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Unread 1 May 2007, 13:44   #1
-Blue Moon-
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[job]graduate recruitment[rant]

I've recently learnt that graduate recruitment is a pile of crap for many many reasons.

first is that i currently work in HR (after working in finance for 3yrs) and have realised that if you dont know someone, or if you dont have 4yrs experience whilst curing cancer in angola, chances are you're not going to get the job.... oh... by the way... we NEVER check your degrees here... so if you want to lie and say you got a 1st from oxford, we'd never know any differently - and you can get the interview you wanted.

Most annoyingly: The same couple hundred people get the interviews for every job and every company out there, because every company's recruitment teams are looking for the same thing. (i know i shouldnt really be complaining seeing as i've had more than my share of interviews, but it is frustrating and shows that recruiters are just sheep)

I went on an assessment centre for Rolls Royce 2 weeks ago - didn't get it because I was totally unprepared and hungover. I met a lot of nice people there, as there were 30+ of us interviewing for 6 jobs.

Last week I went on two graduate assessment centres... Research Machines was the first one, where I met one of the Rolls Royce grads. "this is strange" I thought, we had a chat again - and they pretty much ruined the job/day for me, because the more I found out the more I didn't want it. I didn't get it but who cares...

The very next day I went to a T-Mobile interview... with 2 of the guys who were just at the RM one with me. When I arrived I met 2 people from the Rolls Royce one.

I knew how the assessment centres worked by then - I was confident, gregarious, knowledgeable and thought I had the job in the bag...

I just got a phone call saying that I had a lack of energy and didn't seem passionate about Finance. PASSIONATE ABOUT FINANCE? What do they want me to do, freaking backflips? They told me that my testing was in the top 1% in both tests and i did their stupid role playing exercises and i listened, i involved others and i made smart and funny contributions -- in short i showed them i was intelligent and had a personality and that i wanted the job. as an HR professional i know there wasnt much more i could have done - i know the core competencies they're looking for and i demonstrated them all.

but to be rejected for a 'lack of energy' FFS... it's finance. you want calm relaxed people in finance, not the office joker. i'm really upset about that job because i really wanted it.

so now i have 3 days before my temporary contract expires, and I will have to take a school leaver's job on £5.50ph... i'm tempted to move back to the USA where i had a good job lined up for me in New Mexico, but that would mean leaving my girlfriend...

Anyways...
I have one final assessment centre Friday. It's for AXA... If anyone has some advice then please let me know, because i feel like nothing is enough for these pricks.

-tux
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Unread 1 May 2007, 14:04   #2
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

I had no problem when I applied for the graduate scheme I'm on (Balfour Beatty, well management training within part of balfours)

PM me and I'll try and get you into one of the assessment centres and tell you everything you need to say to get on it.
You just have to be flecible and happy to move all over the country every 6 months.

I'm just about to finish the scheme and get my first permanent job within the company. The experience I've got has been brilliant and my CV looks amazing.
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Unread 1 May 2007, 14:11   #3
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

Guess what. It's the people who are hard-working and intelligent enough to apply for as many graduate schemes as possible that get through to the assessment centres at them. It shouldn't suprise you that you'll bump into the same people time and time again.

Even worse, if they're better than you then they'll probably be offered each job before you every time. Your saving grace is that once they reject all but one of those, you've got a chance of being offered their rejects - sloppy seconds and all that.

Since you worked in HR, I'm not going to even pretend to have any sympathy for you. You know exactly how it works and what they're looking for - no excuses. Turning up to an assessment centre either hungover or unprepared is essentially suicide, doing both is ****ing retarded.

Assuming that you've got a job is a bad idea as well. Everyone else put the hard yards in as well and made an effort, what's to say that their interviews didn't go as well as yours?


And as a HR employee, I'm sure you'll realise that most HR employees are ****ing retards who would never be able to do the jobs that they interview for, and that includes the highly-prized position of janitor. Their job is to create work for others, and if that means coming up with a bunch of retarded requirements for interviewees then so be it. On behalf of all GD veterans of the recruitment process, go ****ing swivel.
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Unread 1 May 2007, 14:31   #4
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

Yeah I'm not exactly feeling the sympathy for someone who couldn't be arsed preparing themselves for an interview.

Most graduate positions are massively oversubscribed and the companies involved can be as picky as they like; graduate positions aren't the only way you can get a job out of uni as you should well know. So what if you didn't do well in them; neither did 97% of the other people who applied.
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Unread 1 May 2007, 14:50   #5
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

i'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just saying the way things are is crap and it doesn't allow you to shine in any light other than the one that a graduate 'should' shine in.

I didn't want the RM job, and I didn't read up about their company because I was using it as a learning experience. I bet there's hundreds of people out there who have done the same - I also bet there's a hundred grads out there who hate me for admitting that I took a limited slot on an assessment centre for something I didn't want when chances are a lot of them would have killed for it... That's life eh?

That's a funny point you've made about sloppy seconds, and yes it was an inevitable eventuality to bump into a grad here or there... but 5 in 3 centres? wow... that's taking the piss. Here's hoping T-Mobile will call me back tomorrow when that arrogant Canadian guy turns down their job offer....

Only thing I'm ranting about is that graduates have no individuality these days, and we all need to conform to the extremely (often unreasonable) high expectations of recruiters (who through no fault of their own, only want the best for themselves).

Oh, and for the record... I have worked in HR and Finance and the amount of abuse that is hurled our way is ridiculous. As an HR professional you'll do 99 things right in a day, but when you do one thing wrong that's all you remember. Yes our job is to get you a job, to keep you happy, and to make sure you're paid (we do payroll remuneration and benefits here also), but saying that we're not worthy of our job only goes to prove that we're doing something important - because if we weren't there wouldn't be something worthwhile for us to mess up, and you wouldn't have such ill-feeling towards us (as we are enablers, and quite often, admitedly, suck at enabling)...

...the major thing i'm pissed off at is that i didn't get the job because they wanted an energetic accountant..... yeah ok... and I want Arsenal to sign a slow winger...

...such is the way with rants though - chances are i'm just upset and posting to get it out of my system, while raising a semi-decent obscure point about something which nobody (including myself) really cares about... :P

edit: actually, yeah i am and have been asking around internally to see if there's anything else i can do on a straight-to-job-role, cos this grad scheme thing is starting to piss me off...
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Unread 1 May 2007, 14:58   #6
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

Blue Moon has a F-Crew tag in his sig.
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Unread 1 May 2007, 15:10   #7
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

If you're any good you'll shine eventually, I wouldn't be worried about it.
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Unread 1 May 2007, 16:08   #8
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

bright lights are nice, but they don't help you shine.

^ quote from Matisyahu ( I think )

so does this mean in order to shine you need to be somewhere crappy? :-P
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Unread 1 May 2007, 17:45   #9
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

By "energy" they don't necessarily mean you have a little orgasm every time your cash flow forecast comes up roses. They mean that you have a passion to do well in your job and you seem focussed and motivated. Can you really blame them? Accounting is likely to sap any joy you get from your work anyway, so they need people to start off bright-eyed and bushy-tailed so that it takes longer to drain them of all life.
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Unread 1 May 2007, 19:04   #10
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

heh true, maybe they need energetic people so that the new grads can inject their depressing departments with a bit of energy or enthusiasm before the lifeless drole of the financial world kicks in and they realise they're stuck for the rest of their lives in a dull job with dull people, with only recurring 3s to keep them company....
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Unread 1 May 2007, 19:07   #11
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
so does this mean in order to shine you need to be somewhere crappy? :-P
Well, that depends on you. I'm generally an arrogant idiot, but if you're going to a graduate scheme where they generally pick "top candidates" (whatever that means in this particular instance) or a top University for your chosen subject then I doubt you can automatically assume you will be streets ahead of everyone else like you may have been elsewhere.

I've never applied to a high profile graduate scheme because
a) I never thought to
b) It never appealed to me
b) Because I know everyone elses work ethic would be streets ahead of me. Up until recently, I didn't have the ability / will to put in the extra hours (or indeed any hours at all) to study, or do projects or whatever. My attendance in my MSc (which was an obvious example to shine) was something like 4% in the second year. My mediocre result is hardly therefore a sign of some criminal injustice.

If you want to get into a chosen field then it seems pretty easy to me - you start as early as possible by trying to do work placements or voluntary work, researching an inordinate amount about the subject in general and writing papers in your sparetime, forming organisations to discuss/network - that sort of faggotry. I could never be bothered to do that sort of thing which is why it's taken me about five years to get to a positions I could have been about 2 or 3 years ago I guess (not that it matters).

It depends where you go to Uni. When I did my undergrad (QMW, Uni of London) I don't really remember much of the careers events or advice or the like, although they must have had something. At the LSE every two seconds some wankers from Merryl Lynch/Barclays/Morgan Stanley seem to be trying to invite people to attend crappy career seminars and you can't walk through the main thoroughfare without some **** trying to give you a flyer for the "Capitalist Club" (subtitled : 'For the winners of the future' in some cases).

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Unread 1 May 2007, 19:49   #12
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

I applied for 30 graduate schemes, a mix of investment banks, high street banks, insurance companies and the civil service. I had a 2:1 in Economics and an MSc in Economics but no experience beside time spent working in Tescos.

I got rejected by 20 (mostly the investment banks who would barely look at me) and got interviews with 10, of those 10 I got to 6 assessment centres.

The whole process was pretty demoralising, I went from thinking I was going to walk into any job I wanted after university to getting rejected over and over, quite a harsh reality lesson for me especially some of the feedback I got. I'll type up my advice incase anyone is interested.

The key to the whole graduate recruitment process is to be organised early, you should spend the summer before your final year doing an internship and deciding what exactly you want to do, then as soon as September comes around you should make a list of all the skills and experiences you have and these can be related to the core competencies that employers are looking for. This kind of thing can be really simple, like how organising a five a side football team helped build your leadership and teamworking skills, so long as you can justify it use it. Start filling in your forms as soon as they open submissions, some big firms will be running numerous assessment centres throughout the year, the recruiter from PWC told me that he'd already offered employment for September 2007 in September 2006 and places were limited. In addition to applying early, apply to as many places as you can, a lot of the forms are similar and companies are expecting good candidates to apply to all their competitors.

With luck you should get through to the online numerical/verbal (occasionally psycometric) testing stage for each, these aren't very hard, mostly GCSE level maths working out percentages and ratios but the time limits can be tight to create "pressure". Companies aren't looking for you to get 99% which since you work in HR I'm sure you know, being good at maths isn't a guarantee of a good employee. These tests are basically designed to filter out the very worse candidates, so long as you get ~70% you should be fine, if you're tempted to cheat beware they're almost always tested again in person.

Next stage is usually a telephone competency based interview, they ask you a couple of basic questions about the company and their market conditions just to check you know what you're getting into. Then they ask you for specific examples of when you've demonstrated the competencies they're looking for and what skills you have. They focus on things like group work, communication, innovation, organisation and dealing with customers. Try to use different examples for each but you do need to think a lot about these and what sort of skills they allowed you to develop.

Next comes the assessment centre, some are better organised than others but they usually consist of a group exercise, presentation exercise, analysis exercise and a number of interviews, there's also social settings and you are being assessed all day. You can't really practice many of the exercises but knowing the company and market inside out is a must, don't just be prepared to answer questions be prepared to talk about the market and job with assessors in the breaks, always be positive about everything and make sure you're out going and sociable with everyone even really weird people. The problem with assessment centres is you can't really give much advice on how to win them you just need to go to a few to get a feel for what they're looking for. If you go in like Blue Moon, hung over and unprepared expect to fail, can't see why you'd moan after admitting that.

In terms of job passion Tomkat is totally right, with graduate recruitment schemes firms are trying to recruit their next generation of senior management, they invest a lot of time putting you through loads of managerial training they don't want some muppet who is going to quit in a year, they want someone who's going to want to stick around for a long time. One of the HR people at an insurance company was telling me her boss comes down on her like a ton of bricks when a graduate trainee leaves so they need to be sure you really want the role. Furball gave me some great advice, if the passion isn't there then fake it, make out it's the only thing you want to do. If you have other offers feel free to mention them in the interview but say you're holding out for them to give you one, if another company wants you they usually figure you're decent and will want you too.

If you pass the assessment centre you're likely to get another interview, this time with the managers from the business area/office that you're going to work in, it's about an hour and quite informal, I think they mostly use it just to check that you're not a dribbler and get on with the people where you're going to work. Despite what you seem to think they will check or your documents either at this stage or at your offer stage, this goes right down to your GCSEs.

From my assessment centre stage I got four offers, two as an underwriter at top three UK insurance companies, a corporate banking job at a high street bank and as a Government Economist. I'm leading towards accepting one of the insurance jobs but I'm not really sure, underwriting seems like it would be good fun and have good prospects to move into senior management later on in my career but it would mean quite a big pay cut from what I currently make as an Economist for a lobbying group. Lots more thought needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
heh true, maybe they need energetic people so that the new grads can inject their depressing departments with a bit of energy or enthusiasm before the lifeless drole of the financial world kicks in and they realise they're stuck for the rest of their lives in a dull job with dull people, with only recurring 3s to keep them company....
Considering you've worked in finance for three years and you're still applying to finance jobs what exactly does this say about you ?
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Unread 1 May 2007, 20:21   #13
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
but to be rejected for a 'lack of energy' FFS...
if that's a quote you can sue under the Age Discrimination Act
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Unread 1 May 2007, 20:34   #14
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

In completely unrelated news the Job centre have organised a job for me.

I begin tomorrow at 5:45am.

I shall be sorting rubbish for recycling for minimum wage.

the good news is, if I last a week I get a £20 bonus!
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Unread 1 May 2007, 21:00   #15
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
In completely unrelated news the Job centre have organised a job for me.

I begin tomorrow at 5:45am.

I shall be sorting rubbish for recycling for minimum wage.

the good news is, if I last a week I get a £20 bonus!
there is nothing so inherently honest as working.

no one likes it. those who do it (in whatever form) are therefore joined together by it.

I for one am glad for you
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Unread 1 May 2007, 23:52   #16
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

Mwuhahahaha.

I don't know why I put that, thought I would.

So I finished university erm in June. Didn't know what to do, got a job on minimum wage for 6 months, partied like I was in my first year, took naps at work, played cricket, watched youtube, had wanks in the toilets. Basically I lived life.

Then in february I decided to do a course in Journalism.

Every other Friday I work at a paper (just experience) I have worked at the Birmingham Mail, Lichfield Mercury, Sutton Coldfield Observer and been the tea boy at BRMB (local radio station). It's all just work experience and mainly typing up menial shit and answering the phone. I don't mind though. As that's the area I want to go into.

Every Saturday I am at a football match, in the pressbox. This Saturday I am at Villa Park, Sunday I am at the Hawthorns.

I'm not boasting, the work load is heavy. Shorthand is a new language, it's only been 10 weeks since I started but in that time I have taken three exams, and written numerous articles.

But come the end of my course if I don't have a job I will be stuck. Very stuck.

My course finishes circa June/July time.

I have managed to secure a job, with a good wage (very good wage imo) and decent prospects for when I finish my course. Sure I will start the job if I don't have a job in the media, but it isn't the job I want.

I want to work as a journalist. I enjoy it. It's challenging, the pay may be crap, but by eck are the perks good.

This Friday I have an interview at Vogue, it should be fun!
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Unread 2 May 2007, 00:00   #17
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

To be honest I can see you as a cover girl, Kate Moss is looking a bit old these days anyway.
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Unread 2 May 2007, 00:06   #18
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

That's what I thought as well!

I had a informal interview with them close to two weeks ago, and it went really well.

They asked me about size zero and my answer was top draw. So even though I won't get this job (christ would you unleash a fat, sex mad, brummie on vogue) I will at least try to get some work experience on to my cv.
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Unread 2 May 2007, 02:29   #19
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

Graduate recruitment is a minefield. You should get closer with every attempt, so long as you learn from where you **** up I guess.
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Unread 2 May 2007, 08:54   #20
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Re: [job]graduate recruitment[rant]

In my opinion, it's all about your attitude at those interviews because those 30 others who applied surely have the same competences as you have.
Doesn't seem more then logical that they look at things like energy and such?

I'm graduating in 4 weeks and signed my contract for interim financial yesterday. It only took 3,5 weeks in total.
Had 3 job interviews, 1, my first one, didn't go to well, but the ones after both gave me a second interview and after that an assessment.
They both wanted me so I got to pick.
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