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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 01:53   #1
JonnyBGood
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Implement some form of geography

I think planetarion is way cooler with some kind of geography, it was a great part of the early rounds of pa and at that stage it did actually help with integrating new players into the game. It's almost always interesting and worst case scenario it's normally just mildly irrelevant. Now really small clusters sort of suck so what I'd propose would be the division of the universe into 4-6 clusters (so 20-25 gals) and reducing the travel-time for in-cluster attacking by 1 tick. This would, obviously, make in-cluster attacking pretty ****ing good. However I can see this being good for the game as well to be honest, a bit of variation and something different to try and deal with would be cool.

I'd be interested if anyone else had any alternative suggestions on ways to bring back geography into the game.
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 01:57   #2
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Re: Implement some form of geography

I would agree with this, when I first started playing my gal was inactive, but the when I found the cluster alliance channel I got to meet alot of people and received alot of help to learn how to play. People are more patient with newbies this way I think, since there not in there gal hurting there gal score.
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 02:07   #3
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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Originally Posted by Annie View Post
I would agree with this, when I first started playing my gal was inactive, but the when I found the cluster alliance channel I got to meet alot of people and received alot of help to learn how to play. People are more patient with newbies this way I think, since there not in there gal hurting there gal score.
In fairness I'm really not sure if this would be the same now. There was a genuine reward for helping newbies in your cluster as they might then become active and defend you later on during the round. This is now, due to the change in rules governing defence missions, impossible. Now I'm pretty sure that if there were reasonably accessible cluster channels there'd be some people in there willing to give advice and help people out a bit but I really wouldn't be too sure on how it'd work overall. Personally I'm in favour of my proposal because I think it'd make attacking easier, decrease the importance of alliances and just generally freshen things back up a bit. I also believe in general it's a sensible addition which could lead on to other interesting things being brought into the game. A strategy game can always do with a wider range of ingame geography. Currently we have galaxies with your friends and the wider universe and that's it. Having a narrower sense of geography ingame than we had when we started off ten years ago is ****ing ridiculous.
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 03:02   #4
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Re: Implement some form of geography

While I am not necessarily against more interesting geography one of the major reasons this type of geography was removed was because invariably the top 3 or 4 galaxies made roid farms out of all of the rest. I would think that anything that is done with geography should try and limit this problem.
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 03:29   #5
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
While I am not necessarily against more interesting geography one of the major reasons this type of geography was removed was because invariably the top 3 or 4 galaxies made roid farms out of all of the rest. I would think that anything that is done with geography should try and limit this problem.
I find it difficult to believe this could happen again in a game with hardcored tag defence limits within 1100 ticks. Certainly not before the very last week. Given the added interest it provides (and the fact this would actually be something possible to implement next round, as opposed to a broader geographic element which would need more coding) I'd view it as a totally worthwhile experiment.
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 03:30   #6
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Re: Implement some form of geography

I think this is a great suggestion, geography should indeed play a bigger role in PA.

JBG, what do you think of going even further; to actually create a 3D map and to use various (geometric) mathematical formulaes to calculate a eta bonus/penalty from between (per say) -2 to +2, depending on distance. I guess the greatest challenge will be to teach Cin how to calc a distance between two points within a sphere.

Also it would be possible to add other awesome stuff, such as drift. This will allow for tactical conditions, dis/advantages, to change continuously. I suppose a start could be to create single point galaxies inside a sphere that drifts around in a spinning motion. 1 round = 1 or 2 rotations, so that over a good 7 weeks, everyone will have the same position.
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 03:44   #7
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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Originally Posted by HellKicker View Post
JBG, what do you think of going even further; to actually create a 3D map and to use various (geometric) mathematical formulaes to calculate a eta bonus/penalty from between (per say) -2 to +2, depending on distance. I guess the greatest challenge will be to teach Cin how to calc a distance between two points within a sphere.
Obviously the most straightforward option is just to wrap the universe around so c1 is connected to the last cluster. It'd be a little bit counter-intuitive though.

Quote:
Also it would be possible to add other awesome stuff, such as drift. This will allow for tactical conditions, dis/advantages, to change continuously. I suppose a start could be to create single point galaxies inside a sphere that drifts around in a spinning motion. 1 round = 1 or 2 rotations, so that over a good 7 weeks, everyone will have the same position.
I guess this would require a massive recode. It'd be interesting enough though yeah.

I think the biggest problem overall is the travel-times involved in cluster warfare. Planetarion has, almost since the beginning, been a rather harsh game. You need your fleet to play and without it you've virtually useless. It's relatively easy to lose and almost in order to compensate for it takes 7 hours before a fleet which launched at you after you went online can land. This is such a deeply embedded principle that the last time cluster geography got an attacking bonus added we had to raise universal travel times to compensate. A change which would shorten travel-times down to 5 ticks would be massive (and deeply unpopular with the hyper-conservative retard brigade in #alliances). It'd just be a very different game. Although the difference wouldn't be massive at first (and I definitely don't think a one tick drop would be even vaguely significant given the nature of the game right now) it would signify a rather large change in game direction, and one which I feel pateam are massively unlikely to take.

The alternative approach, of raising the "normal" travel-times again is, I feel, gay. Longer travel-times are a) boring b) make fleet activity less important and c) are more likely to lead to stagnation for obvious reasons.
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 04:03   #8
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Re: Implement some form of geography

So in the end, PA is simply not ready for a change like this. That is, I guess, everyone except Ascendancy. No point in even suggesting a change like this then.

In that case, i'll strongly support your suggestion to lower the amount of clusters and reimplement the cluster tt bonus. Seems like a more realistic change. An idea might also be to reimplement parallell bonuses, and make the cumulative (i believe they were back in the days).
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 04:17   #9
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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Originally Posted by HellKicker View Post
So in the end, PA is simply not ready for a change like this. That is, I guess, everyone except Ascendancy. No point in even suggesting a change like this then.
....
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 05:11   #10
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Re: Implement some form of geography

As Monroe pointed out - lower eta for attacking in cluster simply means that the strong galaxies will (not might) farm the weaker galaxies in their cluster. Fun for the few - not so much for the farms.

(That's the reason that cluster eta bonuses were restricted to defence only in later rounds).
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 08:46   #11
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
As Monroe pointed out - lower eta for attacking in cluster simply means that the strong galaxies will (not might) farm the weaker galaxies in their cluster. Fun for the few - not so much for the farms.

(That's the reason that cluster eta bonuses were restricted to defence only in later rounds).
The opposite of this is that the 'better' targets (aka fat juicy planets in small gals) get attention from the whole universe. This might just spread the roidfrenzy around more.

This could kill weaker galaxies earlier on.
This also could mean that 'medium' galaxies last longer as the attention is more spread out.

I am not sure if I am in favour or not, I'd just like to point out that it is not such a one sided coin as some of the posters above me imply it to be.
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 09:28   #12
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Re: Implement some form of geography

I am pro-geography.
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 11:39   #13
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Re: Implement some form of geography

I suggest a hexagonal based geography. Think bee hives. Just because i think it would be cool :P
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 11:43   #14
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Re: Implement some form of geography

I am pro implementing clusters again in some form, not really sure a complex hexagonal or "3D map" is the way to do it though.
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 14:14   #15
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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I am pro-geography.
Ditto, even though I'd prefer the stuff we two discussed over whatever solution that involves clusters and galaxies.
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Unread 15 Mar 2010, 14:50   #16
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
As Monroe pointed out - lower eta for attacking in cluster simply means that the strong galaxies will (not might) farm the weaker galaxies in their cluster. Fun for the few - not so much for the farms.

(That's the reason that cluster eta bonuses were restricted to defence only in later rounds).
1) Cluster eta bonuses were not only restricted to defence in later rounds. Rounds 21 and 22 at least saw reduced eta for attacking in-cluster

2) I like your incontrovertible statement with absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever. Good stuff. I'll claim the opposite and offer just as much evidence.


In general this would be very different due to the fact that in-cluster defence has been coded out though. And if 20 odd galaxies can't team up to whack the top gals in their cluster with reduced eta if they're just farming them around the clock they're not going to be active enough to do anything anyways. The key to the game isn't molly coddling low-ranked players, it's encouraging them to become involved in whatever way you can and offering them the opportunity to do so.
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 03:15   #17
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Re: Implement some form of geography

I played in all of the rounds which had reduced in cluster eta - and I've been on both sides of the farming. So I speak from experience. If you can think of any reason that I'd lie about it please share it with me.

Having said that, the experience was better when we had massive clusters (by current standards) - the cluster wars back then were bigger (and more fun) than the whole game is now.

As for R21/22 - I remember arguing against the reintroduction of in-cluster attack ETA bonuses back then too.
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 08:45   #18
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Re: Implement some form of geography

yes for incluster wars !

they were fun, even though i remember beeing farmed constantly

it adds a game in the game, as it is not all about your alliance or gal, but for domination of a whole cluster

but ofc incluster def eta needs to be lowered aswell then

hail the cluster alliances !!!!
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 11:25   #19
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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I played in all of the rounds which had reduced in cluster eta - and I've been on both sides of the farming. So I speak from experience. If you can think of any reason that I'd lie about it please share it with me.
I'm not saying you're lying. But your personal experience, and/or inaccurate memory, doesn't necessarily reflect what happened in every cluster in pa. I know, from my recent enough work looking up pa history of a couple of fairly notable clusters in the early round in which the c-alliance included everyone and didn't break for the whole round.

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Having said that, the experience was better when we had massive clusters (by current standards) - the cluster wars back then were bigger (and more fun) than the whole game is now.
One would like to point out that I was proposing scaling back up the size of clusters to match the earlier rounds.

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As for R21/22 - I remember arguing against the reintroduction of in-cluster attack ETA bonuses back then too.
Sure, but my point was that it was hardly the end of pa which destroyed newbies and their hopes to ever play the game.
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 12:29   #20
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Re: Implement some form of geography

I accept that your experience may have been different to mine - but you must admit that cluster alliances which included every galaxy were pretty rare - in rounds where there was an eta bonus for attacks.

I did notice your suggestion of up to 25 galaxies per cluster - that would help but not (in my view) enough. As you'll remember, we had 100s of clusters in R4 (ahhhhh..... those were the days).

Anyway, I still feel that having private (presumably well organised) galaxies able to attack in cluster at an eta that precludes out-of-cluster alliance defence isn't a viable option - even though it would (in your own words) "make in-cluster attacking pretty ****ing good".
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 12:41   #21
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Re: Implement some form of geography

The problem here I think is that hardcore players will always be significantly better (I'd estimate by a factor 10 or more) at finding defence at 3am against eta 6 incomings than more casual players, even if those casual players are on as high an end of the activity spectrum as can be reasonably expected spectrum, say, checking just before sleep and right after waking up, and then every 2 ticks throughout the day.

What I would be interested in is hearing what sort of reasoning hardcore players would use to decide against farming in-cluster, because I can't think of any (which means most people can't either), except perhaps moral reservations against bashing, which are quite frankly useless.
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 12:45   #22
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
I accept that your experience may have been different to mine - but you must admit that cluster alliances which included every galaxy were pretty rare - in rounds where there was an eta bonus for attacks.
Indeed they were but even still there was a middle-ground between all gals in cluster NAPed and top 3/4 gals farming everyone. Some people might remember a few rounds where the cluster war(s) basically lasted the entire round.

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I did notice your suggestion of up to 25 galaxies per cluster - that would help but not (in my view) enough. As you'll remember, we had 100s of clusters in R4 (ahhhhh..... those were the days).
As I remember we had parallels in r4 so we effectively had hundreds of galaxies per "cluster", not hundreds of clusters. And the bonds forged in that round heavily influenced the course of PA.

Quote:
Anyway, I still feel that having private (presumably well organised) galaxies able to attack in cluster at an eta that precludes out-of-cluster alliance defence isn't a viable option - even though it would (in your own words) "make in-cluster attacking pretty ****ing good".
I'm rather curious as to how pa will divide this round in terms of private/random galaxies. I mean, let's be ****ing honest here, how many newbies are actually going to progress if they're in a shit galaxy? You need to make it easier for them, and encourage them, to progress onto the next level, not make their 20 minutes per day in some utter shithole slightly more tolerable.
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 12:47   #23
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Re: Implement some form of geography

You've put your finger on it there. I've always had a problem with bashing (regardless of which end of it I've been on) and so I'm against anything that makes this more profitable.
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 12:49   #24
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
What I would be interested in is hearing what sort of reasoning hardcore players would use to decide against farming in-cluster, because I can't think of any (which means most people can't either), except perhaps moral reservations against bashing, which are quite frankly useless.
I think there'd be an initial burst of it, pre tick 200 or so. After that time I'd expect alliances to use most of their firepower each night on whatever targets they'd have, meaning there wouldn't be a massive amount of in-cluster farming purely due to alliance priorities. But yeah, I want the opportunity to be there and the opportunity for the middle-lower (seriously, the bottom ranked galaxies might as well not be there and you could stick them all in a giant gal named farm-land for convenience) ranked gals to hit back if they organise themselves just a tiny bit.
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 12:52   #25
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
You've put your finger on it there. I've always had a problem with bashing (regardless of which end of it I've been on) and so I'm against anything that makes this more profitable.
"Bashing", in the sense of hitting down the food chain, is an essential part of any war-game like this. Bashing was a huge part of pa throughout its history. You can't rewrite the game if you want to keep on playing it and not another entirely different game. You just want to make it sufficiently uninteresting and non-demotivating for those on the other end, for it to become far less relevant.
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 12:58   #26
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Re: Implement some form of geography

What it would bring back is some sort of genuine diplomacy, which is all this game has ever really been about.

With significantly more to be gained and lost in cluster the incentive to get out there and make friends becomes much greater.
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 13:06   #27
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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Lots of valid points.
Yes, I remember the cluster wars which lasted the full round - and (as I mentioned earlier) they were fun.

You're right (of course) about the parallels. That's the point I was trying (and failing) to make - that with a large number of galaxies per cluster in-cluster wars can be a viable part of the game. I still don't think that 20/25 galaxies per cluster is enough.

I wish that I had the answer to the problem of how to get "newbies" involved in a positive way - but I do know that being farmed to death isn't a great incentive to stick around and progress.
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 13:19   #28
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Re: Implement some form of geography

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
"Bashing", in the sense of hitting down the food chain, is an essential part of any war-game like this. Bashing was a huge part of pa throughout its history. You can't rewrite the game if you want to keep on playing it and not another entirely different game. You just want to make it sufficiently uninteresting and non-demotivating for those on the other end, for it to become far less relevant.
I suppose bashing (in some form) is inevitable. I'd just like to see its effects minimized. If it's less profitable for the attacker then it will happen less - and if it's less devastating for the target he'll be less likely to quit.

That doesn't mean that I want an entirely different game though - and I certainly don't want it to be less interesting. I think that the enjoyment and interest that we used to get from this game was primarily from the community (IRC) aspect. Much of this has been removed by the implementation of features such as pre-launch and queuing of res/cons. When there's no need to be online there's less interaction between members of galaxies, clusters and alliances. Still, we're not likely to see those changes reversed now.
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Unread 16 Mar 2010, 14:18   #29
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Re: Implement some form of geography

It is already less profitable for the attacker: the XP formula reduces the score benefit while (more importantly) value based capping reduces roid cap.

That said, I've always thought the value based capping formula as it's implemented now is fairly ineffective. Cap doesn't halve until you're close to your bashlimit.
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Unread 18 Mar 2010, 16:42   #30
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Re: Implement some form of geography

think cluster reduced tt in attack and def and thus wars a brilliant idea to bring back ..it would throw an extra curveball into the same alliances winning every round and what with the private gals coming back. it could b only chance some of the smaller allis have of giving it some to the big alliances and their private gals- yes i know the smaller allis r in private gals too.

or even why not do something totally different and divide clusters down the middle..odd galaxies r alligned n even r alligned- so odd can attack even and odd can defend odd with the reduced tt for both attack and defend within a cluster. so u get a game in a game for those wanting to take part and forge cluster alliances albeit a bit forced.. reason im suggesting a forced bringing together which galaxies do not have to be involved in is this 2nd idea...read on.
at start of round, a date is announced ,lets say midway through the round or even 2/3 named 'the great purge' which is when kind of like a shuffle will take place within clusters where a snapshot of gals ranking within cluster is taken and then shuffled so 1st,,3rd,5th,etc are hardwired allied and 2nd,4th,6th etc ..this would mean enemies would have to become friends with enemies and should help stop the farming.
i know this would mean a massive rewrite of game but i think it would be fun...even if u view what i say as total hogwash, im all for just bringing back reduced cluster tt in both attack and def and let a natural equalisation occur where some r farmed n some succeed.

cant remember which round it was but i remember being in cluster alliance p10dn and we went up against p10a and kicked their butts -it was bloody good fun and added an extra dimension to the game
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