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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 18:06   #151
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
no, friction isn't "caused" by two materials rubbing against each other, it is two materials rubbing against eachother (else there's a lingual barrier here, but that doesn't cancel the next statement being: )
gravity makes sure these materials rub against each other
What happens if I rub two things against each other in space?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 18:34   #152
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
What happens if I rub two things against each other in space?
Your eyeballs explode from lack of oxygen I believe.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 18:41   #153
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Re: A Plane Problem

Been done they actully did it

they built a giant conveyer belt and made it go the same speed as the plane (cessna or some such) would be were it not on a moving surface

it did take off in the end

i dint think it would but it did

i cant find the video of it right now but its out there someware
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 19:27   #154
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Re: A Plane Problem

I was totally with Tomkat at first, now I can picture a plane taking off from the treadmill while its wheels are turning backwards!!!
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 20:09   #155
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Re: A Plane Problem

not if it's made by the french.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 20:15   #156
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
"oh look at me i'm jbg and i can make one liners that bit faster than everyone else"
But, if his one-liner were put on a treadmill going the same speed in the opposite direction would they still just lay there?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 21:13   #157
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You don't understand either how friction works or how wheels work.
I think I do, if you read my post correctly (or if I write it correctly) what I mean is that if there is enough friction so that the aircraft is kept in place by the treadmill, (which would mean that the treadmill's backward power is actually higher then the thrust generated by the engines, it is kept in place as there is no airflow.

In all other cases it will or reach the end of the treadmill and then it is out of the model, so we don't know if it will take off or just dive off a steep narrow cliff into another cliff, or water. Or it will take off before it hits the end of the treadmill.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 21:18   #158
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion
I think I do, if you read my post correctly (or if I write it correctly) what I mean is that if there is enough friction so that the aircraft is kept in place by the treadmill, (which would mean that the treadmill's backward power is actually higher then the thrust generated by the engines, it is kept in place as there is no airflow.
Except this can't be the case, and the other two have an irrelevent distinction.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 21:22   #159
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Except this can't be the case, and the other two have an irrelevent distinction.
with enough friction, i think i mean: they don't turn
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Unread 22 Dec 2006, 11:39   #160
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Re: A Plane Problem

If there was enough friction to do what you're saying, the plane wouldn't be able to take off on a normal runway. So it's not really much of a plane, now.
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Unread 22 Dec 2006, 12:07   #161
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Re: A Plane Problem

i think traction then comes into mind...
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Unread 22 Dec 2006, 13:01   #162
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Re: A Plane Problem

So wait, you're saying that in a situation where the thrust of the engines cannot overcome the friction of the road/wheel/axle interfaces, the plane won't take off? I'm not sure I can disagree with that, except to say that in that instance we'd be dealing with a plane-shaped paperweight since if such friction existed the plane wouldn't take off under any circumstances (and as such, why would you even bother having wheels on the thing in the first place?)

It'd be cheaper to just build a bus than that plane, for all the air-travel the pair would do.
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Unread 22 Dec 2006, 13:05   #163
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Re: A Plane Problem

I think I see another way to address this.

Instead of planes, lets talk cars.
Imagine you have a car on a freewheeling treadmill - i.e. the sort they have in a garage to test cars at high "speeds". Cars rely on the friction between the tires and the ground in order to accelerate - this friction allows the wheels to exert a force. If you try to apply too much force, the friction is overcome and the wheels spin.

Anyway. When on the road, the force being exerted will either move the car or it will move the world. Clearly the car is somewhat easier to move than the world, so the car moves. In actuallity the world does move because of equal and opposite reactions and all that, but the force exerted is so miniscule in comparison to the mass of the world that to all intents and purposes nothing happens. However, when the car is on a freewheeling treadmill the treadmill requires a lot less force to move than the car, so the treadmill moves instead. Got it?

Now go back to planes. Put the plane on a freewheeling treadmill. Throttle up the plane. What force do plane wheels exert on the treadmill? None*! The plane doesn't use the friction between the wheels and the ground as its method of propulsion. It uses the friction between fast air (coming out the back of the engines) and slow air (which the air coming out the back of the engines rams into) in order to propel itself. The plane would happily roll off the end of the freewheeling treadmill.

If it's still not clear after that then I'm out of ideas.



* In actual fact, as we've mentioned before, there is a small amount of friction between the wheel bearings/axel and the wheels. The only result of this would be that the treadmill might actually start moving FORWARDS slightly.
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Unread 22 Dec 2006, 13:06   #164
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
So wait, you're saying that in a situation where the thrust of the engines cannot overcome the friction of the road/wheel/axle interfaces, the plane won't take off? I'm not sure I can disagree with that, except to say that in that instance we'd be dealing with a plane-shaped paperweight since if such friction existed the plane wouldn't take off under any circumstances (and as such, why would you even bother having wheels on the thing in the first place?)

It'd be cheaper to just build a bus than that plane, for all the air-travel the pair would do.
I think that's where he's going, and what you said is exactly what I said in an earlier post. I hope we are the ones who're getting it or we'll look silly
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Unread 22 Dec 2006, 14:01   #165
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Re: A Plane Problem

I think it's already been stated that the plane takes off when talking about the treadmill going same speed as the plane and it being a paradox when the treadmill goes the same speed as the wheels of the plane.
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Unread 22 Dec 2006, 14:55   #166
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
I think it's already been stated that the plane takes off when talking about the treadmill going same speed as the plane and it being a paradox when the treadmill goes the same speed as the wheels of the plane.
Actually, it's only paradoxical in the case when the plane is able to move. If the plane cannot move because of the action of the treadmill, then it is the wheels interpretation which makes sense and the "same speed as the plane" interpretation which is paradoxical.

Perhaps a better wording would be "The treadmill moves at the same speed as the plane would be going after the same period of having the engines on had the treadmill not been moving". That's entirely independent of the actual current speed of the plane, and therefore works under both answers.
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Unread 22 Dec 2006, 18:02   #167
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Re: A Plane Problem

You say you tutor people? What language do you use?
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Unread 23 Dec 2006, 01:22   #168
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Re: A Plane Problem

So basically it comes down to the friction between the wheels and the axel. If its stupidly large then the plane wouldnt fly, but realistically the friction is much lower so it would. (and ignoring the torque because the centre of gravity of the plane isnt level with the treadmill)
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Unread 23 Dec 2006, 01:42   #169
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Re: A Plane Problem

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Originally Posted by Dead_Meat
You say you tutor people? What language do you use?
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Unread 23 Dec 2006, 11:51   #170
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
So basically it comes down to the friction between the wheels and the axel. If its stupidly large then the plane wouldnt fly, but realistically the friction is much lower so it would. (and ignoring the torque because the centre of gravity of the plane isnt level with the treadmill)
That, and the length of the treadmill.

So in short, the answer to the question is:

Yes.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 04:14   #171
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Re: A Plane Problem

Am I banned or can I post?
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 04:15   #172
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Re: A Plane Problem

Ah good.


The plane WILL take off....


Imagine:

Conveyor belt is travelling at a speed of "infinity" miles per hour (stop being gay and ignore mass and time dilation etc)

You plonk a plane down on the conveyor belt.

The plane (of mass M) whizzes backwards.

The plane whizzes backwards past a stationary tree.

How much force needs to be applied in the opposite direction of the motion of the plane, to keep the plane stationary, level with the tree?

Simple, the same force required to de-couple the wheels from the plane.

What force is this I hear you ask?

F = uR

What is R? R is the reaction force caused by gravity. R = Mg. (g the gravitational field strength of 9.8 N/kg)

u is the co-efficient of friction between the planes wheels and the axel (between 0 and 1). Lets say this is a reasonable plane and the wheels are freely spinnable.. so 0.2

F = 0.2Mg

For a plane weighing 5000 Kg

F = 9800N

so, applying 9800 Newtons of force (from the engines) will keep a plane stationary, even when a conveyor belt is spinning the wheels backwards at an infinite speed (stop being gay about the wheels breaking).

What effect will a force of 10000N have?

Well, there is now a resultant force of 200N, and since F=Ma, this force will have the effect of accelerating the plane up the runway at:

0.04 metres per second, every second.

Wait enough seconds, and the speed of the plane will reach the required takeoff speed of 300 kph or whatever it is....

Come on!

Last edited by Arachnidman; 28 Dec 2006 at 04:26.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 13:12   #173
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Re: A Plane Problem

I did this back on page one, without assuming anything about the scale of the force between the two, which makes mine the more elegent
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 14:31   #174
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Re: A Plane Problem

There was no need for that.

The frictional force between the wheel and the track that you go on about is irrelevant - that is not what halts a rolling plane.

It is the frictional force between the wheel and the axel that is of importance, and that you neglect to talk about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Lets go over this in detail.

Let us first assume that there is a first order relationship between friction and velocity (that's y=mx + c, where y is friction, x is velocity and m and c are the coefficients of kinetic and static friction respectively, for all you GCSE maths types out there)..

This is a pretty safe assumption, because it's true.

Next: if you have a static force on an object, then it will take the same amount of time and distance to accelerate to a velocity as the object would to come to a stop from that velocity when the force opposes the movement.

For the next bit, I'll explain it as if the forces were constant (which is fine, the net impulses aren't changed by assuming this, and we're only effectively dealing with the plane at two points, when it's stopped and when it's taking off, so we're not losing any particularly useful information).

Lets call the force from the engines E.

Let us call the (constant in this example) friction force F.

The net force when taking off is E - F.

The net force when landing, from the wheels alone (no breaks, or flaps or whatnot) is F.

Now, let us assume that the plane doesn't need breaks or flaps when landing. It just stops of its own accord.

In this case E - F = F

E = 2F.

Would it take off on a rolling runway made of the same materials? Lets investigate!

The friction between the wheels and the track works as if the velocity was twice what it usually is, so y(2) = 2mx + c, not just mx + c. However, if c is greater than 0, which it is, y(2) is less than y, because 2mx + c is less than 2mx + c + c, obviously.

So, the friction in that case would be less than 2F, so there would still be some resultant force on the plane, so it would still accelerate. It would still take off, albeit over a very long time if c is small.

Remember that this is assuming that a plane will just roll to a halt once you've got it down on the ground.

Do I really have to go into the real world, where you have to use breaks and whatnot, in which case E - F = F + K, where K is the retardation force provided by the breaks (etc), and is in all likelihood larger than F?

Please say I don't.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 14:47   #175
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
There was no need for that.
there was (and still is) no need for this thread to be four pages long and counting.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 16:23   #176
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Re: A Plane Problem

I am surprised this thread hasn't made the world implode under the vast amounts of intelligence that it has gathered in one place.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 16:32   #177
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
There was no need for that.

The frictional force between the wheel and the track that you go on about is irrelevant - that is not what halts a rolling plane.

It is the frictional force between the wheel and the axel that is of importance, and that you neglect to talk about.
I didn't neglect it. I included it with the other sources of (speed of track dependent) friction.

In modelling terms, there's no difference between the friction between the road and the wheel, and the friction twixt wheel and axel, if they increase with respect to velocity in the same way, which they do.

Like I said, more elegent.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 17:37   #178
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Re: A Plane Problem

You do realize that rolling resistance (a static frictional force) is independant of velocity don't you?

You are confusing this with the viscal frictional force caused by air resistance, which indeed is a function of velocity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I didn't neglect it. I included it with the other sources of (speed of track dependent) friction.

In modelling terms, there's no difference between the friction between the road and the wheel, and the friction twixt wheel and axel, if they increase with respect to velocity in the same way, which they do.

Like I said, more elegent.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 17:42   #179
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Re: A Plane Problem

You do realise it makes more sense to put what you're quoting first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
You do realize that rolling resistance (a static frictional force) is independant of velocity don't you?

You are confusing this with the viscal frictional force caused by air resistance, which indeed is a function of velocity.
My argument doesn't work without considering static frictional forces, and the fact that I took them into account without making a comparison of scale of static and kinetic frictional forces once again demonstrates to me that my argument was more elegent.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 17:49   #180
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Re: A Plane Problem

But you just posted a minute ago that you somehow "included" the friction between the wheel and the axel (and between the wheels and the track) with the "other (speed of track dependent)" frictional forces.

What are these "other (speed of track dependent)" frictional forces you talk of?

I put it to you, that the frictional force caused by the wheel on the track, is not velocity dependent. And you are saying otherwise. This is quite a fundamental modeling flaw - which isn't very elegant at all is it.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 17:52   #181
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Re: A Plane Problem

I love this thread, they're not even arguing about whether or not it will take off, they agree, they're debating which one's formula is more elegant...bravo.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 18:10   #182
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
I put it to you, that the frictional force caused by the wheel on the track, is not velocity dependent. And you are saying otherwise. This is quite a fundamental modeling flaw - which isn't very elegant at all is it.
I put it to you that I modelled the sum frictional forces upon the plane as a combination of velocity dependent and velocity independent ones, which, obviously, includes all possible frictional forces, and proved that it would take off without having to assume that the significant frictional force was velocity independent and without having to assume it had any particular scale of value.

The assumptions I made were that there were frictional forces acting on the plane, and that these were sufficient to make it come to a complete stop in a simiar timeframe to the time the plane takes to accelerate.

The first is obvious, the second is a statement that simplifies mathematical comparisons between takeoff and landing significantly, while biasing any answer against the one I am expecting.

Given that you can prove that the plane will take off from the above, actually determining which element of the frictional force is more significant, and the numerical value of it, has no purpose at all. You chose to involve estimated values, which is not only inelegent, but also a poor argument, as there may be a significant difference in outcome if you chose different numbers.

To put it another way,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
What are these "other (speed of track dependent)" frictional forces you talk of?
I don't know! It doesn't matter in the slightest! That's what makes it so fantastic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
I put it to you, that the frictional force caused by the wheel on the track, is not velocity dependent. And you are saying otherwise. This is quite a fundamental modeling flaw - which isn't very elegant at all is it.
What I am doing is assuming the minimum amount possible for it to be a valid frictional model - viz, that friction is present. I have demonstrated that this is sufficient.

Last edited by MrL_JaKiri; 28 Dec 2006 at 18:17.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 18:17   #183
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
I love this thread, they're not even arguing about whether or not it will take off, they agree, they're debating which one's formula is more elegant...bravo.
We're not debating. I'm stating what is true, and he is engaged in a horrific spiral of miscomprehension and stupidity.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 18:20   #184
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
I am surprised this thread hasn't made the world implode under the vast amounts of intelligence that it has gathered in one place.
I'm not sure if a thread where (at least initially) half the participants don't seem to understand how the wheels of a plane work is a good candidate for world-implosion via excessive concentrations of intelligence.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 18:23   #185
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
I put it to you, that the frictional force caused by the wheel on the track, is not velocity dependent.
Without skirting around the question with self contradicting chat, can you please tell us if you agree or disagree with this statement?
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 18:33   #186
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Re: A Plane Problem

No seriously guys, I saw him and he's a man made out of straw. I know, how crazy is that!
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 18:35   #187
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
Without skirting around the question with self contradicting chat, can you please tell us if you agree or disagree with this statement?
I don't have to agree or not. My solution works in either case.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 19:04   #188
Arachnidman
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Re: A Plane Problem

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I don't have to agree or not. My solution works in either case.
Forget the "solution" (which is naive).

What say you on the statement?
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 19:11   #189
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
Forget the "solution" (which is naive).
If it's wrong, demonstrate it's wrong and don't flounce around like an idiot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
What say you on the statement?
I don't think it's relevent, that's what I say.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 19:12   #190
Yahwe
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman

I put it to you,
:groan:
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 19:36   #191
jt25man
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Re: A Plane Problem

Did either of you take into count whether or not the pilot was small and lightweight versus some humongous person that could have there own orbit?
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 19:36   #192
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
Did either of you take into count whether or not the pilot was small and lightweight versus some humongous person that could have there own orbit.
I didn't know that your wife was a pilot
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 19:38   #193
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Re: A Plane Problem

What if the plane was filled with neutron stars?
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 19:40   #194
jt25man
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I didn't know that your wife was a pilot
Wow, what a surprise, Yahwe doing a one-liner insult flame.

Edit: Seriously, do you think that impresses anyone?
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 19:43   #195
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by jt25man
Wow, what a surprise, Yahwe doing a one-liner insult flame.

Edit: Seriously, do you think that impresses anyone?
I was almost as impressed as that time your fat wife fell on me and drove me halfway through to china.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 19:44   #196
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I was almost as impressed as that time your fat wife fell on me and drove me halfway through to china.
See, that's a good one-liner, you should really pay more attention to JBG.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 19:50   #197
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I don't think it's relevent, that's what I say.
Relevent to what? the solution? I thought I told you to forget about the solution.

You know, that I know, that you know you will seem as though you are contradicting yourself if you answer the question correctly, which is why you are avoiding it.

Clever.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 19:56   #198
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnidman
Relevent to what? the solution? I thought I told you to forget about the solution.
I thought I told you to point out what was wrong with it, if you considered it to be incorrect. Since you appear to be stuck over an irrelevent issue, I must assume that you're just being a jackass.
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 20:02   #199
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
page 5
Hi Horny!
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Unread 28 Dec 2006, 20:03   #200
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I thought I told you to point out what was wrong with it, if you considered it to be incorrect. Since you appear to be stuck over an irrelevent issue, I must assume that you're just being a jackass.
You know, that I know, that you know you will seem as though you are contradicting yourself if you answer the question correctly, which is why you are avoiding it.
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