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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 03:05   #1
All Systems Go
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2007: A Cultural Revolution

Arguably 2006 has been a 'lost year' in terms of great achievements in any field which has reached out and touched the collective psyche of the nation. Looking back over the previous 364 days there seems to only have been more of the same; more war, more Blair, more corporate scandal, more Big Brother. It just seems that you may as well look back over 2005 or even 2004. Would anyone really notice? It's all been rather dull. What about popular culture? Surely there must have been something worthwhile created to give this last year some sense of identity? None that I can find.

Whilst there have been some great movies relased and some great albums, none of them really had a great impact. A lot of fuss was made over the Arctic Monkeys debut album but the just came and went without too much fuss. Yes, their album was hyped to hell and back and the broke a sales record, but their absense from the public eye for long periods of times seemed to minimise any cultural impact. the rise of the Arctic Monkeys was followed by many other bands (any of whom could have filled their role just as easily i.e. the Kooks).

the two most notorious characters in the press this year (though they have been around for longer, albeit largely outside of the public consciousness) have reached a level of fame which has almost nothing to do with their work. 99.9% of stories involving these two have been tales of debuachery. I am of course refering to Russell Brand and Pete Doherty.

Over the past year their work has been greeted with relatively muted responses.

Brand's tv shows have been rather unsucessful since Big Brothers Big Mouth (which I suppose suceeded due to it's association with Big Brother) and Dohertys Babyshambles album (although released in late 2005) was also disproportionatly unsucessful when compared to the number of media inches he has recieved.

It would be strange if I managed to categorise any type of movement (social,
cultural, political, militarial) into a perfect time-frame of one year and with 2006 just being more of the same it would also make no sense if it had no history. Whilst writing this I had a point but not a clear agenda (does it show?) but I now think I've found it.

I predict over the next year (possibly years) we will see a substantial rise in the level of surreal/escapist works being created in an effort, firstly to make money of the bored youth, but to eascape the level of blandness that exists around. We have reach a plateu that will encourage others to explore less conventional paths in an effort to find something that is lacking at the moment.

Whilst you would be hard pressed to call either Brand or Doherty pioneers they have opened up a path (willing/knowingly or not) to others, whom the investors feel could make them money. there have certainly been indicators of this over the years (Spaced, Darkplace, whilst the Mighty Boosh is growing in popularity) and I think it will greatly incrase in popularity as time goes on. One possible reason for its failure at the moment is that no-one is really sure what to do with these types of characters and the individuals involed are not sure where to go so it is rather a case of trial and error whilst others will come out with a set idea and make a critical cultural impact.

I hope I'm right and I hope it'll come quickly. I would hate 2007 to be as bland as its predecessor.
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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 03:17   #2
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

three hundred and sixty five days is three hundred and sixty five days

This thread is the epitome of 'spoilt'.

"do nothing but demand to be entertained bigger, better and faster than any generation before"
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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 03:19   #3
All Systems Go
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
three hundred and sixty five days is three hundred and sixty five days

This thread is the epitome of 'spoilt'.

"do nothing but demand to be entertained bigger, better and faster than any generation before"
It's called 'progress'.
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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 03:21   #4
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
It's called 'progress'.
and if it doesn't happen ever five minutes we use 'prozac'
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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 05:46   #5
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Agreement with Yahwe.
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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 12:59   #6
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
maintaining the status quo is not inovation it is stagnation and in stagnation nothing good ever happens.
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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 13:12   #7
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

I really really hope you're trolling
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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 13:18   #8
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

why? he just schooled yahwe.
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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 18:15   #9
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

While nothing "obvious" has happened during 2006 that we have noticed, I expect that in a decade's time or so we'll see innovations which were started in 2006, or were being produced/provided in 2006. Something doesn't have to be started and finished in the same year for it to be noticeable.

Your examples of Russell Brand (who I actually really enjoy) and Pete Docherty (who i think is pretty talentless but he seems to be very successful) aren't really representative of anything. You seem to say "they have been successful but i don't know if britain is ready for them so we have yet to see if they will be successful" which doesn't really make any sense. No offence dude, but you could have chosen better examples.

Some things I noticed in 2006 that I expect will be referred to in future years:
-Jamie Oliver's "Healthy Eating" initiative in schools went from strength to strength (i'm likely to pay more attention to this kind of thing than most of you though, I guess)
-We supposedly have made some sort of progress in Iraq (although how you want to define progress seems to be pretty subjective)
-North Korea started some nuclear tests. Again, this could be the beginnings of something more serious - hopefully not.
-The Lib Dems lose what was a pretty good leader (in my humble opinion, although from what dante, sarina and a few others have said, my political views are normally "wrong"), due to alcoholism
-We lost TOTP
-Scotland starts the smoking ban initiative (guernsey did too, actually!!) which I think is a pretty big thing that will affect a large proportion of the population, whether we are smokers or not
-Bird Flu is discovered in the UK (hopefully this will not be something we refer back to as the beginnings of something more serious, but who knows)
-Saddam Hussein is sentenced to death


Those were off the top of my head.
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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 18:57   #10
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Perhaps we could have a nuclear war. That should register on all the charts. Personally, slow, unexciting change is good enough for me. Things which can be seen as revolutionary in a short span of time tend to be negative in nature.

Rock and Roll was a revolution in music but it took several years before it became evident as such.

What sort of change (using historical examples) are you talking about which would have been recognized, at the time, as revolutionary?

Other than Yahwe's birth of course. But that bright star really was a giveaway that we don't get with every monumental change.
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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 19:00   #11
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

it doesnt suprise me in the slightest that you like russell brand. in fact if i could have picked one person on the forums to find him funny it would have been you
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Unread 31 Dec 2006, 19:03   #12
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

2007: what can we expect?

new albums by:

- duran duran
- linkin park
- jennifer lopez (in spanish)
- LL cool J
- good charlotte
- usher
- rihanna
- chris cornell
- kelly rowland
- avril lavigne
- blink 182
- natasha bedingfield
- coldplay
- dr. dre
- 50 cent
- within temptation
- backstreet boys ()
- sean paul
- radiohead
- whitney houston
- maroon 5
- lindsay lohan
- paris hilton
- mariah carey
- christina milian
- korn
- kid rock
- ja rule
- pussycat dolls
- metallica
- missy elliott
- g-unit


some films:

- pirates of the caribbean: at world's end
- spider man 3
- saw 3
- harry potter and the order of the phoenix
- shrek the third
- fantastic four: rise of the silver surfer
- the simpsons
- mr. bean's holiday

cultural revolution, YEA!
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 16:08   #13
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
it doesnt suprise me in the slightest that you like russell brand. in fact if i could have picked one person on the forums to find him funny it would have been you
I don't like his chat show thing, it annoys me (it seems too scripted).

But he makes me laugh when he's a guest on other shows - or on that Big Brother's Little Mouth. That was rather good. I think it's all a question of the setting he's placed in.

Why don't you like him?

Is it because he's successful, good looking and funny? Envy is a terrible thing Deffeh :crymeariver:
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 16:13   #14
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

He's not funny and he sounds like a plank. And Big brother's big mouth is the prime example of that. If you find that funny i think you need a re-education in comedy.
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 19:01   #15
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Well, the world cup was supposed to be fairly big, and I guess it was. Too bad that the general level of football played at the WC was sub-standard.

Also, Deffeh is so right about Russel Brand. He's even more annoying than Benneh.
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 19:32   #16
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
He's not funny and he sounds like a plank.
Quoted for truth.

2006 was dull, but on the bright side Saddam Hussein was not only sentenced to death, but actaully executed too. How f**king awesome is that? Turns out he had an enormous penis, or at the least the coroner doing his autopsy described him as 'well hung'. I have a range of Saddam Hussein t-shirts for sale if anybody's interested. They're a bit tight around the neck, but they hang well.

And I agree with 'All Systems Go' in that '06 was boring and that we should hope for something better from 2007. I simply dont understand WHY somebody wouldn't want to have a better year than they had previously regardless of what the previous year was like. Somebody who's quite happy to wallow away into an eternity of nothingness obviously didn't get what they wanted from Santa and has some 'personal' issues because of this.

Things I'm looking forward to in '07:

-lots of films, to many to mention (although I may edit this out later and add some films if I run out of football to watch and alcohol to drink).
-getting a new job. unemployment ftl.
-Turning 22. (7th Feb btw guys)
-Half Life 2: Episdode 2 (which is really Episode 3, but you really dont want to get me started on that)
-Fm2008. Nuff said.
-Having enough money to buy a PC that can actually play the above games. This one's dying.
-Finding love. There's only so long my personal ads can be ignored for!
-Doing well in PA. 7 Years I've waited to end T100, THIS TIME!!!
-Gettin ma driving license so I can kerb crawl for hookers.

And that's about it for now. Anyway, Happy New Year everyone
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 20:13   #17
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
2006 was dull, but on the bright side Saddam Hussein was not only sentenced to death, but actaully executed too. How f**king awesome is that?
What is so awesome about someone being killed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
man's in humanity to man is a cycle which must be broken not reinforced.
just says it all IMO.
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 21:28   #18
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Not someone.... Saddam :| Do you hear me shouting about anyone else? No. Instead of trying to be a righteous twat on the forums, how about you post something constructive and not pick holes in other people's posts?

And the post from Yahwe no way relates to the Hussein situation. He committed mass genocide and crimes against humanity. He did this for personal reasons; to gain power, to make profits. He was killed for being a bell-end. There's really nothing else to discuss.

Unfortunately at the moment there doesn't seem to be any overwhelming significant development that will make 2007 any greater that its predacessor. But then it's the first of January - so instead of arguing on forums like utter retards lets pool our thoughts on how we think this year will be constructive, as opposed to criticising anyone online for voicing an opinion.

Can we manage that?
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 23:05   #19
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
And the post from Yahwe no way relates to the Hussein situation.
Yes. It does.
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 23:39   #20
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
While nothing "obvious" has happened during 2006 that we have noticed, I expect that in a decade's time or so we'll see innovations which were started in 2006, or were being produced/provided in 2006. Something doesn't have to be started and finished in the same year for it to be noticeable.
I know and I kind of touched upon this with my prediction for the future and the 'more of the same' comment. I probably could (should) have been clearer about this.

I predict (hope) that 2007 will result in a reaction to the stale atmosphere 2006 (and preceeding years). I forsee this to take the form of psychedelia and a more off-the-wall approach to popular culture. Even if I am wrong and something completely different happens I will still be happy as long as something happens.

Quote:
Your examples of Russell Brand (who I actually really enjoy) and Pete Docherty (who i think is pretty talentless but he seems to be very successful) aren't really representative of anything. You seem to say "they have been successful but i don't know if britain is ready for them so we have yet to see if they will be successful" which doesn't really make any sense. No offence dude, but you could have chosen better examples.
I don't mean Britain isn't ready for them, I mean their employers aren't ready for them and I don't suppose either of them are ready for themselves. there is an interest in these two (possibly mostly due to media hype) but the the right format has not yet to be found in which to take advantage of their particular quirks (Brand especially).

Quote:
Some things I noticed in 2006 that I expect will be referred to in future years:
-Jamie Oliver's "Healthy Eating" initiative in schools went from strength to strength (i'm likely to pay more attention to this kind of thing than most of you though, I guess)
If this becomes anything other than a fad will depend on the governments desire to fully support this project with the financial requirements to allow it to continue. I'd be surprised if they lasts.

Quote:
-We supposedly have made some sort of progress in Iraq (although how you want to define progress seems to be pretty subjective)
Like you say, that's debatable. Plus this is also a case 'the same old thing'. So much talk of Iraq, so little being done.

Quote:
-North Korea started some nuclear tests. Again, this could be the beginnings of something more serious - hopefully not.
this will be seen as a landmark of 2006, though I find it difficult to see how it will escalate into anything more, unless they sell their weapon to a terrorist group but I would say that's highly unlikely atm.

Quote:
-The Lib Dems lose what was a pretty good leader (in my humble opinion, although from what dante, sarina and a few others have said, my political views are normally "wrong"), due to alcoholism
Minor.

Quote:
-We lost TOTP
Now you're really getting desperate.


Quote:
-Scotland starts the smoking ban initiative (guernsey did too, actually!!) which I think is a pretty big thing that will affect a large proportion
of the population, whether we are smokers or not
that's rather large but it's hardly some kind of era-defining moment.

Quote:
-Bird Flu is discovered in the UK (hopefully this will not be something we refer back to as the beginnings of something more serious, but who knows)
Again, I'm speculating but I think this will turn into nothing. It's hardly foot and mouth or BSE.

Quote:
-Saddam Hussein is sentenced to death
It's hardly the shooting of JFK.
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 23:43   #21
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
2007: what can we expect?

new albums by:
blink 182
Blink 182 broke up dude.

Quote:
some films:

- pirates of the caribbean: at world's end
- spider man 3
- saw 3
- harry potter and the order of the phoenix
- shrek the third
- fantastic four: rise of the silver surfer
- the simpsons
- mr. bean's holiday

cultural revolution, YEA!
All sequels or made from a 16 year old tv show. Plus, Saw 3 is already out.
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 23:48   #22
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Yes. It does.
The guy deserved to die tbh. How many other ways can I put it? He was not worthy of life, he was an oxygen thief, he just deserved to die. Am I promoting genocide? No, I'm condemning a man who's done more wrong by this world than any other political leader in my generation.

But this isn't a thread about the pro's and cons about the death penalty. And if you're going to reply at least make the effort to explain your stance. Unless of course you do not have one and you're posting simply to come across as morally superior to me. In which case dont bother, you're not, next conversation please.
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Unread 1 Jan 2007, 23:50   #23
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
The guy deserved to die tbh. How many other ways can I put it? He was not worthy of life, he was an oxygen thief, he just deserved to die. Am I promoting genocide? No, I'm condemning a man who's done more wrong by this world than any other political leader in my generation.
Source?
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 01:46   #24
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

I can't remember anything particularly exciting this year. I looked to the past for inspiration. It worked. And if you'll allow me to splice the 18th century with 2006, I particularly enjoyed Mozart's piano symphonies, and if you allow me to splice the mid 20th with 2006 Miles Davis's In A Silent Way was also excellent.

Current news never excites me, but I found the melange of Anglo-Saxon with Norman culture particularly interesting to observe through various encyclopaedias. This years political direction, western at least, didn't spin my windmill; but until I think of a way I can personally, mostly likely within group activity, change it, I won't worry too much about not being able to personally convince Blair he's a dirty tart.

I enjoyed quite a few books this year, mind. Some of those weren't from 2006 though :crymeariver:. I'll make 2007 a magical year for all don't you worry my sweet! Actually can we hang doherty this year? - I'm sure that will somehow provide a wealth of culture that will spurt out from this fine planet's loins like a room full of teenage girls at a Johnny Deep convention, graced by his eye-liner'd holiness Johnny himself.

Good thread; I enjoyed it.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 01:49   #25
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

And don't you remember the last time someone had a cultural revolution!?! The horror.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 03:36   #26
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Not someone.... Saddam :| Do you hear me shouting about anyone else? No. Instead of trying to be a righteous twat on the forums, how about you post something constructive and not pick holes in other people's posts?

And the post from Yahwe no way relates to the Hussein situation. He committed mass genocide and crimes against humanity. He did this for personal reasons; to gain power, to make profits. He was killed for being a bell-end. There's really nothing else to discuss.
Your post was essentially unsupported, rhetorical and devoid of merit, and you got called on it. Then you got pissy because you got called on it. Are you serious?
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 08:12   #27
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
Your post was essentially unsupported, rhetorical and devoid of merit, and you got called on it. Then you got pissy because you got called on it. Are you serious?
I gather that he's not very bright.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 12:36   #28
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Not someone.... Saddam :| Do you hear me shouting about anyone else?
Are you trying to say that Saddam is different to other human beings? No matter what you say, Saddam was a person and therefore he was "someone"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
And the post from Yahwe no way relates to the Hussein situation. He committed mass genocide and crimes against humanity. He did this for personal reasons; to gain power, to make profits. He was killed for being a bell-end. There's really nothing else to discuss.
The post from Yahwe does realte to the Saddam Hussein situation and he made it in another thread referring to Saddam Hussein's execution - you're killing someone for killing people. All that you're doing is sinking to his level (in this case not quite as low).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
The guy deserved to die tbh.
Why do you think that you are in a position to decide who deserves to die and who deserves to live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
No, I'm condemning a man who's done more wrong by this world than any other political leader in my generation.
There are ways of condemning him other than the death sentence.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 12:44   #29
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

I just donated £5 to David Icke`s Legal Defence Fund*.








*I really did.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 13:17   #30
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyirt
I just donated £5 to David Icke`s Legal Defence Fund*.
Why?

Also, isn't "defence" the wrong term in this case? Is he actually facing any sort of prosecution?
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 13:24   #31
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Because I wanted to. http://www.davidicke.com/component/o...page/Itemid,1/
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 13:27   #32
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyirt
Yeah, but that site seems to suggest he is suing someone else for some kind of copyright infringement. "Defence" is stretching it a bit.
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 13:28   #33
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by pyirt
I just donated £5 to David Icke`s Legal Defence Fund
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
In 1999, Icke wrote and published The Biggest Secret: The Book that Will Change the World, in which he identified the extraterrestrial Prison Warders as reptilians from the constellation Draco. [19]They walk erect and appear to be human, living not only on the planets they come from, but also in caverns and tunnels under the earth.

The reptilian group includes many prominent people and practically every world leader from Britain's late Queen Mother to George H.W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Harold Wilson, and Tony Blair. These people are either themselves reptilian, or work for the reptiles as what Icke calls slave-like victims of multiple personality disorder.

"I strongly believe that a small Jewish clique which has contempt for the mass of Jewish people worked with non-Jews to create the First World War, the Russian Revolution, and the Second World War. This Jewish/non-Jewish Elite used the First World War to secure the Balfour Declaration and the principle of the Jewish State of Israel. They then dominated the Versailles Peace Conference and created the circumstances which made the Second World War inevitable. They financed Hitler to power in 1933 and made the funds available for his rearmament."
You gave this guy money?
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Unread 2 Jan 2007, 13:30   #34
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Yep.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 16:57   #35
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Are you trying to say that Saddam is different to other human beings? No matter what you say, Saddam was a person and therefore he was "someone"
Yes I'm trying to say he's different to other human beings? Or do you know a lot of people that kill millions of people and live in a palace? And I wasn't asked whether he was a 'someone' - I was asked if I thought it was awesome someone died. I was just clarifying that I was referring to saddam and by no means feel the same way about anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
The post from Yahwe does realte to the Saddam Hussein situation and he made it in another thread referring to Saddam Hussein's execution - you're killing someone for killing people. All that you're doing is sinking to his level (in this case not quite as low).
I did wonder where the quote emerged from. And erm, how about 'nowhere near as low'? How about 'a million miles away'? And I'm not sinking to any level. I didn't kill the guy, I'm saying I support the decision of those that sentenced him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Why do you think that you are in a position to decide who deserves to die and who deserves to live?
I'm under no illusions I'm in any such position. I do however believe I'm entitled to an opinion and in my opinion the guy did not deserve to see out the rest of his life after all the things he's done. I'm not trying to impose my views on anybody else or suggesting nobody disagree, just that people should respect my views just as they expect me to respect theirs. It's a 2-way system guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
There are ways of condemning him other than the death sentence.

Tell it to the judge, tbfh. I didn't say "hang him", i said "thank god the b*st*rd's dead".

And you all criticise me for my views but every time I've posted in this thread I've expressed my views in a (comparatively) unargumentative way and always largely tried to stay on topic, which is a lot more than I can say for some.

Oh, and criticising my intelligence doesn't offend me in the slightest either Yawhe. Your post should be removed for intentional flamebaiting though...

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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 17:42   #36
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Yes I'm trying to say he's different to other human beings? Or do you know a lot of people that kill millions of people and live in a palace? And I wasn't asked whether he was a 'someone' - I was asked if I thought it was awesome someone died. I was just clarifying that I was referring to saddam and by no means feel the same way about anyone else.
Saddam Hussein was like most of the world's population - the media paint a picture of him as a bloodthirsty monster who kills for fun, and idiots like you believe it.
He got his hands on power, and then did anything that he could to keep it. Most people would have done the same - Shakespear shows this pretty well in MacBeth, I suggest you read it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
I did wonder where the quote emerged from. And erm, how about 'nowhere near as low'? How about 'a million miles away'? And I'm not sinking to any level. I didn't kill the guy, I'm saying I support the decision of those that sentenced him.
Yeah, well he didn't kill all of his victims, he just said that he wanted them dead and his men killed them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Tell it to the judge, tbfh. I didn't say "hang him", i said "thank god the b*st*rd's dead".
That is sinking to his level - you are rejoicing about the death of a human being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 18:13   #37
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

I skimread over a lot of the shit. If you guys are arguing over whether it's a "good" thing that Saddam was executed, then that's a pretty crappy argument.

In the grand scheme of "will it really change anything", then no it won't. He was taken out of power. It might turn him into a martyr figure for some of his supporters, but apart from that I doubt it'd be any different to him being banged up in jail for the rest of his life.

Kenny, while I'll be really hypocritical here (as I do this more often than I'd like to admit), repeating yourself with the same points doesn't really get your point across. If you've made the point once, then you don't need to repeat it. If people are stupid enough to skimread it once, they'll do it again. If people discounted the point once, they'll do it again.

Horn/Kila - stop arguing for the sake of it. ARegardless of whether Kenny believes in the media's hype about Saddam, there must be some truth in it, because he was found guilty in a court of law. Guilty of CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. Which generally means he wasn't a chirpy individual who they should make a Disney musical about.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 18:38   #38
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Regardless of whether Kenny believes in the media's hype about Saddam, there must be some truth in it, because he was found guilty in a court of law.

there seems to be arather big flaw in your argument. Can you see it?
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 18:43   #39
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
there seems to be arather big flaw in your argument. Can you see it?
Is the clue in your crappy signature? :crymeariver:
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 18:58   #40
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

From the point of view of "justice" I'd consider Saddam's death as perfectly acceptable. Whether or not it somehow further corrupts our moral sense of righteousness and increases our bloodlust or something is a different question.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 20:26   #41
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
From the point of view of "justice" I'd consider Saddam's death as perfectly acceptable. Whether or not it somehow further corrupts our moral sense of righteousness and increases our bloodlust or something is a different question.
I don't really see how having him executed was acceptable justice, but that's because of my views on capital (i almost wrote corporal then lololo) punishment. Once he's dead he's unlikely to care about his crimes, or repent for them*.

In fact, being completely naive here, but isn't he Muslim and so therefore is of the view that he is going onto a better place? I'm obviously lumping him into the "he killed people just like those suicide bomber chaps and that was their mentality!" generalisation there, which is very simplistic, but I don't know what his religious orientation or views were.

A "just" punishment, in my view, would just be to give him a cell and the most mundane, dull existence possible. I wouldn't be able to cope with prison simply because I need my mind to be active. I can last for hours on my own thinking about things (NHS hospital waiting rooms will do that to you!) but I need human interaction too. Being killed for some horrible crime I've done would seem like a bit of an easy way out, rather than 50 or so years sitting on my own looking at the same patch of wall.


*(although who knows, now there's this funky proof that there's life after death?! i'm glad i found that out before I snuffed it!).
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 20:37   #42
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
A "just" punishment, in my view, would just be to give him a cell and the most mundane, dull existence possible. I wouldn't be able to cope with prison simply because I need my mind to be active. I can last for hours on my own thinking about things (NHS hospital waiting rooms will do that to you!) but I need human interaction too. Being killed for some horrible crime I've done would seem like a bit of an easy way out, rather than 50 or so years sitting on my own looking at the same patch of wall.
Could an argument not be made that your punishment is more cruel/unjust than just ending his life? Let's say that he was to stay in prison until rehabilitated, in a 12x12 grey concrete room with nothing to do. He doesn't seem to be the type who's going to suddenly repent, hell he took that execution rather well. And it's not going to serve as a worthwhile deterrent to all of the would-be genecidal maniacs, since there probably aren't all that many. It's not like kids aspire to doing it, for example. In such a situation, it is perhaps more humane to just end his life, oxymoronic as that sounds.

It depends on your personal opinion of why imprisonment and capital punishment exist, really. Do you believe that prison should serve as a place to rehabilitate, should simply stop offenders from reoffending (keeping the public 'safer'), or purely as punishment? Or some other thing? Or some combination?


* Note I'm not saying I think he deserved to die or not here, I'm not sure that I have a firm opinion on it since it's a reasonably exceptional circumstance, I'm just throwing stuff out there dudes
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 20:41   #43
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
It depends on your personal opinion of why imprisonment and capital punishment exist, really. Do you believe that prison should serve as a place to rehabilitate, should simply stop offenders from reoffending (keeping the public 'safer'), or purely as punishment? Or some other thing? Or some combination?
I think a lot depends on the crime.

Expecting to rehabilitate a genocidal mass murderer isn't the same as some 18 year old who's smashed a few too many windows in with bricks because his mother has a heroin habit (or whatever).

In terms of Saddam Hussein, I viewed it as punishment. In terms of pedophiles, I'd like it to be rehabilitation, but I think a lot of the time it is used to keep the public safe. In terms of murders, I think it depends on the crime. Manslaughter should be punishment, but murder should be keeping them locked up to keep us safe.

It's not really the kind of question you can define, as there are many different laws for us to break (yahwe spent years learning ALLLLLL about them for us!) and different degrees of breaking them.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 20:50   #44
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I don't really see how having him executed was acceptable justice, but that's because of my views on capital (i almost wrote corporal then lololo) punishment. Once he's dead he's unlikely to care about his crimes, or repent for them*.

In fact, being completely naive here, but isn't he Muslim and so therefore is of the view that he is going onto a better place? I'm obviously lumping him into the "he killed people just like those suicide bomber chaps and that was their mentality!" generalisation there, which is very simplistic, but I don't know what his religious orientation or views were.

A "just" punishment, in my view, would just be to give him a cell and the most mundane, dull existence possible. I wouldn't be able to cope with prison simply because I need my mind to be active. I can last for hours on my own thinking about things (NHS hospital waiting rooms will do that to you!) but I need human interaction too. Being killed for some horrible crime I've done would seem like a bit of an easy way out, rather than 50 or so years sitting on my own looking at the same patch of wall.


*(although who knows, now there's this funky proof that there's life after death?! i'm glad i found that out before I snuffed it!).

It's not about subjective perceptions of what he enjoys. Maybe he has a strangulation fetish and ****ing loved the last few seconds of his life or maybe he has a blank wall fetish and would love being stuck in a jail cell. It's about justice for his crimes. From the perspective of justice it is irrelevant whether he repents or is rehabilitated or becomes the world's greatest internet comedian. To treat Saddam fairly for his crimes could quite reasonably include the death penalty. He is directly responsible for the slaughter of thousands of innocents. You can have some "non-justice" based objection to the death penalty, and we're not exactly running short on them, but the statement that nobody ever deserves to die for their crimes cannot be held to be an objective one in any sense of the word.
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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 22:22   #45
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
your signature is gay.


And I'm glad he's dead because it offended me that he was alive. It was offensive to think that any government should have to pay out on maintaining him while he was in prison. "You've been a bad man, now go have your state-provided dinner" just didn't cut it imo.


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Unread 3 Jan 2007, 22:24   #46
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

To be honest I really doubt that would have been his future for a significant length of time in an Iraqi prison.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 08:20   #47
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
but the statement that nobody ever deserves to die for their crimes cannot be held to be an objective one in any sense of the word.
Are you planning to support this statement? Or are you just planning on creating a new religion?
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 10:46   #48
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Horn/Kila - stop arguing for the sake of it. ARegardless of whether Kenny believes in the media's hype about Saddam, there must be some truth in it, because he was found guilty in a court of law. Guilty of CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. Which generally means he wasn't a chirpy individual who they should make a Disney musical about.
I agree, he was a **** who I hated with a passion (my dad was on a "wanted: dead or alive" list when he was in power ). I was merely arguing that capital punishment is not the right way to punish him and that regardless of the picture that the media paint of him, he was still a human being and acted as 90% of people would act if they were in his position. Kenny seems to have been brainwashed and thinks that he is some kind of monster who kills people because he drinks their blood with his meals instead of wine. He killed to maintain his position, I think my comparrison to Shakespear's MacBeth was fairly accurate - MacBeth was a decent bloke before he siezed power, but then did everything possible including getting his best friend killed in order to keep it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
In fact, being completely naive here, but isn't he Muslim and so therefore is of the view that he is going onto a better place? I'm obviously lumping him into the "he killed people just like those suicide bomber chaps and that was their mentality!" generalisation there, which is very simplistic, but I don't know what his religious orientation or views were.
The suicide bombers believe that they are going straight to heaven and will get 100 virgins or whatever because according to the Qur'an, it is what you get if you die in Jihad (a holy war fought in the name of Islam supported by Islamic authorities). And Al-qaeda are waging a Jihad against America etc. (despite Al-qaeda not having any sovereignty in the Islamic religion and not having any official support of Islamic authorities) so when they commit suicide and kill "their enemies" (citizens) they think that they are dieing in an Islamic war and will go to Heaven and get 100 virgins queueing up for them. Saddam didn't fight or die fighting in Jihad so he doesn't get his 100 virgins!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It's not about subjective perceptions of what he enjoys. Maybe he has a strangulation fetish and ****ing loved the last few seconds of his life
Every man gets an orgasm when hanged. I'm not sure why, but hanging causes you to get an orgasm and apparantely strangulation gives you more intense orgasms. This is what my politics teacher has told us, she also mentioned that Eton pupils commonly practice it in groups :crymeariver:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
And I'm glad he's dead because it offended me that he was alive. It was offensive to think that any government should have to pay out on maintaining him while he was in prison. "You've been a bad man, now go have your state-provided dinner" just didn't cut it imo.
It's more expensive to kill him than to sentence him to life in prison dude, and he wouldn't have survived very long in prison anyway.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 11:21   #49
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

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Originally Posted by _Kila_
he was still a human being and acted as 90% of people would act if they were in his position.
I'm not too sure about this. If you mean would act the same as he did if they had exactly the same upbringing of him, exactly the same life experiences and maybe even his DNA then sure, maybe - but that's a bit of a tautology. I'm pretty sure that most people wouldn't have been so cruel or murderous - and in fact, I doubt most people would have got into the position he was in - getting into power requires certain talents most don't possess.

This is not to say he was some kind of monster - indeed on reading how he acted during his execution I actually had a mild respect for Saddam, but that doesn't mean much. No, he wasn't some blood drinking maniac (at least, afaik) but so what? We don't have to be consumed with hate or rage in order to think executing someone has some utility.

There is a curious logic among some (like the British government) who will happily lock people in a room until they die, put them in a prison where they will be murdered by their fellow prisoners or bomb targets killing dozens of civilians at a time and think this is fine and dandy. But these same people are horrified by pulling the trigger themselves up close and personal. It strikes me as curiously gutless. Of course, there are arguments like Tomkat's that we should want him to suffer more by keeping him alive, but I'm not a fan of such thinking.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 11:31   #50
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Re: 2007: A Cultural Revolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
I agree, he was a **** who I hated with a passion (my dad was on a "wanted: dead or alive" list when he was in power ).
You mean Saddam was in power, right? Or was your dad the dictator of a small country before moving into North-West London?



Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Saddam didn't fight or die fighting in Jihad so he doesn't get his 100 virgins!
Yeah - no, I knew about the Qu'ran thing. I didn't know what Saddam's views were though - did he view anything he did as "for the greater good"?



Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Every man gets an orgasm when hanged. I'm not sure why, but hanging causes you to get an orgasm and apparantely strangulation gives you more intense orgasms. This is what my politics teacher has told us, she also mentioned that Eton pupils commonly practice it in groups :crymeariver:
Uhm.

It's known that you can strangle yourself while masturbating to achieve a more intense orgasm, due to the lack of oxygen in your body. I don't see how being hanged could bring about an orgasm spontaneously though.
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