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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 18:19   #1
AdmV0rl0n
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Nasty suggestion

Tech tree entry, leading to ship changes.

Tech tree allows two paths.

1st Path Defense technology.

2nd Path Attack technology.

Players could only take one path.
The paths could add a layer to your ships.

Path 1 - Each research adds +1 armour to all your vessels (So if there were 20 research levels, you could add 20 points to the armour of your vessels)
ETA is increased by ETA + 1 outside GAL.
ETA is decreased by ETA - 1 in Gal (and cluster?)
Firepower is reduced by -1 per additional armour layer.

Path 2 - Each research adds + 1 firepower to all your vessels. (So if there were 20 research levels, you could add 20 points to the of firepower to your vessels)
ETA is increased by + 1 in Gal
ETA is decreased by -1 in Universe
Armour is depleted by -1 for each additional firepower added.

Right now, most research trees offer 5-6 options, so if that remained, players might add 6 points of armour (at the cost of some firepower), or 6 points of firepower at the cost of armour) and either branch would change the player ships slightly.

This would mean each race would in fact kind of be possibly 3 targets, all different. Attacks would have new tricky variables not merely calc'ed, and players would go neutral, attacking or defensive.

When suggesting this, I am aware the current ship combat engine might not support this theory, so YMMV

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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 18:38   #2
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
Path 1 - Each research adds +1 armour to all your vessels (So if there were 20 research levels, you could add 20 points to the armour of your vessels)
I guess you mean some sort of percentage
+20 armor to a dragon or +20 armor to a banshee is quite different
Quote:
ETA is increased by ETA + 1 outside GAL.
what about ally def?
Quote:
Firepower is reduced by -1 per additional armour layer.
what about zero loss def ships? Why should i care about the armor of scorpions when I'm defending against a Ter Bs fleet? So the "attack path" might be more useful for defense than the "defense path"
Quote:
Right now, most research trees offer 5-6 options, so if that remained, players might add 6 points of armour (at the cost of some firepower), or 6 points of firepower at the cost of armour) and either branch would change the player ships slightly.

This would mean each race would in fact kind of be possibly 3 targets, all different. Attacks would have new tricky variables not merely calc'ed, and players would go neutral, attacking or defensive.
Well stessed DCs will hate that.

Additionally the "attack path" with more firepower and less armor will be a bigger advantage for ships with an early init.
eg: Cath do usually try to freeze everything which could hurt them so they don't care about their armor.
This makes the "defense path" very inefficient for races with low init ships
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 21:10   #3
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedda0815
I guess you mean some sort of percentage
+20 armor to a dragon or +20 armor to a banshee is quite different what about ally def? what about zero loss def ships? Why should i care about the armor of scorpions when I'm defending against a Ter Bs fleet? So the "attack path" might be more useful for defense than the "defense path" Well stessed DCs will hate that.
No, I did mean single points, not percentages. So, assuming the research tree continues to only have 5-6 branches (example) you are talking +6 armour, or + 6 firepower. Not huge differences, but subtle enough it would affect some battles.

Also, please remember, it would be a player choice. Alliances for example could request their players stay Neutral. Some players might choose one path or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedda0815
Additionally the "attack path" with more firepower and less armor will be a bigger advantage for ships with an early init.
eg: Cath do usually try to freeze everything which could hurt them so they don't care about their armor.
This makes the "defense path" very inefficient for races with low init ships
Again, its there as an option. If you are in a gal with never ending incs, perhaps you;d agree with those there to switch to def research. The - 1ETA in gal might be worth it, but there is that out of gal penalty.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 21:13   #4
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Too complicated, I dont really see the big point in this. Tech research should be as easy as possible.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 21:51   #5
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Re: Nasty suggestion

with all these ship changing ideas have DC's done something to you nasty in a past life?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 22:27   #6
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Too complicated, I dont really see the big point in this. Tech research should be as easy as possible.
A tech research path that only works one way and offers 5-6 items is more complicated than other things?

Er....
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 22:29   #7
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
with all these ship changing ideas have DC's done something to you nasty in a past life?
All Alliances could instruct all members to pick attack tree. These vessels can still be used in def you know

*Sigh*
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 22:43   #8
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
No, I did mean single points, not percentages. So, assuming the research tree continues to only have 5-6 branches (example) you are talking +6 armour, or + 6 firepower. Not huge differences, but subtle enough it would affect some battles.
This isn't true. For a FI +5 or 6 armour is huge, whereas for a BS it's pretty much meaningless. A +5 change to the armour of a fighter, without an increase in the cost of the fighter would have a drastic impact for Xan. I like the idea in principle, but a change based on the ship class might make a lot more sense. So a research tree for FI/CO and one for FR/DE, etc.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 23:49   #9
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Re: Nasty suggestion

I can't for the life of me figure why anyone would go the "defence" route. I'll trade +1 eta ingal for -1 eta in universe anytime. And when it comes to defending, most of the time it's preferable for your ships to make extra damage, than take extra hits.

Plus, you want to add researches in a game where you have enough researches to complete anyways. I'd much rather reduce the number of researches available.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 05:24   #10
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Though I've personally always found the idea of a degree of customisation rather interesting, I think it's beyond the current combat engine, if not completely beyond this game.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 15:34   #11
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
This isn't true. For a FI +5 or 6 armour is huge, whereas for a BS it's pretty much meaningless. A +5 change to the armour of a fighter, without an increase in the cost of the fighter would have a drastic impact for Xan. I like the idea in principle, but a change based on the ship class might make a lot more sense. So a research tree for FI/CO and one for FR/DE, etc.
Well, this is what I like in #suggestions. Take a base idea, no matter how off the wall and get into wether its a good idea, doable, or needs a few changes. I'd not factored in cost, so you are def right, a +6 hit or armour boost on FI adds massive changes compared to larger vessels.

So, its a research tree that allows this, but its design is by ship class, and perhaps it needs a little more thought. Perhaps the tree would alster something like this. The ETA would be as discussed, but the armour and firepower change. FI/CO get + 1 on either, FR/DE get +2 and BS get +3 or something. Perpahs in truth, each race would get slight differences. TER would get more, XAN less.

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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 15:36   #12
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
I can't for the life of me figure why anyone would go the "defence" route. I'll trade +1 eta ingal for -1 eta in universe anytime. And when it comes to defending, most of the time it's preferable for your ships to make extra damage, than take extra hits.

Plus, you want to add researches in a game where you have enough researches to complete anyways. I'd much rather reduce the number of researches available.
Well, you might be right. But some players might find a valid and useful way of going with def. No one would be forced to do it.

Also, I'm an advocate of a much larger range of researches and options, so that each player really becomes a unique one. Not everyone has the very same. I do accept thats not everyone's cup of tea though..
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 15:38   #13
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Though I've personally always found the idea of a degree of customisation rather interesting, I think it's beyond the current combat engine, if not completely beyond this game.
Well in this regard you might be right. I share the basic idea of having more customising, and I share you thinking it may be beyond the current game. I suggest these things just to shoot the crap, and also, because one day, one of these things might be viewed as fun/interesting.

Even if some of these ideas have PAteam considering making parts of the game modular to perhaps one day fit such ideas in, thats all good.

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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 15:51   #14
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Re: Nasty suggestion

I'm not keen on this idea, simply because making the game more complicated for the sake of making it complicated isn't going to improve it at all.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 15:54   #15
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I'm not keen on this idea, simply because making the game more complicated for the sake of making it complicated isn't going to improve it at all.
Ahh, ok then. We need to get rid of races. Too complicated.
We need to get rid of ships. One type of ship is all we need.
Lets get rid of those constructions. Too complicated.
Lets just do away with research tree's. All too complicated.

Tomkat: Not being funny, but new things in the game don't have to be complicated. Seriously. And they can add to the game overall.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 15:59   #16
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Absolute values don't make sense - you'd have absurdly strong small ships and barely improved capitals.

AstroEmpires does it by each level of 'armour' research adding 5% to armour of all ships, with the cost of the research increasing by a factor of 1.5 for each level (starts cheap and fast, gets expensive and lengthy pretty quickly) which is more reasonable.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 16:11   #17
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
Absolute values don't make sense - you'd have absurdly strong small ships and barely improved capitals.

AstroEmpires does it by each level of 'armour' research adding 5% to armour of all ships, with the cost of the research increasing by a factor of 1.5 for each level (starts cheap and fast, gets expensive and lengthy pretty quickly) which is more reasonable.
No, you and Monroe are right. Its something to contemplate. Your suggestion is pretty good, from where I sit.

What if you amended it on race.

ZIK would get, depending on ship, +1 steal or kill
Cath would get + 1 more freeze or kill
Xan would get a -1 on cost per ships
Ter would get +1 firepower or armour

Or similar...

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Unread 20 Aug 2007, 13:13   #18
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Re: Nasty suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmV0rl0n
ZIK would get, depending on ship, +1 steal or kill
Cath would get + 1 more freeze or kill
Xan would get a -1 on cost per ships
Ter would get +1 firepower or armour
an increase/decrease thing with (scaled) absolute values won't work due to fact that one is progressive and one is degressiv.

let's take the r22 banshee and dragon as example and fix the max research lvl to 5

banshee costs 25 of each resource
each research decreases the cost by 1

first research: banshee will cost 24m 24c and 24 e
banshee effectivity increased by 4,166%

5th research: banshee from 21 resource to 20
effectivity increased by 5%
alltogether we got from 25 to 20 so efficientcy increased by 25%

now let's take the dragon
a normal dragon deals 250 damage
5 research levels should bring the damage to 312,5 (to get 25%)
so an increase by 12,5 per level

1st level from 250 to 262,5
efficientcy increased by 5%
5th level from 300 to 312,5
efficientcy increased by 4,166%

as we see
both get 25% in the end but fir the "increase races" the first levels are more important the the last levels
for the "decrease races" the first levels aren't as important the the last ones are.

So "increase races" can be lazy and the the last ones later on so they can concentrate on other researches first.



Additionally to get "fair" values for all races/ships we would need to multiply all base stats by 1000 (or something similar) or else we will have rounding problems.


There is another problem with your suggestions
the cost decrease changes the ship production the firepower/armor increase changes the final output of your ships.

A production cost research won't change the ships you've already produced.
A stat change research will change the ships you've already produced.

So the "production cost races" will have to do the researches BEFORE they can produce alot of ships.
This will lead that those races will be weak in the beginning

The "stat change races" can build their ships whenever they like and when the research is finished their ships are stronger.

All in all, i can't think of a way this could be balanced.
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