User Name
Password

Go Back   Planetarion Forums > Non Planetarion Discussions > General Discussions

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 17:01   #1
Stifler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Swansea
Posts: 798
Stifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond repute
[Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Excellant article, all the people jumping on Liverpool / Rafa after Tuesday should read this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Tomkins, It's all over for Liverpool. Official
So that's it. Sack Rafa Benítez. Hand back the European Cup now on permanent display at the club. Forfeit third place in the current league campaign, and cancel the tie with Barcelona. It's all over. Silence the pianos and with muffled drum bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.

What is the world coming to? More importantly, what is sports writing coming to? To say I'm livid at some of the stuff being written about Liverpool FC this week would be an understatement. The only thing worse than Liverpool's defending and goalkeeping against Arsenal the other night has been the unmitigated tripe written about the state of the club as a result.

According to The Guardian's Richard Williams, Rafael Benítez cannot even accept any credit for his success in Istanbul, but must – get this! – shoulder the blame for the Arsenal "glorified reserve match" debacle? On what planet does this pass as logic?

The latter shouldering of blame is of course due; Benítez chose the side, and it failed. Even though it was capable of winning, as both sides had a similar look, with a mixture of kids and reserves, plus a couple of first teamers. So as manager, that's his rap to take. He apologised.

But to discredit the man for winning the Champions League – with the average side he inherited – is, quite frankly, the kind of comment that should have a football writer's licence revoked (okay, so we don't need licences, but it's something to campaign for).

While we're at it, let's strip Mohammed Ali of a few of his belts, and declare five of Michael Schumacher's Grand Prix titles null and void. I have no axe to grind with Williams in general, and this is not a personal attack on him. But he might be better off returning to reviewing films if he cannot see the most basic aspects of Liverpool's monumental achievement in 2005.

Liverpool overcame Juventus and Chelsea – the expensively assembled Champions-elect of Italy and England – on the way to Istanbul, as well as two of the previous season's semi-finalists in the group stage (Monaco and Deportivo La Coruna). Plus the mighty AC Milan in the final. Yes, it needed Milan to take their eye off the ball in the second half; although it still took the drive of Steven Gerrard to scare the life out of them. And yes, it needed Shevchenko to miss the unmissable (credit as well to Dudek, who was as inspired that night as he was insipid against Arsenal).

But that comeback came on the back of Rafa's tactical changes at half-time. When Steve Finnan went off injured, Didi Hamann came on – not your unimaginative like-for-like replacement. Liverpool switched formation, to 3-5-1-1. Harry Kewell had already been replaced by Vladimir Smicer, so Rafa had to work extra hard with all his reshuffling, such as when switching Steven Gerrard to right-back late in the game, to deal with Serginho, and moving the lightweight Smicer into central midfield.

Who decided to introduce Hamann – ostensibly a defensive player – knowing it could positively change the game? Was it one of Ken Dodd's Diddy Men? (No pun intended.) Might other managers have gambled by throwing on a second out-and-out striker, such as Djibril Cissé?

And who switched the formation? Was it Cilla Black?

Rafa cannot live off Istanbul forever; however, he doesn't deserve to have his achievement belittled or wiped out, as it just gives more rope to his purblind accusers. Can Rafa still take credit for last season's 82 points, the highest the club has managed for 18 years, and enough for other teams to have won the league with in the interim? Can he take credit for last season's FA Cup, where Manchester United and Chelsea were bested in the earlier rounds?

This is a man who was the first in the Reds' history to win trophies in his first two seasons. He won an extremely important trophy in his first season, and a 'nice' one in his second. Wenger had a comparable haul from his first five seasons; Ferguson had an inferior haul from his first five seasons. Wenger, as great as he is, won nothing between 1998 and 2002, and infamously saw his team do far worse in the Champions League than Liverpool have been lately. Now Benítez is under pressure after six months without a trophy?

Wenger has had eleven years to get his youth and reserve systems right, and boy has he done so. But, unlike Benítez, who was still trying to make wholesale changes last summer, Wenger and Ferguson are at the stage where they've had their 'own' players for years now, and simply need to add a couple every summer to maintain their vision.

Has Rafa made mistakes? He certainly has. As have Wenger, Mourinho and Ferguson. And in the last three seasons, Rafa's record stands up against any of them, especially when weighted against both budget and/or time in charge.

Also, Rafa cannot say he's had the luck of the draw in any competition. This league campaign started with consecutive away trips to Everton, Bolton, Chelsea, Arsenal and Manchester United – a cruel fixture list. And in the domestic cups Benítez, unbelievably, is still yet to face a team below mid-table in the Championship. It's worth noting, especially in a week when Chelsea have played Macclesfield and Wycombe, and given United have twice faced non-league teams in that time, as well as lowly league opposition. Rafa has not had one 'easy' cup tie that essentially passes as a bye to the next round.

Yes, I'm pro-Benítez, as I think he's a top class manager who should be indulged, mistakes and all. As I also write for the official Liverpool website, I'm prone to defending the club (especially on that site, as it's what you'd expect). When I have nothing good to say about something – such as Tuesday's game – I'll say next-to-nothing. Scapegoats are not my stock-in-trade.

Argentine centre-back Garbiel Paletta is currently being rounded on, and yet he's 20 – a mere babe for a position that takes years to grow into. Unlike many of Arsenal's impressive kids, he's been in England for just six months. Jamie Carragher was similarly lambasted in the position the late 90s, especially after two own goals against Manchester United. Look at him now.

Paletta wasn't bought to be in the first team at this stage of his career; he's here to learn. And sure, he had a harsh lesson. Perhaps Williams never made mistakes as a young rookie? Paletta's lack of pace is a concern, but it never harmed Sami Hyypia, who was rejected by Oldham and other English clubs when older than Paletta now is.

While Tuesday represented the Reds' best chance of silverware this season, the game has to be put into context. For a start, it was for silverware that everyone discredits as soon as it's won. The game came after the crazy festive schedule, which also dealt Rafa the task of facing Arsenal in the FA Cup; hardly the easing into the competition you'd want.

Rafa put out a similarly mixed team against Burnley in 2005, just a few months after the Reds' youth side beat Spurs' first team at White Hart Lane, and while I was busy arguing about the long-term view after Burnley, others went hysterical. And by May the Reds were celebrating arguably the club's greatest success. His decision may not be similarly vindicated this time out, but the precedent is there to at least give the man some leeway.

Liverpool's senior players have played more matches in the last two and a half years than those of any other club: a ludicrous ten Champions League qualifying ties, two World Club Championship games, and all the extra ties that come with making it to not one, not two, but three cup finals in that time.

If Rafa wanted to protect many of his senior players in what is a competition of low value, who can blame him, with Momo Sissoko already seriously crocked in the Carling Cup? I bet he now wishes he'd also totally omitted Mark Gonzalez and especially Luis Garcia, whose midfield goals will be missed in his six-month absence, not least in the tie with his old club, Barcelona.

Making money has never been my motivation in writing about Liverpool. I've made a living from writing books, and but for ill health (and great frustration) I'd be doing a 5th. But my motivation has always been righting some of the unjust criticism the club receives, and if I'm no longer in a position to write new books, I can still stand up (or sit down) and be counted at a time like this, especially with my blood boiling.

The game against Arsenal was bad. Muy malo, Rafa might say. There's little to defend about the performance. But there's still plenty to defend about the manager, the club, and its players. In Kuyt, Agger, Alonso, Garcia, Reina, Sissoko and Bellamy, Benítez has spent his money extremely wisely, while Pennant and Gonzalez still have the potential to join that list.

Peter Crouch, ludicrously described as 'hapless' by Williams, despite top-scoring for Liverpool and England in 2006, has been worth every pence of the £7m paid, when at the time people said he wasn't even worth £2m. He's now apparently valued at £12m. Crouch's Champions League goals – four in just five games – took the club through to the tie with Barcelona. He also grabbed the crucial goal in the qualifying round.

So there you have it, a club in crisis managed by a man who played no part in his own greatest success. Next week, how Winston Churchill had nothing to do with WWII.
__________________
In Elysium till the end.

Former [1up]

Current [Spore]

Returned under the IRC nick BenSwansea
Stifler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 17:46   #2
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Peter Crouch, ludicrously described as 'hapless' by Williams, despite top-scoring for Liverpool and England in 2006, has been worth every pence of the £7m paid, when at the time people said he wasn't even worth £2m. He's now apparently valued at £12m. Crouch's Champions League goals – four in just five games – took the club through to the tie with Barcelona. He also grabbed the crucial goal in the qualifying round.
1 goal against Uruguay.
1 goal against Hungary.
3 goals against Jamaica.
1 goal against Trinidad & Tobago.
2 goals against Greece.
2 goals against Andorra.
1 goal against Macedonia.


Not exactly the greatest teams in the world. I'll grant you that he's rather effective against Championship-class defenders, but he was dominated by Toure and Senderos last Saturday in Liverpool's FA Cup match against Arsenal. Every time the ball was lobbed up to him one of those two either got the first touch, or the second (after he won the header) as an Arsenal defender took the ball off him.

Anyone who can afford to pay £12m for Crouch can afford to buy someone better. Simple.
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 18:18   #3
G.K Zhukov
Evil inside
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
G.K Zhukov is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

He's "forgetting" the ammount of money Rafa has used to buy the players he can now muster (not mentioning that he got Gerrard, Gallagher and Riise for instance from Houlier).

He have been given more time /and money) than most managers these days to assemble the team he wants. If that team fails after the years and millions, its his fault.
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
G.K Zhukov is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 18:36   #4
All Systems Go
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

I think people are going a little over the top. It's only halfway through the season and they are third in the league. Yes, they are out of both cups to Arsenal but that in itself is not a disgrace, although the manner in going out was. they've also reached the last 16 of the Champions League and if they don't go through it's because they will have lost to arguably the best team in the world.

What is the problem?
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
All Systems Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 18:58   #5
KoeN
Lucky
Helicopter Champion
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: -
Posts: 3,830
KoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant future
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I think people are going a little over the top. It's only halfway through the season and they are third in the league.
my thoughts exactly. but maybe this is (English) football; dramatising everything to the bone.
KoeN is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 19:15   #6
KoeN
Lucky
Helicopter Champion
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: -
Posts: 3,830
KoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant future
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
just tell me one thing koen. JUST TELL ME ONE THING.
why did all the english clubs finish top of their groups in europe?
eh?
you tell me why that is.
!
because they were so lucky not having to play against Bayern Munich, Inter Milan, Valencia, AS Roma, Olympique Lyon, Real Madrid and AC Milan, maybe?
KoeN is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 19:30   #7
KoeN
Lucky
Helicopter Champion
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: -
Posts: 3,830
KoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant future
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
either that or they didn't have ....ing ginger hair amirite koen!?
:crymeariver:
KoeN is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 19:47   #8
Stifler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Swansea
Posts: 798
Stifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
He's "forgetting" the ammount of money Rafa has used to buy the players he can now muster (not mentioning that he got Gerrard, Gallagher and Riise for instance from Houlier).
He also had players like Diao from Houlier, and Houlier paid £10m for Diouf as well

Quote:
He have been given more time /and money) than most managers these days to assemble the team he wants. If that team fails after the years and millions, its his fault.
he has been at liverpool for 2.5years, thats not much time.

He hasnt had that much money really
__________________
In Elysium till the end.

Former [1up]

Current [Spore]

Returned under the IRC nick BenSwansea
Stifler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 21:06   #9
Deffeh
Angry Young Man
 
Deffeh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mister Cacciatore's down on Sullivan Street
Posts: 7,518
Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

78 million spent, 92 if you include cisse who arrived under him but was clearly a houllier signing.

Liverpool have never beaten a top side by more than 1 goal.


Its harsh, but if they want to be any more than the 4th best team in the league, rafa's gotta go.
__________________

Believe in me, cause i don't believe in anything
And i wanna be someone, to believe, to believe in
Deffeh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 21:28   #10
Stifler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Swansea
Posts: 798
Stifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Its harsh, but if they want to be any more than the 4th best team in the league, rafa's gotta go.
This is a top quality comedy post

I should bookmark this for when Rafa brings us the elusive number 19!
__________________
In Elysium till the end.

Former [1up]

Current [Spore]

Returned under the IRC nick BenSwansea
Stifler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 21:56   #11
Deffeh
Angry Young Man
 
Deffeh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mister Cacciatore's down on Sullivan Street
Posts: 7,518
Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

you are actually deluded. Whats the difference between arsenal/man utd and liverpool?

Arsenal and Man Utd have systems. A player can get injured, and they play the same way. Everyone knows where they are meant to be in the team, and subsequently you maximise the output of the eleven players you have on the pitch. This happens when you have good training, and a good formation, and a good understanding.

With liverpool (and chelsea, may i say) this isnt the case. Its a team of individuals that mostly dont understand the complexities of the positions they play and subsequently they play below their capability. They arent a unit in the same way as arsenal and man utd are - those two attack as a team, give and go, good movement, great positional awareness. This comes down to coaching, consistency, and training. And its simply not happening at liverpool.
__________________

Believe in me, cause i don't believe in anything
And i wanna be someone, to believe, to believe in
Deffeh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11 Jan 2007, 22:22   #12
Stifler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Swansea
Posts: 798
Stifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Arsenal and man united have also had their managers for 10 and 20 years... So they have built the teams exactly how the manager wants.

The only reason chelsea has won 2 league titles in 2 years is because of "the russian's" money, which judging by the latest headlines is starting to backfire on Jose, they can pretty much be put down to an anomaly pretty much.

Rafa has been at liverpool only 2.5 years and I am extremely confident that if Rafa had been at Liverpool as long Wenger has been at Arsenal, Liverpool would be a far superior team.

He has been at Liverpool 1/4 of the time Wenger has been at Arsenal and won more European trophies and at Liverpool 1/8 of the time as Ferguson has been at United and won the same amount european trophies.

Lastly, I can confidently say that Rafa will bring us the title next season or the season after.
__________________
In Elysium till the end.

Former [1up]

Current [Spore]

Returned under the IRC nick BenSwansea
Stifler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 00:30   #13
Boogster
I dunno...
 
Boogster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
Boogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud ofBoogster has much to be proud of
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Liverpool (I'm a fan) haven't, imo, got good enough players to win the championship at the moment but that's no reason to get rid of Rafa for heaven's sake. He hasn't had the time that Wenger or Fergie have had, nor the money that the tosser of Chelsea has had. Let's compare our progress to, say, Tottenham or Newcastle.
__________________
He shall drink naught but brine, for I'll not show him / Where the quick freshes are.
Boogster is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 00:41   #14
Deffeh
Angry Young Man
 
Deffeh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mister Cacciatore's down on Sullivan Street
Posts: 7,518
Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Liverpool have not "lost" a single player to another club - with the possible exception of owen, who is shit anyway, under benitez - all the sales were at liverpools choice. There has been an incredible turnaround and flow of money going through the club, in and out. Its his team, and he has still no real "mark" on the club. Nominally liverpool play a 4-4-2, almost by default - but every team he puts out seems to be makeshift. There is no real system.


edit : were liverpool a tottenham or newcastle sized club or had spent about the same as them, your point would be valid. But its an ambitious rich club with very ambitious fans, and comparing them to someone like spurs or the geordies is a bit of an insult, really
__________________

Believe in me, cause i don't believe in anything
And i wanna be someone, to believe, to believe in
Deffeh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 00:58   #15
G.K Zhukov
Evil inside
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
G.K Zhukov is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

If it's looked into, I bet Rafa has spent more money per season on players than Wenger.

But he complains about cash problems vs Wenger:
http://www.teamtalk.com/football/sto...828835,00.html

Can someone find a webby where the various managers transfer activities are listed?
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
G.K Zhukov is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 01:23   #16
Deffeh
Angry Young Man
 
Deffeh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mister Cacciatore's down on Sullivan Street
Posts: 7,518
Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

www.soccerbase.com lists pretty much almost all the transfers, it doesnt know ALL the prices though but its the best source i can find.

interesting site actually.

Also i already did all the math dont you trust me?
__________________

Believe in me, cause i don't believe in anything
And i wanna be someone, to believe, to believe in
Deffeh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 01:36   #17
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Saying liverpool are superior to arsenal because they won the european cup and arsenal didn't is just beyond silly. Especially when it comes to the manager.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 02:11   #18
lokken
BlueTuba
 
lokken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.lokken has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

I think this rotation is something that has spawned as a result of the champions league win. He certainly seems to have become paranoid about his players being tired. The fact is you settle into the league, and then you rotate against the non-entity sides at home.

I think Liverpool need to go back to playing negative football with Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko in the centre when they are fit. Simply because such a combination was so effective in glossing over liverpool's real weaknesses and being a huge barrier to stop sides and more importantly, it'll get them results away from home.

I for one hope he keeps rotating. Will help us out no end.
__________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
lokken is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 02:36   #19
Stifler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Swansea
Posts: 798
Stifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Liverpool have not "lost" a single player to another club - with the possible exception of owen, who is shit anyway, under benitez - all the sales were at liverpools choice. There has been an incredible turnaround and flow of money going through the club, in and out. Its his team, and he has still no real "mark" on the club. Nominally liverpool play a 4-4-2, almost by default - but every team he puts out seems to be makeshift. There is no real system.


edit : were liverpool a tottenham or newcastle sized club or had spent about the same as them, your point would be valid. But its an ambitious rich club with very ambitious fans, and comparing them to someone like spurs or the geordies is a bit of an insult, really
Maybe not lost players as such, but he cant get his first choice players and its not because they dont want to come or their clubs wont sell them but because they are asking £1-2m more then we can afford.

An example this season, it is well known that Rafa wanted Kuyt and Alves, and we did agree a fee (not 100% sure) and then his club increased their demand by ~£1.5m at the last minute or they just gave a fee of ~£1.5m more then we could afford, i think its the first option but dont quote me on that. But basicly we couldnt afford both players, so we got Kuyt and Pennent (who is someone Rafa obviously rates but wasnt his preferred choice)

As far as Bellamy is concerned he had a £6m release fee and his purchase is being offset by the future sale of Cisse
__________________
In Elysium till the end.

Former [1up]

Current [Spore]

Returned under the IRC nick BenSwansea
Stifler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 02:40   #20
Cannon_Fodder
Registered User
 
Cannon_Fodder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,174
Cannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

In general agreement with the article until it gets to: In Kuyt, Agger, Alonso, Garcia, Reina, Sissoko and Bellamy, Benítez has spent his money extremely wisely, while Pennant and Gonzalez still have the potential to join that list.

Thereafter Deffeh speaks the truth.
__________________
If one person is in delusion, they're called insane.
If many people are in delusion, it's called a religion.
Cannon_Fodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 02:44   #21
Stifler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Swansea
Posts: 798
Stifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
If it's looked into, I bet Rafa has spent more money per season on players than Wenger.
Rafa has spent a net of ~£48m, which is means its an ~£16m transfer budget a season and while this is alot, its not really that much for a club of Liverpools size when you consider what chelsea spend (however they are just an exception really) but you have to consider United spent £18m on Carrik alone. Arsenal also spent, as examples, ~£8m on Walcott and ~£4m on Denilson.

Someone else will have to get the rest of Arsenals signing if you really want to
__________________
In Elysium till the end.

Former [1up]

Current [Spore]

Returned under the IRC nick BenSwansea
Stifler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 02:48   #22
Stifler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Swansea
Posts: 798
Stifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond reputeStifler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Saying liverpool are superior to arsenal because they won the european cup and arsenal didn't is just beyond silly. Especially when it comes to the manager.
No i wasnt saying that makes liverpool superior, just pointing out Arsenal hasnt won the cup in Wengers 10 years, but Rafa won it for Liverpool in his first. Its not like we had a easy run through either.

I'm just saying if Rafa had the same period at Liverpool as Wengers 10 years at Arsenal, then I'm confident he would have a better 10 years and his team would play just as nice attacking football
__________________
In Elysium till the end.

Former [1up]

Current [Spore]

Returned under the IRC nick BenSwansea
Stifler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 02:50   #23
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

This year wasn't Carrick the only player Utd bought? And didn't they sell Horseface for like 11 million?
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 02:56   #24
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stifler
no i was just saying Arsenal hasnt won the cup in Wengers 10 years, but Rafa won it for Liverpool in his first. Its not like we had a easy run through either.
Why are you saying this though? Liverpool won on penalties after a bizzare second half against a team which pissed on them in the first half. Arsenal lost by one goal after having a lunatic of a goalie sent off against probably the best team in the last ten years of European football. Considering everything from both sides I wouldn't rate either achievement ahead of the other really.

Quote:
I'm just saying if Rafa had the same period at Liverpool as Wengers 10 years at Arsenal, then I'm confident he would have a better 10 years and his team would play just as nice attacking football
Bear in mind I think Benitez is a decent manager and Liverpool firing him now would be nearly as stupid as Rangers firing Le Guen but that is just random supposition.



Incidentally I read this on wikipedia just now
Quote:
he 2004 season was a different story. Valencia CF won La Liga with three games to go and beat Olympique de Marseille 2-0 in the UEFA Cup final. Despite this success, Benítez fell out with Jesus Garcia Pitarch, the club's director of sport, over control of new signings and the club's failure to reinforce the squad with the players he wanted. These differences of opinion saw Benítez resign as Valencia CF coach in June 2004.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 03:46   #25
Deffeh
Angry Young Man
 
Deffeh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mister Cacciatore's down on Sullivan Street
Posts: 7,518
Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Rangers getting rid of le guen was debateable; he clearly didnt have a clue about scottish football and frankly, barry ferguson _is_ bigger than the manager at rangers fc right now, because hes just about their only player worth his salt.

Re istanbul, it was a glorious run and a glorious achievement, but as much as benitez's subsitutions were lauded - why did kewell start in the first place,etc - gerrard and carragher were the real leaders behind that triumph. Dont forget it was benitez that sent out the team that lost the first half 3-0 as well.


I dont buy the 'doesnt get his first choices' either - i really cant think of too many players liverpool have been strongly linked with and have been outpriced. Especially given a new stadium is being built the board have been extremely generous to Benitez who has plowed £80million in to a squad that doesnt resemble a team.

There are players with sheer class in liverpool - we all know gerrards a world beater - pennant was the best crosser in the league last year - bellamy scored a shit load of goals and has bags of pace for blackburn - kuyt is a real trier and a clever footballer - alonso is arguably the best passer in the premiership - gonzales looked shit hot in spain - kewell was brilliant at leeds and ripped england apart for australia (and you cant just blame injuries) - cisse did nothing after costing £14m and wearing france's #9 shirt

why when they come to liverpool do they not perform on a consistent basis and why do they struggle against the top sides? I include Gerrard in this criticism.

On paper, liverpools team is ****ing tremendous. Im sorry, but it is - ive been very critical of them recently but aside from wingers, i dont really think there needs to be any signings in the club. Lucas Neill did good at the World Cup but i dont really see the point - the problem with liverpool is that it doesnt matter who comes into the club, its how they play when they actually get there - cristiano ronaldo could join liverpool and suddenly every week would be the loltastic cristiano ronaldo of old with the stepovers to nowhere rather than the world class player he is.

I cannot stress it enough times, theres something rotten at anfield, and its all in the system and the lack of team-consistency, both of which are ENTIRELY down to rafa benitez. They dont have a clue how to get the full backs forward - they dont have wingers that hug the touchline and can beat a man and get a ball in the box - they cant defend corners, and they cant attack from corners (though attacking from corners has improved slightly). They dont have a link between the midfield and the forwards even though gerrard and kuyt could both do it. They dont have an understanding between the strikers. Its not even clear whether they want to be a side that attacks through the middle, or on the wings. Its certainly not happening down the wings anyway.

I would be happy to see a liverpool team next year that still read carra agger gerrard kuyt crouch pennant etc etc - so long as it looked like they knew what they were doing. Most of them are very talented players who are underperforming and being underutilized.

Exceptions :

Aurelio - get out. slow, one footed, stupid as a ****ing plank
Paletta - Liverpools answer to Du Wei
Kewell - hasnt done anything since he came
Dudek - let istanbul sleep, and leave it at that
Zenden - benitez clearly doesnt want to use him out wide and hes shit in the center
Fowler - its over.

In terms of who needs to be brought in? Like i said, wingers are the main issue.. but if they went 3-5-2 then riise could do the job as left wing back, and finnan's attacking play has improved remarkably recently - but even still, you would like to see more attack minded players challenging for these positions if liverpool really want to penetrate.
__________________

Believe in me, cause i don't believe in anything
And i wanna be someone, to believe, to believe in
Deffeh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 08:32   #26
Sleepless
Estharian
 
Sleepless's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 48
Sleepless is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
78 million spent, 92 if you include cisse who arrived under him but was clearly a houllier signing.

Liverpool have never beaten a top side by more than 1 goal.


Its harsh, but if they want to be any more than the 4th best team in the league, rafa's gotta go.
Lol
__________________
[Fury]/[Wrath], [Eclipse], [1up], []LCH[], CT & Ascendancy

-=Estharian Since R4=-
Sleepless is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 08:46   #27
Sleepless
Estharian
 
Sleepless's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 48
Sleepless is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
I cannot stress it enough times, theres something rotten at anfield, and its all in the system and the lack of team-consistency, both of which are ENTIRELY down to rafa benitez. They dont have a clue how to get the full backs forward - they dont have wingers that hug the touchline and can beat a man and get a ball in the box - they cant defend corners, and they cant attack from corners (though attacking from corners has improved slightly). They dont have a link between the midfield and the forwards even though gerrard and kuyt could both do it. They dont have an understanding between the strikers. Its not even clear whether they want to be a side that attacks through the middle, or on the wings. Its certainly not happening down the wings anyway.

I would be happy to see a liverpool team next year that still read carra agger gerrard kuyt crouch pennant etc etc - so long as it looked like they knew what they were doing. Most of them are very talented players who are underperforming and being underutilized.
I agree with what you wrote and i'm sure Liverpool will be a much better team next year under Rafa's guidance.
__________________
[Fury]/[Wrath], [Eclipse], [1up], []LCH[], CT & Ascendancy

-=Estharian Since R4=-
Sleepless is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 11:41   #28
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stifler
Rafa has spent a net of ~£48m, which is means its an ~£16m transfer budget a season and while this is alot, its not really that much for a club of Liverpools size when you consider what chelsea spend (however they are just an exception really) but you have to consider United spent £18m on Carrik alone. Arsenal also spent, as examples, ~£8m on Walcott and ~£4m on Denilson.

Someone else will have to get the rest of Arsenals signing if you really want to
Don't make an argument (Chelsea spend lots lol) and then admit it's as weak as it is. Just don't make it at all. Chelsea is a freak club that has changed the nature of Premiership football - Liverpool's true comparators are Man United and Arsenal.


Arsenal's transfers

2004/5 - £1m in, £2.6m out
2005/6 - £19.15m in, £13.7m out
2006/7 - £3.4m in, £4m out

Total net transfer spend since Benitez was appointed - £3.25m

Now, I'll be honest with you. Arsenal made a bunch of signings in the previous season which are easy to forget about - Reyes and Van Persie hardly came cheap.

January 2004 transfer window - £13.25m in, £0.1m out.

Total net transfer spend from Jan 2004 - £16.5m

Over 3 years, that's an average of £5.5m per year. Both Newcastle and Spurs have spent more than that.


Liverpool's transfers

Now, should I include the Houllier transfers that came into effect when Benitez was appointed? I'm not going to, but for reference:
Jan 2004-June 2004 - £14m in, £6.25m out

2004/5 - £19.55m in, £2.5m out
2005/6 - £32.4m in, £9.5m out
2006/7 - £6.7m in, £3.08m out

Total net transfer spend excluding Houllier - £43.57m

Over 3 years, that's an average of £14.5m per season. Not unreasonable for a club topping the league, but Liverpool just isn't doing that. I agree with a lot of what Deffeh says - the failure of his signings to gel has to fall on Benitez's shoulders.
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 11:54   #29
Ste
Bored
 
Ste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
Posts: 6,506
Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

In the first few years of a manager at a club they're going to spend quite a bit getting the players they want surely?

I also think trying to compare Rafa with Wenger or Ferguson isn't helpful. They're both arguably 2 of the best managers the English club game has ever seen (after Sir Brian of course )
__________________
Wise men write because they have something to write about; fools write because they have to write something. - Plato

yeh so Plastic Brilliance is now known as FOXYSTOAT - Come on by and check it out!
Ste is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 12:04   #30
pig
1up on you
 
pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Liverpool fans make me laugh. Shit in the 90s, shit in naughties until rafa comes along.

You won a european cup. You have won the legue cup, an fa cup (probably something else, I really dont care) You can consistently finish in the top 4. At times you play inspiring football.

Liverpool are punching above their weight in footballing terms. I think this is down to two factors. Rafa Benetiz and Steven Gerrard. Take away those two factors and Liverpool are a nothing club.

If I was a red scouse fan I would be wetting myself that I have seen them win a European Cup in my lifetime, something that I can only dream of as a Villa fan.

I personally believe Benetiz has made some cracking signings, but I also dont buy this whole stuff that Liverpool are on the same level as Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd. At least in footballing terms. Teams dont fear Liverpool they arent the force they were in the 70s/80s.

However they are winning what they can with what they have.

Then again typical Liverpool fans jumping on the managers back as soon as there quota of one trophy a year doesnt come in. Pathetic.
__________________
pig
[1up]
pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 12:24   #31
furball
Registered Awesome Person
 
furball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.furball has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
In the first few years of a manager at a club they're going to spend quite a bit getting the players they want surely?
Neither Wenger nor Ferguson really spent excessive amounts in their first few years in charge. Wenger of course signed numerous Frenchmen for pittances - Viera, Petit, Anelka, etc and won the title within 3 years. Ferguson inherited a weak Man United team, but spent wisely and formed the basis for a title-winning team fairly quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I also think trying to compare Rafa with Wenger or Ferguson isn't helpful. They're both arguably 2 of the best managers the English club game has ever seen (after Sir Brian of course )
But looking at the Liverpool fans' expectations, Liverpool should be achieving exactly what they did. Cups really do count for nothing until you win the league, and Benitez isn't even close.
__________________
Finally free!
furball is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 12:32   #32
KoeN
Lucky
Helicopter Champion
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: -
Posts: 3,830
KoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant futureKoeN has a brilliant future
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

pig is right.
KoeN is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 12:44   #33
pig
1up on you
 
pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Cups really do count for nothing until you win the league, and Benitez isn't even close.
This is bollacks.

This is the pecking order of importance as far as cups go in the English Game.

European Cup
The League
The Fa Cup
The League Cup

The league comes second to the european cup, every f*cking time.

As an arsenal fan, you won't admit this of course. Yes you will probably retort with the fact villa haven't won the premiership. Well let me tell you sunshine, football was invented before sky and 1992. It has a history and Villa have won the league numerous times and the European Cup.

The Eruopean Cup will always be the most sought after trophy. You can't just buy it. You can't play teams like Sunderland (no offence Jakiri) and Blues every other week to maintain an unbeaten record, you have to play the best and eventually become the best in Europe.

Being Champions of Europe is an exclusive club, and by eck it beats winning any league.

So your comment is bollacks.
__________________
pig
[1up]
pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 12:50   #34
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

There's probably a greater correlation between the best team in each league and the winners of the league that year than there is between being the best team in europe and winning the european cup though.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 12:54   #35
MrL_JaKiri
The Twilight of the Gods
 
MrL_JaKiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

None taken, if you can't score enough we're kind enough to do it for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
There's probably a greater correlation between the best team in each league and the winners of the league that year than there is between being the best team in europe and winning the european cup though.
That depends what you believe makes a team be the "best".
MrL_JaKiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 12:57   #36
Ste
Bored
 
Ste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
Posts: 6,506
Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Ste has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Neither Wenger nor Ferguson really spent excessive amounts in their first few years in charge. Wenger of course signed numerous Frenchmen for pittances - Viera, Petit, Anelka, etc and won the title within 3 years. Ferguson inherited a weak Man United team, but spent wisely and formed the basis for a title-winning team fairly quickly.
Umm, have you looked at Fergusons first few years in charge? He was one game away from being sacked at at least one point.
His seasons before winning the title were: 11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 6th, 2nd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Being Champions of Europe is an exclusive club, and by eck it beats winning any league.
It's not the same now they let the top 4 teams in
Back in the day when only the champions were allowed in... That's when a european trophy was worth something
__________________
Wise men write because they have something to write about; fools write because they have to write something. - Plato

yeh so Plastic Brilliance is now known as FOXYSTOAT - Come on by and check it out!
Ste is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 13:01   #37
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That depends what you believe makes a team be the "best".
The team which plays the quality of football which on any given day is probable to win against the highest number of other teams would probably be close to what I mean. It's certainly not something I'd necessarily measure by success in cups or leagues.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 13:04   #38
MrL_JaKiri
The Twilight of the Gods
 
MrL_JaKiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
The team which plays the quality of football which on any given day is probable to win against the highest number of other teams would probably be close to what I mean. It's certainly not something I'd necessarily measure by success in cups or leagues.
Barcelona wouldn't perform very well on a cold, wet night against Grimsby Town or the like, so I doubt it's them. Bolton would be my choice!
MrL_JaKiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 13:04   #39
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Rangers getting rid of le guen was debateable; he clearly didnt have a clue about scottish football and frankly, barry ferguson _is_ bigger than the manager at rangers fc right now, because hes just about their only player worth his salt.
I missed this originally and so just on a minor note I'd point out that Le Guen is a manager with a proven track record at the highest level and imagining he couldn't adapt to the Scottish game is just silly. It's like those cretins who insisted Larsson could only score in Scotland. Sacrificing your manager to please your captain is a weak move, not likely to pay off in the long-term.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 13:06   #40
JonnyBGood
Banned
 
JonnyBGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Barcelona wouldn't perform very well on a cold, wet night against Grimsby Town or the like, so I doubt it's them. Bolton would be my choice!
They wouldn't perform well but they'd still piss on them. Probably we'd need some sort of co-efficient seeding process or something. How would you define it?




PS How about team most likely to win a european super league!
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
JonnyBGood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 14:02   #41
MrL_JaKiri
The Twilight of the Gods
 
MrL_JaKiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
They wouldn't perform well but they'd still piss on them.
Some of Barcelona's less than inspired performances in the league over the last few years suggests that's not exactly a well supported assumption.
MrL_JaKiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 14:07   #42
G.K Zhukov
Evil inside
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
G.K Zhukov is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Anyone can win a cup, it takes consistancy to win the league.
G.K Zhukov is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 14:16   #43
MrL_JaKiri
The Twilight of the Gods
 
MrL_JaKiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Anyone can win a cup, it takes consistancy to win the league.
They both take a good whack of luck, as well.
MrL_JaKiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 14:17   #44
All Systems Go
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.All Systems Go has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
This is bollacks.

This is the pecking order of importance as far as cups go in the English Game.

European Cup
The League
The Fa Cup
The League Cup

The league comes second to the european cup, every f*cking time.
Firstly, I disagree.

secondly, it's more complex than that. the background is rather important. For Liverpool winning the European Cup was great victory but it masks the fact that the did shit in the league, which makes up the bulk of their season.

If you're not challenging for the title (they weren't even close to third out of four theoretical contenders) then you lose part of the legitimacy of saying you're the best team in Europe.

You could go on to say that a poor performance in the league for one anomolous season could be overlooked, but they have done nothing in the league for quite a while so they don't even have that defence.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
All Systems Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 16:09   #45
Deffeh
Angry Young Man
 
Deffeh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mister Cacciatore's down on Sullivan Street
Posts: 7,518
Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Liverpool fans make me laugh. Shit in the 90s, shit in naughties until rafa comes along.

Liverpool are punching above their weight in footballing terms. I personally believe Benetiz has made some cracking signings, but I also dont buy this whole stuff that Liverpool are on the same level as Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd. At least in footballing terms. Teams dont fear Liverpool they arent the force they were in the 70s/80s.
Ive only quoted the important bits here.


If i was saying 'rafa out' without backing it up you might have a point. (Actually what im saying that he has until the end of the season to prove liverpool can cut it against the big teams.


My second point you pretty much make for me - Liverpool ARENT on the same footballing level as arsenal or man utd (or have the sheer firepower chelsea do, but they dont have a system either so im deliberately leaving them out).

But i have no idea why you think they shouldnt be, given their past, given their european history, the stadium, the fans, etc etc etc, unless you are just one of these people who dont like Liverpool FC and are going to hold this bizarre notion of '4th is higher than they belong', which in any analysis is just pathetic and wrong.
__________________

Believe in me, cause i don't believe in anything
And i wanna be someone, to believe, to believe in
Deffeh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 16:16   #46
pig
1up on you
 
pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

You disagree?

You think winning the league means more than winning the European Cup?

No one ever remembers the league winners, they remember the European Cup winners though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
If you're not challenging for the title (they weren't even close to third out of four theoretical contenders) then you lose part of the legitimacy of saying you're the best team in Europe.
I disagree. The legitamcy is done on the season you qualified. When Villa qualified we were league champions (81) in the year we won the European Cup we finished 11th (82) now for a team of villa who had a squad of 16 players to achieve league and cup was nigh on impossible.

It was either league or cup.

Secondly regardless if Liverpools league form before the European Cup season was shite, that doesn't matter. The rules of the competition states that the top 4 teams in Britain qualify for the tournament.

It is certainly harder flying to Bucharest then driving to Bolton, or playing Real Madrid instead of Reading. The European Cup is and will remain to be the watermark for sucessful teams.

Chelsea, Blackburn, Man Utd, Arsenal have all shown that if you have money (and perhaps most importantly few teams who can challenge) the league can be yours.

I will finish with this quote of stes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
Anyone can win a cup, it takes consistancy to win the league
Anyone can win the league. Football was invented before 1992 and money.

The European Cup is the pinacle of Football. I bet if you asked any European Footballer what trophy do they desire the most, the european cup would be there. Keane wanted to win it so badly (i.e. actually play in it) Legends have been made because of it, and overall there is nothing quite like a European Football night.

Great Football, Great Passion, Great excitment.

Of course if a team south of New Street could actually ever win a European Cup I'm sure they would stop harping on about how great the league is.

A good team win the league. A great team win the cup.
__________________
pig
[1up]
pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 16:16   #47
Deffeh
Angry Young Man
 
Deffeh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mister Cacciatore's down on Sullivan Street
Posts: 7,518
Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Re le guen, JBG;

His method of 'adapting' was to publicly criticise the captains role in a football team, which in scotland - especially at rangers with all their die hard blue nose supporters practically pleasuring themselves seeing a ned like Barry ferguson represent the Queens XI - is just ****ing ridiculous.

Regardless of problems, ferguson was and is the best player they have in that side, and rangers dont have the resources to replace him, so guess what, your going to have to use him. Le Guen didnt understand this in the slightest.

He hadnt cottened on to the fact that in Scottish football, when you have the ball, teams dont sit back like a subbutteo pitch as they do on the continent. You are going to get closed down every second.

His signings either flopped outright, or are talented but clearly not suitable for scottish football. Why on earth you would sign a defender like svenson, who cant defend anything in the air to play in the SPL is just murder.


The final point is that Rangers more or less had no choice to get rid of le guen - he engineered his own departure probably because he was sick of the SPL already, sick of the huns expectations and wanted to be paid off without having to travel to inverness on cold nights in january. He took the armband off barry, dropped him, and tried to transfer list him to create a situation where the board basically had no choice but to pay him off, in my opinion. If you look at his interview post the motherwell game (the one he dropped ferguson for) he keeps saying "well, barry will be transferred if im still at the club".

Those werent the actions of someone who was confident (and perhaps wanting to) retain employment
__________________

Believe in me, cause i don't believe in anything
And i wanna be someone, to believe, to believe in
Deffeh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 16:26   #48
pig
1up on you
 
pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
But i have no idea why you think they shouldnt be, given their past, given their european history, the stadium, the fans, etc etc etc, unless you are just one of these people who dont like Liverpool FC and are going to hold this bizarre notion of '4th is higher than they belong', which in any analysis is just pathetic and wrong.

Villa are a big club, you don't hear us banging on about how we should be challenging for the league. We work within our means and go for glory. At the minute Liverpool can't challenge the top 3. They are probably the 4th best in the country, but not in that top tier.

The reason why Liverpool fans have this great belief they should challenge to win the league is because of the media. The media make you out to be a far better club than you actually are. It's painful the way the BBC massage your egos.

The Liverpool fans are also quite unrealistic. I can't remember one season since 1992 (the year I probably started watching football on a regular basis) when I thought liverpool were going to challenge.

Liverpool are a big club. Liverpool should be challenging for the league. Liverpool should be winning trophies.

But the sad fact of the matter is that you haven't in 15 years, however you have won a European Cup under this manager, which dwarfs most achievements. I rate him. I really do. Stick with him and see it out.

Fergies reign wasn't all roses when he started.
__________________
pig
[1up]
pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 16:35   #49
pig
1up on you
 
pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.pig has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG
Saying liverpool are superior to arsenal because they won the european cup and arsenal didn't is just beyond silly. Especially when it comes to the manager.
In terms of skill, finesse etc probably not. However no one will remember Arsenal for playing sexy football. But they will remember Liverpool for winning the European Cup. It is like Argentina in the previous WC, arguably they played the best football of the tournament. I reckon in a few years people wont remember it, it will be about the great Italian team effort that won it. Not the sexy football of the argies.
__________________
pig
[1up]
pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12 Jan 2007, 16:46   #50
Deffeh
Angry Young Man
 
Deffeh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mister Cacciatore's down on Sullivan Street
Posts: 7,518
Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Deffeh has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: [Football] Paul Tomkins Article on Liverpool

1. What you are arguing on is the past, and the 'past ends justify the current means', which is not neccesarily indicative of how a team is going to do in the future. Who is more likely to win the Champions League this year, liverpool or arsenal? Arsenal. Istanbul doesnt help the here and now.

2. Villa dont have the financial clout that Liverpool do, which is a significant element (obviously) in how a team does, and what its realistic ambitions should be. What don you understand about that? Liverpool match arsenal and man utd in pretty much every category you care to invent. There is NO shortage of money available - and will be even less so once the new ground is built*** - and maybe even more if the Dubai thing happens (im not happy about this, though).


You are basically arguing the same point as me - liverpool are the fourth best team in the league - but you cant understand that given the resources and eveyrthing else at benitez's disposal that _this isnt good enough_. Under benitez theyve been unable to cut it against the top teams in the league. Unless he proves that he can beat the top teams, he has to go.




*** - look what building the emirates has done to arsene's transfer budget - building the new anfield or stanley park or whatever hasnt stopped plenty of funds being made available for benitez, even though the club are struggling to pay for the stadium
__________________

Believe in me, cause i don't believe in anything
And i wanna be someone, to believe, to believe in
Deffeh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2018