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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 16:30   #1
Jonas
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IP sharing...

I mailed the multihunters as I wondered how things would work out when I have my m8s @ visit and we use the same comp/ip to launch fleets scan etc...We are in the same allie and in one case the same gal. Now the only message I get from the multihunters is dont interact. HOW THE FK are we supposed to not interacting. I mean we would ofc try not to, but usually when me and my cousin or and a friend sit up all night playing l33t transport tycoon and diablo games++, one of us often gets incs, and if not, someone we know does. When we are allied and in gal we defend the same players etc. Should PA be the reason for me not to get visited by specific friends because we cant play from the same comp? annoying. Any suggestions on how this might be solved? As atm its technically impossible to split the legit players having no life from the multies/login shrers having even less than no life.

There once was a rule that said IP alone cant be used as an evidence when finding cheaters. But will IP + deffin/attacking same target be a valid reason? Sounds harsh tbh.

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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 16:37   #2
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Re: IP sharing...

how do you propose they tell that you arn't a multi, if you're on the same ip and doing the things multis do?

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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 16:37   #3
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Re: IP sharing...

it sounds arsh if between 2 paid accounts. But that's the only way to go if it involves free account(s)
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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 17:29   #4
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Re: IP sharing...

I have more than one time brought my computer to my friend's place and we play games. We play for a long time and then suddenly it's morning again and I sleep in a chair or the nearest sofa I can find. Would be a drag to find out I have left 16 roids or that my acc is closed due to multi-cheating.

What could work is scheduling it with multihunter. Lets say you could only do it once a month, and you had to plan it 2-3 days in advance, and it would last for 24 hours or something.
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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 18:14   #5
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Re: IP sharing...

ok well leaving aside any moral issues you may have about cheating, what is the real difference between 2 or 3 mates (or buddies if you like) working closely together on attack and defence, and 1 person using 2 or 3 paid for accounts together? objectively, there isnt really one at all, and in fact the 1 guy multying is probably gonna be less effective overall.
that said, farming is a problem, but pretty easily spotted with the right info, and i think the multi hunters will do a good job of sorting those.
finally, on ip's, 2 things. 1) you can use other connections/networks to access your account. thats one of the selling points of the game. if me and a mate are round the same house or in the same net cafe, we're gonna have the same ip, and poss logged in at the same time. ie same ip is no proof of anything. 2) 99.9% of ppl in uk dont have a fixed ip address, so if i wanted to multi with different ips it wouldnt be a problem. ie different ips is no proof of anything
from this you can see if you wanted to penalise someone based on ip evidence alone, youd have to not give much of a crap for justice or the burdon of proof (ofc when you run the game you can do what you like, but it has to be in the eula, or well poss breach of contract probs isnt it)
what it seems is they want us to go out of our way to prove we arnt multying (cheating), which we can never really do.
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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 19:01   #6
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Re: IP sharing...

It's a game not the Olympics. I used to logon at my mates house and help his account out. Done it many times. Getting very pety now. I agree with mist that you cannot tell the two apart. Just make sure your not on a static I.P and reset your machine.
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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 19:45   #7
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Re: IP sharing...

and surely multis anyway would use some kind of anonymizer
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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 20:33   #8
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Re: IP sharing...

Feasibly you could remote desktop to your home machines to launch attacks

The IP's shown would be your normal IP's

edit: realised this would require you to have 2 PC's, but hey, not every solution is perfect
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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 21:08   #9
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Re: IP sharing...

well, usually when we play, we do have 2 PCs :P unless its warlords2 \o/(occasionally settlers 2 )

and we can login to the net from both. Think the ips only change the last number tho. Still. There should be some way to sort it. Send info or something. We could atleast prove that we arent one person managing more accounts, but that would not solve the problem with sharing login. Should we have teh webcam runnin? :P

I just fear that many innocent people can be closed, which would really hurt the game ALOT.

Thats why I created this. If some n3rd has a bright idea of how to solve this, id love to hear him out

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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 21:09   #10
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Re: IP sharing...

don't worry about it, they only check top planets anyways
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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 21:51   #11
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Re: IP sharing...

I would be a shame that a few innocent be closed, but if it gets the majority of cheaters closed I'm all for it. Its called collateral damage it is part of all wars even if it is a game.
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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 23:23   #12
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Re: IP sharing...

not true mens, before automated checking we did the top ones as priority as we only had so much time available. now spinners got an automated tool on the go to give us decent intel as to where to look, we can feasibly monitor the whole universe
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Unread 16 Jun 2004, 23:28   #13
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Re: IP sharing...

last i heard, matched IPs arn't the only thing that's needed for a closure. however, if you're going to look like a multi - shared ips or no - then there's a possibility you're going to get in to trouble

anyway, having brothers etc in different alliances is much more useful, you get to hear when you're going to be attacked

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Unread 17 Jun 2004, 00:00   #14
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Re: IP sharing...

indeed mist, if we closed on ip matches, there'd be a lot of aol people that are closed since aol uses a most annoying proxy :/
if theres EXCESSIVE fleet interactions between planets on the same ip, if theres logins between them all close together etc etc
all these things scream out multi
by advising you not to interact as much as possible, you save yourself the risk of being flagged
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Unread 17 Jun 2004, 10:45   #15
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Re: IP sharing...

do it means you can play 2 accounts as long as they don't interact ? (how to make the difference between 2 guys sharing the same IP and 1 guy playing 2 accounts ?)
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Unread 17 Jun 2004, 10:49   #16
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Re: IP sharing...

I agree with Jona's last post. The only way it can be solved is if pateam investigate the major cheaters and not the ones who logon at other people houses, with tbh is just petty. I am not sure how this can be done but with less players to look over it cannot be hard.

P.s jonas - settlers 2 > *
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Unread 17 Jun 2004, 12:46   #17
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Re: IP sharing...

makhil, no, it's not 'ok', however you're less likely to get caught :P

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Unread 17 Jun 2004, 14:48   #18
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Re: IP sharing...

settlers > * is true ashame it doesn't have a IPX or tcp/ip mode 2 play online

ontopic... i extra had 2 put my brother in a different alliance so we don't interact that much, don't want 2 be closed, and i must say how unfair these rules sound...i think they are needed as they are now..

you won't get good organised muti's tho, sinc they just use a anominizer or sumfin, but it would catch some stupider/lazy ppl... i only hope they check on other stuff then ip tho
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Unread 17 Jun 2004, 16:35   #19
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Re: IP sharing...

imho, i think that if two ppl are sharing a PC together to play PA its cool, but they gotta show its two ppl on a webcam, then tatoo themselves with there user ID
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 04:41   #20
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Re: IP sharing...

not quite smudge heh. there is an item in the FAQ on the manual about it though
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 10:32   #21
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Re: IP sharing...

I am an old ( really old ) PA player. Age 45, yepp one of the "good old boys".

I have enjoyed PA for a long time, and I have two sons who also like the game.
We have used the buddy code to get in the same galaxy and are looking forward to
play as a team, defending each other and attacking as a team.

We are using the same IP. We have 2 PC's at home, connected via a broadband router to the net. I have mailed the guys at multihunter about this, but there must not be any interaction between planets from the same IP. What is the point of the buddy code, and beeing in the same galaxy then?

I am a paying customer, and I enjoy the game a lot. However this multihunting hysteria is getting out of hand. Ofcourse familymembers and friends help eachother out. Isnt that the point of the game?

To sum up: We have 3 accounts, we use the same IP and YES indeed we are gonna help eachother out! If we get deleted, so be it... and PA will loose one of the "good old boys".
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 10:49   #22
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Re: IP sharing...

I think for paid accounts in your situation (same gal), interaction should be allowed as you can't farm from each other, you just can help in def as any other gal mates. Are you GC and your sons ministers ? Don't mess with the gal fund
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 13:00   #23
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Re: IP sharing...

No doubt i'll get flamed for my opinion, but i dont see a problem with someone PAYING to have more than one account. Using the initial post as an example if 3 people live, and breath PA in the same house, working closely together to win the game, working in shifts, eating in shifts etc and win this is cheating? I think not.

But there is no difference to one person paying for 3 accounts and doing the same thing. This is cheating.

I can't see the difference, and if the (few!) existing players want to play (and PAY) for more than one account i say hell go for it as we dont have enough planets in the univese as it is.
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 13:27   #24
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Re: IP sharing...

i'd agree with you if these planets are in the same gal
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 15:53   #25
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Re: IP sharing...

heck -- I float through computers constantly -- and on top of that Jim and I play off the same computer at work --- and sometimes off the same computer at his house after work.

We already had one incident with being accused by PA Crew of being multi's... our accounts were locked out for almost a week until it got straightened out.. That really screwed up our game and so we quickly fell far behind in that round and our whole galaxy pretty much got wiped out. PA almost lost us both that round. Yes I almost left PA even though I have been playing diligently since R2.

I fear that multi paranoia will once again set in a future round and in the end I'll get falsly accused again and that will be the final straw. I play a clean round --- I don't farm or use bugs and cheats when they rear their ugly head. I am a firm believer in a fair playing field. But at the same time I despise being falsly accused of cheating.

This round Jim and I will:

1) Both be playing from our work computer (sometimes at the same time)
2) Both be playing from his home (on rare occasions) when I drop him off from work.
3) I'll be using my laptop some times with it's mobile card especially when I travel - (and Jim may log in through that too on a rare occasion)
4) I may use my Girlfriends computer or another friends comp.
5) I'll be using my own home computer

in short --- I'll play from wherever I can whenever I can --- but if this confuses the multi-hunters and their system then I would sincerely suggest they change the system before they lose good honest (and paying) players...

I welcome they call me by phone (and I'm sure Jim would too) at any time --- we both have cell phones`! If you want to check to see if we are both playing our own accounts -- we are just a phone call away!

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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 16:44   #26
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Re: IP sharing...

I agree with some of the posters here. it's a bit silly when you cannot play what is essentially a team-game alongside friends/workmates/family members..

To state my own situation: myself and Lynne have both played since r3, playing together in the same alliance (NewDawn) for several rounds now - along came March, I bought a house and Lynne moved in... so now this means, according to PA policy, that one of us will have to leave ND.. which really is quite a sad state of affairs. It's probably the only game I've played where this is an issue.. no probs in CS, no probs in Eve.. granted not the same kind of game but still.. consider that if we had a sociable and accomodating neighbour, one of us could nip next door and play PA just for the sake of having a different IP, you'd have to agree it's clearly ridiculous.
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 17:22   #27
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Re: IP sharing...

There's two sides to this argument. The problem from a multi-hunter's perspective has to be that the behaviour of two players living together can be pretty much indistinguishable from the behaviour of one player with two accounts. If the reason/excuse of "he's my brother/sister/son/wife/flat-mate whatever" is accepted as a valid explanation of the intereaction of two accounts on the same IP/computer, then it's effectively a charter to multi.

I will share an IP at times with someone else who works in the same office as me. -Not defending one another's planets (or attacking the same targets) seems a small price to pay to make life much harder for multis. Sharing a galaxy with someone on same IP is just begging to be closed: yes, you may well be genuine - but there'll be plenty of others saying the same thing who aren't. And it's not just multiing which is the issue, it's login-sharing. PA crew can't just give carte-blanche for people on same IP/computer to interact normally, or it gives free license to login-share.

Expecting multi-hunters to phone around the world checking whether people really exist is impractical and unreliable. And even if they establish that two individuals exist, they still can't detect which of them is logging into which account.

Those claiming the multi-hunters should take their word that they're really two people and honestly won't cheat should bear in mind that if that courtesy is extended to you, then it also needs to be extended to everyone else making similar claims. The restrictions seem a very small price to pay to stop some of the most harmful forms of multiing and the least detectable form of login-sharing.
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 18:39   #28
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Re: IP sharing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
Sharing a galaxy with someone on same IP is just begging to be closed: yes, you may well be genuine - but there'll be plenty of others saying the same thing who aren't. .
This is exactly what me and my sons are going to do. With the buddy code we got inside the same galaxy and are looking forward to defend and attack togheter. Ofcourse I see the point of Sid, I could be a single player, but what can we do? The answer is : We will try, we are in the same gal with the same IP, and if that is "begging to be closed", well this is not the game for us.

However, we have not done anything in violation of the user agrement! If we are closed we will not get what we paid for, and I guess we have the legal right to get our money back. Anyways, time will show. Have a good round all, and remember all (including the multi-hunters) its just a game!

Regards,
Thomas, Samuel and Dad.
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 19:05   #29
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Re: IP sharing...

I am getting confused

This is a direct cut and paste from the user agrement.....

-Start-
All interaction between accounts from the same IP address
will be regarded as direct evidence towards cheating. (=same IP, violation)

You are as a user allowed to access your account by means of
proxies / anonymizers and also to defend / attack with people
from the same IP (=same IP allowed) as yourself. However, if any Game Administrator
perceives these actions to be related to cheating, the above
rules will be enough to warrant a closure(1).
-End-

Getting dizzy!
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 19:38   #30
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Re: IP sharing...

Do a google search for http proxy list , these will hide your IP. In the past multies have used a second web browser, such as opera or netscape with a http proxy set to hide one IP. This means they can have 2 accounts open at the same time, one in IE and one in NS/Opera. The http proxy method has been used for many years.

Last edited by Copie; 18 Jun 2004 at 19:40. Reason: added google link
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 19:47   #31
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Re: IP sharing...

nice one copie, encourage folks why dont you.
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 19:59   #32
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Re: IP sharing...

/me takes notes on how to multi lol
but on a serious note though, im going on holiday for a week next week, and the person im am stopping with is in my galaxy and buddy pack, so essentially this means we cannot work together for a week... how crap is that
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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 20:18   #33
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Re: IP sharing...

sid raises a valid and important point.

look at it this way, you can:
a) play with people on the same ip without fear of persecution, allowing anyone who wants to multi to do so. fair enough, however whenever you see escorts hitting your planet, muiltis defending against you etc etc what do you think you'll hear when you complain?

b) acknowledge that if you play too closely with your rl mates then you'll look like a multi, and try and aviod it. then when you see cheating you'll have a reasonable case for stopping it.

which would you rather have?

i agree it's pants that honest people have to suffer because of cheats, but you either suffer because of the rules or suffer directly because of the cheats, and in this case the rules would seem the lesser of two evils

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Unread 18 Jun 2004, 23:33   #34
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Re: IP sharing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
nice one copie, encourage folks why dont you.
It's hardly arcane knowledge, if people want to do it, then they can find out. Google is your friend. If people dont know how to use google then they prolly wont be playing PA as a multi. Only the sad geeks play PA, and only the saddest geeks play PA with more than one planet. Other people have girlfriends.
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Unread 19 Jun 2004, 03:44   #35
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Re: IP sharing...

Copie you playing pa this round. I se ewhat you are saying, but you really are sort of advertising cheating. We really don't need that tbh. Cheating is gay, account sharing is cheating. Whatever the PA team has to do to stop it or minimize it significantly, I am all for it, as well as others. True there are eceptions, like family and so on, but if we let a few through, we might as well let all.
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Unread 19 Jun 2004, 13:28   #36
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Re: IP sharing...

I suggest making some sort of statement of what exactly interacting would mean.

If 1 planet(be it ingal, allie or outside) defends another planet and the two have used the same ip. I honestly cant see how this could be used to close someone. Yes this COULD be login sharing. But what happened to the benefit of the doubt?

If two accounts from the same ip attacks the same gal, it would be much of the same situation as above. Maybe make rules that say they cant atack the same target or whatever.

I appericiate the work Multihunters do. I even did it when I was closed for 13 days(which was probably because of me and some m8s had been using the same comp to login from and attacking with when drunk some saturday \o/). They havent got an easy job. But what has recently been announced seriously frightens me that my gameplay might be heavily reduced, unless i sit in all summer on my own PC not getting any visits from PA playing m8s or cousins for 3 months. And as I said, too m any inocents will suffer from this. there should be somehow to check wether persons exist or not without calling them, that can be legally used by admins?

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Unread 19 Jun 2004, 16:32   #37
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Re: IP sharing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Copie
Do a google search for http proxy list , these will hide your IP. In the past multies have used a second web browser, such as opera or netscape with a http proxy set to hide one IP. This means they can have 2 accounts open at the same time, one in IE and one in NS/Opera. The http proxy method has been used for many years.
and whats to stop us doing the same thing to get a list of 'known proxies' which can then be scanned for and people using them monitored closely. the door swings both ways, besides some proxies can be detected far more easily then that, spinners got proxy-checking code built in to the tools, which check an IP for proxies and return the true ip behind it
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Unread 19 Jun 2004, 16:34   #38
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Re: IP sharing...

One thing to bear in mind, we can overlook the OCCASIONAL interaction if we`ve been contacted about it before, note OCCASIONAL , as in rare and not very often. we draw the line at consistant interaction though. If something looks very very fishy, not even an exception will save you from a closure.
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Unread 19 Jun 2004, 16:38   #39
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Re: IP sharing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
spinners got proxy-checking code built in to the tools, which check an IP for proxies and return the true ip behind it
Why don't I fully believe you?
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Unread 19 Jun 2004, 16:44   #40
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Re: IP sharing...

its been there since r10, those who were closed before and had their login correlations pasted to them may have seen it. theres a list of IPs , seperated by commas. quite simple and effective
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Unread 19 Jun 2004, 20:32   #41
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Re: IP sharing...

So you check each IP that makes a web page hit for an open proxy? No wonder PA is slow
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Unread 3 Jul 2004, 21:43   #42
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Re: IP sharing...

i too have my doubts about the multihunter bots - i guess they use calcs and just automatically see the stats and act...

i had 3 paid accounts from my pc, and one of the guys was lettin 2 of his mates play unpaid accounts... we all got closed down... i contacted support and was told by greetz (?) that one of us had attacked all other users... none of us had sent out any fleets at that point apart from myself (and i had only just sent out my first to an unconnected planet... wanna try explaining that ?

..anyway, i got reinstated with a really snooty reply - no apology, no admission that the multihunter was wrong, no payback on 14 hours of lost resources, and a denied attack... just "i'll be watching you" bollox...

now i don't allow anyone to play apart from myself, even though i paid for 3 credits... it's not worth the risk

great, huh ?
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Unread 4 Jul 2004, 12:04   #43
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Re: IP sharing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtothez
Why don't I fully believe you?
it's true, there are some. they're not perfect, but they're not bad. ofc, just using a proxy that doesn't admit who's using it would rather break them...

tbh, given that there are undetectable ways to multi i see no real reason chasing the less competent ones. if people want to pay for more planets then fair play to them, 'tis their money and it's no different to them having another alliance member. the hunters could then look for things like farming.

however, bot use should be discouraged - if someone's playing 10 accounts fair enough, if someone's watching a bot play 10 accounts that sucks. decent bot stopping, auto log out after 24 hours (atm you've just got to log the bot in and it'll stay logged in for the whole round?) and changing the page requests a lil (makes no difference to the user, but it'll confuse bots) would all seem easy but annoying (from the pov of bots) things to do.

also, login sharing is a problem. while it seems like multiing, it's not. one person running 10 planets is going to go mad, 10 people runnig 10 planets who can then use the others for defence are going to be more problematic. stopping caring about mutlis would give hunters more time to look for these as well

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Unread 4 Jul 2004, 18:39   #44
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Re: IP sharing...

if people are geuninly playing as a planet they just need to contact [email protected] so we can add an in game note - then we won;t close for the simple things that we might close others for however - if u do things that look really bad you will still quite possibly get closed, but if you contact us quickly on irc we can often resolve theese issues without hindering your planet to much.
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Unread 5 Jul 2004, 01:41   #45
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Re: IP sharing...

Short story:

We used to be a bunch of people at work playing together and man was it fun. We defended, attacked and made "evil" strategic plans to conquer the PA universe. I remember calling up coworkers late at night begging for defense. One time I even canceled a weekly meeting (sorry boss!) because of massive incoming of nastiness on my planet .... and I managed to fight them off . Friends at work and at war !. We played both from work and from home. From work we were all behind a firewall using the same IP. Of course we were never closed down, but this was way back in R6 and 7.

This scenario would not be possible today, and I believe that this is what finally will break the back of PA. Why oh WHY! is it so important to close down a few multis when you are very effectively destroying the fun times families, friends and colleagues once had? WHY is this multihunting so important? Has it become some sort of powertrip for the hunters... it looks like it.

I don’t have any conclusion or answers, just remembering what PA was like ... and dreaming of the good ole' times.
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Unread 5 Jul 2004, 08:57   #46
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Re: IP sharing...

great to read the same post on every thread Fakhiri ... i think one time is enough even if you think it fits in every thread :-)
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Unread 5 Jul 2004, 18:28   #47
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Re: IP sharing...

this is kinda funny

if we dont hunt and let people cheat we get a lot of people complaining they have no change to win
so we set up rules
we look a all account to see who is following the rules and who is not
we close the people that do look very fishy and we get people complaining again

dont check us we are not doing anything wrong (but do close the cheater that shows the exact same moves)

basicly, you cant have it both ways

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Unread 5 Jul 2004, 22:42   #48
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Re: IP sharing...

this might be more of a witchhunt tbh...

Anyway, I have always appericiated the work the multihunters do...however it is new of the round that one cannot interact with rl friends and family if one leaves the house to visit them or something...
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Unread 6 Jul 2004, 21:02   #49
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Re: IP sharing...

new? no

you're just being warned about it this time.

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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 18:48   #50
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Re: IP sharing...

I think they should quit caring about multis. Give it up, you can't police them.
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