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Unread 26 May 2006, 01:20   #1
Anonymous Hero
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Changes to alliance scoring system

At the moment an alliances score is merely the sum of all its planets. Alliances can use this system to keep planets out of a tag to keep their score low, then move them back in to increase their score. It's a nice tactic, should it happen though?

I'd like to see some changes to the alliance scoring system, basically so that an alliances score is increased/decreased each tick according to the gain/loss of all its planets.

Example: Player with 1,000,000 score joins an alliance, then gains 100,000 score in a tick from an attack. Under the current system the alliance gets a total of 1,100,000 score. Under a new system the alliance just gets the 100,000 score - the amount the planet gained whilst in the alliance.

Is it a stupid idea, or one with potential?
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Unread 26 May 2006, 01:34   #2
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

I like this idea. It encourages people to try to keep players in tag, and it also disencourages late round poaching.
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Unread 26 May 2006, 02:03   #3
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

If you leave an alliance, does the score that you accumulate within that alliance transfer to the new alliance? If so, that would largely defeat the purpose. If you leave an alliance, does the score that you gained within the alliance dissapear? If you leave an alliance, does the score that you gained within the alliance stay with the alliance?

If its the latter, which i am assuming it to be as magical score loss tends not to be a fantastic thing, then;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I like this idea. It encourages people to try to keep players in tag, and it also disencourages late round poaching.
Wouldnt such a system mean that the value of all players in an alliance falls as time progresses, as the ability of a member to add to the alliance total diminishes, thus making them less valueable. Less value means that they can be exchanged more cheaply, right?
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Unread 26 May 2006, 03:19   #4
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

The idea has been discussed a bit in this thread (page 9).

The alliance would still keep the score they've gained whilst the planet was in their alliance. It's a measurement of what the alliance has gained/lost with all of its players wearing the tag.

As for poaching, it decreases the value of poaching for quick gain. You can't alter an alliances score by 5 million just by getting a large player to join an alliance a few days/weeks before the end of the game. You can still poach for a higher score gain (the number 1 planet would give 38k score each tick at the moment), but you'd have to do it earlier in the game instead of doing it later on. This would give the old alliance of the player lots of time to organise attacks against the planet!
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Unread 26 May 2006, 03:33   #5
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
If you leave an alliance, does the score that you accumulate within that alliance transfer to the new alliance? If so, that would largely defeat the purpose. If you leave an alliance, does the score that you gained within the alliance dissapear? If you leave an alliance, does the score that you gained within the alliance stay with the alliance?

If its the latter, which i am assuming it to be as magical score loss tends not to be a fantastic thing, then;



Wouldnt such a system mean that the value of all players in an alliance falls as time progresses, as the ability of a member to add to the alliance total diminishes, thus making them less valueable. Less value means that they can be exchanged more cheaply, right?
I like the suggestion but it needs to be worked on abit, atm its 0429 in the morning here so prolly needs to sleep on it. My biggest issue atm is what happens when you are getting roided. Does the alliance lose your score, and how much score can they lose?
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Unread 26 May 2006, 08:03   #6
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

I like this idea, and its one that would probably work.

However, why do we need it? It seems that every round we look at why the current #1 is at #1, and try to abolish that tactic from the round.

This is going to sound very biased towards my own alliance now, but admittedly in r15 the whole support planet thing was necessary, along with an adjustment to xp (I don't think xp as it is has been 'solved'). Now we're trying to stop people being out of tag.

There is already the disadvantage of not being able to cover eta 7 calls at all, or DE with only certain ships, etc.
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Unread 26 May 2006, 08:57   #7
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

I think the implications are good. It's nice to encourage alliances to take in players because they want the individuals in their community, rather than (to whatever degree) wanting their current score. A better system than the one we have now would nullify that influence.
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Unread 26 May 2006, 10:02   #8
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

As I already replied on the other thread, the main reason not to implement this is because of abuse. You can make a 20M member leave, join another alliance, bash him down, and make that other ally lose all the score.

You could fix that by making the other ally only lose the score he gained while being in that ally. But where does the other score loss go? Simply nowhere?
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Unread 26 May 2006, 11:16   #9
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

This is actually an idea a few of us in F-Crew have brought up a few times. At the time its for the benifit it gives the smaller alliances but it does help reduce the current situations effect as well.

Now I think its common sense that an alliances score if only made up of score when in an alliance can also only lose the score that members made in the alliance. I certainly dont see any reason that it matters if theres a bunch of score loss that isnt accounted for in the alliances score like XelNaga does. The scores being lost by your planet, your planets always your planet so should take all score loss. Your alliance isnt always your alliance and you can jump ship and your alliances score loss shouldnt exceed what you have earnt while in that alliance.

In fact id go as far as saying that galaxies should have the same scoring system applied. That way we have a system where galaxies and alliances arent penilised twice when losing a member as they keep score, other alliances/galaxies dont gain twice by gaining a new member and his score and hopefully it will then cut down the 'score based poaching' in alliances and the 'score based exiling' in galaxies as all new members are worth ZERO score.
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Unread 26 May 2006, 11:27   #10
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Additionally theres a few things id probally add.

Upon quitting an alliance/galaxy the alliane/galaxy will continue gaining score from you until
1) Any attacks your on when you quit are complete
2) Any defence your on awhen you quit re complete
3) any attack on you when you quit are complete
4) any ships in production when you quit are built

Planets added to an alliance/galaxy dont start gaining alliance/galaxy score until the following things are true
1) any attacks they are taking part in upon being accepted are complete
2) any defence they are taking part when accepted are complete
3) Any attacks on them when you are accepted are complete
4) any ships in production when you are accepted are complete

This would remove some of the areas of abuse imho
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Unread 26 May 2006, 11:56   #11
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

How are we to handle the case if someone roids you? What effect will it have on the alliance?
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Unread 26 May 2006, 12:26   #12
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
How are we to handle the case if someone roids you? What effect will it have on the alliance?
What in between alliances do you mean?

If so you could just let it slide and have it as soley a personal loss for the person rather than a personal loss and a loss for your new alliance.

I do suppose if you really did want to hit the alliance with a penalty for someone the take who losses score/value/roids in the 72 tick wait period you could maybe find some way of impossing working out a score loss from that which the alliance would take, or maybe an amount of score that the member needs to gain before they start gaining alliance score but im not sure its needed really
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Unread 26 May 2006, 13:09   #13
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Interesting idea - but lets face it, everyone knew 1up was going to do this.
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Unread 26 May 2006, 13:10   #14
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNaga
As I already replied on the other thread, the main reason not to implement this is because of abuse. You can make a 20M member leave, join another alliance, bash him down, and make that other ally lose all the score.

You could fix that by making the other ally only lose the score he gained while being in that ally. But where does the other score loss go? Simply nowhere?
Two options for this one.

First one would be to add a minimum score for a planet in an alliance. If a a player joins at 1,000,000, gets bashed down to 500,000 - the alliance would lose no score. However the alliance should gain no score until the planet gets past 1,000,000 again. A planet could leave and rejoin the alliance to get around this though, however you could possibly add an "alliance leaving score" to a planet, so if the planet joins any alliance and the leaving score is higher then that is used as their minimum score.

The second opinion is tough luck, your alliance loses score. That would be the new risk of taking a large player you don't trust, or not defending that planet.
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Unread 26 May 2006, 13:11   #15
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Wakey's suggestions fix all possible abuse I could see with this system...
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Unread 27 May 2006, 15:58   #16
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

well summit needs to be done

we just lost our biggest player to a top 5 allie , the planet in question has been with us from the start of the rd ,attacking with us and weve worked dam hard defending his incomming , just over a week remaining of the rd what happens..................he leaves,all our hard work is wasted as we have lost his score and the allaiince he moves to gets the score (ie the credit) this isnt fair on the members,bc or dc's that have helped him this rd
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Unread 27 May 2006, 17:02   #17
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Very good idea. Very damn good idea actually. That way we'd avoid Ely-stunts.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 18:25   #18
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOL
well summit needs to be done

we just lost our biggest player to a top 5 allie , the planet in question has been with us from the start of the rd ,attacking with us and weve worked dam hard defending his incomming , just over a week remaining of the rd what happens..................he leaves,all our hard work is wasted as we have lost his score and the allaiince he moves to gets the score (ie the credit) this isnt fair on the members,bc or dc's that have helped him this rd
Presumably that wouldn't bother you if there was no alliance scoring system ;-)
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Unread 27 May 2006, 18:36   #19
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Presumably that wouldn't bother you if there was no alliance scoring system ;-)
lol well with no score thier how can it?
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Unread 27 May 2006, 19:33   #20
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOL
well summit needs to be done

we just lost our biggest player to a top 5 allie , the planet in question has been with us from the start of the rd ,attacking with us and weve worked dam hard defending his incomming , just over a week remaining of the rd what happens..................he leaves,all our hard work is wasted as we have lost his score and the allaiince he moves to gets the score (ie the credit) this isnt fair on the members,bc or dc's that have helped him this rd

just roid him to death!!

I don't like this idea, the game must be simple and enjoyable, you are just trying to get things way too confused, who will gain what, and who will loose what if something happens. Planets out of tag have a lot of disadvantages about defence, you all knew 1up was doing it, but yet, you did nothing, changing the game to worst will not solve this situation, next time, try to do something before its too late, and you'll have no problem.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 11:59   #21
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murador
just roid him to death!!

I don't like this idea, the game must be simple and enjoyable, you are just trying to get things way too confused, who will gain what, and who will loose what if something happens. Planets out of tag have a lot of disadvantages about defence, you all knew 1up was doing it, but yet, you did nothing, changing the game to worst will not solve this situation, next time, try to do something before its too late, and you'll have no problem.
well ya 1up ya bound to say this casue it would have stopped ya winning this rd as alot of ya members wasnt tagged till late,but lets be honest its a good system means the effort ya allie isnt wasted,casue a member leaves (which is normally outta the control of anyones hand expect the member in question)

whats so difficult to understand the allie gets and keeps the score that a member had while in the allie,means if members leaves the allie say a day b4 the end of the rd the allie keeps the score that was thier while the member was part of the allie

ggezzzz
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Unread 28 May 2006, 20:24   #22
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOL
well ya 1up ya bound to say this casue it would have stopped ya winning this rd as alot of ya members wasnt tagged till late,but lets be honest its a good system means the effort ya allie isnt wasted,casue a member leaves (which is normally outta the control of anyones hand expect the member in question)

whats so difficult to understand the allie gets and keeps the score that a member had while in the allie,means if members leaves the allie say a day b4 the end of the rd the allie keeps the score that was thier while the member was part of the allie

ggezzzz

First of all, its 2 or 3 rounds that I'm not playing, so I'm not 1up, at least at the moment.

Ok, a simple question:

Planet A leaves alliance X, planet A had 1.000.000 score, nice, alliance X keeps that score. After 3 days planet A joins alliance Y, now planet A is 1.100.000 score, alliance Y doesn't gain anything leeting planet A joining in the beginin, ok, after 3 days, planet A got +100.000 score, nice, alliance Y finally got something from planet A. The next day, planet B attacks planet A, a fleetcatch to be honest, alliance Y doen't manage to defend planet A, so planet A thats was 1.200.000 score, looses 600.000 value, conseuently also score. Since alliance Y had only 100.000 gain in score since planet A joined, will it loose only 100.000 ? will it loose 600.000 ? if it looses only 100.000, the remaining 500.000 will be deducted from where ? Alliance X ? 100.000 he got when we has in no alliance, so alliance X only looses 400.000 ? if nobody looses this 500.000, it's easy, every time a member from an alliance is fleetcatched, just kick him out of tag, so you won't loose the score, and in some tick you add him again.

You ppl that are HC must take care of your members, it's FAIR that you loose their score when he leves, coz you HCs and alliances ALONE will get him NO score, NO value, hi HE the owner of the planet doesn't do anything, it will be his planet that will gain nothing, and there's NOTHING that you can do, instead of kicking him out to hell. Much before the alliance, everyone is responsable for his/her own planet, and beeing in alliance A or B will get me no extra value / score than what I DO MYSELF to get it. So it's your duty to take good care of your member, fo not letting him / her leaving you. It's not only the planet who needs an alliance, also the alliance needs planets.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 20:34   #23
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

I've always completely disagreed with alliances being ranked. It detracts so heavily from the concept of PA being a war game. Alliances should be a pure expression of raw military power. As such I'm not totally opposed to the alliance ranking system being total value minus value from roids, but I'd rather see the entire ranking system totally abolished. (Note that this doesn't necessarily include removing the alliance limits or the in-alliance bonuses.)
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Unread 28 May 2006, 20:59   #24
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murador

You ppl that are HC must take care of your members, it's FAIR that you loose their score when he leves, coz you HCs and alliances ALONE will get him NO score, NO value, hi HE the owner of the planet doesn't do anything, it will be his planet that will gain nothing, and there's NOTHING that you can do, instead of kicking him out to hell. Much before the alliance, everyone is responsable for his/her own planet, and beeing in alliance A or B will get me no extra value / score than what I DO MYSELF to get it. So it's your duty to take good care of your member, fo not letting him / her leaving you. It's not only the planet who needs an alliance, also the alliance needs planets.
well ye obviously the owner of the planet launches thier fleet etc so ye they are responsible for their PLANET , but its the ALLIANCE that defends them and normally arranges the attacks,seeing as thats the 2 most important part of the game then why should the alliance lose out on the score they have helped him get? or why should another allie get all his score when they have done nothing to contribrute to the players score?
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Unread 28 May 2006, 21:05   #25
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

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Originally Posted by Murador
First of all, its 2 or 3 rounds that I'm not playing, so I'm not 1up, at least at the moment.

Ok, a simple question:

Planet A leaves alliance X, planet A had 1.000.000 score, nice, alliance X keeps that score. After 3 days planet A joins alliance Y, now planet A is 1.100.000 score, alliance Y doesn't gain anything leeting planet A joining in the beginin, ok, after 3 days, planet A got +100.000 score, nice, alliance Y finally got something from planet A. The next day, planet B attacks planet A, a fleetcatch to be honest, alliance Y doen't manage to defend planet A, so planet A thats was 1.200.000 score, looses 600.000 value, conseuently also score. Since alliance Y had only 100.000 gain in score since planet A joined, will it loose only 100.000 ? will it loose 600.000 ? if it looses only 100.000, the remaining 500.000 will be deducted from where ? Alliance X ? 100.000 he got when we has in no alliance, so alliance X only looses 400.000 ? if nobody looses this 500.000, it's easy, every time a member from an alliance is fleetcatched, just kick him out of tag, so you won't loose the score, and in some tick you add him again.
sorry missed this bit , the allie he moved to loses the score,whats the difference to what it s now , if a planet joins ya allaince an gets fleet caught you lose the score anyway,and you really think ppl will keep kicking and readding ppl outta the tag? i very much doubt they will keep doing it over nd over again but if they did then make it longer for them to rejoin the allie they just left
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Unread 28 May 2006, 21:14   #26
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

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Originally Posted by SOL
well ye obviously the owner of the planet launches thier fleet etc so ye they are responsible for their PLANET , but its the ALLIANCE that defends them and normally arranges the attacks,seeing as thats the 2 most important part of the game then why should the alliance lose out on the score they have helped him get? or why should another allie get all his score when they have done nothing to contribrute to the players score?
SOL, while the alliance is defending him, he is defending the alliance, so it's a fair trade

while the alliance arrange the attacks, he accepts to only or mainly (depends of the alliance) attack with the alliance, and more, he accepts not to target friendlies and a lot of other restrictions and rules, so it's much more then fair trade.

You must also remember that recruiting is also part of the game, if you don't know how to recruit good and loyal players, that will not leave you alone, it's your fault, not the game's fault

In the end, it's me alone in the universe, alliance isn't nothing mere than a bunch of players that will do things together, and nothing is more fair that their score are just added together.

And, if a member left you behind you can also think that he wasn't happy with you, so it's your falt for beeing a bad HC, not his.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 21:18   #27
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

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Originally Posted by SOL
sorry missed this bit , the allie he moved to loses the score,whats the difference to what it s now , if a planet joins ya allaince an gets fleet caught you lose the score anyway,and you really think ppl will keep kicking and readding ppl outta the tag? i very much doubt they will keep doing it over nd over again but if they did then make it longer for them to rejoin the allie they just left
thats unfair, the new ally have much more to loose than to gain, you need just to be better to you member and they wont leave, after it's your fault if they left you behind, its coz you werent good enough
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Unread 28 May 2006, 21:19   #28
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

right but its still the allaince arranging where he should send his fleet,and they still set the attack up, were on about allainces here not anything to do with the planet , the planet dont lose score over this so why do you keep bringing a planet into it?

would you rather prefeer a allie to keep his score when they have worked to help him , or a allie that has doing nothing to help him get t that score?
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Unread 28 May 2006, 21:23   #29
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

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Originally Posted by Murador
thats unfair, the new ally have much more to loose than to gain, you need just to be better to you member and they wont leave, after it's your fault if they left you behind, its coz you werent good enough
well being not good enough is 1 reason, but it dont mean a allie dont work hard in trying , and why is it unfair? they know the crack when they recruit him, if you recruit inactive members then its your fault , if you reruit a good player they are growing all the time apart from the odd attacks against them
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Unread 28 May 2006, 21:41   #30
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

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Originally Posted by SOL
right but its still the allaince arranging where he should send his fleet,and they still set the attack up, were on about allainces here not anything to do with the planet , the planet dont lose score over this so why do you keep bringing a planet into it?

would you rather prefeer a allie to keep his score when they have worked to help him , or a allie that has doing nothing to help him get t that score?
well, you really don't seems or want to understand, do you?

since the alliace score are nothing else than the score of the planets together, the planet has EVERYTHING to do with the alliance, and that's why I keep bring planet on this discussion. ans as aI said before, alliance soesn't do anything, they don't send my fleets nowhere, no HC or anything will ever log in my account, all the alliace does is to set an attack, who will decide if he will join or not is the planet, he is the OWNER of that planet, and noone can ever make he do anything that he doesn't want, all that the alliance do is to set an attack, and then the player agrees to join that atack, that that attack is fair and ok, so he joings, in the ned, it's all the player's decision.

Answering your last question, noone, I want my score to be added with the score of the alliance I want to be part of.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 21:44   #31
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

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Originally Posted by SOL
well being not good enough is 1 reason, but it dont mean a allie dont work hard in trying , and why is it unfair? they know the crack when they recruit him, if you recruit inactive members then its your fault , if you reruit a good player they are growing all the time apart from the odd attacks against them
this is nothing mere than negative score, and I dont think this can ever happen. What you are trying to do is inventing a imaginary score, one that has nothing to do with the real game, you can creat powerfull alliances that are just crap and let good alliance with crap score with the negative score, making one alliance be in the top 10, when it has an army to be considered the top one.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 21:49   #32
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

im gonna agree to disagree with ya on this
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Unread 28 May 2006, 21:56   #33
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

thats why we are discussing, everyone has his/her own opnion, all we are doing is to defend our own opnion, but, one opnion alone its nothing, so it woul be nice of you to say why you don't agree, and say your point of view, I may be wrong, ofc, but noone will know if you don't say why, just shout aloud an opnion is easy, but givint it support and maintening it solid is difficult.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 21:57   #34
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

i think were taking over the thread , and think more peoples views are needed so go ahead.............
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Unread 28 May 2006, 22:48   #35
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murador
this is nothing mere than negative score, and I dont think this can ever happen. What you are trying to do is inventing a imaginary score, one that has nothing to do with the real game, you can creat powerfull alliances that are just crap and let good alliance with crap score with the negative score, making one alliance be in the top 10, when it has an army to be considered the top one.
I am newish to the game so feel free to shoot me down in flames but i seek 1 thing from my alliance, if i get attacked and it gets reported then i seek assistance, if that is not enough to stave off my attacker then fair enough my alliance tried, if it is enough tally ho! thing is some people always seek elitism, to those who do and have acieved good luck, all i ask is do unto me as i would you, i will defend the ally i am in if i can always and expect the same ( i am having a poor round but it is not due to my ally as i have monopolised fleets regularly)
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Unread 29 May 2006, 00:03   #36
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Re: Changes to alliance scoring system

Please don't say the 'I am newish to the game so feel free to shoot me down in flames' stuff, it's like killing puppies

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I've always completely disagreed with alliances being ranked. It detracts so heavily from the concept of PA being a war game. Alliances should be a pure expression of raw military power. As such I'm not totally opposed to the alliance ranking system being total value minus value from roids, but I'd rather see the entire ranking system totally abolished. (Note that this doesn't necessarily include removing the alliance limits or the in-alliance bonuses.)
Well put. That halfway-house approach has some merit too
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