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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 13:52   #51
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
For greeting girls it usually one hand on their upper arm and a kiss on the opposite cheek.
I just tried that on a female co-worker.


Now I have to go to a workers tribunal for it.
Thanks.





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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 15:16   #52
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
I just tried that on a female co-worker.


Now I have to go to a workers tribunal for it.
Thanks.





;-P
I was talking in a social context as per the thread title
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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 17:26   #53
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Re: Social Greetings

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not that it'd be a bad place to start looking for explanations for social dynamics etc given that we evolved from them.
We did not evolve from baboons. The various species we evolved from probably do not currently exist. We share an ancestor with them sure, but that's a different argument entirely.
Quote:
it doesn't mean that more aggressive/successful/confidant people don't exist.
Of course, but specifying these people as some sort of special class of people (even in a given moment in time) is pretty meaningless. If TK is saying anyone can be an alpha-male in a given circumstances, and that this will depend on a range of factors (and might change several times in a single conversation) then what is it's value as a concept?
Quote:
as an american pop psychologist once said... "high testosterone males tend to get their own way". and i must say, from what i've seen... he was right!
I doubt that's a general truth even as a tendency. I bet there are a hell of a lot more "high-testostorone males" languishing in America's prisons (or their armed forces) than there are on the boards of Fortune 500 companies, heading up Ivy League departments or in positions of significant authority elsewhere.

Sure, "leaders" often exhibit aggressive/dominating traits but these things rarely simple. The most aggressive people tend to be people who are powerless or feel they are otherwise out of their depth.

Someone like Jack Welch may have been aggressive in meetings but most of his (and others like him) success seems to come much more from a specific type of insight and tenacity (additionally he apparently has always had a stutter which presumably diminishes his alpha status). There are sports stars who coast through life on the basis of certain "macho" traits, but these are the minority. Some football players undoubtedly go on to be the CEO but I suspect a good number go on to be Al Bundy. Success, where not or endowed by good fortune or birthright, seems much more to do with mental self-discipline and certain communication skills more than anything else (and charisma is rarely rooted in aggression).

Sure, I understand that when you were at school you probably got bullied a lot by the bigger kids, the same ones who got with all the hot gurlz but I wouldn't try to extrapolate that into a general sociological rule.

Finally, I would say I'm not actually opposed to theories of dominance. There certainly does seem to be a range of attitudes people have towards domination (in both a sexual sense, and in any social relationships) and you could probably even generalise about certain personality traits that might accompany some of these attitudes. I am personally very interested in the way some people don't seem to mind (and indeed enjoy) being mistreated while others are repulsed by the idea. On a personal level, I have found that every girl who has been attracted to me has been into submissiveness in a fairly major way and I've always wondered why.

So there are insights to be had here, however, this alpha-male stuff is just not nuanced enough to be a theory with either real predictive, analytical or explanatory power.
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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 18:04   #54
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Jonny has already said this but if this doesn't change depending on circumstance then your friends must be a very bizarre bunch indeed. Surely the person who "leads" a conversation will depend on what the subject is? Yes, there are people who are generally shy and there are people who are generally very confident, but for the vast majority of people the level of confidence they display in an individual circumstance will depend on more than merely the girth of their penis, or their testosterone levels.
I think you're getting mixed up with the two meanings of "alpha male". There's the classic meaning, which is almost tongue-in-cheek, meaning the strongest/more intelligent/best looking. I just coined the phrase to describe someone who dominates a social situation (I mean, I said "male" when of course it applies to both females and males). I never said it was anything to do with other attributes. Just confidence and social skills.

They'll lead the conversation because it'll be something they want to talk about. Part of social dominance is being able to adapt to different situations and different conversations. Someone who is quite socially adept will be able to steer the conversation in a direction they're more comfortable with (often subconsciously).
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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 18:08   #55
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Sure, I understand that when you were at school you probably got bullied a lot by the bigger kids, the same ones who got with all the hot gurlz but I wouldn't try to extrapolate that into a general sociological rule.
Sorry for picking one paragraph out of the post you made, but this again isn't what I mean by "alpha male". I wish I'd used a different term, as people are getting mixed up in semantics.

The boys at school who would get the girls were generally the ones (at my school, anyway) who were sporty and good looking.

The ones I'd term as dominant socially weren't the sporty ones. They were the ones who everyone liked (even the teachers) - usually quite intelligent and witty. I'm sure we all had a few at our schools. Those are the ones I'd term as the "alpha males".
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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 18:24   #56
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Re: Social Greetings

Besides, ridiculing psychology for comparing us to other species is completely erroneous. I didn't mention any studies comparing dominance in monkeys/apes to humans. You just brought it up to try and mock the idea of people being more dominant than others consistently in social groups*.

If anything, one of the most interesting studies into dominance in social situations would be on a program such as Big Brother. Especially in the first week or so, when the housemates first enter the house. Being the alpha in the group CAN be a good thing, but it can also work against them as people find them irritating.




*to Dante, not horn (in case you didn't realise).
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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 18:59   #57
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Besides, ridiculing psychology for comparing us to other species is completely erroneous. I didn't mention any studies comparing dominance in monkeys/apes to humans.
No, but that's where the term originates from as far as I can remember. Sure, if you've invented your own term with it's own connotations then fine (and most of my remarks are cheerfully withdrawn), otherwise you're accepting the implications that go with the existing terminology.

And as I've said, my problem is mainly about what you're terming "dominating". The person who arranges things often does so because they have a talent for it, not because they're "dominating" anything. Indeed, a lot of people who arrange things are often quite put upon (and end up taking financial penalties for sorting things out). You're taking a wide range of behaviours/personality types (people who tell a good anecdote, the people who are respected for their wisdom, people who are good organisers, people who are popular) and mashing it incoherently into one term (a bit like IQ-type arguments).
Quote:
The ones I'd term as dominant socially weren't the sporty ones. They were the ones who everyone liked (even the teachers) - usually quite intelligent and witty. I'm sure we all had a few at our schools. Those are the ones I'd term as the "alpha males".
Yeah, I was responding to horn's point about high testostorone males though. You and he are arguing subtly different things I think. He's arguing what you term the "classic" view. Speaking personally though, none of the "socially dominant" people in my school were very clever, but then perhaps my school just had a lot of thick people in it. And I can't remember anyone who the teachers were fond of being treated with anything less than contempt by most people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
ok, i'm assuming when most "pop psychologists" refer to monkeyesque behaviour, they're not refering to baboons then. they'd be reffering to whichever species we split from.
Leaving aside some of the problems with this kind of evolutionary psychology I would point out that we've not actually observed this common ancestor and probably know very little about its behaviours. We're talking about five million years ago or more remember.
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Originally Posted by horn
i disagree. i can predict the outcome of various social situations with some accuracy based on who i view to be the more "dominant" person. it happens on a daily basis!
Well, it depends on what you mean here, and the complexity of the interaction in question.

I suspect beyond the banal it'd be very difficult. Sure, by examining someone's track-record of how they behave toward another person we can get a good idea of how they'll behave in the future in similar or identical conditions, but that's hardly a revelation. If you are saying that you can determine how two people will behave in a non-trivial interaction who have never met (or interacted in any way) and furthermore you can determine this by observing some sort of physical attributes (or taking a blood test for hormone levels) then cool, let's get predicting and we can call it "Phrenology 2". The nobel prize will probably be in the post.

At the moment your predictive claim is either almost tautology (people who are dominating in a social situation are likely to dominate in the same social setting) or unsupported (stuff about high testostoroned people). I'm sure there's a middle ground which is slightly more sensible, but I'm not seeing it.

p.s. If people are going to make serious reference to Big Brother as a model of human behaviour or experimental psychology I wish they could give specific references to scenarios which they outline rather than just some vague alusion to how BB explains it all.
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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 20:03   #58
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I didn't say the "alpha male" was always the same person, dude. If you remember my original example, I said they were the person dominating the social situation at that time, so they would usually initiate the handshake.

Try to keep up
I don't think you understand what I meant by rotation. Usually it's based on high card draw. We use this for pretty much everything now. This argument seems to have become amazingly trite.

To go back to your first post what happens if you think you're the alpha male and extend your hand. Does the other guy eat your soul in revenge? Why not just extend your hand all the time and avoid worrying about the situation?
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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 20:27   #59
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Re: Social Greetings

In case the other gentleman is infact a baboon and shits in it.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 15:59   #60
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Re: Social Greetings

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
Yahwe was the social alpha male.
I fail to see a situation ever when Yahwe would be the alpha male.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 16:09   #61
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
I fail to see a situation ever when Yahwe would be the alpha male.
if yahwe was a monkey in a zoo, on a monkey-island surrounded by water, where all other monkeys were gay or bisexual too but worse at law. then he would be the alpha male.

ps the thread-title is a tautology tom.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 16:38   #62
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I hate this. I think it's horribly European, and I'm - quite simply - not European.
  1. Whats wrong with it being european?
  2. Where are you from?

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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 17:12   #63
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Re: Social Greetings

It's obviously somewhere that's never been influenced by European nations. Linguistically I'm guessing Esperanto. Not wait.. Um.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 20:42   #64
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Re: Social Greetings

jersey actually fuk u!
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 21:28   #65
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i don't have a firm grasp of just how long is needed for varying levels of "evolution", but from what i gather 5 million years doesn't necessarily mean we're completely different.
Well, we're not completely different from a lump of coal, but that's not really that insightful either. Given the gigantic difference between different human beings (which are apparently "ten times" more similar than your beloved Chimps) in this sort of field, I'm not sure how helpful all of this. However, my point about five million years was not related to evolutionary differences but that we cannot make bold claims about what our common ancestor definitely was like when we may not even accurate fossil records.
Quote:
i've seen at least two documentarys
Well done. Western intellectual thought does encompass a little more than this though.
Quote:
that doesn't mean that testosterone doesn't have an affect though.
Undoubtedly it does have an impact, it's a very important hormone. My gripe is not against claims that our biology is important (well, duh) it's that these claims are need to be properly defined and then supported with something approaching evidence. And that's evidence from outside Big Brother, or what you've seen at the gym in case you were wondering.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 21:41   #66
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
I fail to see a situation ever when Yahwe would be the alpha male.
darling tut

I fail to see a situation where Yahwe would ever be the alpha male.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 18:19   #67
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
  1. Whats wrong with it being european?
  2. Where are you from?

Everything.

I'm English. Long live England.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 20:34   #68
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
Everything.
Except the presence of England in it?








PS Does anyone have any idea what horn is arguing?
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 20:40   #69
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
PS Does anyone have any idea what horn is arguing?
that we should use chavs in scientific experiments as they are 'closer' to humans than other animals, through this England can rise to the top of the scientific community (with the rest of the UK piggy-backing, especially the Scots who would have done it on their 'neds' first if they had indepenendance) and rebuild the empire?
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 20:58   #70
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
PS Does anyone have any idea what horn is arguing?
i just skim read his posts for the inevitable suicide declaration
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 21:28   #71
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Re: Social Greetings

I was actually talking about the ever-fluctuating genetic rant that's occurring a few posts up.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 13:36   #72
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Re: Social Greetings

Am I the only one here who never shakes their friends hands? If I know someone I just generally go "hi" or some other greeting. I would find it weird to do anything else now. The first time i meet someone then I will generally shake their hand and then never again, even if I rarely see them. This seems to be what most people I have never seen any of them hug/shake hands with people they know well.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 13:53   #73
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by midge5
Am I the only one here who never shakes their friends hands? If I know someone I just generally go "hi" or some other greeting. I would find it weird to do anything else now. The first time i meet someone then I will generally shake their hand and then never again, even if I rarely see them. This seems to be what most people I have never seen any of them hug/shake hands with people they know well.
I only dont shake hands with two people and they are probably my two best friends. Everyone else I will shake hands, hug, kiss whatever.

I like shaking hands.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 15:09   #74
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by midge5
Am I the only one here who never shakes their friends hands?
No, I agree - for my closest friends (i.e. people I've known over a decade or so and who I see regularly) I would never shake their hands. If you feel completely comfortable with people there's less need for such rituals. Of course, if someone particularly liked to shake hands then I doubt I'd make a thing of it.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 16:07   #75
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Re: Social Greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
No, I agree - for my closest friends (i.e. people I've known over a decade or so and who I see regularly) I would never shake their hands. If you feel completely comfortable with people there's less need for such rituals. Of course, if someone particularly liked to shake hands then I doubt I'd make a thing of it.
I'd be similar. I actually do have a good friend who recently enough (six months to a year) decided that shaking hands if he hadn't seen me for a couple of weeks would be the thing to do. Not sure why really. I think it's part of some poorly thought-out image makeover thing he's going for but I couldn't really be bothered.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 17:47   #76
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Re: Social Greetings

I tend to not shake hands with friends who I see regularly/regard as close/"good" friends simply because I fail to see the need, I tend to shake hands with people who I don't know very well/am meeting for the first time.
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