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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 01:00   #51
JonnyBGood
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Not everyone has the luxury of a support planet and has to make do with the standard gal/ally mates def ships. Nor having to result to multi-ing.



As I am sure that some would argue that this would reduce some folks gameplay options... periodically you can be immune from cov ops by having suffient alert you cant be immune from out of tag defense (unless the support planet isnt in cluster and you are attacking with fi/co and didnt predict your prelaunch)

I am sure you dont like being roided but you dont want to prevent any attacks. thats part of the game
I really don't understand how you're not getting this. It's like saying the game is unfair because someone else is bigger than you, or has better gal mates or a better alliance. If it's possible in the game it's part of the game, as you acknowledge. If the starting conditions are the same and the rules are obeyed the game is fair by definition. This is not a matter of opinion, it's what the word means.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 01:07   #52
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Not everyone has the luxury of a support planet and has to make do with the standard gal/ally mates def ships.
Then they should become better at the metagame. What I mean by that is that they should become better at gathering a group of people around them who are willing to fight not only with them, but for them. The Ministry group is a good example, as are elviz & co and the Liths. Everyone can do this, the only reason people don't is because 1) for every supported planet, there need to be several supporting planets, and 2) few people are as dedicated as the pillars of the groups I mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Nor having to result to multi-ing.
Multiing is not a requirement for having support planets, nor have you in my opinion adequately proven that there is a connection between the two or that multiiing is bad for the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
As I am sure that some would argue that this would reduce some folks gameplay options... periodically you can be immune from cov ops by having suffient alert you cant be immune from out of tag defense (unless the support planet isnt in cluster and you are attacking with fi/co and didnt predict your prelaunch)
I don't think you understand what the phrase "gameplay options" means. I'll make your case a little more specific in an effort to explain.

Choosing whether or not to get guards is not a "gameplay option" in the sense you use it: no one can force me to get guards, nor can anyone force me not to get them. It might not be clever to get enough guards to get 150 alert, but the choice is mine to make.

On the other hand, having a rule saying "You're not allowed to have more than 5000 guards, otherwise it becomes unfair to people who aren't very good at cov opping" is limiting gameplay options: someone else is telling me that I can't get 5001 guards, for no particularly justifiable ingame reason. Telling people they can't defend out of tag more than 3 times a week is very similar: the only reason the rule is there is because not everyone is good enough at the metagame.

We wouldn't for one second consider outlawing attacking the same planet more than three times a week. Why is defence so different? That's a genuine question, by the way, I look forward to your answer.

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I am sure you dont like being roided but you dont want to prevent any attacks. thats part of the game
What is and isn't part of the game is an important decision to make. I don't feel you're making a sufficiently strong argument why having support planets is bad for the game. As simplistic as "limitations are bad" sounds (and is, there are justifiable limitations), it trumps the best you've so far come up with, namely "I don't like it".
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 01:11   #53
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Re: Support planet rule

I just want Paisley to stop talking. He's wrong - everyone BUT him knows he is wrong; why do we feel compelled to set him straight?
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 01:18   #54
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Re: Support planet rule

There are plenty of people who like having the support planet rule and presumably they all think they're right as well.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 01:23   #55
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
It's either multiing or it's not.
All depends if you get caught or not... whilst I appreiate that you are asking for more clarity from MH on this matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Out of tag planets aren't relevant.
It's also in no way an unfair advantage. Getting other people to help you is part of the essence of an interactive multiplayer game.
IF dedicated support planet(s) get closed it is little or no consequence to the player who is/controls the support planet as they arent playing properly and punishment of closure would not have the same effect as someone who is trying to play for rank. one of the reasons that it creates an unfair advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
It's also in no way an unfair advantage. Getting other people to help you is part of the essence of an interactive multiplayer game. Unless there are different limits in place on different people this is just not unfair and if you think it is you are just flat out wrong.
I have no problems with people getting help from their gal or intag ally mate. however it does becomes more likely with out of tag def that it could be the same person using a proxi hence multi-ing.
By hard coding out of tag def would reduce multing and free up time for MH to look into other aspects of cheating like farming in particular this round support planets throwing mosquito / illusions at ziks/etd for them to get a fi/co roiding fleet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
You'd be wrong. For the above reason I stated. Please don't just repeat your bullshit when it's wrong. If the rules are the same for every player when they start the game then the game is by definition fair. If you think out of tag defence is unfair when it isn't breaking any rules you are objectively wrong.
It is always fair at the first tick no arguments from me there. then again out of tag def has no relevence when everyone is in protection....you've just put forward a stupid argument from that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
You'd be wrong (again). That isn't restricting your options in any way whatsoever. One option being better than others, for whatever reason, is not the same as having fewer options. This is pretty straightforwardly evident in the fact that in certain rounds fr/de or cr/bs has been superior to fi/co.
You're working on the basis/assumption that the support rule has been a constant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Please, you obviously don't like out of tag planets but phrase your objections in terms of improving gameplay. Calling something unfair when it just isn't is ****ing retarded and how we ended up getting into this pile of shit rule in the first place.
I have went into more detail why this isnt fair. I would prefer hard coding... no room for MH discreptancies in decision making with support rule.
Arent you saying that some of the MH calls on the support rule have been unfair?

I am not going to get several computers with separate IPs and or proxies or get people who cba arsed to play a round to build one class of ship only to be my def whore .... "just to keep up with the jones"

Last edited by Paisley; 10 Dec 2009 at 01:29.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 01:38   #56
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
All depends if you get caught or not... whilst I appreiate that you are asking for more clarity from MH on this matter.
No. It's multiing or it isn't. That's different to whether you get caught or not.

Quote:
IF dedicated support planet(s) get closed it is little or no consequence to the player who is/controls the support planet as they arent playing properly and punishment of closure would not have the same effect as someone who is trying to play for rank. one of the reasons that it creates an unfair advantage.
This is just ****ing gibberish. Either it's a multi support planet in which case it's a multi and all the accounts controlled get closed or it isn't a multi and no rules about multiing are broken.

Quote:
I have no problems with people getting help from their gal or intag ally mate. however it does becomes more likely with out of tag def that it could be the same person using a proxi hence multi-ing.
Most multiing has gone on intag and ingal over the years so er, no.

Quote:
By hard coding out of tag def would reduce multing and free up time for MH to look into other aspects of cheating like farming in particular this round support planets throwing mosquito / illusions at ziks/etd for them to get a fi/co roiding fleet.
My god you've actually found a valid point, it's a Christmas miracle.

Quote:
It is always fair at the first tick no arguments from me there. then again out of tag def has no relevence when everyone is in protection....you've just put forward a stupid argument from that.
Wow, you just don't get it. If the same starting conditions apply to everyone the game is fair. Before replying to this please dear god just find out what the difference between a fair and unfair game is.

Quote:
You're working on the basis/assumption that the support rule has been a constant.
Maybe your ****ing up of the quote tags meant this doesn't make sense but seriously I have no idea what you're on about here.

Quote:
I have went into more detail why this isnt fair. I would prefer hard coding... no room for MH discreptancies in decision making with support rule.
Just because you went into more detail doesn't mean you're not wrong.
Quote:
Arent you saying that some of the MH calls on the support rule have been unfair?
Of course. Different application of the rules at different times is essentially the same as having different sets of rules for different players which is altering the starting conditions for different planets which is what makes something unfair as I said.

Quote:
I am not going to get several computers with separate IPs and or proxies or get people who cba arsed to play a round to build one class of ship only to be my def whore .... "just to keep up with the jones"
Okay, ignoring the first part of your point which is called multiing and irrelevant to this topic the second part is just so laughable I'm going to give you some other examples.

"I'm not going to join a good alliance just to keep up with the jones."
"I'm not going to get a good gal just to keep up with the jones."
"I'm not going to login every day just to keep up with the jones."
"I'm not going to build the right fleet just to keep up with the jones."

How. Are. You. Not. Getting. This?
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 01:55   #57
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Then they should become better at the metagame. What I mean by that is that they should become better at gathering a group of people around them who are willing to fight not only with them, but for them. The Ministry group is a good example, as are elviz & co and the Liths. Everyone can do this, the only reason people don't is because 1) for every supported planet, there need to be several supporting planets, and 2) few people are as dedicated as the pillars of the groups I mentioned.

Multiing is not a requirement for having support planets, nor have you in my opinion adequately proven that there is a connection between the two or that multiiing is bad for the game.
You just mentioned Elviz and the liths.... haven't they had their planets closed in the past for multing? and what a co-incidence they had support planets.[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't think you understand what the phrase "gameplay options" means. I'll make your case a little more specific in an effort to explain.

Choosing whether or not to get guards is not a "gameplay option" in the sense you use it: no one can force me to get guards, nor can anyone force me not to get them. It might not be clever to get enough guards to get 150 alert, but the choice is mine to make.

On the other hand, having a rule saying "You're not allowed to have more than 5000 guards, otherwise it becomes unfair to people who aren't very good at cov opping" is limiting gameplay options: someone else is telling me that I can't get 5001 guards, for no particularly justifiable ingame reason. Telling people they can't defend out of tag more than 3 times a week is very similar: the only reason the rule is there is because not everyone is good enough at the metagame.
Cov ops are only an interaction with the cov oper and the target only. whilst attacks and defense can be interfered with by a third party. have as many or little guards as you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
We wouldn't for one second consider outlawing attacking the same planet more than three times a week. Why is defence so different? That's a genuine question, by the way, I look forward to your answer.
I have no quarrel with that providing it is def from ingal and/or tag.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 02:02   #58
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
You just mentioned Elviz and the liths.... haven't they had their planets closed in the past for multing? and what a co-incidence they had support planets.
Coincidence sounds about right. You can have a bunch of supporters and be a cheater at the same time, the two are not mutually exclusive. Then you can close them for cheating, fine with me. Also, it has to be said that elviz hasn't been closed in quite a while! Pretty much since he joined Ascendancy, I believe, which was well over a year ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Cov ops are only an interaction with the cov oper and the target only. whilst attacks and defense can be interfered with by a third party. have as many or little guards as you like.
Seems a flimsy distinction. I only went with cov ops because you brought it up. If you feel the comparison doesn't hold up to scrutiny, perhaps one might ask why you used it in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I have no quarrel with that providing it is def from ingal and/or tag.
That's not actually an answer. Why is defence so different from attacking, in this respect?
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 02:32   #59
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
No. It's multiing or it isn't. That's different to whether you get caught or not.

This is just ****ing gibberish. Either it's a multi support planet in which case it's a multi and all the accounts controlled get closed or it isn't a multi and no rules about multiing are broken.

Most multiing has gone on intag and ingal over the years so er, no.
you can't deny that multing isn't done by the use of support planets.
hardcoding out of tag stops this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
"I'm not going to join a good alliance just to keep up with the jones."
"I'm not going to get a good gal just to keep up with the jones."
"I'm not going to login every day just to keep up with the jones."
"I'm not going to build the right fleet just to keep up with the jones."..
.
Arent you f-crew this round or are you talking shite about leaving the asc tag
My gal has a higher score than yours.
feel free to check my sandmans.
I didnt build mass co this round just to stay below 300 roids

seriously wtf happened to the r15 JBG
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 02:41   #60
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
you can't deny that multing isn't done by the use of support planets.
hardcoding out of tag stops this.
So does getting rid of ships. You don't have a point.

Quote:
Arent you f-crew this round or are you talking shite about leaving the asc tag
My gal has a higher score than yours.
feel free to check my sandmans.
I didnt build mass co this round just to stay below 300 roids
I was making rhetorical points which are akin to what you said. You can't say something is unfair just because you can't be bothered doing it was my point.

Quote:
seriously wtf happened to the r15 JBG
I'd still 3 fleet defend you every night if you were in my alliance! I'd still say you were wrong if you were wrong though.


Edit: I had a look back at some of what I, and others, said regarding the support planet rule in r15 or so when it first came on the scene and it's pretty hilarious.

I'm so awesome I made predictions three and a half years in advance and pre-empted this argument by the same amount of time.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 02:53   #61
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Re: Support planet rule

The Ministries official stance is: If you can't play the game, do not play it.

Also, it's only cheating if you get caught and only stupid people get caught.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 03:20   #62
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Seems a flimsy distinction. I only went with cov ops because you brought it up. If you feel the comparison doesn't hold up to scrutiny, perhaps one might ask why you used it in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
9 Dec 2009 23:09
I don't like cov ops much, you don't hear me clamoring for their removal
you used cov op first as a comparison to out of tag def for some reason.
I only mentioned cov ops after your post.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That's not actually an answer. Why is defence so different from attacking, in this respect?
Pretty much is to me.

who did decide to make the call to 3 fleets a week? certainly wasnt me.

Whoever made the change from support planets being illegal (circa r14-r19) to a shade of grey should be removed from their position and shot
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 03:24   #63
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Re: Support planet rule

I can name somebody else in need of being shot, and they're a little too West Coast for my liking.

I know this'll probably go round in circles for a while now, but I must say that being Scottish is no excuse for being shit at English. You still haven't answered WHY defense is different from attacking, stating "it just is, according to me" (paraquoting, obviously) doesn't cover it.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 03:45   #64
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Whoever made the change from support planets being illegal (circa r14-r19) to a shade of grey should be removed from their position and shot
Holy sweet Jesus man. Change it to a shade of grey? Random defs weren't illegal before, if anything this change clarified what a support planet is and removed the fuzziness from the definition.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 09:23   #65
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Coincidence sounds about right. You can have a bunch of supporters and be a cheater at the same time, the two are not mutually exclusive. Then you can close them for cheating, fine with me. Also, it has to be said that elviz hasn't been closed in quite a while! Pretty much since he joined Ascendancy, I believe, which was well over a year ago.
he may not have been closed, but JBG did acknowledge that elviz took salvage donations from his 'friends' to give him the round win in round 30.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG(10/6/2009)
I recently found out that elviz actually did go around and actively solicit salvage donations last round! If pateam wish to retroactively designate eksero as the winner of r30 that's cool with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG(10/6/2009)
Yeah, recently. I'd specifically told elviz not to ask anyone as I assumed his friends would have enough common sense to just attack him anyways if they were going to if he asked. That way he didn't break any rules.
see thread: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...heating&page=4

and post: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...&postcount=195

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster(10/6/2009)
what?! my dear lovely lars ( elviz ) in a pa cheating scandal?!

a quote from that thread also, and it is a sentiment that i agree with wholey (and has probably been reiterated in here anyway):

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG(10/6/2009)
...To me cheating is just retarded. If you sign up for a game you sign up in order to play by the rules of that game. Breaking those rules means you don't win.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 09:35   #66
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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
you used cov op first as a comparison to out of tag def for some reason.
I only mentioned cov ops after your post.
Right, as much as I hate getting into a meta-debate here, that comparison was not made to suggest a similarity between cov ops and support planets, but merely to illustrate that both are features of the game. Calling for game features to be removed because "well, I don't like them" is retarded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Pretty much is to me.
Your answer to "what is so different between attacking an defending, in the whole support planet debate?" appears to be "I like attacking, but I don't like defending". You know, yeah, I'm not feeling up to the task of providing arguments on this rather sub-zero level. Perhaps we can continue this discussion when you actually feel up to acknowledging how the whole "statement backed up by arguments" thing works. Let me know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek View Post
he may not have been closed, but JBG did acknowledge that elviz took salvage donations from his 'friends' to give him the round win in round 30.
Point stands. Also, farming is not multiing, salvage donations don't have to be from support planets and support planets still doesn't imply multiing.

(I'll admit to being wrong about elviz not cheating in the last year though!)

If you'd just quoted him properly, the quote itself would've contained a link to the post/thread.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 09:52   #67
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
If you'd just quoted him properly, the quote itself would've contained a link to the post/thread.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 10:00   #68
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
It's either multiing or it's not. Out of tag planets aren't relevant. It's also in no way an unfair advantage.
In addition to the rules which you discussed before, i.e. dont have more than one planet (totally unenforceable unless you are dealing with idiots as I have stated) and don't hack the game, I would consider alliance limits to be an attempt to hardcode a limit to the number of members in a "team".

OOT def can be used as a way to circumvent that and therefore provides an unfair advantage.

Last edited by HRH_H_Crab; 10 Dec 2009 at 10:13.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 10:02   #69
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Re: Support planet rule

So if everything that can be done ingame is by definition allowed and fair, why do we need MHs at all?
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 10:05   #70
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
So if everything that can be done ingame is by definition allowed and fair, why do we need MHs at all?
If thats directed with me, then I don't agree with it.
As I am fond of repeating the "don't share planets" rule and the "don't have more than one planet" are totally unenforceable.

The game design has no way of preventing that behavior.
It is trivial for organized people to multi and share planets until their hearts are content and there is nothing that anyone can do about it.

The purpose of the MH (as I see it) is just to deal with those people that attempt the above but are too stupid to do so effectively and therefore get caught.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 10:08   #71
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Re: Support planet rule

For the record, I wouldn't be at all against going back to the "bad old days" of mass cheating. You may as well declare the whole thing a free for all. Allow multis and planet sharing (since really all you can do is ask people nicely not to do that), bring back in-gal and in-alliance attacking and make the ONLY rule "don't hack the game".

On one hand that would totally screw anyone that is still daft enough to take the game seriously on any level whatsoever, but on the other hand, I might sign up a planet for a laugh!
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 10:19   #72
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab View Post
In addition to the rules which you discussed before, i.e. dont have more than one planet (totally unenforceable unless you are dealing with idiots as I have stated) and don't hack the game, I would consider alliance limits to be an attempt to hardcode a limit to the number of members in a "team".

OOT def can be used as a way to circumvent that and therefore provides an unfair advantage.
Clearly pateam don't consider OOT def to be worth getting rid of though. Otherwise it would be hardcoded out or the rule would say "no out of tag defence" as opposed to limit the amount of times you can def out of tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2
So if everything that can be done ingame is by definition allowed and fair, why do we need MHs at all?
What an utterly bizzare and totally random strawman argument. Moving swiftly on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
For the record, I wouldn't be at all against going back to the "bad old days" of mass cheating. You may as well declare the whole thing a free for all. Allow multis and planet sharing (since really all you can do is ask people nicely not to do that), bring back in-gal and in-alliance attacking and make the ONLY rule "don't hack the game".

On one hand that would totally screw anyone that is still daft enough to take the game seriously on any level whatsoever, but on the other hand, I might sign up a planet for a laugh!
I don't quite know if you're serious or if you're implying this is the essence of someone else's argument or what but a) I don't remember multiing ever being allowed and b) I don't remember a deficit of "serious" players in the early rounds of pa.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 10:34   #73
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Clearly pateam don't consider OOT def to be worth getting rid of though.
Honestly, who knows what they think?
The way I see things OOT def + the impossibility of preventing multis and planet sharers + the strongly held philosophy of people like your ex-alliance mate Mr Theamion that "it's only cheating if you get caught" makes the decision to not hardcode it out farcical - unless perhaps they just can't be arsed to deal with either some technical issues involved with this, or mass bleating that may result from people that have been using OOT def whether "morally" or "immorally".

In view of this, you can take my other suggestion entirely seriously.
Unless they can come up with a way to change the game so that multis and planet sharers don't have a massive advantage you may as well not have any rules.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 10:46   #74
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Re: Support planet rule

Hardcoding OOT def out of the game wouldnīt completely abolish the possible uses of support planets though. You can for example use them for def leeching before you launch real attacks. Also, itīs possible to some extend to try and exile into the same cluster as the planet you want to support, making the OOT def in cluster def and therefor basically viablea anyway.

Paisley constantly ignores the fact that support planets do not have to be multis at all. Itīs not that hard to get some people signup to support you every now and then. With the "run and hide" option people donīt even need to worry about getting the fleet killed while theyīre offline for a day. Also, everybody has the option to get people to sign up a planet to support you, if you choose not to do, you canīt exactly blame others. Itīs pretty much the along the lines of "I donīt have an alliance so itīs unfair others do". The option is there, you donīt need to cheat for it.
However, the main argument Paisley put forward is oog/oot use of support planets. Looking at the developement of the past rounds, with most allies not even filling their tags, thatīs pretty certainly not a valid point at all. While ship/roid farming and multiing is illegal anyway, thereīs no use for out of tag support planets since there is plenty of tag space available.
Itīs not exactly surprising though someone who has been disfavoured by strong alliance cooperation above the levels that used to be standard in the past what, 20 rounds or more, tries to find a way not to be faced with this cooperation again.
After all, this whole support planet rule argument here is not based on the actual use of support planets, but the out of tag def two allies sent each other.
That said, some other allies used it as well, maybe Paisleys ally didnīt get enough of the share and he doesnīt like it at all for that reason.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 11:02   #75
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
Hardcoding OOT def out of the game wouldnīt completely abolish the possible uses of support planets though.
Quite agree: the more I think about it, unless they can remove the advantages of multis and planet sharers, trying to enforce any "rules" other than "don't hack the servers" seems about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 12:37   #76
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
What an utterly bizzare and totally random strawman argument. Moving swiftly on...
That was actually the point. Next time i'll be sure to put my sarcasm / irony hat on.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 12:57   #77
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by jonnybgood View Post
god help us all please get rid of this rule or if you insist on having it ****ing hardcode it.
amen
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 14:04   #78
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab View Post
the strongly held philosophy of people like your ex-alliance mate Mr Theamion that "it's only cheating if you get caught" makes the decision to not hardcode it out farcical.
That's an injoke about ******** ages ago.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 15:05   #79
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Re: Support planet rule

I remember that gal banner.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 15:06   #80
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Re: Support planet rule

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I remember that gal banner.

yeah but i can't find it anywhere anymore. 20-20.jgp it was called.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 15:12   #81
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab View Post
Quite agree: the more I think about it, unless they can remove the advantages of multis and planet sharers, trying to enforce any "rules" other than "don't hack the servers" seems about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Besides the fact that you limit the freedom of the players with every rule.

If i take a look at the support planet rules i would violate some of them just by playing "freelancer" with a light connection to friends i played along with.

For example.
Quote:
Defense support planets (***):
These planets are those defending roughly more than the minimum of either 3 times per week or 25% of their defence fleets out of galaxy and alliance.
This rule is bendable like hell i could easy undermine the 25% on purpose if i would be aware of it ...
And the 3 times limitation harms my gameplay freedom.
If i would chose to play a round unallied to not get involved in the alliance stuff and would be willing to help some friends that are allied if i got in the mood and possibility to do so. This rule could obviously collide with my desired playstyle.

The funny part is the "***" obviously by creating this rule the creator of it was aware of this fact.

Quote:
*** The cases will be judged on their individual merits. Those consistently playing at the
limit of the rules may be taken into consideration, and there is always a right to appeal.
Why apply a rule that is harmful to the interest of some players and needs judgement in every case ?!?
Ignoring the fact that such rules tend to not be applied after all under this circumstances.

Well back from this to the OOT def.

If you would get rid of it you would erase all crossover ally cooperation.
You would force any none allied player into in gal stuff regardless if his unboundness is his own interest or because he can't get into a desired ally bunch, besides this maybe a way to get a foot in the door to join an alliance if you show your willingness to help this way.
etc.

Another reglementaion in the downward direction.
And because of what ? Beeing upset about rare OOT def or ally blocks that actualy coordinate out of tag def as strategicaly depth ? In all the rounds i played i had no real problem with OOT def anyway cause it was rarlely the case. Most of the support planets weren't even big ones because the effort into playing them was limited and therefor the benefit of their def were limited , too. Guess JBG was refering to this one allready. *shrug*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Having to choose a fi/co fleet as a non xan instead of a bs/cr fleet is what I call restricting my gameplay options (as I love having a bs/cr fleet and having the option to do a fake) just to "counter" support planets from defending against me.
I am still wondering how OOT def will force you into doing this as a main reason besides i still lack to see the difference on this point if it is OOT or general def. You can defend FR/DE and BS/CR waves in tag with lower class ships within 2 ticks anyway, why is the the OOT 1 tick possible lower class def disadvantage higher ranked than the in tag one ? Same reason why you would chose FI/CO instead of CR/BS . Ever heard of a strategy called recall/resend ?
You can outrun the OOT def if you are clever enough to use it.
If you cut the lower requirements on research and the mainly strategical reason to go fi/co as advantage in strategic reasons in general it maybe become one but would still be a weak one compared to the times i encounter this during the rounds i played.
The stats compared to general advantage of the lower eta and therefore less reaction time on attack fleets are mainly the reason to choose it this way , besides you can still obey this none the less.
And i wonder why you want "freedom" in this way with limiting "freedom" in another way (like the freelancer way i actualy did play in some rounds).
You would take strategic depth out of the game and restricting gameplay options (wich the actual support planet rules do allready ) for limiting an ignorable sideeffect or beneficial coordination from alliances in general.
Bit hypocrit i guess.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 16:43   #82
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab View Post
bring back in-gal [...] attacking
I don't think this is a serious suggestion, but on the off chance that it isn't: there are good game design reasons why this is a bad idea. For starters it'll allow the possibility that people get wiped out while they sleep. I don't see such reasons for the support planet rule.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 18:21   #83
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't see such reasons for the support planet rule.
Well I think the reason for the support planet rule is to deal with the fact that a lot of people consider that oogoocooa defense is dishonest in the sense that it seeks to abuse alliance tag limits, and could potentially indicate multis.

The first of these can be addressed by hardcoding.
The second can never be addressed, and neither can be planet sharing and I am pretty sure there are a metric arseload of people doing both these things, so really worrying about any rules in planetarion is pretty insane.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 18:29   #84
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Re: Support planet rule

That is simply retarded. OBVIOUSLY a player playing in another tag is not a multi, MHs can see that planets are being run seperately, if I want to defend newdawn, or Euph, or App even 4 or 5 times a week, who the hell is anyone to tell me I can't?

Why would I be suspected of cheating on some level just because I'm choosing to defend somebody else other than my alliance for a week?

Idiots.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 18:35   #85
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Re: Support planet rule

Kenny, my tag has x planets.
I have one, but the tag is now full.
I get an account on some machine from some cheap hosting company.
I then make another planet which could be in another tag, and use it to defend the ND planet.
Provided I am careful, multihunters will never know. It is not rocket surgery.
I have just signed up for an ISP that does ipv6. If PA get ip6 aware servers, I will show you punks some multi-ing. <---this bit isnt serious.
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Unread 10 Dec 2009, 20:02   #86
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab View Post
Kenny, my tag has x planets.
I have one, but the tag is now full.
I get an account on some machine from some cheap hosting company.
I then make another planet which could be in another tag, and use it to defend the ND planet.
Provided I am careful, multihunters will never know. It is not rocket surgery.
I have just signed up for an ISP that does ipv6. If PA get ip6 aware servers, I will show you punks some multi-ing. <---this bit isnt serious.
Since most tags are not even full, or have so many shit people in them if they are full, it would make a lot more sense to get ur multi into ur own tag.
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Unread 11 Dec 2009, 02:12   #87
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Re: Support planet rule

I couldn't help but noticing Paisley attacking a nearly fleetless scanner with 700k cath co.

Really having priorities aren't we Paisley?
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Unread 11 Dec 2009, 02:40   #88
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Re: Support planet rule

and what does that have to do with anything in this thread theam?
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Unread 11 Dec 2009, 10:46   #89
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Thumbs up Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Since most tags are not even full, or have so many shit people in them if they are full, it would make a lot more sense to get ur multi into ur own tag.
Thats a good point. The one thing I would find a bit tricky though, is if it is a decent alliance you might have to do some complex irc interaction as "two different people". Id be more comfortable being "myself" in my main alliance and playing as some bright eyed n00bie in the other alliance. Plus you can then get the other alliance to defend your multi and do some spying on the side. But yeah, you are right. If for some reason you don't have to worry about your alliance finding out about your multi then bung 'em both in the same tag.
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Unread 11 Dec 2009, 13:07   #90
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by LukeyLove View Post
I really dont care either way tbh. If it isnt gonna be enforced then it really shouldnt be in the 'rulebook' in the first place - if it is then it needs to be taken seriously which should start off by closing or at least warning the biggest offenders. Either way I am happy but the current 'a rule that everyone politely ignores' system really isnt working.

I am however more worried about how many blatent farming episodes there have been this round, with no action taken to close them. Did remy do all the closing and the current MH's enjoy afk'ing and/or feeling important?
Oh, funny. Your gal?
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Unread 11 Dec 2009, 13:37   #91
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Talking Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Right, as much as I hate getting into a meta-debate here, that comparison was not made to suggest a similarity between cov ops and support planets, but merely to illustrate that both are features of the game. Calling for game features to be removed because "well, I don't like them" is retarded.
Your answer to "what is so different between attacking an defending, in the whole support planet debate?" appears to be "I like attacking, but I don't like defending". You know, yeah, I'm not feeling up to the task of providing arguments on this rather sub-zero level. Perhaps we can continue this discussion when you actually feel up to acknowledging how the whole "statement backed up by arguments" thing works. Let me know.
Point stands. Also, farming is not multiing, salvage donations don't have to be from support planets and support planets still doesn't imply multiing.
Not all support planets are Multis but shock horror all Multis seem to be coincidently support planets. the plot thickens

The fundamental differences between attacking and defending
The main planet doesnt want his nice support planets to take up the nice roid cap if he can land it alone. (if it is a Fleetcatch I am sure they will come in handy to add to the required defense tolerance needed to force a recall)

With defense support planets in comparision to planets that play properly can be regarded as expendable if they crash, retaling isnt much of a deterent to force a recall. and surprisingly they can be respawned quite easy. And have the required def ships on demand whilst an intag ally member might have the required ships out on attack/returning.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
(I'll admit to being wrong about elviz not cheating in the last year though!)
As <3 as Elviz is (And sorry for cov oping you stupid early on in the round elviz) .... he is a reknown cheater and to claim that he is on the mend

Was you serious / was talking shite or were you just having a laugh?

edit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
I couldn't help but noticing Paisley attacking a nearly fleetless scanner with 700k cath co.

Really having priorities aren't we Paisley?
The scanner was a bit of a fatty ... it was a retal.
and I wish I had 700k co
Anyway it is going off topic.

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Originally Posted by Baracke View Post
I am still wondering how OOT def will force you into doing this as a main reason besides i still lack to see the difference on this point if it is OOT or general def. You can defend FR/DE and BS/CR waves in tag with lower class ships within 2 ticks anyway, why is the the OOT 1 tick possible lower class def disadvantage higher ranked than the in tag one ? Same reason why you would chose FI/CO instead of CR/BS . Ever heard of a strategy called recall/resend ?
You can outrun the OOT def if you are clever enough to use it.
If you cut the lower requirements on research and the mainly strategical reason to go fi/co as advantage in strategic reasons in general it maybe become one but would still be a weak one compared to the times i encounter this during the rounds i played.
The stats compared to general advantage of the lower eta and therefore less reaction time on attack fleets are mainly the reason to choose it this way , besides you can still obey this none the less.
And i wonder why you want "freedom" in this way with limiting "freedom" in another way (like the freelancer way i actualy did play in some rounds).
You would take strategic depth out of the game and restricting gameplay options (wich the actual support planet rules do allready ) for limiting an ignorable sideeffect or beneficial coordination from alliances in general.
Bit hypocrit i guess.
I'll talk you through the mechanics of it ... also feel free to visit #strategy. On the basis that everyone has researched hypergate aka eta -4.
Aswell as the support planet Isnt Ingal and in the same cluster to the target.

Your fi/co fleet has a eta of 8 in base (eta 7 when it goes "red")
The Out of Tag (oot) from the target can only do an eta of 8 which means they cant do the eta and hence cant interfere with the landing.

If you launch say a frig fleet.
Which has a eta of 9 (eta 8 when it goes "red")
The OOT def cant send frig/de/cr/bs as it cant make the eta
however it can send fi/co class anti frig to the target within the eta.

the Only way OOT def can defend against a fi/co fleet is to predict the landing tick via getting a jpg of the target and have a guess at the landing tick and set the mission accordingly.

Fleetcatches and catching a higher class fleet out of base (your fi/co fleet is eta 7 to attack when the targets de/frig fleet is eta 8 return) cant be sent recall and sent again as the timing has to be precise.

Any questions?
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Unread 11 Dec 2009, 17:13   #92
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
Hardcoding OOT def out of the game wouldnīt completely abolish the possible uses of support planets though.
IF the support planet is able to provide scans / intel thats fine but not showing up on my JGP scan of my target and without consequence if it is on a 1 way trip to the target.

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
Paisley constantly ignores the fact that support planets do not have to be multis at all.
No.... I called them sad [email protected][email protected]$ in a earlier post

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
Itīs not that hard to get some people signup to support you every now and then. With the "run and hide" option people donīt even need to worry about getting the fleet killed while theyīre offline for a day. Also, everybody has the option to get people to sign up a planet to support you, if you choose not to do, you canīt exactly blame others. Itīs pretty much the along the lines of "I donīt have an alliance so itīs unfair others do". The option is there, you donīt need to cheat for it.
However, the main argument Paisley put forward is oog/oot use of support planets. Looking at the developement of the past rounds, with most allies not even filling their tags, thatīs pretty certainly not a valid point at all.
You have to ask what players of what alliances have support planets via multi-ing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
thereīs no use for out of tag support planets since there is plenty of tag space available.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
That said, some other allies used it as well, maybe Paisleys ally didnīt get enough of the share and he doesnīt like it at all for that reason.
The only support planets we had at Subh were scanners and a few spies.
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 02:20   #93
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Re: Support planet rule

So, after let's call it "a while", I'l make a post on the forums again.
There as actually only been typed a single sensable reply in this thread.

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
God help us all please get rid of this rule or if you insist on having it ****ing hardcode it.
The way it is clear don't work, and/or actually does not sattisfy the players.
So, haveing the rule hardcoded would problly lead to even less variation in the game, as you would botleup the unpredictable factors. And quite effectivly ruin suprices/attack's/the urge to actually try to get some defence from friends.

And here we are on the point, the scarping of the rule.
Why? Allowing pepole to actually play again. Versus haveing to follow tre-four actions over and over agan. Actually the actions would be the same, but with a bit of variation.
Why again? Variation creats fun!
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 06:19   #94
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Re: Support planet rule

so, the only sensible post was on u dont really agree with?
theres been several here who has said to just get rid of the rule entirley hardcoding things sucks.
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 14:03   #95
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab View Post
Well I think the reason for the support planet rule is to deal with the fact that a lot of people consider that oogoocooa defense is dishonest in the sense that it seeks to abuse alliance tag limits, and could potentially indicate multis.

The first of these can be addressed by hardcoding.
The second can never be addressed, and neither can be planet sharing and I am pretty sure there are a metric arseload of people doing both these things, so really worrying about any rules in planetarion is pretty insane.
I have to say I'd be fairly surprised if there was a load of multiing etc going on in pa still. I'm not disagreeing with you that it might be relatively easy but most people just, well, don't.
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 16:02   #96
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
IF the support planet is able to provide scans / intel thats fine but not showing up on my JGP scan of my target and without consequence if it is on a 1 way trip to the target.
So a scan support planet would be fine with you? That would however free up tag spaces for in tag def planets, while the scanners can overall fund their expenses by cov ops if they can be bothered. Also, it wouldnīt adress the mentioned option of having support planets run def leech attacks before you launch your real fleets.

Quote:
No.... I called them sad [email protected][email protected]$ in a earlier post
Might have missed/forgotten that.

Quote:
You have to ask what players of what alliances have support planets via multi-ing.
I do wonder who bothers about creating them, tbh. Not that hard to find some former players and bug them into creating a support planet for you.


Quote:
The only support planets we had at Subh were scanners and a few spies.
You actually have real out of tag support planets opposed to the def sharing allies applied this round? Man, that makes you worse than all of us.


As to JBG latest reply:

Quote:
I have to say I'd be fairly surprised if there was a load of multiing etc going on in pa still. I'm not disagreeing with you that it might be relatively easy but most people just, well, don't.
I guess with mobile internet access via phone the use/need for account sharing at least has been gently reduced.
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 16:25   #97
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
So a scan support planet would be fine with you? That would however free up tag spaces for in tag def planets, while the scanners can overall fund their expenses by cov ops if they can be bothered. Also, it wouldnīt adress the mentioned option of having support planets run def leech attacks before you launch your real fleets.
Thats certainly a valid point about def soaking... but even support planets need roids :P

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
Might have missed/forgotten that.
Fair dues

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
You actually have real out of tag support planets opposed to the def sharing allies applied this round? Man, that makes you worse than all of us.
The scanners were brought into tag eventually and also the spies were in other alliances tags but didnt def subh. the spies did have to join the respective allies tags and send def to keep their cover
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 17:56   #98
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Re: Support planet rule

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Thats certainly a valid point about def soaking... but even support planets need roids :P
Which brings me to a thought I had all the time: Def support planets tend to have pretty one sided fleets (as they arenīt really big mostly they need to concentrate on a certain def ship to be effective) and can rather easily be roided, which makes up for it to some (limited) degree.

Quote:
The scanners were brought into tag eventually and also the spies were in other alliances tags but didnt def subh. the spies did have to join the respective allies tags and send def to keep their cover
Probably should have put a smiley behind my comment as I wasnīt dead serious there, though the basic point would have been correct, as I stated earlier in my post out of tag scanners would at least free up spots in tag for "real planets".
I donīt bother about spies really, as you said they need to participate in the actions of the alliance they spy on so their options for sending support fleets to their real alliance are rather limited if it isnīt ingal, which would be fine anyway.

Iīd still like to see proof on a relevant use of support planets though. I said earlier I canīt remember seeing it much at all for a long time - keep in mind I donīt consider the cooperation of two allies as "use of support planets".
In the end, I think one of the basic question in this discussion should be whether support planets are an issue at all or not.
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Unread 12 Dec 2009, 18:34   #99
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Re: Support planet rule

Oh man. This whole attempt by some to want to capture the game as it is 'supposed' to be played in their eyes with rules and whatnot is funny.


With funny I mean that I get an almost uncontrollable urge to poke my eyes out with a glowing red-hot spoon.

Part of the charm, which some are desperately trying to remove, is the meta-game. Personally I dislike alliance tags, as I have an irrational nostalgia for the old ways, but the way things go now are good enough.
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Unread 17 Dec 2009, 12:30   #100
HRH_H_Crab
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Re: Support planet rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I have to say I'd be fairly surprised if there was a load of multiing etc going on in pa still. I'm not disagreeing with you that it might be relatively easy but most people just, well, don't.
The problem both of us would have when it comes to discussing this, is that it is totally impossible to determine what the level of cheating is and I find it surprising that you seem very sure about that.

If we can agree about how easy it is to cheat in this way, perhaps we could agree that it is at least plausible that for every "incompetent" cheat that is detected (and there are a few of them every round) there might well be one or two who are not incompetent?

Humans are extremely resourceful creatures and exploiting opportunities to gain a competitive advantage must be one of the strongest drivers of human development since the species first appeared on earth.

I think the "flaws" (I see them as such) in the game design which I have referred to provide incredibly rich opportunities for exploitation.

I would therefore be incredibly surprised if there weren't a lot of people exploiting them.
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