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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 05:06   #1
Phang
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American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

At home, we get the benefits of ntl cable tv. Since they got bought out by virgin, that means no sky. Instead, the Hallmark channel. I don't mind; Five consecutive hours of Law and Order every night bookended by House is great fun.

Anyway, Law and Order. It's cheesy and can be intensely moralistic, but it's great brain-off TV. Better than Diagnosis Murder (which also appears on Hallmark twice a day). As with CSI, there are three varieties of Law and Order; Criminal Intent, SVU, and vanilla.

Vanilla Law and Order has a cast of six characters, three for the 'Law' half - two detectives and a lieutenant - and three for the 'Order' half - the DA, the Assistant DA, and the Executive Assistant DA. For the last five seasons, the DA has been a minor character, one Arthur Branch, played by someone who I assumed to be a low-grade character actor.

This low-grade character actor is a man named Fred Thompson. On May 30, he quit the show. I discovered this earlier today, and it was the first piece of news I'd heard associated with the man. I hadn't given him much thought. More fool me. For the benefit of those equally as ignorant and European as I, why was this foolish of me?

This is why.

This man has spent four years in a bit-part role on a notable but not adored TV show. Before that, he was a lobbyist and a senator. He was also - thanks, wikipedia - part of the Scooter Libby defence fund, surely a dazzling bright spot on anyone's CV.

He is pro-war in Iraq, pro-war in Iran. He is pro-life, pro-gun, and as supportive of free trade as he is angered by free movement of labour. An outspoken federalist, he naturally voted yes to DOMA (and the Fourteenth Amendment could, of course, go **** itself. He also voted no on including gays in hate crime and employment discrimination laws). He wants more church in our schools, fewer flag-burners, and disputes human influence in global warming, while voting against renewable energy. In the Senate he voted to restrict death penalty appeals; he voted for school vouchers and abstinence education and against increasing the education budget. He voted to cap foreign aid at $12bn, voted no to nuclear disarmament...

This mighty figure of a man has some interesting statistics for those of us not following contemporary US politics.

Primary polls?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
Rasmussen Reports Poll July 22-29, 2007 Rudy Giuliani 25%, Fred Thompson 25%, Mitt Romney 12%, John McCain 11%
Harris Interactive Poll July 6-13, 2007 Fred Thompson 29%, Rudy Giuliani 28%, John McCain 17%, Mitt Romney 9%, Newt Gingrich 6%, Tom Tancredo 3%, Sam Brownback 2%, Duncan Hunter 2%, Ron Paul 1%, Mike Huckabee 1%, Tommy Thompson 1%, Chuck Hagel 1%, Jim Gilmore 0%
And in overall head-to-heads?
Quote:
Rasmussen Reports Poll July 30-31, 2007 Hillary Clinton 45% Fred Thompson 46%
George Washington University Battleground Poll July 15-18, 2007 Hillary Clinton 47% Fred Thompson 45%
polls move, of course. The election is more than a year away, the primaries aren't for months, and the samples are small enough that you have to collate different poll data fairly studiously. But he's consistently coming in second to Giuliani, and not a distant second. This strange man, this wonderful caricature both of the ridiculous despotism of the Bush White House and the actor-to-office mechanism the US seems fond of, might just become President.

And here I was, dismissing him as another damning indictment of American TV drama. As it happens, he's actually a damning indictment of America!
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:16   #2
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

It seems concerning until you ask the question, 'How different is he to the current Commander-In-Chief?' at which point the answer raises far more concerns.

I really want to see the sitcom now where the US Senator/struggling actor who by day campaigns for radical Right-Wing policies and by night builds an acting portfolio starring in Left-Wing propaganda movies and adverts whilst trying to raise 2.4 children!
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:31   #3
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

I've always wondered what it is with the strange numbers of children. Like, 2.4. Does that mean two boys and one girl, or two kids and a dog (I typoed "god" first but that'd be harsh), or maybe one regular kid and a retard (counts for 1.4 in what comes to difficulties raising)?
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:35   #4
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

I think it comes from the fact that at some point in time (possibly the 1950s) the average household had 2.4 children and became symbolic of the nuclear family.

Of course that may all have been something I made up in my head many years ago and could have zero relation to reality in any size, way, shapre or form.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:39   #5
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

They should revise it. Globally speaking, it shouldn't be more than 1.7 or we'll run out of room here, that is, if the global warming doesn't fry us first.

Generally, though, gallups and polls pre-elections are silly, misleading, and actually they've researched that the gallup results may actually influence the real voting results, which just makes the whole thing even more perverse. It's not like the Americans could ever (at least not unless something really dramatic happens) elect an intelligent president anyways. It'd just be better, if they'd move on to a more left solution and rip some power off the bloke.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 11:50   #6
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang

He is pro-war in Iraq, pro-war in Iran. He is pro-life, pro-gun, and as supportive of free trade as he is angered by free movement of labour. An outspoken federalist, he naturally voted yes to DOMA (and the Fourteenth Amendment could, of course, go **** itself. He also voted no on including gays in hate crime and employment discrimination laws). He wants more church in our schools, fewer flag-burners, and disputes human influence in global warming, while voting against renewable energy. In the Senate he voted to restrict death penalty appeals; he voted for school vouchers and abstinence education and against increasing the education budget. He voted to cap foreign aid at $12bn, voted no to nuclear disarmament...
You do know that at least half these things are good right? Im not really sure what your point is; a politician runs for office with a few good ideas and a lot of really bad ones, news at 10. If you were to make a list of all the stupidness that major British politicians support then it would be just as incriminating.

but yeah america sux lol

Quote:
actor-to-office mechanism
I'm not sure whats wrong with this either; career politicians and civil service types are precisely the last people I would want in the upper levels of government.


edit: Also you know as well as I do that he doesnt have any chance of winning the primaries; this is the same sort of silly sensationalism you get whenver the BNP get an extra percentage of the vote in some local election.

Last edited by Nodrog; 3 Aug 2007 at 12:08.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 12:09   #7
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
You do know that at least half these things are good right?
What do you mean by 'good'?

And which ones anyway?
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 12:36   #8
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
He is pro-gun, supportive of free trade. He also voted no on [expanding] hate crime and employment discrimination laws. In the Senate he voted for school vouchers and against increasing the education budget. He voted to cap foreign aid at $12bn, voted no to nuclear disarmament.

Last edited by Nodrog; 3 Aug 2007 at 12:43.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 12:57   #9
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
assuming this guy isn't gunning for fundamental reform in the educational system
It depends what you mean by fundamental reform; its obviously not going to be anywhere near as radical as my ideal changes, but school vouchers are a really good idea.

Quote:
can you also maybe give us a little taster of your views surrounding hat3r crimes pls.
dont h8
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 13:08   #10
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

You arent a person to me horn.

What do you think of that.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 13:26   #11
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
He is pro-life
So are most Americans, with a majority favouring a ban on partial birth abortion. This is in line with Thompson's stance that late-stage abortions should be illegal while early-stage abortions should not be legislated against which is hardly a fringe standpoint.

Quote:
pro-gun
Just under half of American households contain a firearm, and about the same proportion think that gun ownership makes them safer, outweighing those who think gun ownership makes like more dangerous by a few percent.

Quote:
An outspoken federalist, he naturally voted yes to DOMA (and the Fourteenth Amendment could, of course, go **** itself.
Most states which have voted on DOMAs have passed them without obstruction, including his home state of Virginia so it's not really a huge surprise there. It flew through the House with an overwhelming majority, so again I'm not really heading towards 'conservative nutcase' yet. Also, hate-crime laws are fairly retarded anyway.

He seems to share the values of a large number of the electorate. If he does get elected, isn't that exactly what democracy's meant to be about?
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 13:44   #12
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
just because he isn't a conservative nutcase in relation to other conservative nutcases, it doesn't make him any less of a conservative nutcase.
The entire country has, in general, fairly conservative views. His conservative views aren't in any way extreme (he's not saying 'kill all the gays'), and conservatism isn't necessarily bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
pretty much, but that doesn't mean what he stands for is ok.
In your view, what he stands for isn't OK. In mine, a lot of what he stands for I disagree with, that's not to say that his standpoint isn't valid in the context of being from such a conservative background, from a traditionally Republican state and a largely religious populus.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 13:47   #13
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

America isnt a democracy, pro-gun isnt a conservative stance, and opposing late term abortions probably doesnt make you pro-life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
seriously though nod.... what changes would you make?
this isnt a nodrog thread horn, why does everything have to be about you and me...
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 14:12   #14
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

American politics can be summarised thus:

If one party puts forward a bill, the other party will almost always vote against it, no matter what the content, simpy because 'the other side did it'

Example.
Democrats recently tried to put through a bill that would provide $50Bn for Medicare insurance for the children of the working poor.

Republicans voted almost unanimously against it, despite the fact that it mimics very closely a bill they put forward five/six years ago which was roundly shot down by the Democrats because it was a Republican bill.

I've seen more adult politics in PA.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 14:21   #15
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
I've seen more adult politics in PA.
WHAT




ps. although, the description fits quite well to politics certain parties of that browser game execute, or at least used to.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 14:24   #16
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
don't we pretty much do the exact same thing here?
Not really.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 14:52   #17
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i'm not sure what you're saying here. are you saying he shouldn't be condemned for his views because of his upbringing or that he shouldn't be condemned because if he doesn't promulgate these views he won't get elected?
I think I'm saying that I don't understand Phang's seeming dismay over the relative popularity of a Republican who, in general, upholds 'traditional' Republican values. It's not exactly shock of the century that a pro-gun, law-and-order supporting, religious Republican is popular with Republican voters.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 14:54   #18
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

If you want a simpler comparison:

In Britain, 'Cash for Questions' was a scandal.
In America, 'No cash, no Question' is how Congress works.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 14:55   #19
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
hey nod, you beter start formulating your educational reforms right ****ing now because they're not just failing to educate the people, they're actually filling them with lies! in the last 10 years atleast i remember being taught in school that amerikkka was infact a democra$y!!!
I wish someone had taught you to be less of a butt.

Quote:
don't troll
hey man I'm pro-abortion at any stage, I just think that theres a difference between opposing late term abortions and opposing abortion altogether. Saying that someone is pro-life purely because they dont support late-term abortion is a bit disingenous ya know?
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 15:00   #20
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
pro-life
I admittedly misused the term
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 15:15   #21
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
wasn't it cash for honors? or is this an earlier "scandal"?

You know the saying "It is better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." it might be an idea for you to bear this in mind when you post.

Now this is the internet so, you know, WHATEVER but if i was you i would have internetted (googled/wiki/whatever) to see if there was anything on "cash for questions" before posting something that comes across as [Berk]Actually i think you'll find it's cash for honors. [/Berk]

You Horn are a ****in titwank.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 15:16   #22
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

if by late-term abortions you mean the stage where they have to break skulls open to terminate a pregnancy then really, it's not such an extremist opinion at all
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 15:27   #23
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

I am dismayed because he has become a serious contender for the presidency on the back of essentially being a fascist. So far as I can discern having scouted around editorials he is better known for being in Law and Order than for his time in the Senate so he is essentially an identikit neocon.

It dismays me that the country of my birth in large proportion no longer cares a whit about corruption, human rights or essentially the rest of the world, and are eager to elect whoever promises to crush other people's way of life in the most expedient fashion. Essentially, Fred Thompson's success tells me that the last eight years haven't been a rock-and-a-hard-place blip where people have voted for a surname then voted for the incumbent simply because they felt it was the least worst option - the country is full of ****s.

I'm not being too coherent here, I know; unmitigated dismay doesn't usually render me eloquent.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 15:27   #24
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
"hey guys, i use search engines" thanks for your contribution to the thread. i see you made a similar one in another thread. have you been saving up these babys while you were gone?


I've never left. Unfortunately you also seem disinclined to leave.
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 15:33   #25
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Unhappy Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
cool.
he doesn't really go into much detail in the citation article;
"WALLACE: As we said, perhaps the main reason that people are talking about you is this uneasy feeling among conservatives that there is not one of their own, a true conservative, in the field.

So let's do a lightning round — quick questions, quick answers, a variety of issues — to see where Fred Thompson stands.

THOMPSON: Um hmm.

WALLACE: Abortion.

THOMPSON: Pro-life."

to me that suggests you probably won't have to crack it's skull open... i'm not sure i'd care even if you would though. (as long as it can't feel it ofcourse)
i don't really know anything about this fellow, i was replying to your whole 'pro-life lite' thing which isn't true but this chap does seem to be a bit far gone down that route (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Th...abortion_group)
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Unread 3 Aug 2007, 15:58   #26
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Heres a nice link regarding the next US presidential elections:
http://www.2decide.com/table.htm
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Unread 4 Aug 2007, 12:25   #27
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
They should revise it. Globally speaking, it shouldn't be more than 1.7 or we'll run out of room here, that is, if the global warming doesn't fry us first.
If it's below 2 then the population would decrease.
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Unread 4 Aug 2007, 16:10   #28
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
He is pro-war in Iraq, pro-war in Iran. He is pro-life, pro-gun, and as supportive of free trade as he is angered by free movement of labour. An outspoken federalist, he naturally voted yes to DOMA (and the Fourteenth Amendment could, of course, go **** itself. He also voted no on including gays in hate crime and employment discrimination laws). He wants more church in our schools, fewer flag-burners, and disputes human influence in global warming, while voting against renewable energy. In the Senate he voted to restrict death penalty appeals; he voted for school vouchers and abstinence education and against increasing the education budget. He voted to cap foreign aid at $12bn, voted no to nuclear disarmament...
Sounds like your good, normal Republican to me. Nothing overly strange about that.

Also, the great thing about being a President or PM in a country with a two party system, is that you can say stuff you dont really mean, put it up as part of a bill, the other party plainly refuses to pass anything so "radical" as your espoused views, and you then have the excuse to do what you really wanted to do in the first place - but you need to get elected first. .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
If it's below 2 then the population would decrease.
I think that was deliberate; the argument being that if there are fewer consumerists in the world then there'll be less pollution and other bad things, with less global warming so everyone and the Fish dont die.

It makes sense, especially in countries like Australia where sources of fresh water is becoming a more serious concern.

Problems arise with public pension schemes, though. :\
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Unread 4 Aug 2007, 16:57   #29
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I think that was deliberate; the argument being that if there are fewer consumerists in the world then there'll be less pollution and other bad things, with less global warming so everyone and the Fish dont die.

It makes sense, especially in countries like Australia where sources of fresh water is becoming a more serious concern.

Problems arise with public pension schemes, though. :\
Wouldn't we also slide into a depression with less people to buy the goods nobody needs but are all told will make us better human beings?*



*better as in more attractive/enviable/powerful, as opposed to any philanthropic ideas of betterness
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 01:14   #30
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Wouldn't we also slide into a depression with less people to buy the goods nobody needs but are all told will make us better human beings?*
Yes and no - with fewer people around to actually make the goods, there shouldnt* be quite so large an oversupply.


*I say that without any knowledge of the empirical evidence for the scenario you describe.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 04:10   #31
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Ronald Reagan is considered one of the best presidents the USA has ever had. He was also an actor. The only real difference between Reagan and Fred Thompson is that Fred is not as photogenic.

Americans vote for people they like. We don't often use logic when picking our politicians. We vote for who is most likable. How else would Dubya end up as president. Kerry would have been a better president but most people did not like his stance on homosexual issues so we picked the religeous nut instead.

American politics is scary but it's hard for an unlikable person to get elected. Charisma goes along way these days.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 08:27   #32
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
We don't often use logic
fixed.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 12:24   #33
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Ronald Reagan is considered one of the best presidents the USA has ever had. He was also an actor. The only real difference between Reagan and Fred Thompson is that Fred is not as photogenic.
Reagan died recently, so everyone immediately came out and said how wonderful he was. In fifty years time it's likely that you'll get more balanced studies of his presidency, but for now everyone's just too busy sucking his cock in memoriam.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Americans vote for people they like. We don't often use logic when picking our politicians. We vote for who is most likable. How else would Dubya end up as president. Kerry would have been a better president but most people did not like his stance on homosexual issues so we picked the religeous nut instead.
It wasn't his stance on homosexual issues, it was the questions against his character, in particular the Swift Boat debacle. Don't you remember the flip-flop charge against him?
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 12:27   #34
Mzyxptlk
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Reagan died recently, so everyone immediately came out and said how wonderful he was. In fifty years time it's likely that you'll get more balanced studies of his presidency, but for now everyone's just too busy sucking his cock in memoriam.
Suck the dead guy's dick.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 05:53   #35
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Re: American politics scares the bejesus out of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
It wasn't his stance on homosexual issues, it was the questions against his character, in particular the Swift Boat debacle. Don't you remember the flip-flop charge against him?
I disagree. An issue was made regarding a member of his campaign staff being an outspoken member of a Gay Rights organization. The Swift Boat thing was highly used in the Media but in reality a large number of church going people were encouraged to get out and vote to keep Bush in support of hetrosexual marriages being the only legal marriages. Kerry was for same sex marriage being legalized and thus lost the vote.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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