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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 17:09   #1
All Systems Go
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Poverty

There area few kinds of poverty but the two most common would be relative and absolute. Now, it is taken as granted that relative poverty cannot be eradicated within a capitalist society though it can be reduced (although even some are opposed to that).

What I am therefore interested in is absolute poverty. Can it be abolished in the capitalist system? If there was a concerted effort could absolute poverty (people living on less than $1 a day) be wiped out?
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 17:16   #2
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Exclamation Re: Poverty

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
There area few kinds of poverty but the two most common would be relative and absolute.
The most common is intellectual.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 17:17   #3
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Re: Poverty

Is that is relative or absolute terms?
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 17:19   #4
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Exclamation Re: Poverty

Absolute. You either know stuff or you are Jade Goody.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 18:44   #5
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Re: Poverty

Give them all another dollar.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 20:32   #6
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Re: Poverty

Surely $1 being regarded as poverty is also relative...
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 21:42   #7
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Re: Poverty

Maybe it was wortha lot in 1982 Grandpa, get with the times.
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Unread 6 Feb 2008, 22:13   #8
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Re: Poverty

Absolute poverty is still a relative term if you're going to go on about 'less than $1 a day', and relative poverty is an equally arbitrarily defined state.

Edit:
If you're going to talk about relative poverty then it's a moving set of goal-posts whose position relates entirely to what you call 'relatively poor', which is itself a definition based upon what's cool/socially accepted at the time. No matter what you try, that measure's going to be arbitrary and therefore the easiest way of abolishing relative poverty is to redefine relative poverty. Job done.

Absolute poverty is pretty stupid. You're still at the same situation as before in that 'poor' is a relative adjective, so talking about 'absolute poverty' is not so far removed from talking about 'absolute chocolateiness'. The best you'll do is decide that 'absolute poverty' as a phrase is meaningless, redefine the phrase with some arbitrary meaning such as 'an economic inability to fulfil ones basic needs', argue about what one's basic needs really are and then go to bed drunk and angrier than you did when you started.
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Last edited by pablissimo; 6 Feb 2008 at 22:37.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 00:44   #9
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Re: Poverty

There are some things which would certainly be accepted as being indicators of poverty, I would think.

Not having sufficient means to obtain enough nourishment to stave off starvation and death?

Not having sufficient means to obtain enough clothing or shelter to prevent death from exposure?

Or, for Yahwe, not having access to a suitable quality of bubbly.
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Unread 7 Feb 2008, 14:18   #10
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Re: Poverty

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
There are some things which would certainly be accepted as being indicators of poverty, I would think.

Not having sufficient means ...
Not having sufficient means ...
That's interesting. Something i thought of just then having read that post, is that poverty could be described as the denial of access. As its easy to talk about poverty in an economic sense (the lack of ability to fulfil needs [as opposed to wants]), poverty as denial of access includes things such as pursuit of knowledge, and other lofty ideals to suit this elitist commentariat.
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Unread 15 Feb 2008, 19:11   #11
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Re: Poverty

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
Absolute poverty is still a relative term if you're going to go on about 'less than $1 a day', and relative poverty is an equally arbitrarily defined state.

Edit:
If you're going to talk about relative poverty then it's a moving set of goal-posts whose position relates entirely to what you call 'relatively poor', which is itself a definition based upon what's cool/socially accepted at the time. No matter what you try, that measure's going to be arbitrary and therefore the easiest way of abolishing relative poverty is to redefine relative poverty. Job done.

Absolute poverty is pretty stupid. You're still at the same situation as before in that 'poor' is a relative adjective, so talking about 'absolute poverty' is not so far removed from talking about 'absolute chocolateiness'. The best you'll do is decide that 'absolute poverty' as a phrase is meaningless, redefine the phrase with some arbitrary meaning such as 'an economic inability to fulfil ones basic needs', argue about what one's basic needs really are and then go to bed drunk and angrier than you did when you started.
Abolsute poverty can be defined in the way DDA as already mentioned. There is also the fact that by considering purchasing power of a dollar* you can generate more meaningful statistics, if that is not an oxymoron.

So if we agree that there are certain physical objects that human beings need to survive (i.e. housing, food etc) then surely there are concrete areas to focus on and that applied resources could move everybody up to a higher level of living. True, this would then be the lowest level of poverty, but as long as we keep focused then it should be seen as progress.

Relative poverty is another matter and this can be reduced but never abolished within the capitalist system. Although if we were to consider such an issue then we would have to consider the impact of globalisation.

The extent of globalisation is largely a myth and is a process that began at least before WW1, to put it into some kind of meangingful context. To governments, it makes more sense to sterss the inevitability of globalisation and the resulting cuts in workers rights as well as the privitisation of the welfare state. Margaret Thatcher was correct when she said 'There is no alternative', although she should have added that the reason for this was because she was unwilling to provide another one. This is a process that continues to this very day, ironically served to the public as proving' greater choice'.

Despite the scepticism of relative poverty as not being able to afford the latest Nikes or not having Sky TV, there are more serious issues such as the people living in relative poverty tend to live several years less than those who do not. This is not a situation which should be disregarded as ingratitude to our super-productive overlords.



*enough to rent Texan's mother and still have change for 99 penny sweets
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Unread 15 Feb 2008, 19:46   #12
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Re: Poverty

Statistics are dangerous like that; it doesn't address the connection between poverty and bad health, or indeed prove if there is one.
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Unread 16 Feb 2008, 15:21   #13
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Re: Poverty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Statistics are dangerous like that; it doesn't address the connection between poverty and bad health, or indeed prove if there is one.
We can ignore the circumstantial evidence that people with vastly different incomes tend to live vastly different lives and instead focus on the welfare system where it has been shown that the middle class are better users of services such as the NHS.

From this it would not be difficult to come to the conclusion that wealth inequality plays a role in the reduction of life expectancy.
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