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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:04   #101
pablissimo
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
School equips you to deal with the world, not with getting a job
There's been a lot of crap in this thread, but this is just bollocks.

School equips you to be able to do exams, and perhaps learn how to play hockey on the side. Most of my 'equipping' for the real world happened through trial and error after leaving school, not as a result of some knowledge imbued during my time there.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:06   #102
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
We don't use Excel as an introduction to programming principles, we use it as a tool to analyse data and statistics.

What would be the point in teaching students about programming, when only about 1% (if that) would choose that in their careers?
Because I dont really care about career training as such; school shouldnt be primarilly vocational. Programming should be taught both because its an extremely useful skill that will be worth knowing almost regardless of what you end up doing, and because (properly done) its an extension of thought that is worth learning purely for the mental training it provides (namely the ability to organise your thoughts into a deterministic pattern, and the experience of translating abstract ideas that you just have a feeling for into well-defined algorithms). If you dont understand algorithms and their implementation then you probably dont understand maths.

In any case, the idea that only 1% will use programming in their career is silly. if you use a computer as part of your job then programming skills will be useful.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:12   #103
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
If they aren't made aware of Excel and its capabilities, how will they know that they could/should use it?
Making someone aware of it's capabilities in (for example) a voluntary Computer Club type affair is a bit different from "forcing someone to learn it" which is what I was talking about.

Quote:
You can't just wave your hand vaguely at the different software on offer and expect them to pick it up and use it as and when they need to, without showing them what it does.
Did I say you shouldn't demonstrate to software to those interested? Although, generally people should be encouraged to look into these things themselves - being reliant on being shown how something work seems quite a bad habit. I notice it in my colleagues - unless they've had formal training in something they'll refuse to believe they can understand anything. Needless to say somethings requires instructions and these may well be best delivered in a classroom environment. None of this has anything to do with what I said originally though.
Quote:
Also it's not really absurd seeing as most office jobs require you to use it at some level
I agree Excel is a very important tool in the modern office. Since I'm asked at least forty excel related questions a day at work, believe me I know this.

My point is if you're delivering lessons like this to an unreceptive audience only a very small proportion of 11-12 year olds in that audience will benefit. Maybe you'll turn 20% of them round, 60% won't absorb anything, but wouldn't have ever looked anyway and the remaining 20% you're probably making them despise spreadsheets forever when actually they might have found them quite interesting otherwise if/when they discovered them.

I'd also doubt you need (unlike languages) you need a four-five year continuous stint to make you competent at Excel. A couple of my relatives started using computers for the first time when they were in their 60's actually picked up things quicker than I would have thought. Continuous exposure and a good reason are all that's needed. Children who were otherwise proficient with computers (even just in terms of typing, using interfaces, clicking on things - skills they could get from games in most instances) wouldn't really suffer if they didn't have Excel training until six months before leaving school. If you're going bore 11 year olds about computer stuff which will one day benefit them they'd benefit more from typing lessons, how to use a search engine effectively and learning about the principles behind managing data/information generally.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:15   #104
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
He does have a point though; in some ways, your post was arguing against a completely opposite position to the one that I, for one, hold.
You didn't actually state your opinion (or if you did, I missed it). Your viewpoint was just "not agreeing with tomkat".



Also; nod and Dante did make the point of "school should be about preparing you for jobs and they don't do it very well, presently":

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I'd scrap around 90% of the current highschool curriculum because its completely worthless; an education shouldnt consist of memorising 8 hours a day worth of contextless trivia to be forgotten after the relevant exam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
In adult life - as an employee - you are afforded a reasonable amount of privacy when it comes to personal appraisals, salary, and so on. Now I do not think much of that is necessary among adults because we should all be old enough to handle these things maturely. But what's bewildering is we expect the learning process to be a public affair for children - to the point where almost every single activity you do you are scored for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Either the job is trivial (in which case I doubt qualifications will be required) or it's non-trivial and there'll be an interview process which is vastly more important than what you have in terms of certificates.

If you see someone has a GCSE or O-Level in French, you can't really draw any conclusions at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
There will be some people who wouldn't learn in the class-room, and would play football or "mess around" all day instead of reading / doing other work. And guess what - that's OK too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Sitting down and trying to force someone to learn something like Excel is an utterly absurd exercise. If they're not interested - why bother? I find it difficult to believe that many people will learn despite their own willpower. As Nod mentions - not many people retain much of their French/German GCSEs - despite the fact most us spent at least a couple of hours a week for three or four years on the subject.


My point is that regardless of what the subject is, it shows their willingness to learn and how quickly they adapt to new ideas and concepts (be it trigonometry or what a chemical compound is). Those that excel are those that are more motivated and will put more effort into their work (generally).
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:18   #105
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
You didn't actually state your opinion (or if you did, I missed it). Your viewpoint was just "not agreeing with tomkat".
Given that you said that I seemed to be stating that schools should prepare us for jobs and whatnot, specifically referring to me by name, I think that's your problem, not mine. Phang and I certainly seem to think that this applies to nod as well. So does nod, for that matter. Dante is similar, but there's no smoking gun quote - except maybe the thing about football, but you seem to think that is supporting the opposite position, so it wouldn't be much good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nod
Because I dont really care about career training as such; school shouldnt be primarilly vocational.
What you're doing here is an example of false dichotomy. Rejecting learning by rote things that aren't useful for future employment isn't implicitly supporting learning (by rote or otherwise) things that are necessarily useful for future employment.

How you got "nod wants everyone to learn just vocational stuff" from his post about teaching people the beauty of mathematics is very, very confusing to me.

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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:21   #106
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
My point is that regardless of what the subject is, it shows their willingness to learn and how quickly they adapt to new ideas and concepts (be it trigonometry or what a chemical compound is). Those that excel are those that are more motivated and will put more effort into their work (generally).
People are more willing to learn interesting things than reams of ****ing garbage though.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:25   #107
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
School equips you to be able to do exams, and perhaps learn how to play hockey on the side. Most of my 'equipping' for the real world happened through trial and error after leaving school, not as a result of some knowledge imbued during my time there.
You didn't learn any social skills at all during school? This is a false view as there is a clear difference between home-school children and children who go to school, emotionally and mentally.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Programming should be taught both because its an extremely useful skill that will be worth knowing almost regardless of what you end up doing
Are you serious?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:25   #108
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
My point is if you're delivering lessons like this to an unreceptive audience only a very small proportion of 11-12 year olds in that audience will benefit. Maybe you'll turn 20% of them round, 60% won't absorb anything, but wouldn't have ever looked anyway and the remaining 20% you're probably making them despise spreadsheets forever when actually they might have found them quite interesting otherwise if/when they discovered them.
This was actually the point I made last page. The problem is engaging them to enjoy it and realise how it might be useful. However, at 11 there isn't a whole lot of things you're interested in where Excel could be useful. It's only in the next 7-8 years you start to realise it can help you enormously.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'd also doubt you need (unlike languages) you need a four-five year continuous stint to make you competent at Excel.
It isn't a four-five year stint. It's about 5-6 hours in year 7 (11 yr olds), year 8 (12 yr olds) and year 9 (13 yr olds). That's 18 hours in total on the subject, while at school. Years 10-11 cover it in coursework.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
they'd benefit more from typing lessons
4-5 weeks in year 7, alongside Word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
how to use a search engine effectively
2-4 lessons over 2 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
and learning about the principles behind managing data/information generally.
5-6 lessons in year 9.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:28   #109
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
This was actually the point I made last page. The problem is engaging them to enjoy it and realise how it might be useful. However, at 11 there isn't a whole lot of things you're interested in where Excel could be useful.
Then why teach it to them then? It's not like you need a solid grounding in Excel for other things that you'd be teaching.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:32   #110
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Then why teach it to them then? It's not like you need a solid grounding in Excel for other things that you'd be teaching.
Because come year 10 (14-15 years old), they will need it across most subjects in the curriculum. I've made this point about 4 times already.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:33   #111
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Also; nod and Dante did make the point of "school should be about preparing you for jobs and they don't do it very well, presently":
What? Ive never said anything like that; pretty much every post in my thread has been explicitly exposed to this, unless you mean 'preparing people for jobs' in the most general way possible (in the sense that smart people will generally be able to get things done better than stupid people). I dont support vocational training at all.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:37   #112
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
What? Ive never said anything like that; pretty much every post in my thread has been explicitly exposed to this, unless you mean 'preparing people for jobs' in the most general way possible (in the sense that smart people will generally be able to get things done better than stupid people). I dont support vocational training at all.
What do you mean by "90% of schooling is useless" then? Useless in terms of what?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:40   #113
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
You didn't learn any social skills at all during school?
None of it taught, with the exception being through whatever disciplinary system there was in place, and most of my behavioural limits were probably set by my parents anyway. I'd have gotten the equivalent social readiness training had I skipped school entirely and just gone to Scouts twice a week.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:41   #114
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
What do you mean by "90% of schooling is useless" then? Useless in terms of what?
creating intelligent people capable of critical thought who have a wide range of genuine interests, spiritual development, fostering a sense of world-openness, whatever standard you want to use really.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:43   #115
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
creating intelligent people capable of critical thought who have a wide range of genuine interests, spiritual development, fostering a sense of world-openness, whatever standard you want to use really.
I want to use the standard "people who will help our country's economy by being hard working and rewarded for being motivated and putting in more effort than the competition".
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:47   #116
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Because come year 10 (14-15 years old), they will need it across most subjects in the curriculum. I've made this point about 4 times already.
So why not teach it to them then?

Also, looking through the thread, all (well, closer to both) the times you've talked about Excel the program you've been saying how useless it is for them at that age.

Quote:
How can you explain this to kids though? I mean I teach them how to use Excel from year 7 and it's entirely useless and ****ing dull to them at that age.
being a fine example. Your specific point, in fact, seems to have been that it's easier to teach things to people when they understand how it will be useful.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:48   #117
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I want to use the standard "people who will help our country's economy by being hard working and rewarded for being motivated and putting in more effort than the competition".
The current education system doesnt encourage this at all, in fact it does the opposite.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:53   #118
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
So why not teach it to them then?
er...

what...?

We do teach it to them...

They get their introduction to it in 5 or so lessons in year 7...

I have mentioned THAT about 4 times also.

Do you read my posts or just skimread them and find one or two points to disagree with for the sake of it?



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Also, looking through the thread, all (well, closer to both) the times you've talked about Excel the program you've been saying how useless it is for them at that age.
It's an INTRODUCTION to Excel. It'd be a ****ing pain to suddenly decide to use the program with them at GCSE, as you'd have to teach them it and then get them to implement it within their coursework. If they already have the required skills, it is much easier to slot the work into the scheme of work.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:54   #119
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The current education system doesnt encourage this at all, in fact it does the opposite.
How?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:56   #120
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Because come year 10 (14-15 years old), they will need it across most subjects in the curriculum. I've made this point about 4 times already.
er

"it's not useless, because you need it do other useless things"

in a thread about completely replacing the curriculum this isn't a strong argument
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 12:57   #121
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
How?
Because most people end up leaving school with the idea that learning is boring, that intellectual pursuits and art are less fun than football, that analytical reading destroys pleasurei, that hard work involves drudgery, that merit isnt rewarded, that maths/science/music/whatever is 'not for them', that theres no difference between understanding a subject and being able to pass an exam, that rewards should be external rather than internal, and countless other pieces of nonsense.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:00   #122
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
"it's not useless, because you need it do other useless things"
So having a basic knowledge of Excel is useless?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:02   #123
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

You know Tomkat, that avatar of yours is really starting to annoy me. Just thought I'd let you know.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:03   #124
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
So having a basic knowledge of Excel is useless?
if you're not trolling, you really are a cretin.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:05   #125
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
er...

what...?

We do teach it to them...
You've attributed the wrong emphasis to then. Would "Why not teach it to them then then?" have been clearer? It would certainly have been less aesthetically pleasing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Do you read my posts or just skimread them and find one or two points to disagree with for the sake of it?
Considering you still haven't replied to many of my posts which directly address things you say, the one at 12:18 being a notable one, I find this hilarious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
It'd be a ****ing pain to suddenly decide to use the program with them at GCSE, as you'd have to teach them it and then get them to implement it within their coursework.
Whilst I will admit that at my school the "introduction to programs you use in IT" section of the IT GCSE course was before the course started, the two facts that it was done the summer before and that we spent 99% of our time pissing around during the actual course it self suggest to me that it would be plausible to teach it at the start of said IT course. Given that these people are studying IT, you'd hope it would also limit the number of people who would reject doing it because they don't know what it's for.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:07   #126
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Because most people end up leaving school with the idea that learning is boring
Learning IS boring at that age. I honestly believe that no matter what you taught them, however you taught them, they'd still rather be messing around with their friends playing video games or football than in the classroom. It doesn't matter how it's taught or what you're teaching.

It's a maturity thing, not an educational thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
that intellectual pursuits and art are less fun than football
Yeah but that's down to our culture (especially the emphasis on football) and doesn't really have anything to do with school.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
that analytical reading destroys pleasure
I agree here. GCSE English completely ruined Shakespeare, Frankenstein, Lord of the Flies and war poetry for me. I loved English language though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
that hard work involves drudgery
For lots of jobs; it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
that merit isnt rewarded
Not true. Most schools have awards and merits for people who do well. My school, for example, has "Merit points" that you put in their planners for KS3 (years 7-9) and when they get a certain number they get a reward. They also have stickers (which are suprisingly effective for motivating kids, even at age 13-14). The older ones can be rewarded with sweets/chocolate/skip-the-queue-at-lunch. Lots of schools have these kind of rewards in place. Even just positive praise is actively encouraged and is a reinforcer for learning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
that theres no difference between understanding a subject and being able to pass an exam
Exams are based on knowledge/understanding of a subject, but I see your point.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:08   #127
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
maybe you should sit in on some English classes!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
are you some kind of idiot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
if you're not trolling, you really are a cretin.

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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:13   #128
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Exams are based on knowledge/understanding of a subject, but I see your point.
Someone doesn't teach GCSE physics!
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:13   #129
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Whilst I will admit that at my school the "introduction to programs you use in IT" section of the IT GCSE course was before the course started, the two facts that it was done the summer before and that we spent 99% of our time pissing around during the actual course it self suggest to me that it would be plausible to teach it at the start of said IT course. Given that these people are studying IT, you'd hope it would also limit the number of people who would reject doing it because they don't know what it's for.
Because it isn't the job of the Science, Maths, Geography, History or whichever other subjects require data analysis for their GCSE coursework to teach it. Years 10 & 11 are crammed enough without taking them through Microsoft Excel 101. So ICT is taught to them for Key Stage 3. Then when they get to Key Stage 4 (GCSE) they are equipped to use it.

My concern is that they'd be better equipped if they learnt more while using it. To learn more while using it, you need to adapt the curriculum so it engages them. To engage them, you need to think of things they'd be interested in (such as my example of inputting scores from the premier league and seeing how cell relations change the values).
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:16   #130
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Also; nod and Dante did make the point of "school should be about preparing you for jobs and they don't do it very well, presently":
None of the quotes you reproduce even imply that was my point. Education should NOT be about preparing for jobs. I do mention jobs in my posts but they are mainly analogies or to simply show that school doesn't even do what it claims to do. Education should be about an individual exploring their own creative and intellectual pursuits, not some cost-saving strategy for corporations who can't be bothered to train their staff.

The idea that Nod is for vocational education is even more ridiculous since he's so evidently against the idea and has made that clear about a thousand times over the last three to four years, let alone this thread.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:32   #131
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
"people in glass houses"
that's so nearly a burn, the only problem is you've been demonstrably shit throughout the thread, so its not.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 13:36   #132
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I'd kick you in the shins, but the closest I can get is negrepping you
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 14:28   #133
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Phang
that's so nearly a burn, the only problem is you've been demonstrably shit throughout the thread, so its not.
As a passive follower of this discussion I can say that your only contribution in here has been acting like a goddamn cheerleader in favour of your internet heroes.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 14:37   #134
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I think that the thread has reached the point where the question should not be "what children should be taught in school" but more like "what children should be taught at home", since it is pretty obvious that by the time they get to school, not much can be done about their already established behavior patterns.
so are healthy family values and a good decent upbringing a mere myth in our shitty post-modern society where kids don't hold anything sacred anymore?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 14:43   #135
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Learning IS boring at that age. I honestly believe that no matter what you taught them, however you taught them, they'd still rather be messing around with their friends playing video games or football than in the classroom.
This isn't always true. You just have to teach it right. I've read more about this when you're really young but basically things like doing crosswords, puzzle mazes and other similar game types which increase synaptic connections form the basis later on in life for the people who "enjoy" learning. Your mind has to be set up to cope with it first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
so are healthy family values and a good decent upbringing a mere myth in our shitty post-modern society where kids don't hold anything sacred anymore?
I don't think forcing particular values on kids is even vaguely helpful, nor is holding things sacred necessary. What is necessary is to develop the understanding required to know why you should respect certain things. This is what we should aim to make children capable of from very early on.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 14:55   #136
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I don't think forcing particular values on kids is even vaguely helpful, nor is holding things sacred necessary. What is necessary is to develop the understanding required to know why you should respect certain things. This is what we should aim to make children capable of from very early on.
so let's change family values into just moral values?
either way, all that starts at home, with the parents and if that is done right then schooling should no longer be that big a problem.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 15:02   #137
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Well, it's very much a two pronged system. Children won't reach their full potential if they're just wasting time in school being taught mind-numbingly boring drivel no matter how good their formative years at home are. What sort of moral values are you talking about though?
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 15:12   #138
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

like you know its wrong to ask someone for their money and stab them if they fail to comply.
or on a more practical approach to know you don't need to hang out with the bullies in school or bully others yourself in order to feel cool or socially accepted.

to "know better" i guess.
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Unread 16 Aug 2007, 15:23   #139
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo
I think that the thread has reached the point where the question should not be "what children should be taught in school" but more like "what children should be taught at home", since it is pretty obvious that by the time they get to school, not much can be done about their already established behavior patterns.
so are healthy family values and a good decent upbringing a mere myth in our shitty post-modern society where kids don't hold anything sacred anymore?
It depends what they are taught in school.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 00:56   #140
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

I would favour a broader, more varied syllabus actively involving and encouraging individual inquiry; more choice given to students, earlier; more teachers and smaller classes.

I think more emphasis, rather than less, should be placed on vocation, by which I mean something closer resembling a 'spiritual calling' or 'inclination' than a particular job or profession. I would encourage introspection and self-awareness. Teachers should, in part, try to make children aware of what they are good at and what they are not so good at; both are positive things if handled sympathetically. Children should be eager to use their talents.

Not sure how I'd try and solve the discipline problem. Needless to say, I don't think a higher concentration of programming or optional attendance would do the trick. Its roots are probably in the family rather than the current educational system.

edit: Oh, and as for what should be taught. I think it's not far off now, subject-wise. I'd probably introduce Philosophy more conspicuously, into RE or something similar. I'd favour a bit more poetry in English classes, but obviously better taught. I'd definitely scrap the curriculum or make it more expansive and less constrictive. The biggest problem is that teaching in general has become too systematic and methodical.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 10:21   #141
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What sort of moral values are you talking about though?
The first school I taught as was an all-boys Roman Catholic one in South London. To go there, the boys had to "prove" (by getting a signed signature from the priest) that they attended church with their parents every Sunday.

As a teacher, we didn't have to be Catholic (although it helped), but just to follow and believe in the ethos of Catholicism and its values. In a way, it was really nice. The values were pretty much "don't be a shit human being" in that stealing, lying, cheating were all very much frowned upon.

The ensuing result was that although the school was in South London, the behaviour there was much much better than in similar schools in the area. The boys had a clear sense of right and wrong, and I heard of quite a few examples where a badly behaved boy would be taken to the Head and by simply being told what he'd done wrong, would almost break down in tears. The families behind the boys had a lot more strength when it came to "phoning the parents to report misbehaviour" also.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 10:23   #142
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Boogster
edit: Oh, and as for what should be taught. I think it's not far off now, subject-wise. I'd probably introduce Philosophy more conspicuously, into RE or something similar.
The school I'm at currently does Religious Studies as a GCSE. Because it wasn't very successful, they've revamped it as "Philosophy and Ethics". Essentially it's a very similar study, but it covers simple philosophical questions and how each religion deals with them. It's (hopefully) going to be a lot more useful and interesting for them, but we'll have to wait and see!
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 10:32   #143
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
The first school I taught as was an all-boys Roman Catholic one in South London. To go there, the boys had to "prove" (by getting a signed signature from the priest) that they attended church with their parents every Sunday.
Couldn't they take it as a matter of faith?
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 10:39   #144
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
As a teacher, we didn't have to be Catholic (although it helped), but just to follow and believe in the ethos of Catholicism and its values. In a way, it was really nice. The values were pretty much "don't be a shit human being" in that stealing, lying, cheating were all very much frowned upon.
As well as contraceptives and homosexuality. But as long as the sexually-repressed disease spreaders are well behaved then it's ok.

Quote:
The ensuing result was that although the school was in South London, the behaviour there was much much better than in similar schools in the area. The boys had a clear sense of right and wrong, and I heard of quite a few examples where a badly behaved boy would be taken to the Head and by simply being told what he'd done wrong, would almost break down in tears. The families behind the boys had a lot more strength when it came to "phoning the parents to report misbehaviour" also.
Can this kind of submissive human being ever grow up to be fully emotionally stable? How old were these children anyway?
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 10:49   #145
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Tomkat's idea of well-rounded human beings seems to be a little bizzare.
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 11:00   #146
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Tomkat's idea of well-rounded human beings seems to be a little bizzare.
I worry that producing broadly unquestioning, obedient drones for the workforce seems a little, you know. Commie.

You hear, TK?
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Unread 17 Aug 2007, 11:06   #147
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Hey man I only became a teacher so I could tell 30 people at a time to SHUT UP AND LISTEN TO ME while I got to talk and talk and listen to the sounds of my beautiful voice.
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Unread 3 Sep 2007, 16:25   #148
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
As well as contraceptives and homosexuality. But as long as the sexually-repressed disease spreaders are well behaved then it's ok.



Can this kind of submissive human being ever grow up to be fully emotionally stable? How old were these children anyway?
In Birmingham like many other major cities, we have quite a lot of Catholic Schools.

You either went to a King Edwards VI or a Cardinal Wiseman any other school and you were ****ed. The King Edwards were the cream of the crop, the Catholic schools whilst they took in kids from very rough estates such as Great Barr, Kingstanding, Chelmsley Wood areas what you found was they managed to get better grades than say another high school next door.

I don't think it was down to faith, like Tomkat said it was probably down to knowing the difference between right and wrong and ultimately respect. Oh you didn't need to be irish catholic to go to these schools either, but it helped.

The reason why King Edward VIs were so good in Birmingham was/is because of respect. From day one you are put in your place, no shit, no niceness. They bring you up on excellence. If you are shit at maths, then you are moved down a set. You are no longer in set 2, you are in set 3, heck you could drop down to set 4 which is really shit and then people will laugh at you.

If you are crap at P.E. you can't be in the A group, you have to be in the B group who are so shit they play the girls at rounders.*

I say bring back beating. Sod the Human Rights, kids aren't human until they hit 18.

*Oh before someone rolls in with a witty quote slash comment highlighting the PE thing, no I wasn't fat at school, no I wasn't in the B Group, yes I played for England in basketball and represented my school and county in several sports. Also I was never in set 3 for anything, never would, never will. The lowest I ever got was set 2, and even then I worked my way back up to the god squad in set 1.
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Unread 3 Sep 2007, 19:35   #149
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

That never happened, you have changed the story horn.

:edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Now once again I don't want to brag, but my friends are a mixed bunch, some have been in prison, some still are. Some are scary from just looking at them, perhaps most importantly we are like brothers. If one of us is in trouble we are all in trouble. Within ten minutes 4 of my mates were there. We got in and drove around looking for them.

We are what we called "tooled up" I will leave that one to your imagination. We didn't find them, I just got dropped off home.
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Unread 3 Sep 2007, 19:47   #150
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Re: What Should be Taught in Schools?

How exactly do your last two posts help your argument?
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