Salvage for Stealing

[Achilles]

For those who don't like me very much. Good news:
http://game.planetarion.com/show_news.pl?id=9367

My first time being fleetcaught in many rounds of Planetarion, congrats to eXilition. 11 fleets launched between 9 seconds and 1 second to the tick (I had a scan at 10 seconds to.)

In any case, enough preamble and on to the reason for this thread. If ships are stolen instead of killed you get no salvage for them. I was actually not aware of this, having never been in a position where I've had ships stolen like that. I thought the whole idea of salvage was to compensate people for the ships they lost so they could rebuild a little and carry on playing?

Now I'm not whinging, nor am I looking for salvage for this battle. I'm simply interested in whether people think there should be salvage for stolen ships in general? Even though I know it's not all that realistic I still don't personally think someone should be doubly screwed over just because he lost a fight to a Zikonian fleet rather than a Xan or Terr. It seems terribly unbalanced. Comments?

ps. Any who are going to choose the rather obvious road of "OMG, WHINGER" when composing their replies should bear in mind I play Zik. This change would help others a lot more than me.

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Achilles

For those who don't like me very much. Good news:
http://game.planetarion.com/show_news.pl?id=9367

My first time being fleetcaught in many rounds of Planetarion, congrats to eXilition. 11 fleets launched between 9 seconds and 1 second to the tick (I had a scan at 10 seconds to.)

In any case, enough preamble and on to the reason for this thread. If ships are stolen instead of killed you get no salvage for them. I was actually not aware of this, having never been in a position where I've had ships stolen like that. I thought the whole idea of salvage was to compensate people for the ships they lost so they could rebuild a little and carry on playing?

Now I'm not whinging, nor am I looking for salvage for this battle. I'm simply interested in whether people think there should be salvage for stolen ships in general? Even though I know it's not all that realistic I still don't personally think someone should be doubly screwed over just because he lost a fight to a Zikonian fleet rather than a Xan or Terr. It seems terribly unbalanced. Comments?

ps. Any who are going to choose the rather obvious road of "OMG, WHINGER" when composing their replies should bear in mind I play Zik. This change would help others a lot more than me.

Yeah, it honestly sucks, not just for you but for every player.

We got maxcap on roidstealing, we got bash limits, but ziks can steal your entire fleet, and the player who loses it gets left with nothing.

I've tried explaining to the PA crew how zik bashing is killing the game and for them to code zik stealing so that it maxcaps stealing ships, but I still havent gotten an clear answer from the PA crew about this..


We all know the good old saying that roids means shit, fleets means everything.

But the game system does not reflect upon this seing as ziks can steal uncapped and I think this needs to be adressed soon.

Sad to see you lose your fleet, cudos to eXiltion for setting up a brilliant fleetcatch. However I dont agree with salvage for stolen ships, because that just gonna smell of abuse in so many ways.

[Wandows]

Tbh, capping stealing isn't the answer either imho. The more caps you put into the game the more boring it will become as there is little to nothing left to actually play for. The bashing problem is there because its so damn effective for Ziks to bash, as they steal for free. Make Zik stealers die you will solve alot of these issues as Ziks won't be able to harvest huge fleets while at the same time keeping their steal ships. And by having those ships die the attacked planet will automatically get salvage from the destroyed stealers, while the Zik value growth rate will slow as they have to rebuild the lost stealers.

This in turn might make Ziks a more strategical race (as it was supposed to be), as its not always good to sacrifice (attacking) steal ships for some random ships from another race that won't help you all that much. While in the current setup it doesn't really matter where you send your stealers as any gain is free and will improve your fleet (and value/score rank) in some way.

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Wandows

Tbh, capping stealing isn't the answer either imho. The more caps you put into the game the more boring it will become as there is little to nothing left to actually play for. The bashing problem is there because its so damn effective for Ziks to bash, as they steal for free. Make Zik stealers die you will solve alot of these issues as Ziks won't be able to harvest huge fleets while at the same time keeping their steal ships. And by having those ships die the attacked planet will automatically get salvage from the destroyed stealers, while the Zik value growth rate will slow as they have to rebuild the lost stealers.

On a level from 1-10, how fun do you rate losing all your ships, and how likely is it that you will continue playing after that? Add to the fact that you are not in a big alliance who will nuture you back to form. The casual players are more likely to stop playing than to pick up the pieces after losing like that.

[gzambo]

salvage for ships stolen needs to be brought in
also the zik should lose some ships when stealing as otherwise they gain too much from ship stealing

[Treveler]

Ziks, in its current state, needs to go.

But then again, no one listens to poor Zatras...

[Jackie]

Bringing in salvage for stolen ships is something I suggested a long time ago too.
I'm (still) definately speaking in favour of that suggestion.

The other suggestion done in this thread, about the zik ship-trading, is bad:

1. Zik already have soo many holes in their fleet mainly because their initiative is so high.
2. Zik ships have really low damage/cost. That would almost automatically mean that if a zik steals a ship he loses value for it.
3. Stealing say 1000 beetle, will not remove the threat of fighters incs (based on this rounds stats), so a zik will get an even suckier fleet after still a small enemy fleet.

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Jackie

Bringing in salvage for stolen ships is something I suggested a long time ago too.
I'm (still) definately speaking in favour of that suggestion.

The other suggestion done in this thread, about the zik ship-trading, is bad:

1. Zik already have soo many holes in their fleet mainly because their initiative is so high.
2. Zik ships have really low damage/cost. That would almost automatically mean that if a zik steals a ship he loses value for it.
3. Stealing say 1000 beetle, will not remove the threat of fighters incs (based on this rounds stats), so a zik will get an even suckier fleet after still a small enemy fleet.

Shipsalvage is bad too, that way u can get an endless farming... planet rebuild ships to then get stolen again from the resources he gets etc.

Maxcap on stealing ships is the only viable option imho.

[LukeyLove]

Hmmm.. not too sure about salvage for ship stealing, could be abused.. i mean its effectively making value from nothing? Where does the salvage come from? Magic?:/
P.S. Badluck Achilles mate! If its any consolation i asked 2 join in that FC (didnt know coords) and they told me they werent doing it ;< obviously knew we were friends and were worried id warn you! Quite a sensible precaution i suppose

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Jackie

Bringing in salvage for stolen ships is something I suggested a long time ago too.
I'm (still) definately speaking in favour of that suggestion.

The other suggestion done in this thread, about the zik ship-trading, is bad:

1. Zik already have soo many holes in their fleet mainly because their initiative is so high.
2. Zik ships have really low damage/cost. That would almost automatically mean that if a zik steals a ship he loses value for it.
3. Stealing say 1000 beetle, will not remove the threat of fighters incs (based on this rounds stats), so a zik will get an even suckier fleet after still a small enemy fleet.

Value top 50:

Zik = 34
Ter = 2
Xan = 4
Cath = 10

Score top 50:

Zik = 34
Ter = 3
Xan = 4
Cath = 9

[Nadar]

You should get salvage for stolen ships, although it'll sound/look weird as salvage is the scrap metal/crystal/eonium you pick up from your destroyed ship

[coffee-]

Nice battle report, btw.

[Ska]

Originally Posted by coffee-

Nice battle report, btw.

*cough*

[coffee-]

Well it is a considerably better looking battle report then the FC on my 250k value of FI.

[Ska]

Originally Posted by coffee-

Well it is a considerably better looking battle report then the FC on my 250k value of FI.

I was implying its your fault he got fced, if you hadnt made it so achilles fc you, then he wouldnt have been fc

[coffee-]

Well, I am sorry Achilles for making you be FC'd

[Wandows]

Originally Posted by Kargool

On a level from 1-10, how fun do you rate losing all your ships, and how likely is it that you will continue playing after that? Add to the fact that you are not in a big alliance who will nuture you back to form. The casual players are more likely to stop playing than to pick up the pieces after losing like that.

I'm sorry, but if you can't stand losing ships in a wargame you shouldn't bother to play at all. In the past, when planetarion peaked, it was (from where i was standing as a middle class planet) highly uncommon to come out of a battle without losses. As such roids hardly ever were free, just as it was at my own planet (unless some huge planet attacked, but that didn't happen that much).

Though i agree that losing your fleet in itself ain't fun, i'm not in favour off any of the current bash limits that are in place, nor would i be in favour of the proposed limitations on capping ships.

Personally i would enjoy a game without bashlimit better than what currently exists. Instead i'd rather see a decrease in the maxcap when attacking smaller valued planets than urself. Meaning that any planets with more value than urself will gain you maxcap, and say any planets below 10% of ur value aswell. But from that point on (90% of ur value and lower) your maxcap will decrease untill its 0% (at around 50 - 40% ur value), which effectively makes such attacks pointless unless its a direct opponent (fc for hitting/whatever). The same could be done with Zikonian stealers, though i still want to see those die when stealing instead of magically creating salvage out of nothing. It could even go as far as giving smaller planets (a bit) more salvage when they are being bashed by far larger planets (value wise, as score has got nothing to do with bashing).

This will make the game more open, as a planet can be attacked by anyone, while at the same time dealing with bashing as its simply pointless to do so. And i believe such a system would be far more effective than the current bashlimits, as with those i can still be easily profitable to attack around 40% ur value for max gains in roids. Let the problem solve itself instead of putting these strange hard limits in the game.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Uh-oh Wandows, its Soveh again to shoot you down .

Originally Posted by Wandows

Personally i would enjoy a game without bashlimit better than what currently exists. Instead i'd rather see a decrease in the maxcap when attacking smaller valued planets than urself.

This has been tried in the past, where roidcapping was based on comparable fleet scores between the attacking fleet(s) and the home defending fleet. What it resulted in was top players bashing the middle and small players, along with the middle and small players bashing the small players. At the end of the day, it merely added the misery to the small player's existance, whose only recourse was to hide amongst the thousands of other small planets. This clearly is no longer an option. Further, those top players would also send a massive escort fleet along with a pod fleet, such that if the defender chose to stand and fight, they died, and if they chose to flee, they lost their full cap of roids for free (the massive value escort fleet being recalled, obviously). And roids were harder to come by then than they are now (with exception to escort/pod fleeting a tiny n00b somewhere). Indeed, this doesnt go anywhere to resolve the situation regarding Ziks at all - Ziks are more interested in grabbing fleet rather than roids, so making any reduction in cap the discouragement for attacking small players isnt going to help one iota.

I dont think that removing the bash limits is the way to go. However, i do agree with you such that i think that the game should restrict the actions of players to the smallest degree possible whilst still making it enjoyable for the most number of people.

Elsewhere i was inclined to have a negative XP system (a "soft" bash limit) where you would loose score if you attacked someone about half your size, but you could actually still launch if you desired to do so - the "hard" bash limit being reduced to 25% (for example). This i reckon might be a better way forward, but this is quite definately off topic.

The same could be done with Zikonian stealers, though i still want to see those die when stealing instead of magically creating salvage out of nothing.

You're right again insofar as saying that creating salvage from nothing isnt really a very good idea - though it does help compensate broken planets, i think that there is too much scope for abuse with such a system. I still dont see what is wrong with the "War Loans" idea i made up about 5 years ago - i can go look for it if you want.

[Wandows]

Ow Soveh.. sorry, you misread it. I know of that attempt and how it failed, hence putting the calculation based on actual planet values instead of fleet values involved would solve the problem, as cap will decrease regardless of the fleetvalue sent by the (large) attacking planet. In that sense escorts and all won't have any affect on the cap.

A note though that this would have to be calced per attacking planet i suppose if more than 1 attacker is present. Meaning that if there are 2 attackers of equal size, they'd both take 50% of the normal maxcap, and both their parts of that cap would be lowered according to their relative value compared to the target planet (hence a small planet attacking with a big planet would still take the max of his part of the gains, while any other roids that can't be capped due to the limit remain at the target planet).

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Wandows

Ow Soveh.. sorry, you misread it. I know of that attempt and how it failed, hence putting the calculation based on actual planet values instead of fleet values involved would solve the problem, as cap will decrease regardless of the fleetvalue sent by the (large) attacking planet. In that sense escorts and all won't have any affect on the cap.

Whoops .

Still, that only stops the whole Escort/Pod fleet thing. Indeed, it doesnt really stop it, it just tends to remove the more prominant incentive.

However, basing cap on the value of the respective planet(s) wont stop the Zik problem of merely ship-farming, rather than attacking for roids. Unless you started having a certain proportion of fleet that could be capped per tick, just like Roids. And i'm not sure if that;s an overly fantastic idea either.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Wandows

Tbh, capping stealing isn't the answer either imho. The more caps you put into the game the more boring it will become as there is little to nothing left to actually play for. The bashing problem is there because its so damn effective for Ziks to bash, as they steal for free. Make Zik stealers die you will solve alot of these issues as Ziks won't be able to harvest huge fleets while at the same time keeping their steal ships. And by having those ships die the attacked planet will automatically get salvage from the destroyed stealers, while the Zik value growth rate will slow as they have to rebuild the lost stealers.

This in turn might make Ziks a more strategical race (as it was supposed to be), as its not always good to sacrifice (attacking) steal ships for some random ships from another race that won't help you all that much. While in the current setup it doesn't really matter where you send your stealers as any gain is free and will improve your fleet (and value/score rank) in some way.

I can't see why anyone posted after this it highlights my sentiments. However, unfortunately I'm not an experienced enough coder to implement Zik ships dying - I'm slowly getting there, but the way it's coded at the moment means it's almost easier to recode half the combat engine, which I'm not up to. I am trying to get it sorted for next round, and I have some combat engine changes planned for then (assuming I can get them to work :P)

Kargool, I'm sure you saw my thread - I'm pretty sure I mentioned you personally - addressing these issues among others sometime around the beginning of this round. It's half way down the PD page (link to it here). We do listen! It just takes a while to get things done sometimes

[Makhil]

Originally Posted by Wandows

Tbh, capping stealing isn't the answer either imho. The more caps you put into the game the more boring it will become as there is little to nothing left to actually play for. The bashing problem is there because its so damn effective for Ziks to bash, as they steal for free. Make Zik stealers die you will solve alot of these issues as Ziks won't be able to harvest huge fleets while at the same time keeping their steal ships. And by having those ships die the attacked planet will automatically get salvage from the destroyed stealers, while the Zik value growth rate will slow as they have to rebuild the lost stealers.

This in turn might make Ziks a more strategical race (as it was supposed to be), as its not always good to sacrifice (attacking) steal ships for some random ships from another race that won't help you all that much. While in the current setup it doesn't really matter where you send your stealers as any gain is free and will improve your fleet (and value/score rank) in some way.

2 thumbs up. That suggestion + negative XP would end the reign of the bashers (at last) without unleashing XP whores again...

[Ultimate Newbie]

The problem with Zik ships dying when stealing is that the threshold is *such* a fine line, that if ships can cap too much before they die then it doesnt really solve the problem, and (more problematically), if the cap is too low then Ziks as a race are utterly buggered, because their fleet takes so many hits during combat, only to self destruct after capping next to bugger all ships back.

Its nice in principle, and i dont disagree with that. I just see so many problems with its implementation as to make me sad.