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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 17:39   #51
alch
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Re: The price for PA ?

hinch, let me do the GFX if you buy PA

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I already have a development team (4 coders and 4 gfx peons) <--- do you refer to me?
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 18:07   #52
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
a free game will imo only mean more inactives, not actives, so might make the game worse for the active players.
but attract a bigger community nonetheless.

I only see a winning side by making it free
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 18:25   #53
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Idler
but attract a bigger community nonetheless.

I only see a winning side by making it free
Idler I reccomend you focus on the purchasing at the moment, all you'll find is people who believe they know better trying to discourage you here.

I full-heartedly endorse this bid of Idlers.
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 18:27   #54
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Re: The price for PA ?

Starbucks, hinch and Idler for PA owners \o/
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 18:44   #55
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Re: The price for PA ?

all 3 of us could easily make a hotiile takeover of Sim Tech Ltd
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 19:00   #56
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Re: The price for PA ?

fk simtech if i was doing that it'd be buying jolt off nildram
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 19:28   #57
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Re: The price for PA ?

I didn't make an offer. It wasn't worth it then, especially as I didn't have any (financial) figures on their operation.

It might worth an offer now, but i'd want to see some basic figures before putting my money in. I have no idea how the game is doing financially atm. If they don't lose (much) money, then I'd be interested to participate in an offer if people can come up with a decent business plan.
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 19:30   #58
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alch
heh. insulting :/
Well lets be honest it was piss poor, when they bought the game they were all about how they would be marketting the game the way it needed and what did we exactly get a single ad in a magazine, a magazine which lets be honest isnt the biggest selling one around. Now I know that marketting this game by the time it was sold was a difficult task as the work of mouth in the internet gaming communities was so negative but such magazine ads had the ability to attract people from outside these groups. And with the NEW improved PA being the one marketted now was the time to get people in, who knows how PAX might have been with some good marketting that increased the playerbase

Quote:
Originally Posted by hinchles
kal since you started playing the round i left i'll pretty much ignore your comment about the hardwork

im sure when wakey wakes up he'll be able to comment better
Theres no doubt that theres been just as much hardwork going into PA as before and no one should take that away from those doing it BUT for too many rounds now the focus has always seemed to be on the wrong areas. Take the portal for example, generally little used as for many players it didnt offer much as it was lacking in intrresting content BUT pretty much every round alot of effort was invested in redoing the portal from scratch WHEN what it needed was content.

Not that i've ever really thought the portal was that much use (even though in my time ive worked on it myself) as I've always thought it distracts from the game itself . You simply land at the portal and you end up with a site that simply doesnt invite you to sign up, in fact with many of them its been fairly hard to determine that its a site for a game and not some random portal. Its something which many of PA's competitors (thinking SS in particular) have pulled off really well by having a site that looks slick, makes it clear what it is and offers easy access to everything you might need to know. Much of whats been done on the portals in the past simply dont belong on an official portal, they are the realms for the unofficial portals which were common in the past and which were done much better (Planet101 in particular but also Planetaron-Central )

Simply back in the day official work was alot more focussed on areas that helped the game itself rather than trying to juggle so many differnt projects many which have no real game benifit at all. These projects instead were done unofficially by people where it didnt take man power away from the game. We had people making portals for the game, we had people mentoring ect ect all out of the goodness of their hearts simply because they wished to make the COMMUNITY surrounding the game better rather than being after some glossy official title that gave them bragging rights.

As for Kal's comment about Jolt. I agree on the whole Jolt arent a bad company. In fact they are a company that does what it does extreamly well, however when it comes to PA it does seem like they didnt think about it before purchasing it. They had all these promises and then seem to have realised its not quite the cash cow they thought it would be and that it actually needs alot of time, effort and inverstment to make it one and have hence grown cold on the whole PA issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Idler
basicly I have every intention to make planetarion free again.
To some extent. For example it would be possible to be inspired by the business plan of some other online games with success (ie hattrick).

The resources to get everything done lies within the community, you just need to listen to what they actually have to say.
If I recall correctly hatrick does this by offering addons such as SMS and its such things which kind of leave me worrying about players running the game. Such ways of funding the game so its profitable and hence has money to allow it to grow are probally the way to go and PA has tried to implement such things in the past but the players have always got in the way . You see its often the case that we as players cant see the wood for the trees. Our own situation and those of the people we surround ourselves with dont give us a clear overall picture and hence we attack any idea that will make our lives harder just like the loud hardcore players did of the SMS idea even though it was potentially a way to fund the game without full p2p and was an idea that had been worked on and was fairly close to being implementable. Lets take Kal for example last round he made a number of really stupid comments about the lower end of the game which due to his alliance affliations in the game he belived were right, you see he considered himself to have been in a small alliance when he was in NoS which while they might have considered themselves small and those they were competeing with might have thought they were small they were pretty large in the grand scale of things hopefully now through mentoring he now realises its not quite as easy ride for small alliances as he though. if he hadnt learnt this and he went on to buy the game you would get a distorted game because he cpuldnt see the full context of the game. I firmly believe to really do this you either need to experiance both sides in a short period of time or simply be able to take a step back from the game and just observe which in the cases of hinch and yourself might make you suitable to run it and be successful as you have been out the game for long periods. As I said on a thread about some proposed mentor team changes and its the same here the people in charge do need to be withdrawn enough so that they act with their head rather than their heart. They key is no doubt though being able to balance this with those in charge being in tune with the community enough so that it doesnt totally alienate it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
You are more concerned that you'd be sacked and img tags would be restored.
[sarcasm]Youve got me Evergreen i'm so concerned about being sacked[/sarcasm] If that really was the case dont you think id actually be one of those people who spends all day brown nosing PATeam rather than someone who critsises their decsions so mcuh that its not only lost me my place on PATeam in the past but also risked my position as mod and stood in my way of being promoted.

I do this job to help the community which has given me so much enjoyment not for some power trip (otherwise i would be banning the lot of you for no reason like those on power trips do).

Anyway i'm fairly confident that anyone taking over would actually keep me on, after all theres not many people with as much modding experiance as myself and if they didnt hey its their loss and id have more time to do other things

Quote:
Originally Posted by hinchles
pa is missing its hayday and needs to be given back to the community to run as a community project not a money grabbing project as it will never make any.
I'm not sure you can ever go back to that now, and anyway i'm not sure something that doesnt have a main focus of making money is a good thing. If the game is to go forward and be successful it does need to make a profit, just look at some of the problems we have now which are down to the fact its part time. Coders are doing things on the side which means big changes are a really major task, one that takes time and more often than not other issue take that coder away from teh jon meaning a replacement is needed and parts of the code needed redone (admittedly that wouldnt be needed as much if some good documentation was done by the coders so others could understand what they were doing, ok some parts might still be redone as a coder may think a module might be better done another way but some time could be saved).

I certainly dont see WHY it cant be run to make a profit while the community being served, after all the community never really had anything to do with the game. The game didnt make the community good, it was the people and the way the community could get involved in their own projects for the good of the community. Some of the reason thats broken down can be placed at the feet of alliance (Fury and Legion in particular) as they helped make the game more hardcore and less community based and led to private galaxies which just broke the community down into smaller ones (not that i'm blaming you sid for killing the game, its just something which happened and something which was destined to happen at some point.) BUT also the fact that every good idea the community had to help the community ended up being made into something official which killed off many of the community 'tools' and the official ones simply never had that community building aspect that the unoffcial ones had. The community has now changed because of these and its a case of finding out what makes this new community tick and how the community spirt can be brought out in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
a free game will imo only mean more inactives, not actives, so might make the game worse for the active players.
As the game is yes I think your right and I dont know how much that will help (having just had my galaxy exile me for no reason and going from a top 10 galaxy to one on the outer rim of the universe i'm really starting to understand how much inactives kill the game and more players wont solve this unless they are active). Its not just the players we need but as i said before its realising the communities changed and identifying how the community spirt can be brought out of it , and just trying to go back to the old days simply wont do this. Without the community spirt people dont stick around and arent active, get the community spirt back we give people a reason to be active and then if the game gets more members its looking good

FFS thats a long 'rant' even by my standards, just hope the forums dont kick back a message too long error
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 20:49   #59
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Re: The price for PA ?

wakey ffs! i dont have time to read all that....maybe in my next life
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 21:13   #60
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Exclamation Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
a free game will imo only mean more inactives, not actives, so might make the game worse for the active players.
If PA continues to stick its head in the sand about the problems of inactives and the inadequacies of the exile system then that's undoubtably true. :/
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 22:07   #61
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Re: The price for PA ?

You can't argue that we shouldn't expand the community simply because it would mean more inactives. It would also mean more active people, who could rejuvenate the community. Signups should be free, and funding should come from adverts as well as in-game extras (though these should not be necessary to finish in the top100).

Also, bring back round 2 stats. Then people might actually start playing the game again. Might.
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 22:25   #62
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Re: The price for PA ?

If someone buys PA and doesn't do something truly radical to it, turning it into a whole new gameplay experience, i.e 'brings back round 3', I swear to tap-dancing Christ I'll cut them
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 22:29   #63
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Re: The price for PA ?

whats the real price for PA then?
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 22:30   #64
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nondescript Human
You can't argue that we shouldn't expand the community simply because it would mean more inactives. It would also mean more active people, who could rejuvenate the community. Signups should be free, and funding should come from adverts as well as in-game extras (though these should not be necessary to finish in the top100).

Also, bring back round 2 stats. Then people might actually start playing the game again. Might.
The point people are trying to make though is that it isnt a case of just adding more people and everything will be great again. There are other aspects that need dealt with BEFORE we get more people, these include better dealing with inactives and most importantly giving people a reason to play. As it is for many players theres no reason to continue playing after the first week or so, by this point they have been bashed to peices and theres nothing to hook them into contunued play. In the past we had the community but as thats evolved its lost its spirt and its no longer a hook unless your already fully intergrated into it.

As for saying bring back round 2 stats, I dont really see what that would do. Rounds such as r2 are held in such high regards not because the stats were at their best or the game at its best BUT because at that moment in time everything was right. Theres so many differnt elements that went into making the period around there so good that you can never recreate it even if you had the r2 stats and code. The game shouldnt be trying to step back to the good old days, rather it should be being inspired by the good old days and the bad old days so that it can take a step forward so they can try and create a round that is as fun under the differnt set of conditions we have now
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 22:32   #65
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Re: The price for PA ?

R2 was all about how the evil F/L/RB had ruined the game.

Every round ppl complain, and tbh, i think this round has less complainst about the actual game than any i can remember.
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 22:36   #66
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
R2 was all about how the evil F/L/RB had ruined the game.

Every round ppl complain, and tbh, i think this round has less complainst about the actual game than any i can remember.
No that was r3. Fury was pretty insignificant for alot of r2, Legion was still a wing of WaC for much of r2 and RB was still RE for most of r2
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 22:50   #67
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Re: The price for PA ?

wasn't round 2 the one where everyone* complained about thieves and pirates?

*everyone being everyone other than the top few, who's enjoyed the hugely unbalanced game 'cus it was unbalanced in their favour

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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 22:55   #68
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Re: The price for PA ?

Yep, they were really overpowered. Funny thing is to this day everyone seems to always be demanding the stats for both ships back when everyone* wanted them gone in r2. Its one of the reasons i'm always sceptical about the community being more involved in the game design, they have no clue what they want most of the time
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Unread 13 Jul 2004, 23:27   #69
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Some of the reason thats broken down can be placed at the feet of alliance (Fury and Legion in particular) as they helped make the game more hardcore and less community based and led to private galaxies which just broke the community down into smaller ones (not that i'm blaming you sid for killing the game, its just something which happened and something which was destined to happen at some point.)
I actually disagree on this point. I started a random account in r3, and I certainly wouldn't have played again had I not attacked a guy in havoc, got chatting to him via in-game mail and been invited into his private galaxy for the next round - from where I was then introduced to the wonder that is IRC. There's a lot of people that seem to like playing random PA, but the only random round I ever enjoyed was r9.5, and that was due to my alliance, not my galaxy.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 00:00   #70
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Re: The price for PA ?

Why don't Idler, Starbucks and hinchles chat to each other and actually come up with a formal offer, and present it to Jolt. This way they wont stand on losing much each but have a lot to gain.
And I shall take 10% and broker the deal.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 01:39   #71
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Re: The price for PA ?

Because we are not looking to sell it and the figures metioned here are way below any value at where that situation might change.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 02:39   #72
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
Why don't Idler, Starbucks and hinchles chat to each other and actually come up with a formal offer, and present it to Jolt. This way they wont stand on losing much each but have a lot to gain.
And I shall take 10% and broker the deal.
More owners = Less gets done.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 02:47   #73
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Re: The price for PA ?

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More owners = Less gets done.
since the 3 of us are not a corporation. no
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 03:13   #74
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by biffy
Because we are not looking to sell it and the figures metioned here are way below any value at where that situation might change.
I reckon my figure was close enough then \o/
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 04:01   #75
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Re: The price for PA ?

i miss barrysworld.

it was all going hunkey dorey till they went tits up.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 06:25   #76
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
a free game will imo only mean more inactives, not actives, so might make the game worse for the active players.
No. Your wrong.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 07:00   #77
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Re: The price for PA ?

And I'm glad you've taken the liberty to explain that's wrong.

Percentage wise, inactives will get worse, there's really not a way around that.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 09:52   #78
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev
I actually disagree on this point. I started a random account in r3, and I certainly wouldn't have played again had I not attacked a guy in havoc, got chatting to him via in-game mail and been invited into his private galaxy for the next round - from where I was then introduced to the wonder that is IRC. There's a lot of people that seem to like playing random PA, but the only random round I ever enjoyed was r9.5, and that was due to my alliance, not my galaxy.
You havent said anything there that actually disagrees with my point. You seem to be holding alliancs up as proof that theres a good community spirt and i've never stated that alliances dont have this BUT what alliances becoming more professional, private galaxies ect did break what was a vibrant community that was always mixing which helped it to continually improve into many smaller closed communities that were hard to get into (especially if you are new) and which dont mix in the same way as before. This isnt saying these small communities arent good but the sum of their totals isnt anywhere near what it was before and simply doesnt provide the same hook for players as it did. The community was great because the big helped the small, the small helped the big which meant we we all continually learning and were always making new friends in closed communities this is brestricted but the problem is getting this old community spirit back it now difficult as random rounds of the past have shown. The big no longer want to help the small, people are focussed only on their alliances and not on their galaxies and they generally arent willing to tollerate new players so exile them before helping them improve
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 09:58   #79
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Re: The price for PA ?

We can only hope that Jolt decides to cut it's losses and sod off, the game as it stands is a shadow of it's former self. Hinch would be fantastic for PA, he would ensure we do away with all these bullshit titles 'mentors', etc which add pointless bureaucracy to a game which could be managed oh so simply. I wish hinch et al the best of luck in procuring PA and look forward to one day returning to a PA under his leadership.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 10:16   #80
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Re: The price for PA ?

I bid 5k at the time with hinch providing the servers.

The realism is that PA and associated servers could be provided for free with the backing of several companies. At the time my then managing irector agreed to sink some money into it as a PR exercise.

The trouble with PA is they have always wanted to make vast fortunes. The money was never in the game but the community around the game, It in itself is a vast marketing tool and has a BIG consumable spending budget. Too little emphasis was placed n the retailing side which in reality is where the profits could be made. The game if it broke even by banners and marketing agreements should always have been satisfactory.

Ironically I probably would still be interested in paying for the game without any infrastucture, but with the state of the code and the lowering of the playerbase it would be wrth considerably less money.

PA would always have to be a labour of love, not one of profit, though there are avenues for profit which were never fully exploited. Unfortunately to ensure PA was revenue generative would require a decent business plan and thats what has been always lacking in PA - poper busines knowledge.

Ironically one of the competitors could easily be bought for little cash which paks the need for planetarion at an inflated cost minimal.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 10:20   #81
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Re: The price for PA ?

i wont be putting in a bid for pa until jolt realise its true value.

when they do i got 5k here which ill wire transferre over to them within 10 minutes.

5k is all pa is worth to me and thats alot of money just for a domain name

i offered straight buy out at 10k first time round no profit sharing with old 5th season investors and they wernt interested greed got the better of them.

as for what jolt would want for pa. i think they've been smoking too much crack.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 10:21   #82
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Re: The price for PA ?

i doubt planetarion is worth 5k when you can get p l a n e t i a for a couple of k less.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 10:24   #83
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Re: The price for PA ?

yeah but its the name and the reputation of the name that your buying brand awareness for pa is higher and pl it also retains the title in history of "first and biggest webbased game on the planet" which has a nice marketing push to it
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 10:34   #84
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Re: The price for PA ?

well possibly, but now you are talking about intangible stuff which may or may not be able to realise value.

Compared to the old code the game is acually worse off than round 6 and the way the game base has fallen by so much means you wuld need me than good will to change things around.

This compares with pl which has a growing gaming community and a lot of goowill using old standards which made pa fun.

Its a delicate balancing act in reality the truth is that a combination with the 2 and you stand a fair crack of the whip at getting a decent market share again.

but a lot depends on the vision an the corporate awareness of the people buying it.

With PA it could only ever make money at being a marketing tool (PA hosted by so and so, on so and so servers, with probably a main sponsr and ad banners (not through a banner company, but by selling space for a certain amount of months).

Then you have prizes from so and so retailer along with offering certain products to the community at reduced rates (hardware, software, accessories) and of course the lan events (Continent championshps and world championships) an spin off right sales.

Together you can probably earn a decent living, but too much vision was required at he times I suggested it and the people involved just didn't have the corporate whoring ability to get it done.

I still tink after saying all that 5k i steep buddy, but if you want a busines plan you know where i am
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 10:58   #85
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Re: The price for PA ?

lol if i ever di it i wouldnt be looking to make a peny i'd put perhaps google ads on ther ebut everything else i'd just foot the bill my self.

lets see 5 servers thats 500 a month for some good servers.

marketing say we pop 300 a month on banner ads on other sites.

thats costing me 800 a month to run lol thats nothing m8ty
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:08   #86
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Re: The price for PA ?

English mother****er, do you speak it?! lawl
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:08   #87
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth
Percentage wise, inactives will get worse, there's really not a way around that.
With free accounts, you can take a much more gung ho approach versus inactives. Deleting a free account for inacitivity is fairly inconsequential, doing it to someone who has paid for it is a bit more of a hassle.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:08   #88
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hinchles
lol if i ever di it i wouldnt be looking to make a peny i'd put perhaps google ads on ther ebut everything else i'd just foot the bill my self.

lets see 5 servers thats 500 a month for some good servers.

marketing say we pop 300 a month on banner ads on other sites.

thats costing me 800 a month to run lol thats nothing m8ty
You can pay us mods a wage then if your rolling in so much money Not that that would cost you much after all we are down to about 2 mods in total
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:10   #89
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hinchles
lol if i ever di it i wouldnt be looking to make a peny i'd put perhaps google ads on ther ebut everything else i'd just foot the bill my self.

lets see 5 servers thats 500 a month for some good servers.

marketing say we pop 300 a month on banner ads on other sites.

thats costing me 800 a month to run lol thats nothing m8ty
yeah i know and as i said its a labour of love its not about making oodles of cash, breakeven and mabe a few quid more as a sideline or to cover more sever outlay later on.

Development and growth is costly as you know. The bigger the scale the greater the cost and thats where pa broke down before (economies of scale actually broke there plan).

Also I have a tendncy to think things need to be run on a commercial basis otherwise it becomes too much of a burden without it.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:11   #90
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
You can pay us mods a wage then if your rolling in so much money
If that happens, I want to be a mod again
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:12   #91
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
With free accounts, you can take a much more gung ho approach versus inactives. Deleting a free account for inacitivity is fairly inconsequential, doing it to someone who has paid for it is a bit more of a hassle.
You can be more gung ho about multi hunting too - so much pressure is taken off in a free universe - including from the players for poor performance crap rounds etc,
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:15   #92
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Re: The price for PA ?

GCSE Business Studies did you proud Rumad
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:16   #93
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Re: The price for PA ?

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GCSE Business Studies did you proud Rumad
actually i never got any gcse's

However my cima accounting qualifications and my degree in business administration haven't done me too bad career wise thanks
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:18   #94
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Re: The price for PA ?

Rumad in stroking his ego non shocker...



....back on topic...
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:29   #95
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Re: The price for PA ?

So how much did Jolt pay for it?
And do they really deserve to make a profit from it!?

Edit: Rumad, you mean diseconomies.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:47   #96
hinchles
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Re: The price for PA ?

arg at my spelling i just noticed.

and wakey first thing i'd do is fire you all
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 11:54   #97
Rumad
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
So how much did Jolt pay for it?
And do they really deserve to make a profit from it!?

Edit: Rumad, you mean diseconomies.
no the correct term is economies of scale - they either work or they don't
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 20:24   #98
ScottishRebel
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
wasn't round 2 the one where everyone* complained about thieves and pirates?

*everyone being everyone other than the top few, who's enjoyed the hugely unbalanced game 'cus it was unbalanced in their favour

-mist
Unbalanced? Has it ever been anything else
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 20:33   #99
mist
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Re: The price for PA ?

fair point, but there are degrees of unbalance, and from what i hear r2 was pretty extreme

-mist
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 00:36   #100
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Re: The price for PA ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by biffy
Because we are not looking to sell it and the figures metioned here are way below any value at where that situation might change.
Dont sell it now then, I will leave the money earning interest and people will offer half of what I and hinch/rumad offered in 2003.

You can only drag a cash cow for so long without feeding it
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