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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 01:43   #101
wu_trax
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Re: A Plane Problem

i wont read this whole thread, but no, it cant take off. The airflow around the wings make a plane fly, not the engine. If the plane doesnt move forward because of the treadmill, there is no airflow, so the plane cant take off. It really doesnt matter how fast the tires are moving.
If you somehow manage to move the air around the plane (say, by moving the entire treadmill with the plane on it forward fast enough, but that would be pretty stupid ) then it would take off.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 01:44   #102
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Re: A Plane Problem

I've read that planes are roughly analogous to a block of wood. Can someone confirm this?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 01:55   #103
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Re: A Plane Problem

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Originally Posted by wu_trax
i wont read this whole thread, but no, it cant take off. The airflow around the wings make a plane fly, not the engine. If the plane doesnt move forward because of the treadmill, there is no airflow, so the plane cant take off. It really doesnt matter how fast the tires are moving.
If you somehow manage to move the air around the plane (say, by moving the entire treadmill with the plane on it forward fast enough, but that would be pretty stupid ) then it would take off.
The problem does not say that the treadmill prevents the plane from moving forward. The wheels don't propell the plane forward they merely rotate to allow the plane from skiding along the ground. What propells the plane forward is the push it exerts on the air around it. The treadmill doesn't effect this. The plane will move down the runway/treadmill just as it otherwise would, unimpeded by the movement of the treadmill. They are not interrelated at all.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 02:00   #104
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Re: A Plane Problem

Can't we just get a giant treadmill (or a really small aeroplane) and sort this out once and for all?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 02:08   #105
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Re: A Plane Problem

A blimp is put on a treadmill. The blimp is fitted with wheels. The wheels keep the blimp from bumping the ground. When the propellers begin on the blimp and the blimp begins to move forward, the treadmill runs at equal speed in the opposite direction. Do you expect that the blimp will stand still relative to the air around it?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 02:14   #106
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Re: A Plane Problem

But what if God demanded that the plane not take off? What then could we say with our "science" and our "reason"?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 02:21   #107
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Re: A Plane Problem

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
But what if God demanded that the plane not take off? What then could we say with our "science" and our "reason"?
did God also give Tomkat cancer?!
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 02:29   #108
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
A blimp is put on a treadmill. The blimp is fitted with wheels. The wheels keep the blimp from bumping the ground. When the propellers begin on the blimp and the blimp begins to move forward, the treadmill runs at equal speed in the opposite direction. Do you expect that the blimp will stand still relative to the air around it?

a blimp is filled witn a gas lighter than air .. and takes off by this means, its rotors are used for sideways and forward and back motion, if the blimp is on wheels and as long as those wheels are connected to the treadmil in some way .. it would not take off .. but mainly because this is a different physical way to *take off* .
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 02:49   #109
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Re: A Plane Problem

If anyone an incorrect answer in this thread again without having first read the entire thread I will not only ban you I will hunt you down, cut you into little pieces and feed you to my dogs.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 03:13   #110
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Re: A Plane Problem

dags
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 08:40   #111
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Re: A Plane Problem

Is it foggy?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 10:29   #112
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Re: A Plane Problem

Hooray!

Despite me and Jakiri explaining the answer within the first few posts, there were enough people who don't understand physics (tomkat) to prolong the thread to 3 pages

Are there still people who don't understand?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 10:38   #113
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Are there still people who don't understand?
I'm not convinced TomKat does.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 11:24   #114
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The problem does not say that the treadmill prevents the plane from moving forward. The wheels don't propell the plane forward they merely rotate to allow the plane from skiding along the ground. What propells the plane forward is the push it exerts on the air around it. The treadmill doesn't effect this. The plane will move down the runway/treadmill just as it otherwise would, unimpeded by the movement of the treadmill. They are not interrelated at all.
So the air is moving through the jetengine twice as fast because the plane is standing on a treadmill?
the treadmill moves the mass of the plane backwards (as it is standing on it and not flying yet). This is compensated by its engine moving it forward. It really doesnt matter if the engine moves the tires directly like in a car or if it blows air through a turbine; on a treadmill moving backwards you would need twice as much forward thrust as on a normal runway.
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Last edited by wu_trax; 21 Dec 2006 at 11:35.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 11:29   #115
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
So the air is moving through the jetengine twice as fast because the plane is standing on a treadmill?
The plane moves because the wheels are not driving the plane.

The wheels on a plane during takeoff have as little friction as possible and are completely unrelated to the actual speed of the plane, which is wholly reliant on the engines.

The plane takes off as normal.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 11:33   #116
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
So the air is moving through the jetengine twice as fast because the plane is standing on a treadmill?
No. The treadmill has absolutely zero effect on the movement of the aircraft through the air, which is the whole crux of the problem.

Imagine the plane standing on the treadmill and revving it's engines up to a speed to sustain a speed of 10mph. What happens? The plane will be pulling itself through the air with a speed of 10mph and thus be moving forward. The treadmill will be rotating backwards at the same speed, so that's 10mph in the opposite direction, or -10mph. The difference between these is covered by the wheels, which will rotate at a speed of 20mph.

As such, the plane is moving forwards at a speed of 10mph, and creating airflow as per normal.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 11:36   #117
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Re: A Plane Problem

see edit
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 11:43   #118
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
the treadmill moves the mass of the plane backwards (as it is standing on it and not flying yet).
No.

The treadmill moves the wheels NOT the plane.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 11:50   #119
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Re: A Plane Problem

the plane is standing on the treadmill, its not flying yet.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 11:57   #120
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
the plane is standing on the treadmill, its not flying yet.
It makes no difference. The airplane engines don't work differently based on whether or not the airplane's wheels are actually touching the ground.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 12:18   #121
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Re: A Plane Problem

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Originally Posted by wu_trax
the plane is standing on the treadmill, its not flying yet.
If the plane isn't moving the treadmill isn't moving.
The engines move the plane not the wheels.
The treadmill only affects the wheels not the engines.
The wheels have no affect on the movement of the plane.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 12:24   #122
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Re: A Plane Problem

so why don't they use this magical treadmill on aircraft carriers?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 12:40   #123
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Re: A Plane Problem

ok, apparently this question has been on the internet for ages. After some looking i see i was wrong. The correct solution is that plane wouldnt take off, it would explode because the tieres and the treadmill both would have an infinte speed and no material can survive that
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 12:48   #124
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
so why don't they use this magical treadmill on aircraft carriers?
Because, and i'll repeat this for you as you obviously haven't read the thread, the plane takes off as normal.
the wheels spin twice as fast but doesn't affect the take-off.

Jeez.

I emailed the problem to my housemate (a physics graduate) and he replied within a couple of minutes:

"yes the plane would take off, the wheels would just spin round but the engines are what actually make it move"

Once you get over the incorrect idea that the wheels actually drive the plane then it's pretty simple.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 13:09   #125
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Re: A Plane Problem

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Originally Posted by wu_trax
ok, apparently this question has been on the internet for ages. After some looking i see i was wrong. The correct solution is that plane wouldnt take off, it would explode because the tieres and the treadmill both would have an infinte speed and no material can survive that
They'd only be going infinitely fast if you interpret the question in a questionable (lol) way, surely?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 13:37   #126
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Because, and i'll repeat this for you as you obviously haven't read the thread, the plane takes off as normal.
the wheels spin twice as fast but doesn't affect the take-off.

Jeez.

I emailed the problem to my housemate (a physics graduate) and he replied within a couple of minutes:

"yes the plane would take off, the wheels would just spin round but the engines are what actually make it move"

Once you get over the incorrect idea that the wheels actually drive the plane then it's pretty simple.
yeh idd I thought about that when I went to get some food

anyway, the speed of the treadmill ALWAYS matches the speed of the plane, so imo it won't get off the ground as the plane needs to gather speed and thus movement before it can lift up..
and I did read "most" of the thread, just disagreeing with what ppl have said

the engines would indeed make the plane move, but until a certain speed is reached it will stay on the ground, and it will not reach that certain speed because the threadmil works against it
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 13:47   #127
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Re: A Plane Problem

no - the treadmill works against the wheels.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 13:51   #128
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Re: A Plane Problem

you're ignoring gravity?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 13:53   #129
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
you're ignoring gravity?
Gravity does nothing here except produce a normal reaction from the track, and the friction that implies (which has been taken into account in many different ways).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
the engines would indeed make the plane move, but until a certain speed is reached it will stay on the ground
The amount of friction is largely constant (the velocity dependent part is much less than the constant resistance at any realistic speed), so if it can accelerate initially, why can it not subsequently?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 13:56   #130
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
the engines would indeed make the plane move, but until a certain speed is reached it will stay on the ground, and it will not reach that certain speed because the threadmil works against it
If, in your mind, the plane can reach some arbitrary speed but go no further because the treadmill is working against it, how can it reach that speed at all? Surely in your vision of this, if the treadmill is working against the plane then it can't begin moving at all?

Edit: Beaten by Mark =(
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 13:57   #131
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Re: A Plane Problem

there's the threadmill working in one direction (horizontal) and gravity working in another (vertical)
the plane tries to both work horizontal in the opposite direction as the treadmill, because it needs to gather speed to be able to work vertical in the opposite direction of gravity

the plane will be pushed against the ground until it gains a significant horizontal speed, which it won't get because the treadmill makes sure it doesn't
to think the speed of the wheels balance out the speed of the treadmill and compare it to a waterplane or an "iceplane" or even a plane that hangs on a wire in the air is "plain" (hah see what I did there?) silly because a waterplane/iceplane needs to gather speed before it can lift off.. it's like trying to get an iceplane in the air that's trying to lift up with a rising runway (like a mountain) with engines that will never gain enough speed to counter-act the levity of the runway and gravity
it just won't work, gravity helps the treadmill

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
If, in your mind, the plane can reach some arbitrary speed but go no further because the treadmill is working against it, how can it reach that speed at all? Surely in your vision of this, if the treadmill is working against the plane then it can't begin moving at all?

Edit: Beaten by Mark =(
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The amount of friction is largely constant (the velocity dependent part is much less than the constant resistance at any realistic speed), so if it can accelerate initially, why can it not subsequently?
no I was wrong, I didn't read the question right and thought the treadmill had a constant speed. after reading the question again my opinion is it won't get any speed at all
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Last edited by cura; 21 Dec 2006 at 14:23.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 14:03   #132
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
so why don't they use this magical treadmill on aircraft carriers?
Because having ground crews and signallers standing on a fast moving treadmill probably wouldn't be terribly safe.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 14:33   #133
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Re: A Plane Problem

Ok here's how I understand what Mark is saying (I'm prepared to be corrected!):

Imagine the plane is stationary at the end of the runway, but the treadmill is already moving. So the wheels on the plane are turning, but the plane itself isn't moving.

Now imagine the plane goes through normal takeoff proceedure and the treadmill speed stays constant. I think we can all agree that under these circumstances the plane would take off.

Now add in the treadmill matching the speed of the plane. The only way it would NOT take off is if the friction from the wheels (strictly the friction from the wheel bearings) as the speed of the wheels increases is sufficient to counteract the thrust of the engines. Which clearly isn't remotely close to being the case, or planes wouldn't take off anyway and wheels would be pointless.

So the plane takes off.

Am I right Mark?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 14:46   #134
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
there's the threadmill working in one direction (horizontal) and gravity working in another (vertical)
the plane tries to both work horizontal in the opposite direction as the treadmill, because it needs to gather speed to be able to work vertical in the opposite direction of gravity

the plane will be pushed against the ground until it gains a significant horizontal speed, which it won't get because the treadmill makes sure it doesn't
to think the speed of the wheels balance out the speed of the treadmill and compare it to a waterplane or an "iceplane" or even a plane that hangs on a wire in the air is "plain" (hah see what I did there?) silly because a waterplane/iceplane needs to gather speed before it can lift off.. it's like trying to get an iceplane in the air that's trying to lift up with a rising runway (like a mountain) with engines that will never gain enough speed to counter-act the levity of the runway and gravity
it just won't work, gravity helps the treadmill
The movement of the treadmill isn't causing the plane to move (significantly, provided the plane generates enough thrust to counteract the friction between wheels and axel which is a given since it can take off in any other scenario and would need to do this anyway), it's causing the wheels of the plane to move which aren't connected to any drive. So the wheels are spinning away under the plane at twice the speed of the treadmill (assuming it's keeping up with the speed of the plane) but the plane just has the frictional force of the wheels to overcome (which, as stated, it needs to do in any other situation), so accelerates and takes off pretty much as normal.

So would it be true that no additional thrust is required for the plane to take off?


Edit: I think the treadmill-rollerskates-and-a-rope thing made it clearer for me from that link whoever posted
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 14:51   #135
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Re: A Plane Problem

Another example:

Imagine the plane has no engines and the treadmill moves forward, always at the required speed for takeoff. Would the plane ever take off? No. All that would be accelerating the plane would be the (minimal) friction from the wheel bearings. As soon as air resistance began to take effect that would be canceled out.

Now swap that around (so the minimal acceleration is now minimal deceleration) and the air resistance is now hugely negative (thrust from the engines)* instead of slightly positive and ask the question again: would the plane ever take off? Yes!



*I know this is not entirely clean as there is still forward air resistance but the engines are designed to overcome it, for obvious reasons.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 14:51   #136
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
So would it be true that no additional thrust is required for the plane to take off?
You'd need more thrust to overcome the friction. So it depends on whether you take it as a "perfect" example with no friction or not.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 14:52   #137
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Ok here's how I understand what Mark is saying (I'm prepared to be corrected!):

Imagine the plane is stationary at the end of the runway, but the treadmill is already moving. So the wheels on the plane are turning, but the plane itself isn't moving.

Now imagine the plane goes through normal takeoff proceedure and the treadmill speed stays constant. I think we can all agree that under these circumstances the plane would take off.
yeh

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
The only way it would NOT take off is if the friction from the wheels (strictly the friction from the wheel bearings) as the speed of the wheels increases is sufficient to counteract the thrust of the engines. Which clearly it isn't, or planes wouldn't take off anyway and wheels would be pointless.

So the plane takes off.

Am I right Mark?
I don't think I understand that particular reasoning, the friction of the wheels is caused by gravity and gravity makes sure the plane stays on the ground untill it reaches a certain speed and can lift off.
untill that speed is reached gravity will cause friction and keep the plane on the ground,
with the plane being stuck against the ground the friction of the wheels with the treadmill will make sure the plane doesn't move imo

the only point where the friction with the ground has no more effect is when it is airborn, at which point the only friction is with the air, but it can't get airborn because it can't get any speed
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 14:54   #138
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Re: A Plane Problem

Read my second example Cura.
Expecting the treadmill to prevent the plane accelerating assumes that when the wheels are traveling double the speed of the plane, the wheel bearings exert an opposing force equal in strength to the thrust of the engines. Clearly this isn't so.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 14:57   #139
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
I don't think I understand that particular reasoning, the friction of the wheels is caused by gravity
No it's not.
Friction is caused by two materials rubbing against each other.


EDIT and if it was gravity stopping the plane taking off - then no plane would be able to take off ever anyway.

Again - the treadmill only affects the wheels. The wheels don't affect the plane.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 15:01   #140
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
The movement of the treadmill isn't causing the plane to move (significantly, provided the plane generates enough thrust to counteract the friction between wheels and axel which is a given since it can take off in any other scenario and would need to do this anyway), it's causing the wheels of the plane to move which aren't connected to any drive. So the wheels are spinning away under the plane at twice the speed of the treadmill (assuming it's keeping up with the speed of the plane) but the plane just has the frictional force of the wheels to overcome (which, as stated, it needs to do in any other situation), so accelerates and takes off pretty much as normal.

So would it be true that no additional thrust is required for the plane to take off?


Edit: I think the treadmill-rollerskates-and-a-rope thing made it clearer for me from that link whoever posted
hmmm, but the treadmill-rollerskates isn't as magical as the treadmill in this question tho? if you pull somebody on a rope that's standing on the treadmill the wheels of the rollerskates will go faster than the treadmill, no? (if not, why not?)

I think if I'm wrong I'm either having trouble with visualisation, or if I'm right visualisation is making it easier for me to understand
imagine a plane in said scenario, now imagine it moving.. you see the plane moving right?
now look at its wheels, what are they doing?
imo the only point where the plane can move is if the wheels are moving faster than the surface it's "rolling" on :/
else it would be floating, and if it's floating gravity is either gone or the air is helping it float and it's already airborn
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 15:02   #141
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Ok here's how I understand what Mark is saying (I'm prepared to be corrected!):

Imagine the plane is stationary at the end of the runway, but the treadmill is already moving. So the wheels on the plane are turning, but the plane itself isn't moving.

Now imagine the plane goes through normal takeoff proceedure and the treadmill speed stays constant. I think we can all agree that under these circumstances the plane would take off.

Now add in the treadmill matching the speed of the plane. The only way it would NOT take off is if the friction from the wheels (strictly the friction from the wheel bearings) as the speed of the wheels increases is sufficient to counteract the thrust of the engines. Which clearly isn't remotely close to being the case, or planes wouldn't take off anyway and wheels would be pointless.

So the plane takes off.

Am I right Mark?
Let's make this more difficult, and add in relativity.
So, when mister pilot turns up the throttle the engines start to displace air, and the big plane starts to move relative to the air.
But then there's the evil threadmill, running in the opposite direction of the wheels.
But mister pilot is amused because the takeoff is not affected by the relative speed to the threadmill, but only to the relative speed to the air. And since the threadmill has no effect on the speed of the air, even if running in the opposite direction, the plane will take off just fine.

So we have a mile-long threadmill, and a plane happilly taking off over it because no matter how fast the threadmill makes the wheels turn, the engines cleave through the air anyway.

Now, I begin to wonder what happens if due to a poor calibration of the threadmill the speed of the threadmill begins to reach the speed of light. Then the wheels of the plane would spin around at the speed of light. Now, as we know when things approach the speed of light, their relative mass reaches infinity. I don't think a plane could take off with wheels attached to it that weigh an infinite amount of pounds.

So, the answer to this whole problem lies in the calibration of the threadmill. And who is responsible for calibration threadmills? Exactly! The tech crew.
Now sadly I do not have any numbers about the performance of the tech crew that calibrates the threadmill, but if anyone could toss them in I am sure we can accurately solve this issue. Perhaps we even get a nobel prize for only spending three pages of a thread for solving it!
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 15:12   #142
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Another example:

Imagine the plane has no engines and the treadmill moves forward, always at the required speed for takeoff. Would the plane ever take off? No. All that would be accelerating the plane would be the (minimal) friction from the wheel bearings. As soon as air resistance began to take effect that would be canceled out.

Now swap that around (so the minimal acceleration is now minimal deceleration) and the air resistance is now hugely negative (thrust from the engines)* instead of slightly positive and ask the question again: would the plane ever take off? Yes!



*I know this is not entirely clean as there is still forward air resistance but the engines are designed to overcome it, for obvious reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Expecting the treadmill to prevent the plane accelerating assumes that when the wheels are traveling double the speed of the plane, the wheel bearings exert an opposing force equal in strength to the thrust of the engines. Clearly this isn't so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
You'd need more thrust to overcome the friction. So it depends on whether you take it as a "perfect" example with no friction or not.
exactly, there's always a friction as the plane is not "hoovering" around the wheels but it's attached to it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
No it's not.
Friction is caused by two materials rubbing against each other.


EDIT and if it was gravity stopping the plane taking off - then no plane would be able to take off ever anyway.

Again - the treadmill only affects the wheels. The wheels don't affect the plane.
no, friction isn't "caused" by two materials rubbing against each other, it is two materials rubbing against eachother (else there's a lingual barrier here, but that doesn't cancel the next statement being: )
gravity makes sure these materials rub against each other, so either way (lingual barrier or not) it causes friction, directly or indirectly

the wheels do affect the plane as the plane is attached to the wheels and not hoovering around it
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 15:14   #143
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
hmmm, but the treadmill-rollerskates isn't as magical as the treadmill in this question tho? if you pull somebody on a rope that's standing on the treadmill the wheels of the rollerskates will go faster than the treadmill, no? (if not, why not?)
Which is why the problem states the treadmill is going the same speed as the plane not the wheels
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 15:16   #144
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by cura
the wheels do affect the plane as the plane is attached to the wheels and not hoovering around it
but the wheels have no effect on the actual movement of the plane.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 15:19   #145
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Which is why the problem states the treadmill is going the same speed as the plane not the wheels
hmmm
then it's an impossibly magical treadmill?
I mean impossible as in not bound to the laws of physics?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 15:30   #146
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Re: A Plane Problem

The plane would not fly.

Its too foggy, all flights are cancelled. Read the news, bozo's.
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 15:32   #147
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Re: A Plane Problem

"Once the pilot fires up the engines, the plane moves forward at pretty much the usual speed relative to the ground--and more importantly the air--regardless of how fast the conveyor belt is moving backward. This generates lift on the wings, and the plane takes off. All the conveyor belt does is, as you correctly conclude, make the plane's wheels spin madly."

"If the plane's forward speed is 100 miles per hour, the conveyor rolls 100 MPH backward, and the wheels rotate at 200 MPH. Assuming you've got Indy-car-quality tires and wheel bearings, no problem. However, some versions put matters this way: "The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels at any given time, moving in the opposite direction of rotation." This language leads to a paradox: If the plane moves forward at 5 MPH, then its wheels will do likewise, and the treadmill will go 5 MPH backward. But if the treadmill is going 5 MPH backward, then the wheels are really turning 10 MPH forward. But if the wheels are going 10 MPH forward . . . Soon the foolish have persuaded themselves that the treadmill must operate at infinite speed. Nonsense. The question thus stated asks the impossible -- simply put, that A = A + 5 -- and so cannot be framed in this way. Everything clear now? Maybe not. But believe this: The plane takes off."


I'm convinced, I was looking at it from the "paradox" point of view :P
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 15:35   #148
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
The plane would not fly.

Its too foggy, all flights are cancelled. Read the news, bozo's.
Who ever would have thought to do such an obvious joke other than the people earlier in the thread who did it?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 16:02   #149
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Re: A Plane Problem

excuse me mr brilliance, i read through pages 1-2 and didnt see it, i am sorry your eminence, forgive me for breathing.

forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me

alternatively just fuk off?
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Unread 21 Dec 2006, 16:03   #150
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Re: A Plane Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
excuse me mr brilliance, i read through pages 1-2 and didnt see it, i am sorry your eminence, forgive me for breathing.

forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me forgive me

alternatively just fuk off?
Obviously we're not deserving of your laissez-faire brilliance.
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