The Nature Of Consciousness and feeling

[Deffeh]

Is what makes us who we are, and what were made of defined by what we do? Or is it defined by what we think when we do it?

I don't know, if i can explain this properly. If someone was to kill themselves, but didn't really want to do it when they pulled the trigger, but overcame this and did it anyway, were they really suicidal?
Do our actions reflect on who we are when no one is watching? Or is it only affecting how you think of yourself, and how authentically you can tell a story?

Im not sure where im going with this, or why. My head is very, very sore, and as ive mentioned, i'm very very trapped. I sort of paced around for a bit and then got a bit faster (and you should see the speed im typing at right now) and it kept hurting.. i fell onto my beanbag and grabbed my head, and squeezed, and the first thought i had was "how cliched". Not because my head was hurting but because of the way i was acting. But its not as if anyone was watching, its not as if i taped it, its not as if its something im going to repeat word for word to a friend, family member, shrink etc.. but the fact id done it and that id known id done it. I can't convince myself anymore about the difference between feeling and thinking, and thinking im feeling. I think, i'm losing it.

[skiddy]

You need a drink.

[SilverSmoke]

I recommend a Linking Park album

[KraKto$is8]

you need a massage

[Deepflow]

you arent COMPLETELY happy are you? where are your friends, what are you doing with your days?

id suggest you get out and do something, even if it is just a few drinks at the pub. But really, i think you have to get out of your situation temporarily at least. Which you seem to be doing.

but what the hell do i know?

[queball]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

Is what makes us who we are, and what were made of defined by what we do? Or is it defined by what we think when we do it?

Simple answer: we're defined by anything that defines us. You can define yourself, perhaps no-one might listen. Though it sounds like you have some vague idea of self that you're working from, like: people can be bad (so what defines them to be bad?), and people can be nice (so how do we define that?), etc. So try to go backwards and question these ideas too cos they define the context of the question. It seems a lot of these things have evolved similarly to law, with a similar kind of purpose.

I don't know, if i can explain this properly. If someone was to kill themselves, but didn't really want to do it when they pulled the trigger, but overcame this and did it anyway, were they really suicidal?
Do our actions reflect on who we are when no one is watching? Or is it only affecting how you think of yourself, and how authentically you can tell a story?

Is someone suicidal even if they have very small doubts? I'd say yeah. The whole proposition of "really suicidal" seems a bit fuzzy to me. There is indecisiveness but usually in the moment you neither particularly want or don't want anything; these are things revealed when talking to someone later about their regrets and so on. If you kill yourself I guarantee you won't regret it.

Im not sure where im going with this, or why. My head is very, very sore, and as ive mentioned, i'm very very trapped. I sort of paced around for a bit and then got a bit faster (and you should see the speed im typing at right now) and it kept hurting.. i fell onto my beanbag and grabbed my head, and squeezed, and the first thought i had was "how cliched". Not because my head was hurting but because of the way i was acting. But its not as if anyone was watching, its not as if i taped it, its not as if its something im going to repeat word for word to a friend, family member, shrink etc.. but the fact id done it and that id known id done it. I can't convince myself anymore about the difference between feeling and thinking, and thinking im feeling. I think, i'm losing it.

A lot of things seem cliched, I wouldn't worry too much about being original in your reactions to headaches. Why does it matter if you're thinking or feeling? Try to do some maths, or play some go, or get some sleep.

[Dante Hicks]

An object is defined on various levels, depending on the observer.

You view yourself one way (based on introspection), your friends view you another (based on your actions), we view you another (based on your posts), etc. I don't think either one is particularly "truer", just perhaps more relevent or more fundamental. I'm not sure which is "truer".

The only real test for anything like this is how useful it is on making predictions. If someone goes round acting suicidal to gain attention (but everyone believes them) and then they kill themselves, arguably the external observers comments are more accurate (in a predictive sense) than the individual themselves.

I'm not sure what you mean between feeling and thinking. I find that whole area a little weird. I had a long conversation recently with someone who tried to convince me of my over-rationalism, but I didn't really understand what she was talking about so I just smiled and asked what GCSE's she was doing.

[Deffeh]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

An object is defined on various levels, depending on the observer.

You view yourself one way (based on introspection), your friends view you another (based on your actions), we view you another (based on your posts), etc. I don't think either one is particularly "truer", just perhaps more relevent or more fundamental. I'm not sure which is "truer".

The only real test for anything like this is how useful it is on making predictions. If someone goes round acting suicidal to gain attention (but everyone believes them) and then they kill themselves, arguably the external observers comments are more accurate (in a predictive sense) than the individual themselves.

I'm not sure what you mean between feeling and thinking. I find that whole area a little weird. I had a long conversation recently with someone who tried to convince me of my over-rationalism, but I didn't really understand what she was talking about so I just smiled and asked what GCSE's she was doing.

Originally Posted by queball

Simple answer: we're defined by anything that defines us. You can define yourself, perhaps no-one might listen. Though it sounds like you have some vague idea of self that you're working from, like: people can be bad (so what defines them to be bad?), and people can be nice (so how do we define that?), etc. So try to go backwards and question these ideas too cos they define the context of the question. It seems a lot of these things have evolved similarly to law, with a similar kind of purpose.


Is someone suicidal even if they have very small doubts? I'd say yeah. The whole proposition of "really suicidal" seems a bit fuzzy to me. There is indecisiveness but usually in the moment you neither particularly want or don't want anything; these are things revealed when talking to someone later about their regrets and so on. If you kill yourself I guarantee you won't regret it.


A lot of things seem cliched, I wouldn't worry too much about being original in your reactions to headaches. Why does it matter if you're thinking or feeling? Try to do some maths, or play some go, or get some sleep.

The suicide part was one example, a risky one to use considering presumptions. The same could have been said about homosexuality - if you had gay sex, but didnt want to, are you gay, etc? (I chose suicide because id rather you thought i was suicidal than gay). Its not headaches as such, its this manic buzzing which i cant sit still to. Ive not been going through a very nice patch. And its not about being original, its about being true. I honestly dont know what i want from myself, my studies, my social relationships, even my sandwiches. But its not just that, i dont know where to start. I'm also well aware i need to talk to someone, preferrably a friend. Its not as if i dont have friends, finding a pair of ears is easy. Its not as if i have trouble talking, (lo this post) i just dont believe truly anyone cares. And i dont mind, because when i'm honest, i'm the same, if not worse.

Ive come back to where i started now; this is what im trying to say, this place where feeling and thinking are completely blurred. Recently, someone i knew badly hurt themselves, and came to me for help. I dropped everything and took the person to the hospital, paid for the taxis etc, waited while they were seen to. I tried to do the right thing. I did do the right thing (this is not a bragging session). But, my point is.. is this caring? I certainly "cared", but was i caring? Cause the gods honest truth is that i didnt care. Not didnt care as in selfish "wish i was back in my room / im bored" caring. And it wasnt me "keeping a cool head" or "remaining focussed". I did it because i should have, no other reason. You shouldnt get the impression that i dont like this person either, they are a friend, but i just.. couldnt care. Nor was it something i did for praise, as its never been mentioned to anyone.

But its not just that. I feel that im predetermining my actions to make them seem more extreme, more interesting, if i think about them even a split second before i do them. I feel like im choosing what i do, rather than doing what i do. I dont honestly know how better to explain this, than something like frowning alone, or being sad at a film or something alone. I feel as if im compliling evidence, helping my case, trying perhaps to convince myself that im "sad" or "unhappy". Two words which in periods like this i have absolutely no comprehension of.

I think you guys went too heavy on the suicide thing. To reitirate my point, i was referring to when you do one thing, but think another, what have you done, what were you, etc? Im not sure ive made a lot of sense anyway

[Cynical Oracle]

I understand your confilict Deffeh, and as you told me last time I had one.

I have them myself. For me, life is a rollercoaster, and probably for you too. Your, like me, a manic depressive (or however you spell it in English). Feelings go upp and down, and you have a hard time grasping what's going on. You cannot controll this, and this is infact the part where you know that life is shit at the moment, but your reasoning tells you that it's just a state of mind. It has to work itself out. Best thing is to do something extreme that won't kill you or send you to prison. Take an ice cold bath, go training, but don't drink or do drugs. It will only make your true thought more blured. Atleast, that's my struggle, and that's why I will never become suicidal.