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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 05:09   #51
Munkee
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Re: No more IRC

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Originally Posted by Pit View Post
I wish I could like TG, but I can't. They claim to be secure, but don't encrypt chats by default, can't encrypt group chats at all and when they do encrypt, it's all home-grown crypto. It's terrible. Worse, it could have (should have) been good.
I may be missing the big picture here or maybe I'm just not that bothered by it at a personal level but WHY does an online game chat NEED end to end encryption? I don't get why this is suddenly a part of criteria for picking a platform. Does IRC have end to end encryption? Last I checked it doesn't and we (some people) happily chat through it?
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 10:56   #52
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Re: No more IRC

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
I may be missing the big picture here or maybe I'm just not that bothered by it at a personal level but WHY does an online game chat NEED end to end encryption?
It doesn't. I didn't bother to mention that Discord doesn't have it. Or Slack. My problem with Telegram is that one of their main selling points is that they're "private". Slack and Discord don't have e2e either, but they make no such claim.

So yeah, my problem with TG is more philosophical than technical. But there's still no way in hell I'm using it or going to in any way encourage others to do so.
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 14:45   #53
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Re: No more IRC

I wouldn't believe the media hype. Telegram were one of the first publicised by media to offer encrypted communication. They never mentioned end to end by default, they just said that communication runs through server to client encryption via their mtproto library and then specific client to client encryption through their secret chats.

Theres a nice discussion on the subjects in their faq https://core.telegram.org/techfaq#q-...nsert-solution
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 15:12   #54
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Re: No more IRC

Pit is correct. Flawed security is worse than having no security at all.
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 15:53   #55
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Re: No more IRC

I'm a little baffled, who is it exactly that is supposed to be interested in reading out chats about a browser based game? We aren't exactly working with security clearance stuff here... Not even a valid criteria in my eyes.

I understand however that change can be hard, especially with a vocal deep rooted minority which makes any transition to an IRC alternative more challenging than the derived benefits in the short-term.

Thus a transition is unlikely and probably not worth further discussion, especially considering every round of PA is played like it is one of its last!
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 15:55   #56
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Re: No more IRC

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
I wouldn't believe the media hype. Telegram were one of the first publicised by media to offer encrypted communication.
So you're saying they're great because of media hype, but I shouldn't believe it?

c2s encryption has been on most services for a long time. The "media hype" claiming TG was special was because TG devs pushed it as a major selling point. The first point on their front page "Why switch to Telegram" says "Private - Telegram messages are heavily encrypted and can self-destruct.".

They don't loudly say e2e encrypted everywhere, but they make a lot of claims about privacy/security that are based on "secret chats". "Secret chats" are still not enabled by default and are not available for group chats.

Note that Whatsapp is all e2e now, including groups, and has been for a while. And they're owned by Facebook. And that's using published, open algorithms that TG could adopt if they wanted.

I've read their FAQ, and advanced FAQ, many times. Because I want to like it. But it's bad. I think more through incompetence than ill intent, but it's still bad.
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 15:57   #57
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Re: No more IRC

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Originally Posted by Lukey View Post
I'm a little baffled, who is it exactly that is supposed to be interested in reading out chats about a browser based game? We aren't exactly working with security clearance stuff here... Not even a valid criteria in my eyes.
Please read the thread before posting.

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Originally Posted by Pit View Post
It doesn't. I didn't bother to mention that Discord doesn't have it. Or Slack. My problem with Telegram is that one of their main selling points is that they're "private". Slack and Discord don't have e2e either, but they make no such claim.

So yeah, my problem with TG is more philosophical than technical. But there's still no way in hell I'm using it or going to in any way encourage others to do so.
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 17:49   #58
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Re: No more IRC

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Please read the thread before posting.
I read the thread, please post your aggressive valueless comments elsewhere.
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 18:08   #59
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Re: No more IRC

Lukey, your question had already been answered, twice, both by Pit and by me. Here it is a third time, phrased in yet another different way:

The problem is not that Telegram is insecure. The problem is that it misleads people into believing it's secure. The emphasis is on the misleading, not on the insecurity. When people think they're talking securely, they might say all kinds of things that really should remain secret.

I'm going to repeat that, to ensure no one is going to argue "but who cares about whether conversations about PA are secure or not?". Telegram is not bad because it's insecure; it's not bad because PA conversations must at all times remain secure; it's bad because it makes people believe their chats are secure when in reality they aren't. This lie might lead them to talk about other things that should remain private.
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 18:31   #60
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Re: No more IRC

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Lukey, your question had already been answered, twice, both by Pit and by me. Here it is a third time, phrased in yet another different way:

The problem is not that Telegram is insecure. The problem is that it misleads people into believing it's secure. The emphasis is on the misleading, not on the insecurity. When people think they're talking securely, they might say all kinds of things that really should remain secret.

I'm going to repeat that, to ensure no one is going to argue "but who cares about whether conversations about PA are secure or not?". Telegram is not bad because it's insecure; it's not bad because PA conversations must at all times remain secure; it's bad because it makes people believe their chats are secure when in reality they aren't. This lie might lead them to talk about other things that should remain private.
You saying that telegram is misleading people to belive its secure, aint that you misleading people that any conversation in whatever program on the internet is secure?
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 19:21   #61
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Re: No more IRC

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Lukey, your question had already been answered, twice, both by Pit and by me. Here it is a third time, phrased in yet another different way:

The problem is not that Telegram is insecure. The problem is that it misleads people into believing it's secure. The emphasis is on the misleading, not on the insecurity. When people think they're talking securely, they might say all kinds of things that really should remain secret.

I'm going to repeat that, to ensure no one is going to argue "but who cares about whether conversations about PA are secure or not?". Telegram is not bad because it's insecure; it's not bad because PA conversations must at all times remain secure; it's bad because it makes people believe their chats are secure when in reality they aren't. This lie might lead them to talk about other things that should remain private.
I understand the point Mz, but I don't see the relevance or concern.

What on earth are people talking about that they need to worry about it being secure? What sort of insidious weirdos do we think exist in the PA community? If anyone is talking about anything suitably nefarious to be concerned, I'd happily see their downfall. The whole security issue seems irrelevant to the entire thread.
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 21:09   #62
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Re: No more IRC

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
You saying that telegram is misleading people to belive its secure, aint that you misleading people that any conversation in whatever program on the internet is secure?
Decades of computer security has taught us which approaches and guidelines work well to create secure systems, and Telegram has ignored them. If you want to learn more about cryptography and computer security, then there are plenty of courses and books available. It's beyond the scope of what I can reasonably fit in a forum post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukey View Post
I understand the point Mz, but I don't see the relevance or concern.

What on earth are people talking about that they need to worry about it being secure? What sort of insidious weirdos do we think exist in the PA community? If anyone is talking about anything suitably nefarious to be concerned, I'd happily see their downfall. The whole security issue seems irrelevant to the entire thread.
I'm sorry, but I've run out of ways to explain it.
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 23:34   #63
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Re: No more IRC

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Decades of computer security has taught us which approaches and guidelines work well to create secure systems, and Telegram has ignored them. If you want to learn more about cryptography and computer security, then there are plenty of courses and books available. It's beyond the scope of what I can reasonably fit in a forum post.
No.
What people might not think is that information in any of your discussions might be hacked even if its in a private channel/message or in a public channel, if your using telegram opposed to what ever other options u got. What ever ecryption IRC/WA/whatever is using, its prolly allready been cracked a long long time ago.
The security of any system is as secure as the weakest link.
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Unread 1 Aug 2017, 23:42   #64
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Re: No more IRC

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I'm sorry, but I've run out of ways to explain it.
How about the longevity game, advertising you're secure will lead to people testing as such and once they inevitably find that insecurity the games over and so is your platform.


Moving from IRC to any of these platforms is fraught with potential disasters and the true fact is that regardless of UX IRC has always been a stable platform and just works, i don't feel that the community will settle on any new platform especially not when the driving forces behind the game are pretty much dinosaurs, if they see no need to use social media to promote the game i hardly think they'll be willing to move their social crowd (sorry thats what #planetarion is, it isn't a business because they see no profit from their work so they do whatever the hell they want regardless of wether it benefits the game) to another platform.

The community clearly wants change in this (if this aint obvious go play the damn game and realize no galaxy uses irc) to keep with the times but you will receive absolutely no input from anyone from the PA admin team, hell id be impressed if anyone of them even noticed anything anyone has ever said on the forums even though they try to force people to use it by offering ingame incentives... prolly just to justify the spend on this vbulletin nonsense license they have.

I guess this thread like most is just pissing in the wind.
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Unread 2 Aug 2017, 03:10   #65
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Re: No more IRC

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Originally Posted by vuLgAr View Post
The community clearly wants change in this (if this aint obvious go play the damn game and realize no galaxy uses irc)
discord seems nice, I like IRC, but yeah its a pain in the ass getting a gal which uses irc
did not TFD have a desktop icon which turned red when they had incoming ? I think i heard tell of that back then, but yes the present common communication methods would be some form of social media, if we as a community wish to grow, re attract old players we should visit some form of commonplace current communication method.
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Unread 2 Aug 2017, 08:20   #66
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Re: No more IRC

Maybe we need a vote - start a movement and see if it gains any traction. If not, its no skin off my back and if it works then we can all hail lukey for his initial post.
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Unread 2 Aug 2017, 08:42   #67
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Re: No more IRC

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Maybe we need a vote - start a movement and see if it gains any traction. If not, its no skin off my back and if it works then we can all hail lukey for his initial post.
Half the universe is swearing to WA, or worse slack, for no reason what so fcking ever, whats the odds u would get that half and the other half thats currently using TG to move discord or any other program
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Unread 2 Aug 2017, 09:13   #68
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Re: No more IRC

IF this was going to happen (which it isn't) the PA team would need to endorse/link/support said client on the game pages.

Currently if you are new/returning the game tells you to use iRC to join PAs official channels. All its Support network is on iRC.

Appoco isnt gonna shaft the iRC staff who provide support and move. It's been too long now.

The best you can hope for is that the alliances (probably in #alliances, decide on a communal app and push it as one team across PA. It's between TG and Discord. It's a bit of a toss up, personally I prefer TG. I know munkee prefers discord but if it was actually discussed and a consensus was accepted or even if it was narrowed down to 2 app from the current 4-5 that would be a good start.
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Unread 2 Aug 2017, 11:45   #69
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Re: No more IRC

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
What people might not think is that information in any of your discussions might be hacked even if its in a private channel/message or in a public channel, if your using telegram opposed to what ever other options u got. What ever ecryption IRC/WA/whatever is using, its prolly allready been cracked a long long time ago.
What do you base that opinion on?

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Originally Posted by vuLgAr View Post
How about the longevity game, advertising you're secure will lead to people testing as such and once they inevitably find that insecurity the games over and so is your platform.
And yet, Telegram is still here. Turns out convincing people to use the right thing and use it correctly is even harder than designing and implementing the actual security itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vuLgAr View Post
I guess this thread like most is just pissing in the wind.
Yeah, I posted something like that earlier on, but apparently it got deleted. The community can't even agree which of the 5 platforms to use. Even if PA Team did pick one of them, and came up with a comprehensive and well thought out plan to move to one of them, you only need to look at this thread to see how unwilling people are to consider switching to a platform they are not already using.
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Unread 2 Aug 2017, 12:54   #70
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Re: No more IRC

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I know munkee prefers discord but if it was actually discussed and a consensus was accepted or even if it was narrowed down to 2 app from the current 4-5 that would be a good start.
Fake news. I prefer telegram but I like to remain neutral and I can see discord is popular in other gaming communities
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Unread 9 Aug 2017, 19:57   #71
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Re: No more IRC

Ok #planetarion exists on telegram now we have 180 members so far feel free to join:

https://t.me/joinchat/A5Y_KUOSd7DQQgYL0051pQ
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Unread 9 Aug 2017, 21:09   #72
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Re: No more IRC

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Ok #planetarion exists on telegram now we have 180 members so far feel free to join:

https://t.me/joinchat/A5Y_KUOSd7DQQgYL0051pQ
For those who dont want to leave irc:

#tgrelay has been set up.

Happy for someone to host that stuff though I have little interest in running it forever but Jintao asked kindly.. and needs someone to make stats apparently!
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Unread 10 Aug 2017, 03:05   #73
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Re: No more IRC

Now i expect LuckeyLove to push ND away from that asocial slack sh*t and back to TG/IRC so ND members can mingle aswell.
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Unread 10 Aug 2017, 03:28   #74
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Re: No more IRC

We currently have 200 people in the group. Thanks to those for joining and sharing it's been great to see so many people interacting again. Unreal how disconnected the community had been
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Unread 11 Aug 2017, 21:35   #75
Damakles
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Join Date: May 2015
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 25
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Re: No more IRC

Its great to see the community coming together again. IRC is too old and has been left behind. Soo many other, better options are available for online communications now.

Munkee has done great with the Telegram #planetarion channel. 202 members currently in it as I type this.

PA Team should be doing more... but that's asking too much.

I think the round 73 EoRC on IRC should be boycotted. Not just for the fact it takes place in 1998 every year but also for the fact that the questions asked are so far out of touch with what actually happens during the round.

Place your bets now if we will ever see a Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, WhatsApp logo on the Planetarion homepage for advertising purposes? Getting more people into the game? Getting more upgraded planets?... Ill give people long odds...
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