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Unread 24 Dec 2009, 17:17   #101
HaNzI
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
you basicly said we did, did you hit us for 4 days? never noticed any of it
You talked about shipfarming, thats something else. You cant prove any of it while i handed over substansial proof that the support planet was broken. You call people cheaters without evidence, i call them cheaters after gathering evidence. I think we represent 2 different definitions of "proper work"

We hit you monday-sunday, and ofcourse you didnt notice, you were happily kept in the dark, offering some defence now and then. Maybe you didnt even have BC status ingame, because then you could easily have checked the waves marked "covered" with no green fleets because the defence was out of tag.
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Unread 24 Dec 2009, 18:52   #102
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Wouter makes me lol.
Hanzi, really, stop argueing with him.
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Unread 24 Dec 2009, 19:39   #103
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Re: Congrats Apprime

well to me if a planet signs up, sends 3 fleets to the same gal & never logs in after, it sure looks like farming.
in cardi's case, the guy in question first defends on cardi's orders & later crashes all his fleet while cardi steals it

sure for mh its not enough to close someone but to the rest of the pa com its pretty clear what has happened

& everyone had acces to see incoming on us, you sure your intel on us wasnt fail ? cause seriously we never get hit for a week with decent incs :|

we got hit twice earlier with 120-160 fleets but since then we hardly got to more then 75-80, especially not for more then 2 days in a row

so please show me that mighty proof of yours hanzi, that we had zillions of oot defence
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Unread 24 Dec 2009, 20:30   #104
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Re: Congrats Apprime

other then what hanzi is trying to proof it does show you had a shit easy round. how did you ever manage not to win it? I mean how hard did you fail?

Also for the cardi accusations, apart from the fact this is the first time i hear from it (and any suspicion of that scale usually finds its way to #asc), I rather see you back it up with some proper proof. Newsies. coords. Names. Times. Dates. etc.
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Unread 24 Dec 2009, 23:08   #105
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Simple solution to the out of tag argument .... just ban it via hardcoding.

That way Phantom support planets / who received the most out of Tag def arguments no longer becomes a factor.
I am sure it will take the strain off MHs.

Fear not it isn't the end of the world I am sure Cardi and company will still have the VNC access to fall back on.
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 01:04   #106
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Simple solution to the out of tag argument .... just ban it via hardcoding.

That way Phantom support planets / who received the most out of Tag def arguments no longer becomes a factor.
I am sure it will take the strain off MHs.

Fear not it isn't the end of the world I am sure Cardi and company will still have the VNC access to fall back on.
alliance tags hard coded are already silly. Do not force me to play a way you think is 'good'.
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 03:15   #107
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
other then what hanzi is trying to proof it does show you had a shit easy round. how did you ever manage not to win it? I mean how hard did you fail?
hmz,

we were top avg in score for a long time, untill neroon lost his phone and we all stopped caring.

hard to win a round with 10 members less then the best alliance in the round. (yes apprime, as i said before you were the best ally this round)

Quote:
you were happily kept in the dark, offering some defence now and then. Maybe you didnt even have BC status ingame, because then you could easily have checked the waves marked "covered" with no green fleets because the defence was out of tag.
Big Lol

honestly again
Big lol

I bet you wouter has a bigger clue about what was happening in Euph then u did.

Quote:
That attack on neroon the first time had 1 of the waves covered solely by DLR. Second time we landed on him and killed his fleet.
You attacked neroon for 2 days, i covered the incs first day with in ally defence (100% yes) and helped the second one. yes there was OOT tag defence there, hell ever single inc we threw at app was covered by oot def by asc/vsn so stop being the ideal boyscout and leave the oot tag out of this. When you fight a block war oot defence is a normal thing to happen, as no alliance can fight off several other alliances. (imo this prolly is one of the reasons why mh didn't really act on oot defence, there was just no other way)

Quote:
Second time quoted, this time for you Berten.

You landed some roids on us alright, pure xan waves against pure phantom def landed every time, and there was some 300-400k valueloss for 150-200 roids that landed. So if you got roids in those first 3 days, which you claim, then you must have paid a lot of value for them. After the 3 first days ND tagged along and we were fighting 3 alliances, so the defsituation was different. Cardi knew we couldnt cover everything so he chose to deny DLR roids, which meant that euphoria landed a few roids. This was repeated the following 4 days aswell when it was mainly
dlr/euph/subh/nd hitting us. DLR landed nothing while the 3 other alliances landed some roids, and they still landed on pure phantom def.

So you see we could have denied Euphoria roids instead, and hit them back first instead of DLR, but honestly we think DLR are miles better then Euph so it was a tactical thing.
So, now you are telling me you could have stopped Euph and let dlr roid your ass? Ofcourse you could have, would it have changed anything tough? app planets getting roided, euph/dlr planets not getting roided ...

While you act all tough etc, you clearly still have no clue how things went on in our side of the block. Hell you don't even have a clue why the block got formed. And no i'll not go into detail, i'd rather keep you on the ignorant side of the universe.

Quote:
Maybe if you had not paid so much value for roids....
**sigh - I urge you to take a look at the stats, try some bcalcs, I take 100% blame for giving wrong stats suggestions, I just like xan too much.

anyways as i said about 10 posts ago.

App had a well deserved victory, they were the best ally, and the universe will have another chance in 2010.

We made it clear we wanted you dead, we attacked you and did everything in our possibilities to beat you, we failed. Cudos to you
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 04:14   #108
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Re: Congrats Apprime

You were only top average score after a week of apprime bashing, and you stayed there because we hit subh/dlr first

and the OOT def, i kept JGPs and newsscans in plenty and made sure our side stayed on the right side of the rule. JGPs dont lie and every time it was a wave deffed with eta9 fr/de after launch it clearly was OOT def. This was supported by taking substansial amounts of newsscans every 36 ticks on a lot of planets, including every single DLR planet. Its called proof, and with that in my hand i can be as big a boyscout as i want.

Everything else in your post is really not worth commenting
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 11:09   #109
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
alliance tags hard coded are already silly. Do not force me to play a way you think is 'good'.
There is nothing good about VNC support planets.... It is the only way I can think of that render random def planets from being useful.
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 11:30   #110
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Re: Congrats Apprime

we were #1 in score since around 10th of november or sth and kept it like that until 10-12th of december, with no exceptions.. u started to hit us, and managed to succeed in 3 days, which gave us around 4% roidloss (of which 1 day we kicked a member, which took the roidloss to that %-tage)

to me it seems like we managed very well against u guys and didnt have a problem defending ure incs
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 11:57   #111
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
There is nothing good about VNC support planets.... It is the only way I can think of that render random def planets from being useful.
so you want to ruin the game fun of a serious ammount of people who play in this community 'just for fun' to stop 1 or 2 vnc accounts?

Really, for instance in round 30 we had a few out of tag planets in Ascendancy who were being played by genuine players who just attacked every now and then, scanned for Asc and send some out of tag defence with FI/CO that shot FR/DE and FR/DE that shot BS/CR. I really do not see what you are trying to do, unless you know that it is flawed and still want to do it anyway. (As I assume you do not want to do flawed things).

It kinda reminds me of the crusade and massacre in Beziers. A cathar city (yes, the real Cathars lived there!) they were being crusaded against by the Roman Catholic church. When entering the city, the order came, when asked how to distinguish between good Catholics and Cathars: 'Kill them all, God will recognize his children.'
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 12:30   #112
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
we weren't strong enough to bring down 3 alliances.
Loving how you're trying to make it sound as though you're outnumbered when it was you who went 2v1 against Apprime and then also felt the need to bring in another 4 allies for support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
we are talking about the phantoms which cardi got by cheating right ?
& what about all those 7 6 planets that had a planet signup for donations ?
hanzi stop talking about cheating when quite some people in your alliance blatenly shipfarmed.
Back up your accusations with proof or shut the **** up
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 12:39   #113
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
so you want to ruin the game fun of a serious ammount of people who play in this community 'just for fun' to stop 1 or 2 vnc accounts?
Whilst I Appreciate Newt's honesty in the plea to the multihunters thread. Thats usually the result of having Folk ... "Playing Just for Fun"

If you are saying that there are only 1 or 2 VNC accounts played in PA you are either naive or have a vested interest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
Really, for instance in round 30 we had a few out of tag planets in Ascendancy who were being played by genuine players who just attacked every now and then, scanned for Asc and send some out of tag defence with FI/CO that shot FR/DE and FR/DE that shot BS/CR. I really do not see what you are trying to do, unless you know that it is flawed and still want to do it anyway. (As I assume you do not want to do flawed things).
If anything It would enhance the game for players who only get def from ally members (in tag) and galaxy. Also Prefer to use BS/CR instead of having to go FI/CO heavy to counter the effects of out of tag deffing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
It kinda reminds me of the crusade and massacre in Beziers. A cathar city (yes, the real Cathars lived there!) they were being crusaded against by the Roman Catholic church. When entering the city, the order came, when asked how to distinguish between good Catholics and Cathars: 'Kill them all, God will recognize his children.'
Yea ... theam's Christmas sermon. The problem is MHs Cant 100% determine if they are righteous or not. so why should the players who dont cheat suffer damnation?
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 13:19   #114
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Really this is all about whether you value having a 100% watertight game or people playing the game as freely as they want to.

Hardcoding is only a partial solution. Support planets can still attack and scan and no doubt will adapt by having purely attacking fleets to escort those in tag.

In my view we are better off having freedom as VNC is banned anyway. Obviously it's very hard to detect but that doesn't mean we should destroy aspects of our gameplay to crack down on it. If you're opposed to support planets, I'd like to see how you classify one alliance defending another out of political and military necessity to win a war. Because if you stop that, then you're destroying a significant part of metagame.
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 13:29   #115
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Disabling OOT (and OOG?) def with hardcoding sounds kinda only way to make VNC and support planets less profitable. I like the idea tbh and doesn't wonder why ppl in certain alliances are against it.. *rolleyes*
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 13:55   #116
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Re: Congrats Apprime

The assumpion that everyone who disagree with you must be cheating is nothing short of pathetic. Get the **** out.
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 17:33   #117
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Hardcoding a limit on oot def isn't that bad, hardcoding against oot def in total is just absurd. This game is tactically limited as it is in these aspects, no good will come from making it worse. I want the freedom to defend whoever the hell I want for whatever reason I can think of, obvious tactical advantage in times of war not withstanding.

I don't think the game needs to change to sort this problem, but perhaps the way of hunting these problems down and dealing with them afterwards could do with being a bit more public and transparent.
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 19:15   #118
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by neroon View Post
we were #1 in score since around 10th of november or sth and kept it like that until 10-12th of december, with no exceptions.. u started to hit us, and managed to succeed in 3 days, which gave us around 4% roidloss (of which 1 day we kicked a member, which took the roidloss to that %-tage)

to me it seems like we managed very well against u guys and didnt have a problem defending ure incs
not the first 260 ticks then, and ill tell you a little funny secret. when we were hit by all those alliances we asked old players who had no accounts to sign up and join our tag without playing, so we added 8 players with 30 roids, reducing our average score and roids drastically

So really, according to LDK we kept top average score for another week well into tick 450-500 and we checked up on it quite often and had a good laugh about it. We still kept getting incs though despite the low average roids and score so we kicked those planets out later anyways. I hope i did not hurt your feelings.


And again, you had so much def from out of tag and we only attacked you with cr/bs so ofcourse we didnt land much... If you read above i explained in detail what my intentions were, to attack euphoria nonstop monday-sunday to eventually stop defence from out of tag, but multihunters didnt do their job so it failed
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 21:02   #119
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The assumpion that everyone who disagree with you must be cheating is nothing short of pathetic. Get the **** out.
I didn't say that i think everyone is cheating who disagree with the oot/oog deffing thing and i don't think that way. I just think that most of people play with their friends and ppl they want to play with in same tag and with some in same bp which usually has players from different tags. So if you have mainly all your friends in same tag and galaxy can't see much need to use your fleets elsewhere. But thats just my pow.

Recruiting idle planets for lower avg stats didn't really work as the block finally kept attacking you instead of staring at the stats too much and stopping the attacks like the uni/block usually does. And it also gave to some ppl in Euph morale boost (or what ever you want to call it). I've said many times that best way to play is to attack Asc from PT0 untill the very last tick no matter what they say or do and this was first time the block went more that way. Lit bit more tweaking and it's better than perfect.
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Unread 25 Dec 2009, 21:47   #120
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Kafir View Post
I didn't say that i think everyone is cheating who disagree with the oot/oog deffing thing and i don't think that way. I just think that most of people play with their friends and ppl they want to play with in same tag and with some in same bp which usually has players from different tags. So if you have mainly all your friends in same tag and galaxy can't see much need to use your fleets elsewhere. But thats just my pow.

Recruiting idle planets for lower avg stats didn't really work as the block finally kept attacking you instead of staring at the stats too much and stopping the attacks like the uni/block usually does. And it also gave to some ppl in Euph morale boost (or what ever you want to call it). I've said many times that best way to play is to attack Asc from PT0 untill the very last tick no matter what they say or do and this was first time the block went more that way. Lit bit more tweaking and it's better than perfect.

Apart from the fact that Apprime will then kill you even harder, it is perfect, yes.
Stop sucking, start improving and start playing for the win yourselves.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 00:56   #121
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafir View Post
Disabling OOT (and OOG?) def with hardcoding sounds kinda only way to make VNC and support planets less profitable. I like the idea tbh and doesn't wonder why ppl in certain alliances are against it.. *rolleyes*
Oh yeah, very subtle. I refer to my previous post.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 02:20   #122
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Really this is all about whether you value having a 100% watertight game or people playing the game as freely as they want to.
If it means preventing players freely cheating then I guess having a water tight game is the lesser of the 2 evils.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Hardcoding is only a partial solution. Support planets can still attack and scan and no doubt will adapt by having purely attacking fleets to escort those in tag.
Scaning is fine as it isnt direct interference.
Difference with attacking is that the main planets will not likely share the capture of the roids with the support planets (afterall planets that are playing with a genuine/strategical mind surely wont say no to roids) and will recall them between eta 4 and eta 1 just watch a question of trend spotting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
In my view we are better off having freedom as VNC is banned anyway.
VNC is wrong dont do it approach works greats.... Care to ask the audience? Care to phone a lith friend? What good is rules without effective deterents / disabling the means of abusing it happening in the first place.

Lack of consequences = repeat offending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Obviously it's very hard to detect but that doesn't mean we should destroy aspects of our gameplay to crack down on it.
The current approach doesn't seem to be cutting it.
Judging by some of the replies on PA forums there certainly seems to be a certain apathy in addressing cheating. I'm hardly overwelmed by the community spirit that certain Folk keep preaching on about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
If you're opposed to support planets, I'd like to see how you classify one alliance defending another out of political and military necessity to win a war. Because if you stop that, then you're destroying a significant part of metagame.
Its no mistake.... it is out of tag defending.
However if the community want to look into the possibilities of setting up ingame options for alliance HCs to have agreements that would ignore the the +1 eta for sending out of tag defense.... Certainly worth exploring.
This would also have knock on effects with alliance tags limits and mergers.
You'll have on one hand super blocks, having fewer Tags also possibily having alliance 2nd and 3rd teams (if tag limits are still in place) playing as 1 alliance. I would forsee a greater problem with multing support planets (playing in the 2nd/3rd team alliance) then we have now ie even fi/co fleets being affected / same ship class out of your own specific tag defense now playing into this.

I would personally would like to exchange intel on the alliance defense page if there is uncovered incs put them up for retal. I seem to notice on the forums of complaints of not being able to land attacks unless you launch with several other fleets. Maybe not having inter ally defense would also help this issue?
Afterall it isnt your alliance that isnt getting the incs and the flak alliance (I wonder how VSN felt this round especially when there were the odd posters refering to the Asc/app block and seem to have left out poor VSN) as expendable.

Whilst I have nothing personal against HaNzl or Neroon... I certainly wont miss the who sent the most out of tag def arguements.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 09:16   #123
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Never having cheated in PA myself, I can't say I have a particular problem with VNC use.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 10:53   #124
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Well, there's problem that ppl can control multiplanets via VNC and/or planets of their friends aswell, which doesn't fall into 'playing by the rules' in my mind. Odd to see moderator saying that he doesn't have problem with that right after saying he hasn't cheated.

Tbh, i could control 4 planets with giving any hint to MH's from my home connection with 1 pc only thought 1 DSL connection. You wouldn't mind that either? Or if you would you wouldn't mind if i control the whole thing via VNC?

The fun part in here is that PA can't limit VNC controlling as it happens elsewhere and if it's done properly the remote control doesn't let you know of it. So basically it doesn't matter does ppl actually see problems with it or not, it can happen without anyone knowing it. And anyone can setup more than one account from same connection and even from same single pc without leaving any traces if they want giving 0 proof to MH's or nyone else.

I actually liked that OOT def ETA +1 idea. That would be easier code (assuming) and less limiting option for those who wants to send their def fleets over the uni as OOT/OOG defence.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 11:40   #125
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafir View Post
Odd to see moderator saying that he doesn't have problem with that right after saying he hasn't cheated.
First off, being a forum mod has nothing to do with the game itself, other than that I get a credit for it every round.

Secondly, alright, I'll change my earlier statement somewhat: in any game, people should follow the rules. That is why I called it cheating, because anything against the rule is by default "not done". However, were you to ask me to create a new set of rules, farming, multiing, account sharing would not be banned. If you can't get rid of cheating through ingame mechanics, you shouldn't get rid of it at all, because that means it's indistinguisable from "allowed" ingame actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafir View Post
The fun part in here is that PA can't limit VNC controlling as it happens elsewhere and if it's done properly the remote control doesn't let you know of it.
And that is exactly why.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 11:41   #126
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
Loving how you're trying to make it sound as though you're outnumbered when it was you who went 2v1 against Apprime and then also felt the need to bring in another 4 allies for support.
Sigh, next time i'l clarify it better when i refer to we as in block, or we as in Euphoria. I was actually referring to the block not being able to bring down 3 alliances, and hence praising how apprime managed to defeaut us.

I'll make my next posts more trollproove

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
If you're opposed to support planets, I'd like to see how you classify one alliance defending another out of political and military necessity to win a war. Because if you stop that, then you're destroying a significant part of metagame.
I think the support rule wasn't intenteded to stop blocks cooperating, but rather was intented to stop single support planets that were created only to support certain members in 1 alliance.

I see two options.
Option one: Get rid of the support rule
Option two: Keep the support rule, but give alliances the possibility to publically state their affairs with other alliances thereby bypassing the support rule.

Neither of the option will be perfect, but people n scanning every member in an alliance is just stupid also, If two alliances want to work together they should have the ability to do that.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 13:02   #127
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
If it means preventing players freely cheating then I guess having a water tight game is the lesser of the 2 evils.
This post kind of reminded me of the idiots who argue in favour of anti terror legislation despite there being plenty of rules to stop the activity in question.

Quote:
Scaning is fine as it isnt direct interference.
It's the difference between crashing and not crashing, I'd say scanning has a rather wide range of consequences.

Quote:
Difference with attacking is that the main planets will not likely share the capture of the roids with the support planets (afterall planets that are playing with a genuine/strategical mind surely wont say no to roids) and will recall them between eta 4 and eta 1 just watch a question of trend spotting.
Fundamentally they are still attacking to achieve a massive benefit to the planet being 'supported'. In fact, this is how most planets achieve #1 ranking and have done for quite some time. People achieve that using planets from their own alliance, or by legitimate support planets. The method of those people achieving #1 will not change regardless of any rule you wanted to implement. Number one planet has almost always been decided in this manner and it is not something sufficiently serious for anyone to care about.

Quote:
VNC is wrong dont do it approach works greats.... Care to ask the audience? Care to phone a lith friend? What good is rules without effective deterents / disabling the means of abusing it happening in the first place.

Lack of consequences = repeat offending.

The current approach doesn't seem to be cutting it.
Rules that cripple the gameplay are no solution whatsoever.

Quote:
Judging by some of the replies on PA forums there certainly seems to be a certain apathy in addressing cheating. I'm hardly overwelmed by the community spirit that certain Folk keep preaching on about.
There is no apathy against cheating. People want multis and vncs caught. What they don't want are legitimate strategies becoming banned because of people's fears about a group that if it does exist, is a very small minority.

Quote:
Its no mistake.... it is out of tag defending.
It's out of tag defending. I have a legitimate account, out of tag. So what if I choose to defend whoever?

Quote:
However if the community want to look into the possibilities of setting up ingame options for alliance HCs to have agreements that would ignore the the +1 eta for sending out of tag defense.... Certainly worth exploring.

This would also have knock on effects with alliance tags limits and mergers.
You'll have on one hand super blocks, having fewer Tags also possibily having alliance 2nd and 3rd teams (if tag limits are still in place) playing as 1 alliance. I would forsee a greater problem with multing support planets (playing in the 2nd/3rd team alliance) then we have now ie even fi/co fleets being affected / same ship class out of your own specific tag defense now playing into this.
Sign up the VNC planets to another alliance and ally them using that feature. And make the problem even worse.

Quote:
I would personally would like to exchange intel on the alliance defense page if there is uncovered incs put them up for retal. I seem to notice on the forums of complaints of not being able to land attacks unless you launch with several other fleets. Maybe not having inter ally defense would also help this issue?
Maybe the people attacking need to launch better attacks. The people defending and organised enough to get defence aren't the ones with a problem.

Quote:
Afterall it isnt your alliance that isnt getting the incs and the flak alliance (I wonder how VSN felt this round especially when there were the odd posters refering to the Asc/app block and seem to have left out poor VSN) as expendable.

Whilst I have nothing personal against HaNzl or Neroon... I certainly wont miss the who sent the most out of tag def arguements.
Lets face it, in the grand scheme of that block, Vision's influence was peripheral.

As a final salute, I'd like to point out that Ascendancy has won seven rounds without any serious allegation of cheating behaviour and without any need to use any kind of vnc or login sharing. We've won rounds by being organised and playing more intelligently than anyone else. Good play wins planetarion, not VNC planets. If you think this is remotely an issue I think you need to check out your understanding of game mechanics, metagame and not cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 13:16   #128
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Never having cheated in PA myself, I can't say I have a particular problem with VNC use.
Not a statement I want to see from someone Who does hold a position of Authority In Planetarion. Sure Forum Moderating is not part of the game.
However there is a price for that free credit you get to play the game.

Is to set an example and stop being so apathetic / effectively endorsing others to Cheat.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 13:28   #129
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Re: Congrats Apprime

VNCing is just being used since pa has never adopted a proper way to deal with the issue of people being unable to be on 24/7.
In other similar games you can choose 1-2 friends who can access parts of ur account through their own to send fleets out etc etc.
That being said, with better mobile phones and overall better coverage for wireless inet and suvch, the need for VNCing is getting smaller and smaller for each round. I dont understand why its really being mentioned as a problem at all.
VNCing is NOT a big problem in planetarion. Shipfarming, shipdonations farming and mulities are.
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 14:14   #130
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
VNCing is just being used since pa has never adopted a proper way to deal with the issue of people being unable to be on 24/7.
In other similar games you can choose 1-2 friends who can access parts of ur account through their own to send fleets out etc etc.
That being said, with better mobile phones and overall better coverage for wireless inet and suvch, the need for VNCing is getting smaller and smaller for each round. I dont understand why its really being mentioned as a problem at all.
VNCing is NOT a big problem in planetarion. Shipfarming, shipdonations farming and mulities are.
So should we congratz "Team Wishmaster" instead of 'Wishmaster'? Well, it would be too l33t to achieve #1 planet by being only one person, who controls your planet and fleets.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 14:27   #131
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
This post kind of reminded me of the idiots who argue in favour of anti terror legislation despite there being plenty of rules to stop the activity in question.
Only idiots Who seem to be apathetic towards / endorse cheating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
It's the difference between crashing and not crashing, I'd say scanning has a rather wide range of consequences.
You get the scans from the planets in question.... but the scanners dont press the launch/recall buttons for you. (unless they have VNC/proxi access) Ultimately the attacker and defense that decides the outcome of the battle. The scanner role is merely supplimentry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Fundamentally they are still attacking to achieve a massive benefit to the planet being 'supported'. In fact, this is how most planets achieve #1 ranking and have done for quite some time. People achieve that using planets from their own alliance, or by legitimate support planets. The method of those people achieving #1 will not change regardless of any rule you wanted to implement. Number one planet has almost always been decided in this manner and it is not something sufficiently serious for anyone to care about.
This round for example... sure I went on a few joint attacks with Wish this round ... but I still wanted my share of the roids... No way I was recalling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Rules that cripple the gameplay are no solution whatsoever.
Cripple the game play for whom? Its not something that would have an effect for myself not as if I will go and get a VNC support planet and send out of tag defense. if anything it would likely enchance the gameplay for others... especially the new players that PA crave for so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
There is no apathy against cheating. People want multis and vncs caught. What they don't want are legitimate strategies becoming banned because of people's fears about a group that if it does exist, is a very small minority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I can't say I have a particular problem with VNC use.
Not according to your fellow Mod/Mate Mz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Sign up the VNC planets to another alliance and ally them using that feature. And make the problem even worse.
Exactly my point... In the mean time banning interalliance defense would not be as bad as having inter alliance agreements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Maybe the people attacking need to launch better attacks. The people defending and organised enough to get defence aren't the ones with a problem.
Are you saying to get my own support planets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Lets face it, in the grand scheme of that block, Vision's influence was peripheral.
Thats gratitute for you VSN. I would hate to be P3ngiuns HC for your responce on their contribution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
As a final salute, I'd like to point out that Ascendancy has won seven rounds without any serious allegation of cheating behaviour and without any need to use any kind of vnc or login sharing. We've won rounds by being organised and playing more intelligently than anyone else.
I am sure you must be proud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Good play wins planetarion, not VNC planets. If you think this is remotely an issue I think you need to check out your understanding of game mechanics, metagame and not cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Didnt apprime win this round? I'll let cardi and co previous history speak for itself.

Limiting VNC support planets options is no skin off my nose.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 15:00   #132
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Only idiots Who seem to be apathetic towards / endorse cheating.
I don't view support planets as cheating, on the proviso they are legitimate within the multiing/login sharing rules. Do I endorse support planets? Absolutely.

Quote:
You get the scans from the planets in question.... but the scanners dont press the launch/recall buttons for you. (unless they have VNC/proxi access) Ultimately the attacker and defense that decides the outcome of the battle. The scanner role is merely supplimentry.
Given that rounds are lost and won on levels of crashing, and you don't know whether to recall with or without a scan, I'd say scans are quite important.

Quote:
This round for example... sure I went on a few joint attacks with Wish this round ... but I still wanted my share of the roids... No way I was recalling.
I wouldn't see a problem if you wanted to help Wish and recalled.

Quote:
Cripple the game play for whom? Its not something that would have an effect for myself not as if I will go and get a VNC support planet and send out of tag defense. if anything it would likely enchance the gameplay for others... especially the new players that PA crave for so much.
Alliances defending each other is politics. Having planets out of tag is just organisation.

Quote:
Not according to your fellow Mod/Mate Mz.
Clearly having a different view to mz on a technical issue invalidates everything I say.

Quote:
Exactly my point... In the mean time banning interalliance defense would not be as bad as having inter alliance agreements.
The cost would be destroying an element of politics, and I don't think stopping a couple of VNC planets is worth that price.

Quote:
Are you saying to get my own support planets?
If you've got some people who want to play and help you out sure. Or you could make political agreements, launch just before ticks to prevent ETA +1 defence, or use prelaunching to your advantage.

Quote:
Thats gratitute for you VSN. I would hate to be P3ngiuns HC for your responce on their contribution.
What? If you're saying they're of equal stature to Apprime or Ascendancy, that would be untrue. Given that they are a smaller alliance by many levels means it's quite easy for them to be perceived as having a peripheral role, because that's what they are by the nature of things.

Quote:
I am sure you must be proud.
My point is simply that the most successful alliance in this game has been able to win without using VNC or login sharing or whatever. Quality is the deciding factor, not VNC. Thus it is not something to worry about.

Quote:
Didnt apprime win this round? I'll let cardi and co previous history speak for itself.

Limiting VNC support planets options is no skin off my nose.
They won because of political choices and their own admirable resilience. VNC support planets are such a staggeringly minor influence on the outcome of any recent round, it's just not worth butchering elements of metagame and military strategy to achieve their elimination. As Wishmaster puts it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
That being said, with better mobile phones and overall better coverage for wireless inet and suvch, the need for VNCing is getting smaller and smaller for each round. I dont understand why its really being mentioned as a problem at all.
VNCing is NOT a big problem in planetarion. Shipfarming, shipdonations farming and mulities are.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 15:23   #133
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Not a statement I want to see from someone Who does hold a position of Authority In Planetarion. Sure Forum Moderating is not part of the game.
However there is a price for that free credit you get to play the game.

Is to set an example and stop being so apathetic / effectively endorsing others to Cheat.
Firstly, my opinions on PA do not influence how I moderate the forums. Secondly, you are not Appocomaster, you do not decide what conditions I have to subject myself to in order to recieve my roundly credit. And why Do you capitalise Random words in the middle Of Sentences?

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Not according to your fellow Mod/Mate Mz.
Notice that I changed/augmented that statement.
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 16:20   #134
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Kafir View Post
So should we congratz "Team Wishmaster" instead of 'Wishmaster'? Well, it would be too l33t to achieve #1 planet by being only one person, who controls your planet and fleets.
yes man, all in apprime and all in subh controlled my planet. And I could also control all of their planets!
If we had used vncing this round, elviz wouldnt have nubcrashed on fcrew cause he overslept, buddah wouldnt have died epically etc etc.
People in general dont use VNC. Stop discussing something which no one really uses and which no one really cares about anymore.
This discussion is so 2003
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 17:22   #135
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
I don't view support planets as cheating, on the proviso they are legitimate within the multiing/login sharing rules. Do I endorse support planets? Absolutely.
Something I did say in a different thread... not all support planets are multis however all multis seems to be support planets.
Shame that the Multis are spoiling the game for the genuine players especially ones that dont even send or receive def outside of ally/gal. aka entirely innocent.

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Given that rounds are lost and won on levels of crashing, and you don't know whether to recall with or without a scan, I'd say scans are quite important.
As I said scanner dont hit the launch/recall buttons. The individual does.
Scanners only provide infomation and dont help/hinder the actual battle.
I do notice that there is a scan channel called #Scans however I dont seem to see a channel that offers out of def fleets .

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
I wouldn't see a problem if you wanted to help Wish and recalled.
As I pointed out in a earlier post a multi support planet will recall to prevent taking cap for the main planet. A genuine player will still want his/her cut of the roids... Thus a self serving motive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Alliances defending each other is politics. Having planets out of tag is just organisation.
The only problem is that it is hard to determine if a support planet is genuine or a multi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Clearly having a different view to mz on a technical issue invalidates everything I say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
There is no apathy against cheating. People want multis and vncs caught.
Mz comment was an example of the mentioned apathy. You clearly said there Was no apathy... Any Questions?
I Hope Mz had retracted this realising the error of that comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
The cost would be destroying an element of politics, and I don't think stopping a couple of VNC planets is worth that price.
A couple of VNC support planets? I think you underestimate the scale of it.
You are ofc entitled to your opinion on political strategy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
If you've got some people who want to play and help you out sure. Or you could make political agreements, launch just before ticks to prevent ETA +1 defence, or use prelaunching to your advantage.
Personally I would prefer them to play intag and give it a good go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
What? If you're saying they're of equal stature to Apprime or Ascendancy, that would be untrue. Given that they are a smaller alliance by many levels means it's quite easy for them to be perceived as having a peripheral role, because that's what they are by the nature of things.
Ofc Vsn dont have the calibre to be on a par with asc/app.
They did however played their parts on the App/Asc/P3ng/Vsn block. Much to their own costs. P3ng near enough buckled. Vsn didn't gain much from the war probily would have been better off staying out of it.
They sure didnt get an equal deal out of the block no arguments there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
My point is simply that the most successful alliance in this game has been able to win without using VNC or login sharing or whatever. Quality is the deciding factor, not VNC. Thus it is not something to worry about.
VNC is relatively undetectable to the MHs... it is hard to independently determine if this has been the case or not. But I am not going to throw wild accusations. Nor can be arsed to Infiltrate Asc (ironically by VNC) and do a Planetarion style panorama thread if there was.

Would be interesting to have a round where out of tag def was banned via hard coding as a cross comparison.I cant be arsed with that pandora's box. I just want my BS/CR fleets back free from defense from multing support / defense planets without consequence if the def fleet is on a 1 way trip or not. Faking non xan fi/co is somewhat difficult. Thus restricting my game more than the ability to send/receive out of tag defense from my point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
They won because of political choices and their own admirable resilience. VNC support planets are such a staggeringly minor influence on the outcome of any recent round, it's just not worth butchering elements of metagame and military strategy to achieve their elimination. As Wishmaster puts it:
VNC is a tool to get around getting caught Multing aka avoiding detection from the MHs.
Wether a Multis choice is to use proxis/exclusive PCs with Internet more than VNC is here nor there.

Ship/salvage farming is more of a motive/means to cheat.... VNC/proxies are a tool of doing the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Firstly, my opinions on PA do not influence how I moderate the forums. Secondly, you are not Appocomaster, you do not decide what conditions I have to subject myself to in order to recieve my roundly credit.
I did not say that your comments affect your ability to Mod ... what I did say that the PA community has a certain expectation(s) on how a Person holding a position of authority should conduct themselves. Heed or ignore this is ofc your choice.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 26 Dec 2009 at 19:32. Reason: quote fix
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 18:36   #136
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter

& what about all those 7 6 planets that had a planet signup for donations ?
Sorry couldnt help but laugh and point at this comment if only i could have gotten ic the crasher to come back online and give me that 60mill he was sat on the git!!!!
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Unread 26 Dec 2009, 20:44   #137
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Something I did say in a different thread... not all support planets are multis however all multis seems to be support planets.
Shame that the Multis are spoiling the game for the genuine players especially ones that dont even send or receive def outside of ally/gal. aka entirely innocent.
Which is precisely why nothing should be done.

Quote:
As I said scanner dont hit the launch/recall buttons. The individual does.
Scanners only provide infomation and dont help/hinder the actual battle.
I do notice that there is a scan channel called #Scans however I dont seem to see a channel that offers out of def fleets.
I don't see how different levels of organisation change the nature of the activity, which is fundamentally support. If it is an iota of support, it's support.

Quote:
As I pointed out in a earlier post a multi support planet will recall to prevent taking cap for the main planet. A genuine player will still want his/her cut of the roids... Thus a self serving motive.
There are legitimate players who want to be escort planets. In fact, this is how top planets win planetarion.

Quote:
The only problem is that it is hard to determine if a support planet is genuine or a multi.
The cost of getting round this problem is far greater than the benefit it seeks to achieve.

Quote:
Mz comment was an example of the mentioned apathy. You clearly said there Was no apathy... Any Questions?
I Hope Mz had retracted this realising the error of that comment.
He is simply referring to what should and shouldn't be permitted.

Quote:
A couple of VNC support planets? I think you underestimate the scale of it.
You are ofc entitled to your opinion on political strategy.
Not really, no. LDK have lost so many rounds it can't have that much serious impact. Even at the peak of their cheating activity in the early rounds, LDK got beaten by quality outfits regardless. And that says a lot given they are a quality outfit themselves.

Quote:
Personally I would prefer them to play intag and give it a good go.
I'm not opposed to upping or delimiting the tag limit.

Quote:
Ofc Vsn dont have the calibre to be on a par with asc/app.
They did however played their parts on the App/Asc/P3ng/Vsn block. Much to their own costs. P3ng near enough buckled. Vsn didn't gain much from the war probily would have been better off staying out of it.
They sure didnt get an equal deal out of the block no arguments there.
I'm supposed to feel bad that two alliances got a bad deal in your opinion, what?

Quote:
VNC is relatively undetectable to the MHs... it is hard to independently determine if this has been the case or not. But I am not going to throw wild accusations. Nor can be arsed to Infiltrate Asc (ironically by VNC) and do a Planetarion style panorama thread if there was.
We have always operated within the rules, and used Munin's SMS functionality. Most of our wins have been down to superior political and military strategy rather than being more active than everybody else. And we're certainly less active than Apprime who seem to have a deathwish regarding their own activity levels. If anything you are far better placed using text messages than VNC because of your improved communication. There is actually very little incentive to cheat.

Quote:
Would be interesting to have a round where out of tag def was banned via hard coding as a cross comparison.I cant be arsed with that pandora's box. I just want my BS/CR fleets back free from defense from multing support / defense planets without consequence if the def fleet is on a 1 way trip or not. Faking non xan fi/co is somewhat difficult. Thus restricting my game more than the ability to send/receive out of tag defense from my point of view.
I find playing planetarion difficult (I am rubbish at getting high scoring planets as it goes) but I just get on with it.

Quote:
VNC is a tool to get around getting caught Multing aka avoiding detection from the MHs.
Wether a Multis choice is to use proxis/exclusive PCs with Internet more than VNC is here nor there.
I know what VNC is/does. I know it's hard to detect. It's just not enough of a problem to warrant action.

Quote:
Ship/salvage farming is more of a motive/means to cheat.... VNC/proxies are a tool of doing the job.
In fairness anyone with an understanding of game mechanics and planet behaviour can spot ship or salvage farming. Many slip through the net not because it's not detectable, but because the way this rule is applied gives the suspected cheater too much benefit of the doubt.

Quote:
I did not say that your comments affect your ability to Mod ... what I did say that the PA community has a certain expectation(s) on how a Person holding a position of authority should conduct themselves. Heed or ignore this is ofc your choice.
He can say what he wants within the rules.
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Unread 27 Dec 2009, 20:44   #138
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Not really, no. LDK have lost so many rounds it can't have that much serious impact. Even at the peak of their cheating activity in the early rounds, LDK got beaten by quality outfits regardless. And that says a lot given they are a quality outfit themselves.
And What about eXil in particular r15 with the mysterious Vsh support planets (The round where the frig class anti fi fired before Fi class anti Frig) I cant be arsed with another 1up v eXil discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
I'm supposed to feel bad that two alliances got a bad deal in your opinion, what?
Feel free to do what you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
We have always operated within the rules, and used Munin's SMS functionality. Most of our wins have been down to superior political and military strategy rather than being more active than everybody else. And we're certainly less active than Apprime who seem to have a deathwish regarding their own activity levels. If anything you are far better placed using text messages than VNC because of your improved communication. There is actually very little incentive to cheat.
The difference between SMS and VNC is SMS is still dependent on the player logging in and send recall the required fleet. Vnc can be used as a backup in the advent the player isnt able login to the game at the required time. That itself is an incentive for its use.
As I said in a previous post it cant be independently Confirmed or disproved if VNC is used or not.
Farming ships does have an incentive as in ziks trying to obtain pods like mosquitos, illusions etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
I find playing planetarion difficult (I am rubbish at getting high scoring planets as it goes) but I just get on with it.
Problem is this isnt helping PA to retain the new players it needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
I know what VNC is/does. I know it's hard to detect. It's just not enough of a problem to warrant action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
In fairness anyone with an understanding of game mechanics and planet behaviour can spot ship or salvage farming. Many slip through the net not because it's not detectable, but because the way this rule is applied gives the suspected cheater too much benefit of the doubt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Which is precisely why nothing should be done.
The status Quo is not addressing the problem of multing... change is needed to address the problem. wether if it is altering game mechanics / imposing alliance penalties / other suggestions could do with further exploration.

Edit [/quote] fix
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Unread 27 Dec 2009, 23:34   #139
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Re: Congrats Apprime

My position has been fairly consistent since the support planet rule was implemented.

I have no love for support planets (particularly when they are a dedicated force set up purely to defend people) but I don't see why you can't organise yourself that way if you want to do that. Planetarion is ultimately about defending and attacking who you want - implementing what you propose goes directly against the whole point of the game.

At the time I did propose coding some kind of flagging up system or even a limit of how many times you could defend a tag in a particular time period, which is highly similar to PAs current position on the issue, 19 rounds later. I can't say I love it as much now as I did then, but at least it's a solution that actually serves to keep the whole point of the game instead of destroying it.

The sole object of the support planet rule was a political one to defeat exilition and nothing more. It's a rule born from massive pressure applied to the game admins at the time.

My original post in the thread is here: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...&postcount=151

As you'll also note, I also suggested in this thread to go after farmers and the like, as they were (and unfortunately, still are) the real problem in terms of manipulating the game's result.
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