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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 12:14   #1
Achilles
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Who wants to live forever?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6517645.stm

In brief, UK researchers have grown a human heart valve from stem cells. The lead researcher also expresses confidence that they will be able to grow entire hearts within 10 years.

When this is combined with the advances being seen in retro-aging drug research, many estimates I have read put the average anticipated human lifespan, assuming full access to these technologies, at over 500 years old by the end of the century. I believe these people, do you?

If so, what are going to do with all that time? What will it mean for global economies and infrastructures? With many areas already struggling to cope with blossoming population growth and issues such as global warming and resource depletion already headline news are we doomed to 'outlive' the viability of our planet in terms of human sustainability?
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 12:19   #2
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

What use is there if you have to spend aprox. 70% of your life being senile?
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 12:21   #3
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

The beauty and cosmetics industry is gonna boom like crazy. World domination to these companies :S.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 12:24   #4
Achilles
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

You wouldn't be senile. There are already extremely promising retro-aging drugs that are awaiting human trials which will double the average human lifespan and keep you appearing to be in your 30's-40' until you die of something other than old age. For example organ failure.* If you are already old they can actually reverse much of the damage caused to date by 'attacking' the chemical causes of aging.

*As we have seen from OP we will now be able to deal with this in other ways.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 12:25   #5
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

I think the retirement age is is going to go up to over 70 years old.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 12:32   #6
Achilles
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Additional link. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4003063.stm
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 12:34   #7
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I think the retirement age is is going to go up to over 70 years old.
If you were healthy and if work wasn't too appalling in the first place then this wouldn't be too problematic.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 12:38   #8
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Apart from the sensationalistic claims are you really going to trust a man with a beard like a squashed hedgehog?
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 12:44   #9
Achilles
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

He's a bit of a nutter in appearance with some seriously stylized rhetoric, I agree, but his claims are based on solid evidence and documented research. I have read articles in both Nature and Science magazines from other world renowned people in this field and they all spoke with one voice. Infact it's almost impossible to find a dissenting view from anyone with a doctorate at a major university, I have tried. It seems it can be done and that they are doing it.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 12:46   #10
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
What will it mean for global economies and infrastructures? With many areas already struggling to cope with blossoming population growth and issues such as global warming and resource depletion already headline news are we doomed to 'outlive' the viability of our planet in terms of human sustainability?
I don't think overpopulation will be a major problem, at least not in the long term. Birth rates are already falling all over the world and this trend should continue into the future. Also it shouldn't be too difficult to regulate. For example laws could be introduced that say that if you take retro-aging drugs then you first have to be sterilised. A bit draconian but hey, if it's gotta be done then it's gotta be done. We'll adapt in much the same way the world is adapting to a decrease in infant mortality.

As for the economy, it should be a huge boost. At the moment people spend a significant amount of their lives either in full time education or in retirement. This is a huge drain on our resources so with more people working for longer it should make everyone more prosperous.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 13:06   #11
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Cancer is an inevitability, the longer you live the more likely it is you will get it. The only reason some people don't get cancer is because something else killed them first. You would need to stop cancer before you are going to get anywhere near those life expectancies.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 13:17   #12
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Dr Stephen Minger, a stem cell expert at London's King's College...
Let's see stem-cells take care of your embarrassing surname
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 13:21   #13
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Many, though obviously not all, cancers can be attributed directly to the effects of aging. More specifically damage caused to the DNA in cells by free radicals. Not only would this type of damage be seriously reduced with retro-aging drugs but the advances in stem cell therapies would allow new organs to be grown for people who did get sick.

This is also not including the fact that cancer treatments are improving year-on-year.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 13:47   #14
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

I'm thoroughly in favour of the idea of living forever - or at least for several hundred years. My only worry is that I might not live long enough to see the invention of the necessary medical technology
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 14:10   #15
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Get your head cryogenically frozen like Walt Disney.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 14:20   #16
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

A few hundred years at least would be nice. Forever, no. That would be hellish.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 16:26   #17
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

I'd settle for 750 years.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 16:44   #18
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
With many areas already struggling to cope with blossoming population growth and issues such as global warming and resource depletion already headline news are we doomed to 'outlive' the viability of our planet in terms of human sustainability?
I think most of the things which could jeopardise our survival in the long run would be down to cultural factors and the psychology of those opting for this super-long lifespan. I don't really see resource issues being an insurmountable barrier if you had a population which had the benefits of hundreds of years of experience combined somehow with an energetic attitude to problems and desire to innovate.

If on the other hand, you had people who were mentally young but still had some of the psychological traits sometimes associated with ageing (increased fears, risk averse, socially conservative) then the world probably wouldn't be such a great place to live. But if we're assuming we've developed to the point where we can easily cure cancer, reverse neurological damage at will, etc - why not assume we can "fix" people's psychology to?
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 17:22   #19
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
why not assume we can "fix" people's psychology to?
This rather defeats the object, since (at least as far as I am concerned) the aim would be to prolong my consciousness, not to prolong a version of my consciousness which has been altered by some group of other people (whoever 'we' is).

Besides, I'm not sure that this is anywhere near as big a problem as you suggest. I've known some very innovative and engaged old people, and some very closed-minded and conservative young people and I suspect that these traits are determined at the individual level and not by age.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 18:39   #20
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

It would cause a lot of changes in society. Would the technology be available to everyone? If so, birth control attitudes would have to change on the part of many. Forced sterilization for some? Imagine having to wait for 85-90 years just to get a job at McDonalds. Or, imagine working at a job for 400 years before retirement.

Attitudes toward environmental issues would shift appreciably. At 60 I don't have to worry personally about anything beyond the next 25-35 years (if lucky). If I was going to live to 400-500 years old, I'd need to plan a little further down the road.

It is a fantastic premise for thinking of the future.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 18:58   #21
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Besides, I'm not sure that this is anywhere near as big a problem as you suggest. I've known some very innovative and engaged old people, and some very closed-minded and conservative young people
Indeed, and I don't buy these traits being age determined either (in the strictest sense). But it seems possible to imagine a scenario where even if you could live to a thousand years old your mindset might never quite "catch up". However, conversely it's also possible that people who are young now are so used to rapid change that they wouldn't really be affected in the same way that older people now are.
Quote:
and I suspect that these traits are determined at the individual level and not by age.
Absolutley, although it's possible there is an influence from a number of factors (culture, religion, politics, upbringing, etc) - one of which could be age.

To use an example ; it's generally said that your ability to learn a language declines with age. Even in your mid-twenties (when you haven't exactly entered senility) it seems much harder to learn a new language than when you're much younger. I believe case studies involving "wolf children" have shown that this is true even for those attempting to learn their "first" language in later life, not just second and third. I've heard it argued by linguists that even if the average persons spends the rest of their life learning a language most (not all) people do not seem to reach the same level of competence as a native speaker (if they start beyond a certain age).

If we assume for a moment there's some bilogical explanation to this change (or if it perhaps affects other skills too) then you could be alive for a thousand years but find it harder (or less appealing) to learn new things. Obviously this is all hugely hypothetical but still.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 21:40   #22
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Forever is a very long time, think of the people you dont like, you'd be stuck with them, what if the person/persons you love died accidentally, added to which does the human brain have a capacity for memory, we dont know.

Personally, i think i'd be the weird one and pass on the opportunity.
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Unread 2 Apr 2007, 23:03   #23
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

It would be nice to live long enough to see the Great Conflicts of the early 2700's to their close, but I already know I'll have to sacrifice my life to protect the Chosen One before he comes into his own.

C'est la vie, n'est-ce pas?
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Unread 3 Apr 2007, 03:15   #24
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
Cancer is an inevitability, the longer you live the more likely it is you will get it. The only reason some people don't get cancer is because something else killed them first. You would need to stop cancer before you are going to get anywhere near those life expectancies.

I wonder if prions would present a similar problem in a significant number of individuals. I seem to recall someone (a lecturer) telling me that prions are present in everyone, and that spongiform enchepalitis was an inevitibility in humans above a certain age, as certain mutants of prion merely take longer to cause it than others (e.g. those responsible for CJD).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion
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Unread 4 Apr 2007, 14:21   #25
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
Cancer is an inevitability, the longer you live the more likely it is you will get it. The only reason some people don't get cancer is because something else killed them first. You would need to stop cancer before you are going to get anywhere near those life expectancies.
cancer is a triviality humanity can leave behind the moment they get over their sappy sentimental attachment to mitotic tissue.

that shit'll kill you, but i'm guessing that it will just another hurdle the fundies will get all up in arms about before it can be jumped.
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Unread 4 Apr 2007, 16:50   #26
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

I don't. I'd happily settle for 60-70 years on my part, but I imagine for that to happen, cancer research has to advance a bit (the family tree is telling me that).

Case 1) The technology isn't available to everyone, and you're one of the select few in your generation that can use it. Most of the people you know and like get old and die. You don't.
Case 2) Everyone gets to use it, and the world gets a massive population boost and...
I don't know how to continue that trail of thought. But the more I think about it, the more I'm happy that I won't live forever.
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Unread 4 Apr 2007, 16:57   #27
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

**** forever if you don't mind.
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Unread 4 Apr 2007, 17:01   #28
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
cancer is a triviality
o rly
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Unread 4 Apr 2007, 20:19   #29
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Damn Boffins enabling us to live forever! What's next? Are they gonna make it so we can learn how to fly? :mad:
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Unread 5 Apr 2007, 14:22   #30
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
o rly
hey hows that going for you lately?

good news/bad news?
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Unread 5 Apr 2007, 22:27   #31
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Was that human heart valve grown from embryonic stem cells or adult stem cells? I'm guessing they must have been embryonic stem cells, because as we all know they are the ultimate cure for everything that ails the human race.
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Unread 5 Apr 2007, 22:35   #32
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
Was that human heart valve grown from embryonic stem cells or adult stem cells? I'm guessing they must have been embryonic stem cells, because as we all know they are the ultimate cure for everything that ails the human race.
what?





(and by asking 'what'? I mean of course; "what the **** do you imagine you achieved by putting those particular words in that particular order?" "what led you to believe that you made sense in the English language" and of course "what is that 'roll eye' smilie included for when you are so obviously an utter spastic?")
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Unread 5 Apr 2007, 23:38   #33
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
Was that human heart valve grown from embryonic stem cells or adult stem cells? I'm guessing they must have been embryonic stem cells, because as we all know they are the ultimate cure for everything that ails the human race.
Bone marrow. You'd know that if you read the article in the link I posted. There's even a little picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
"what led you to believe that you made sense in the English language"
His post makes sense in English, it's just not very good. I believe the 'roll eye' smiley in this case denotes sarcasm. I'm not sure how you, of all people, could miss sarcasm.
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Unread 6 Apr 2007, 13:38   #34
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

I'd have thought it was stem cells from embryos, as more celltypes can be produced from them. From the website though, apparently it's adult stemcells.

Yahwe, you should be quiet about stemcells - I remember you telling me I was "wrong" when the doctors told me I'd have to have some of my stemcells removed and then placed back inside me after a particularly intense set of chemo (to get my immune system back up and running quicker, after it was blasted). Your knowledge in the area is laughable


On another note, having a needle stuck into my bone marrow and stem-cells removed from it is one of the most unpleasant experiences I've ever had.
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 15:32   #35
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
Ensuring everyone has access to these treatments is ofcourse the only right thing to do. Assuming it happens and assuming we don't find any novel ways to allow an ever increasing population then yes, we'd have to take some action. my suggestion would be to bar people from having kids.
Or we could colonise the moon.
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 15:34   #36
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

If people live longer, there's a decent chance they'd have fewer children anyway, assuming they remain fertile.
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 21:42   #37
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
I can't remember what article it was i was reading recently about this but it went a little something like this....
when we're young and gay we have a head full of neurons, a blank slate. schemas/knowledge/etc form neuronic pathways and the more you use these pathways the stronger they get. Apparently as we get older the unused neurons die and the strenghtened neoronic pathways gain a "sheath", kind of like the plastic covering on a wire. obviously this means it's harder to "change" the pathways, but it helps speed them up etc. If anyone knows of any articles relating to this please link to them, i want to read them .
Google for 'myelination' (which I'm guessing is what youre talking about), although you'll mostly find solid neuroscience stuff rather than dubious psychological theories about how it relates to people being closeminded.
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 21:48   #38
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
The idea that the technology will only be of any use to the rich and powerful is a concern i share
I'm not sure why you'd fear this, it hasnt happened with any other technological development in history. There's generally more money to be made selling a reasonably priced product to the masses than there is selling a luxury item to a select few. Like most new technology, I imagine it would start out extremely expensive and out of reach of most people, and then decrease in price over time until it was widely available.
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 23:28   #39
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

hehe
i find it ironic that someone with the nickname "Achilles" started this thread
seeing as he will *live* on for ever in legend
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 11:50   #40
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I'd have thought it was stem cells from embryos, as more celltypes can be produced from them. From the website though, apparently it's adult stemcells.

Yahwe, you should be quiet about stemcells - I remember you telling me I was "wrong" when the doctors told me I'd have to have some of my stemcells removed and then placed back inside me after a particularly intense set of chemo (to get my immune system back up and running quicker, after it was blasted). Your knowledge in the area is laughable


On another note, having a needle stuck into my bone marrow and stem-cells removed from it is one of the most unpleasant experiences I've ever had.
I dont think the general public, myself included know that much about stemcell research, and automatically think embryos when its mentioned because thats all we hear it in conjunction with in the press, i certainly didnt realise there were adult ones until you mentioned it, it is probably a common misconception .
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 12:10   #41
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I'm not sure why you'd fear this, it hasnt happened with any other technological development in history.
Actually, it's happened with most modern technologies so far. Or, at least is has done if you look at the world picture. Something like 1bn people don't have access to clean water supplies and 1.6bn don't have access to electricity (and the UN estimate this number will be something like 1.4bn on current trends in thirty years)

Obviously the idea that only the ten richest kings in Europe will have access to any new technology is silly, but I'd say that it's very likely that at least the bottom 50% of the world's population wouldn't have access to this sort of technology for a long while after it's introduction - even if it followed the same pattern of distribution as existing goods.

On top of this, most other technologies don't lead to zero sum situations - you having a DVD player doesn't really stop me having from one because the overall impact on global resources would be minimal. If you got to the situation where no-one in Europe or North America was ever going to die then this would profoundly impact on the availability of housing, public services and uses of infrastructure. I'd imagine it would also strongly affect attitudes to immigration.

We'd all be presuming a large upturn in economic growth which could offset these problems - but that's not assured. Certain resources (e.g. space, certain energy resources, the atmosphere) may not be unlimited and therefore the logic of rationing is introduced. Depending on how these technologies worked (i.e. how much they would cost, how easy they'd be to copy) I would imagine there would be considerable debate before letting everyone have access to it.

Again, I'm talking globally here - I suspect the top 10% of every country would be treated, and then vast majority of currently industrialised populations, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I was in Somalia or the Congo.
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 17:18   #42
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

I'd like to live long enough to where scientist can successfully clone me, and transfer my consciousness to the younger version of me.
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 21:20   #43
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

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I'd like to live long enough to where scientist can successfully clone me, and transfer my consciousness to the younger version of me.
that makes two of you, does the body your conciousness inhabited have no right to live once you have transfered ?

once your conciousness has left it, will you still have autonomic responses, which would continue the life of that body ? in which case which of you is legally you ?

what demotes self, the body or the conciousness ?

if you create a clone, then an accident occurs, and you die or your conciouness is somehow destroyed, what happens to that clone ?

cloning and conciousness transfer even if perfected has some legal and moral hurdles to overcome before it could become fact of life.
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 22:09   #44
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Yes, but by the time that comes to be, I'll have paid off enough lawyers and judges so that whatever the laws are, it will be in my favor.
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Unread 10 Apr 2007, 22:26   #45
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

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I dont think the general public, myself included know that much about stemcell research, and automatically think embryos when its mentioned because thats all we hear it in conjunction with in the press, i certainly didnt realise there were adult ones until you mentioned it, it is probably a common misconception .
That was the point of my earlier post, but I guess most of you missed it.
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Unread 10 Apr 2007, 22:41   #46
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Because most of you are brainwashed by the European media and brain dead anyway.

You don't really need to worry about all this stuff because the immigrants to Europe are going to kill you and all of your children anyway.
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Unread 10 Apr 2007, 22:49   #47
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

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Originally Posted by Texan
Because most of you are brainwashed by the European media and brain dead anyway.

You don't really need to worry about all this stuff because the immigrants to Europe are going to kill you and all of your children anyway.
If there was any justice in the world I'd ban you and erase all your posts from my mind. Unfortunately there isn't so instead I'm going to link to here.
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Unread 10 Apr 2007, 23:35   #48
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

Jonny,
You can't live without my 13 trillion dollars. Deal with it.
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Unread 10 Apr 2007, 23:48   #49
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

I think you've mistaken me for someone who isn't eagerly anticipating the downfall of western civilisation.
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Unread 10 Apr 2007, 23:55   #50
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Re: Who wants to live forever?

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I think you've mistaken me for someone who isn't eagerly anticipating the downfall of western civilisation.
Western civilization is not going to fall. It's going to end in Europe. It will continue in North America. Join us. Emigrate now or die.
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