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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 18:03   #1
Hebdomad
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Would you use this programming language?

If...
  • It compiled to be a fast as C
  • You could also use a interpreters to program it in an iterative way
  • It'd been developed since the 1950s
  • Its metaprogramming capabilities enabled rewrites of the programming language to add in whatever feature you (and others) wanted
  • It was fully object orientated because of the above fact
  • Yet it didn't force you to adhere to a particular paradigm if you didn't want to.
  • In fact because of the aforementioned metaprogramming, you could define your own.
  • NASA used it in their space programme
  • Its uniform syntax kept the amount of syntax you have to learn to a minimum
  • Ruby and Python were heavily influenced by it.

If that sounds good, have you ever looked at Common Lisp? I'm reading this book and it's a revelation.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 18:50   #2
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

I know it's not wholly functional, but a lot of programmers who are used to all-procedural programming struggle to adapt to anything functional. I've used Lisp for AI stuff before and toyed with Scheme from an academic-interest point of view and it's great fun once you get yourself into how Lisp operates. A lot of my problem was that I had in my head that it was more complicated than it was, and tended to create problems for myself when none existed.

If you like Lisp you should have a look at OCaml for comparison. There are a lot of very smart people writing obscenely functional (in the 'things it can do') code with very little effort for both languages.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 19:49   #3
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

I've not looked at Scheme and I doubt that I will due its minimalist nature.

I've had no conceptual problems moving from a C/C++/Java/Python/Ruby over to Common Lisp. I've not found the functional basis that different. I actually don't think it is that different. You pass parameters to procedures to gain results, and you do the same with functions. The terminology is a bit tricky as well, especially both function and procedure are used interchangeably.
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Unread 24 Apr 2007, 05:15   #4
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

I have to admit that I have always been a C fanboy, I've often found most of the alternatives try to overcomplicate the programming process rather than simplify it.

That has only changed recently since working with Lua and I have been blown away by its flexibility despite having a very basic building blocks structure.

As I understand some of the fundamental concepts in Lua are derived or simular in nature to Lisp and Scheme. So based on that alone I'd probably be willing to give Lisp a try. Previously I had only heard of Lisp being used for natural language processing, rather than as a base for standard programes so had not given it much thought.
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Unread 25 Apr 2007, 19:25   #5
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

I liked what I read of Lua, but I didn't use it too much. The C/Lua glue code wasn't documented that well when I tried it. If I were going to write a large C programme again I'd definitely use it.

Oh and pab, reading on, I've realised what you meant. But it's not all functional programming, a lot of the functions are destructive, so it's a bit of both.
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Unread 3 May 2007, 07:17   #6
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

Lisp is beyond awesome and I would rarely choose to use anything else for 90% of tasks unless I was forced to due to lack of libraries. Learning Lisp completely changed the way I thought about programming and made me far far better at thinking about structure than I was previously.

Pretty much the only drawback of it is that I'll probably never get used to the generic function implementation of OO rather than the 'conventiona' objects-owning-methods approach.


The other plus point of Lisp/Scheme is that some of best compsci books ever written use them as core languages (eg SICP and Norvig's Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming, as well as "How To Design Programs" which is arguably the best general 'introduction to programming' book there is). Personally I'd recommend people start with Scheme rather than Lisp - Lisp has iterative features which are definitely useful, but if youre coming from a C/C++/Java background its really tempting to fall back on them and end up writing C-style code in Lisp rather than learning how to do things properly.

All that, and you also get to read hilarious rants by notoriously insane Lisp programmers!


However...

Quote:
It compiled to be a fast as C
This generally isnt true. Theres many ways of speeding up Lisp code from really basic stuff like tail-recursion and declaring types, to more subtle things, but to really make it anywhere close to the speed of C youre probably going to destroy most of the beauty of your code which partially defeats the point in using Lisp in the first place.

Last edited by Nodrog; 3 May 2007 at 07:46.
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Unread 3 May 2007, 09:57   #7
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
but to really make it anywhere close to the speed of C youre probably going to destroy most of the beauty of your code which partially defeats the point in using Lisp in the first place.
That's pretty much what these guys concluded. The study's not in any way an exhaustive language comparison but it, in this particular example, pegged Lisp as an order of magnitude slower than the best OCaml implementations, probably due to OCaml's compiler being able to insert type declarations to avoid inference at run-time.

Still, the elegance of the functional solutions compared with the procedural (in particular the C++) is immediately apparent.
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Unread 3 May 2007, 21:09   #8
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

Then I've been lied too! Damn those zealous Lisp hackers. It does seem quite fast though, in comparison to Python, Ruby etc.
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Unread 3 May 2007, 22:09   #9
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
That's pretty much what these guys concluded. The study's not in any way an exhaustive language comparison but it, in this particular example, pegged Lisp as an order of magnitude slower than the best OCaml implementations, probably due to OCaml's compiler being able to insert type declarations to avoid inference at run-time.
I think the lisp syntax makes it superior to OCaml - its the syntax that really brings out what is going on in the underlying evaluation model. Yeah, OCaml is a functional language and you can theoretically do everything in it that you can in lisp, but the richer syntax makes it a lot harder to treat code as data. You couldnt really have the power of the Lisp macro system in OCaml for instance.

I havent used OCaml that much though (only used it for a fortnight or so to see what it was like), so perhaps it has other features which balance this out.

Last edited by Nodrog; 3 May 2007 at 22:19.
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Unread 5 May 2007, 10:53   #10
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

Basically, I looked at OCamel, saw the two semi-colons after each sentence and therefore decided it was awful.

Also, the worst thing about Lisp so far, apart from the often needlessly differing implementation and the portability code you have to write (pathnames ), is cocking emacs. I don't even touch-type, but I am learning now because of this. What's that? Control-P to go up one line and C-x V to scroll down a page? Yes that's completely sensible. And constantly pressing the control key with my little finger. Lovely.
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Unread 5 May 2007, 11:33   #11
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

use a different editor?
theres vi, nano, etc

i would recommend nano though tbh if only for its simplicity
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Unread 6 May 2007, 00:41   #12
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

The SlIME Lisp environment is Emacs only. So I'm pretty much forced to. I prefer the modal Vim model, but alas. I just found a Lisp plugin for Eclipse which looks nice actually, CUSP. But I've started down this road now... It'll be okay when I've sullied my brain with enough Lisp keyboard short-cuts and increased my finger dexterity
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Unread 6 May 2007, 06:27   #13
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
Also, the worst thing about Lisp so far, apart from the often needlessly differing implementation and the portability code you have to write (pathnames ), is cocking emacs. I don't even touch-type, but I am learning now because of this. What's that? Control-P to go up one line and C-x V to scroll down a page? Yes that's completely sensible. And constantly pressing the control key with my little finger. Lovely.
Emacs for windows lets you use the arrow keys doesnt it? And learning to touch type will help you in the long run anyway. I'd prefer not to use emacs personally because I'm too lazy to learn how to use its more advanced features. But Slime mode is really cool.

If you really hate it that much, have you looked at alternative Lisp IDEs like Allegro?
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Unread 7 May 2007, 07:42   #14
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

Well trying Lisp wasn't as easy as I'd hoped.

Any suggestions where I can find a decent win32 package for Lisp?

The closest I've found so far is via cygwin emulation which defeats the purpose of working within Windows in the first place.

Ideally I'd rather code within Context and setup a macro to an external compiler, but anything with decent syntax highlighting would do.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 17:54   #15
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

corman lisp or allegro as nodrog suggested.
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Unread 8 May 2007, 21:06   #16
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

I started looking at Common Lisp a couple of weeks ago, I haven't done anything useful with it yet though. I've had tons of fun just playing with it. And I'm forcing myself to learn emacs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad"
It does seem quite fast though, in comparison to Python, Ruby etc.
This seems to be true for me as well. A lot faster than, as well.
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Unread 9 May 2007, 19:10   #17
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

qebab, does emacs take ages to load up now you've got all the SLIME stuff in the .emacs file?
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Unread 10 May 2007, 01:28   #18
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Re: Would you use this programming language?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
qebab, does emacs take ages to load up now you've got all the SLIME stuff in the .emacs file?
No, it goes pretty fast (A couple of seconds maybe).
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