8 rounds now and have been invited by pretty much any ally thats ever been worth playing for. I've been in a position to win numerous rounds on a planet level and when it comes down to it my alliance has been unable to support my push for first - yet i'm still in ND and wouldnt be anywhere else. That sort of loyalty to a second tier alliance is pretty rare these days and i'm pretty annoyed that im being victimised for that loyalty - if you think im some sort of flagship that leeches def all round then your sorely mistaken! I stay with ND because I love the community - I recall you seem to swap allies nearly every round Light! An alliance like ND simply cant handle fortresses, you'll take note that the only two gals with more than 5 ND are down in the echelons of rank 70+.
First of all it's quite clearly not you she meant to refer to.

Having an ND member of 8 rounds describe the alliance as "second tier" is pretty funny, also considering said alliance is sitting in 2nd place less than 1 mill behind #1 in the current round.

To me you've always been someone with insane exiling luck, good roiding skills and easy rounds, not a good player and this only magnifies my opinion. I'll cut the explanation short by saying the way you play is actually of very little benefit to your alliance, but of great benefit to yourself.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 16:32   #186
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by tetrac View Post
Not at all. All the things that alliances do well would help them keep more roids than other alliances, better defense to save as many roids as they can, better attacks to land as many attacks as efficiently as possible.
People don't like playing rounds which are appallingly fluid though. Obviously some people would do it better than others but if the edges gained are retardedly small people will continue not to give a ****.

Quote:
Even if that wasn't the case, you make it sound like an alliance with 70 members shouldn't have an advantage over an alliance with 40, if you want to compete on an alliance level then you should be filling the tag.
No, I meant that 3 alliances can always teamup and beat the #1 alliance. At some point this needs to stop being the case. "Skill" needs to come into it somewhere.

Quote:
This game has suffered somewhat from not encouraging alliances to fill tags, it stops them actively looking for new players and helping them learn the game. If the knock-on effect is making alliances fill tags to be competitive then I'm all for it.
This game has suffered from a lot of things. The not filling the tag thing is a fairly recent addition, post r30 really where a lot of people decided that running a big alliance was pretty hard and they'd rather be in really small alliances and hopefully avoid the difficulties they'd experienced over the last couple of rounds.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 17:02   #187
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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It seems DLR/euph + ND have all hit asc #1 galaxy today so I wonder what will happen next? Will a stronghold galaxy of subh get hit? like the one next to the PATSA galaxy or will normal newb raiding galaxy bashing take part tonight on all accounts?
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 18:58   #188
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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I fear there may be repercussions for your most treacherous act of treachery!
treacherous act of treachery? are there any other acts of treachery?
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 19:26   #189
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Re: Interesting change in politics

I suspect not.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 20:36   #190
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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First of all it's quite clearly not you she meant to refer to.

Having an ND member of 8 rounds describe the alliance as "second tier" is pretty funny, also considering said alliance is sitting in 2nd place less than 1 mill behind #1 in the current round.

To me you've always been someone with insane exiling luck, good roiding skills and easy rounds, not a good player and this only magnifies my opinion. I'll cut the explanation short by saying the way you play is actually of very little benefit to your alliance, but of great benefit to yourself.
Heh, ND is a second tier alliance - regardless of how well they are doing this round. Asc/Apprime/1up/Exilition are top tier alliances where every member is giving 100%, consistent round challengers - the likes of ND and CT just fill-in now and then when the top tier allies either cant be bothered or are sufficiently gangbanged down to everyone else’s level. To even consider asc/app as being on the same level as ND is ludicrous - however I suppose I should be somewhat complimented that you hold us in such high regard!

In respect to the personal slights your offering towards me I would hardly consider myself hugely lucky in terms of exiles, on the rare occasions that I random I simply cant abide an awful gal and continue to exile until I hit a gal that I am satisfied with (always at strategically planned times, not randomly hoping for the best). Your accusation of 'easy rounds' is debatable but I certainly wouldn’t consider you have had a hard time of things being in the core of the dominating alliance of the PAX period. I have no idea what constitutes a 'good player' these days but I am confident that our opinions on that are vastly different. What criteria are you judging a good player on - if its activity ill confess I often slack in that regard. Considering we've never met or spoken on IRC I suppose I should be flattered that you have such a strong and 'informed' opinion of me. As to your personal style skills of play I can’t comment, I have only vaguely heard of you as one of JBG's henchmen.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 20:40   #191
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Re: Interesting change in politics

Quote:
Asc/Apprime/1up/Exilition are top tier alliances where every member is giving 100%
Clearly you aren't in #ascecndancy
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 20:51   #192
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Heh, ND is a second tier alliance - regardless of how well they are doing this round. Asc/Apprime/1up/Exilition are top tier alliances where every member is giving 100%, consistent round challengers - the likes of ND and CT just fill-in now and then when the top tier allies either cant be bothered or are sufficiently gangbanged down to everyone else’s level. To even consider asc/app as being on the same level as ND is ludicrous - however I suppose I should be somewhat complimented that you hold us in such high regard!
Your first distinction is absurd. Ascendancy quite frequently had between 10 and 30% of the alliance barely playing at all (and sometimes quite simply not playing). I'd agree that Ascendancy, and Apprime, are a cut above ND when it comes to average member quality but alliances like DLR would be as well and I doubt you're including them in the first "tier". Personally I'd just avoid the concept of tiers altogether, needlessly forcing every alliance into particular categories is a pretty pointless idea.

Quote:
Your accusation of 'easy rounds' is debatable but I certainly wouldn’t consider you have had a hard time of things being in the core of the dominating alliance of the PAX period.
In terms of fleet activity, number of incoming hostile fleets, amount of time spent dcing or otherwise working for your alliance golan is so far ahead of you, and pretty much everyone else playing the game, that if he quit PA and never played again you'd probably catch him some time around summer 2034. Golan wasn't one of the people who benefited from Ascendancy being a dominating alliance, he's one of the people who made it a dominating alliance.


Edit: Amusing lie about never having heard of golan though. I know you're not going to go back on it now because you'd look like even more of an idiot but seriously
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 21:21   #193
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Your first distinction is absurd. Ascendancy quite frequently had between 10 and 30% of the alliance barely playing at all (and sometimes quite simply not playing). I'd agree that Ascendancy, and Apprime, are a cut above ND when it comes to average member quality but alliances like DLR would be as well and I doubt you're including them in the first "tier". Personally I'd just avoid the concept of tiers altogether, needlessly forcing every alliance into particular categories is a pretty pointless idea.

In terms of fleet activity, number of incoming hostile fleets, amount of time spent dcing or otherwise working for your alliance golan is so far ahead of you, and pretty much everyone else playing the game, that if he quit PA and never played again you'd probably catch him some time around summer 2034. Golan wasn't one of the people who benefited from Ascendancy being a dominating alliance, he's one of the people who made it a dominating alliance.


Edit: Amusing lie about never having heard of golan though. I know you're not going to go back on it now because you'd look like even more of an idiot but seriously
I really don't care about tiers tbh, Golan was the one calling me out on referring to ND as a 'second tier alliance' which I believe to be true - which you also clearly agree with.

In reference to what you call an amusing lie I stated that 'As to your personal style skills of play I cant comment, I have only vaguely heard of you as one of JBG's henchmen' which is true - yes I have heard of Golan but only vaguely and am unaware of his playing style or achievements.

I'm not quite sure what point your trying to make in terms of the amount of hours/effort Golan has put into asc - wouldn't surprise me if it was alot more than me considering I haven't DC'ed in over 15 rounds as it took up too much time and wasn’t exactly ideal for a British time-zone. I've never been of the belief that the amount of hours you put into PA defines your skills and will freely admit that most players of any worth are a hell of alot more active than me.

Not quite sure why there some vicious crusade against me and my gal-mates going on here, making things personal on the forums seems pretty disrespectful to me which is somewhat sad as if there is anything I have for asc its a grudging respect.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 21:28   #194
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Clearly you aren't in #ascecndancy
Hehe, yeah I know asc are probably the exception to that list - yet most of their members have at some stage given 100% at which stage they are formidabble. Even at 50% effort the average quality of asc members is clearly superior to the majority of alliances.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 21:32   #195
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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I really don't care about tiers tbh, Golan was the one calling me out on referring to ND as a 'second tier alliance' which I believe to be true - which you also clearly agree with.
No, I said the idea of tiers is unnecessary and fairly useless.

Quote:
In reference to what you call an amusing lie I stated that 'As to your personal style skills of play I cant comment, I have only vaguely heard of you as one of JBG's henchmen' which is true - yes I have heard of Golan but only vaguely and am unaware of his playing style or achievements.
That's the part I consider to be an amusing lie.

Quote:
I'm not quite sure what point your trying to make in terms of the amount of hours/effort Golan has put into asc - wouldn't surprise me if it was alot more than me considering I haven't DC'ed in over 15 rounds as it took up too much time and wasn’t exactly ideal for a British time-zone. I've never been of the belief that the amount of hours you put into PA defines your skills and will freely admit that most players of any worth are a hell of alot more active than me.
You said "easier round" (well, actually golan said it first and then you accused him of having easy rounds). Skill wasn't in question there at all.

Quote:
Not quite sure why there some vicious crusade against me and my gal-mates going on here, making things personal on the forums seems pretty disrespectful to me which is somewhat sad as if there is anything I have for asc its a grudging respect.
It's not like anyone's accusing you of murdering babies here, just speaking for myself all I'm saying is I don't think a number of people, some of whom are definitely in your gal, play PA with the alliance they're in as their main priority.


I'm aware this is all coming across as fairly harsh and I really didn't mean it that way to begin with so sorry!
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 21:46   #196
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Re: Interesting change in politics

Lukey has gone from fighting alongside me on the lightside in r22 to now being on the darkside
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 22:10   #197
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Re: Interesting change in politics

I remember Lukey's concept of alliance 'play' when I was in Newdawn.

It involved him attacking with CR/BS and having FR as anti FI/CO incoming. It only took him about 700 ticks to get a defence fleet. He adopted this style because his gal was going completely FR defence against FI/CO incoming. His galaxy had 1 Newdawn planet in and as such offered bugger all as a whole to ND.

Granted Lukey you generally achieve pretty decent planet rankings, but lets be honest here. All you do is accumulate score for the ND tag without actively getting involved in anything 'serious'.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 22:16   #198
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Re: Interesting change in politics

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeyLove View Post
Hehe, yeah I know asc are probably the exception to that list - yet most of their members have at some stage given 100% at which stage they are formidabble. Even at 50% effort the average quality of asc members is clearly superior to the majority of alliances.
I actually view Ascendancy's inactivity as a strength rather than a weakness (although I descended to a level where I became a burden, so now I just don't play). Simple reason is burnout. Personally I think the amount of activity Apprime commit to defence, particularly early on is mad. When the tough times came, we usually had the energy to cope with it rather than give up.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 22:34   #199
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Re: Interesting change in politics

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Originally Posted by Game^ View Post
I remember Lukey's concept of alliance 'play' when I was in Newdawn.

It involved him attacking with CR/BS and having FR as anti FI/CO incoming. It only took him about 700 ticks to get a defence fleet. He adopted this style because his gal was going completely FR defence against FI/CO incoming. His galaxy had 1 Newdawn planet in and as such offered bugger all as a whole to ND.

Granted Lukey you generally achieve pretty decent planet rankings, but lets be honest here. All you do is accumulate score for the ND tag without actively getting involved in anything 'serious'.
I believe you've played one round at most in ND, so should really not an expert on my level of contributions to an ally in general. I cant recall the round your refering to in particular but I am confident that I used my CRBS to def on numerous occasions - if I didnt I would be swiftly kicked from ND. In reference to 'nothing serious' I've shockingly been BC'ing pretty much every other night this round! (Whether you regard that as 'serious' or not is a different matter, as serious as i'm ever gonna get anyway!)

Quote:
I actually view Ascendancy's inactivity as a strength rather than a weakness (although I descended to a level where I became a burden, so now I just don't play). Simple reason is burnout. Personally I think the amount of activity Apprime commit to defence, particularly early on is mad. When the tough times came, we usually had the energy to cope with it rather than give up.
I totally agree.
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Unread 16 Nov 2009, 23:49   #200
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Re: Interesting change in politics

On the thread more generally:

Competent defence by people that use resources efficiently and most important of all, treat defence fleets as if they were their own and don't get them killed is one of the cornerstones of an effective alliance. If you don't make defence possible or viable as an art, then you just turn it into a boring numbers game and pretty much a situation where people just build attack fleets, as there's no point trying to defend. On top of that, it means people have to be disciplined enough not to crash. Because we have viable defence, we have 'better' and 'worse' alliances and I think that's a good thing.

Another element is metagame (politics). In the past few rounds when JBG has been in charge, I'd say Ascendancy has pursued something that I would coin 'negative politics'. This has basically involved not hitting alliances who can't win but can block your path to #1 (DLR is a prime example), and to basically let your rivals do the hard work for you by upsetting them, even at the cost of a roid lead. If you're aiming for #1, going for alliances that aren't capable of finishing #1 while being a threat to you makes no sense. Never mind the fact that if your opponent X has been hitting alliance Y but you haven't, your negotiations with Y are a hell of a lot easier.

This has meant that politics usually ended up swinging naturally in our favour, with us having very few enemies except those who really counted, so they just ended up getting shredded. Under JBG's leadership we actually had very few titanic struggles, mainly because his strategy was so effective. Last round was an absolute masterclass by JBG - Apprime were shit generally but politically they were dead by the pt 400 to 500 period.

I'm with JBG on changing the game radically. It would **** up most people's game, but they'd have to think up new ideas and ways of being successful.

(P.S. screw you mz)
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