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31 Aug 2007, 08:26
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#1
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
The manual is still talking about engineering there.
Could one of the support team people responsible of the shitty manual please replace this nonsense, and maybe also ensure the covert operation formulae, alertness formulae, and such, are presented in the manual as they are in game.
Thanks.
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31 Aug 2007, 08:31
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#2
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Also, the formulae page of the manual says that cathaar and eitrades get 20% and 40% salvage bonus respectively, while the races page says that eitrades don't get that shit, but terrans get 20 and cathaars 40.
Which one is correct?
Who was the head of the support team again?
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31 Aug 2007, 08:35
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#3
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
I was also trying to find out more about becoming immune to covert operations by clicking the link in the Constructions page of the manual that said I'd get more information from. Obviously, it didn't make me much smarter, as the whole covert ops page didn't really discuss immunity. It's not in the formulae either.
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31 Aug 2007, 08:43
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#4
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Happy
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canada eh
Posts: 4,793
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
hi we're working on it thanks. you could come to #support and ask nicely... or even ask nicely on the forums... no need to get angry :\
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31 Aug 2007, 08:57
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#5
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Last time Kal spoke about it being worked on, the #support had 20+ voiced people in it (presumably support team members), and it was stated that the manual was one of the three main functions of this 20 man group. Realistically, how long does it take? Will it be possible to have the manual include a reasonably understandable explanation regarding alertness, covert operations, and involved in a modern day terminology -before the round starts-? The population replaced engineering what, two rounds ago?
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31 Aug 2007, 09:04
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#6
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Happy
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canada eh
Posts: 4,793
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
just because they're voiced doesn't mean they have access to make the changes :\ but yes it is possible.. a couple of the pages have been edited already (ofc not the ones you mentioned :\) so it's getting done and i'm positive it'll get done soon regardless of any promises in the past.
__________________
Where ever you go, there you are.
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31 Aug 2007, 09:06
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#7
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Well, there's still quite a few hours until it starts ticking so. Just a note, if there is a ton of voiced people there, why are they voiced there, if they aren't support team members, ie. members of the team whose three main priorities include maintaining the manual? Surely any voiced person is able to, when for example instructed by the head of support, rewrite a piece of the manual and hand it to a person who can then apply the changes?
f.ex
Quote:
Originally Posted by manual
Cathaar and Eitraides get a bonus of 20% and 40% on these salvage rates respectively - so for example Cathaar get 18% and 24% from their share of salvage from attackers and defenders respectively.
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replace with
Quote:
Terran and Cathaar get a bonus of 20% and 40% on these salvage rates respectively - so for example Terrans get 18% and 24% from their share of salvage from attackers and defenders respectively.
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Took me one minute and thirtyeight seconds roughly. Now one of those brave voiced support persons could do the same for the whole page, and hand it over to someone in charge of things, who would then check through it, and apply it. Hard? Maybe not.
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31 Aug 2007, 09:12
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#8
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Happy
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canada eh
Posts: 4,793
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
the voiced people are support team.. i meant more like they don't necessarily have admin access to change the manual themselves. but yes they can submit manual changes to someone who can.
__________________
Where ever you go, there you are.
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31 Aug 2007, 09:15
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#9
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
So the 20-man (and more) team has taken more than two rounds to get the engineering replaced with the modern equivalent (there hasn't been an admin around for two rounds and more to make the changes isn't a valid excuse). Maybe it's time to kick some deadweight out of the "support team"?
Also, if you do have a clear view of how the alertness rate and stealth rate function, could you please write it down here so we can observe it whilst it waits to get added to the manual.
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31 Aug 2007, 09:29
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#10
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Happy
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canada eh
Posts: 4,793
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
i don't i've been away since r14 so i'm just learning all this stuff myself :\
i'm also not in charge of support so it's not my call to remove anyone.
__________________
Where ever you go, there you are.
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31 Aug 2007, 10:06
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#11
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Are you in fact a member of the support team at all, or are you just coming up with random replies? In the case that you are, you wouldn't happen to know how the alertness and covert op formulae function in a post-engineering period?
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31 Aug 2007, 10:14
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#12
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Keizari, watch yourself. Why be this hostile? This thread has only been here for an hour and a half, I'm sure that once the right people have woken up and logged on then they'll answer you as best as they can.
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Finally free!
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31 Aug 2007, 10:30
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#13
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Unfortunately the manual was out of date - the last round one, currently shown in the speedgame, is correct.
I therefore just copied over the entry.
__________________
r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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31 Aug 2007, 10:34
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#14
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Keizari, watch yourself. Why be this hostile? This thread has only been here for an hour and a half, I'm sure that once the right people have woken up and logged on then they'll answer you as best as they can.
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Admitted.
This thread hasn't been here for long, but the manual has been there for a fair couple of months already, and this really isn't the first time it's discussed, is it?
ps. And there's a fair share of people who don't participate in speedgames where they could view a "correct" manual.
pps. The immunity bit mentioned on the constructions -page is still missing. Is it still possible to be immune, and how much does it require?
ppps. Stealth
Quote:
You can also get a bonus percentage increase in your stealth and alert recovery depending on your security workers in population and your government (though population has no effect on stealth recovery). This is in the form of base_recovery*bonus_from_government (rounded down). Alert ratings is covered below.
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So technically, a zikonian democrat whose stealth increases 6 per tick gets a +15% stealth bonus (bonus from government) times base recovery (6); which translates to 0.15*6 = 0.9 which rounds down to zero bonus to stealth recovery am I correct?
Are alertness recoveries rounded up or down?
pppps.
What about the salvage rates? The formulae page mentions that eitrades get 40% and cathaar get 20%. The races -page gives it different, but the changelogs say the races table directly copies the database, so the formulae is incorrect, right?
Last edited by Tietäjä; 31 Aug 2007 at 10:57.
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31 Aug 2007, 10:58
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#15
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Are you in fact a member of the support team at all, or are you just coming up with random replies? In the case that you are, you wouldn't happen to know how the alertness and covert op formulae function in a post-engineering period?
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Base alert is calculated with the following formula:
[alert] = 70 * (1 + ( [population on security] + [government bonus] + 2 * min( 100 * [security centres] / [total constructions] , 30 ) ) / 100 )
min(a,b) means "take whichever is smaller, a or b"
Additionally, every succesful covert operation adds 10 alert over the theoretical maximum, meaning it's better to do one 30 agent cov op than 2 15 agent cov op (not to mention that the second is more expensive as well, but more on this later).
When your alert is above or below the theoretical maximum (either because you recently changed population, or because you got cov opped, or anything else that could change the element in the above alert formula), the following formulae are used to determine how much alert you lose or gain.
If it's too high:
[new alert] = [old alert] - 6 * ( 1 - ( [government bonus] + population on security ) / 100 )
If it's too low:
[new alert] = [old alert] + 3 * ( 1 + ( [government bonus] + population on security ) / 100 )
Then when someone attempts to cov op you, this happens:
First, the cost is deducted from your account:
[cost] = [agents] * 1000 of each
Then, you calculate your new stealth using this formula:
[new stealth] = [old stealth] - ( 5 + int( [agents used] / 2 ) )
int(x) means take everything before the comma. 15.1 becomes 15, 15.999 becomes 15 as well.
Then your chance to get through is calculated:
[value] = random(20) + [new stealth] - [target alert]
If [value] is bigger than 1, the operation succeeds. If it's not, the operation fails.
That's pretty much it, I guess.
[edit] Damn you Appoco
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 31 Aug 2007 at 12:19.
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31 Aug 2007, 11:00
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#16
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Yeah, which is actually now in the manual - now that someone was bothered to add it there.
The question you left unanswered, though, was the one regarding stealth recoveries and government bonus, and alertness recoveries and rounding.
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31 Aug 2007, 11:04
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#17
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
I think government bonuses are rounded dow, as well as alert increases and decreases. I'm not sure about this though.
As for immunity:
Immunity from x agent covert operations is calculated like this
[max stealth] = int( [max base stealth] * (1 + [max government stealth bonus] / 100) )
[needed alert] = 19 + [max stealth] - int( 5 + [agents] / 2)
This round, [max base stealth] = 100, and [max government stealth bonus] = 15. Also remember that there is no covert operation that uses less than 5 agents.
Play around a bit, and you get the value of 127 alert for total immunity.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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31 Aug 2007, 12:10
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#18
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Happy
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canada eh
Posts: 4,793
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Are you in fact a member of the support team at all, or are you just coming up with random replies? In the case that you are, you wouldn't happen to know how the alertness and covert op formulae function in a post-engineering period?
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newly added, and yes i'll be working on the in-game manual. as stated before i'm just learning this stuff myself but i'll have it all updated asap.
the new manual (on the new portal) is also being worked on however unfortunately it'll take as bit longer. my goal is to get the in-game manual sorted first. the current manual you're looking at probably won't be updated as the new one will replace it. Appoco is doing his best to update it as people make things aware to us.
i'm doing my best and if you'd like to help me out (in a non-nda way) by emailing me suggestions/changes (or finding me on irc) i'd appreciate it.
i was waiting for an announcement before posting this but screw it :P
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Where ever you go, there you are.
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31 Aug 2007, 12:37
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#19
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryn
i'm doing my best and if you'd like to help me out (in a non-nda way) by emailing me suggestions/changes (or finding me on irc) i'd appreciate it.
i was waiting for an announcement before posting this but screw it :P
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Agreed, the PA team has a long resume of leaving the announcing of things to the last bit for no significant reasons. Perhaps it's the premature announcement and further failure of the passport system, but generally it's better to keep people informed than not.
I think by doing a simple forum search you'd find several threads where a lot of flaws in the current manual are being pointed out, but I guess that's a nonissue too with the total revamp expected. Thanks for the note, but I don't think I'll have the interest and time available to work on it. Otherwise I would've figured the covert operations -related numbers myself. You should maybe recruit Mzyxptlk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Play around a bit, and you get the value of 127 alert for total immunity.
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Thank you.
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31 Aug 2007, 12:39
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#20
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Alertness, Covert operations, and shit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
You should maybe recruit Mzyxptlk.
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No thanks, I'm busy enough for another game already.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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