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Unread 18 Jul 2017, 22:34   #51
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

These stats are as useless as a Brit in warm weather. The mongrel Who made up these stats deserve to have his teeth pulled out with blunt spoons.
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 07:02   #52
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

I think these stats have the potential to be quite good and I'm certainly not as critical of them as others are for being different but there is one REALLY big issue/flaw i have with them.

These stats will benefit those who cheat.

While I fully understand it's not the stat makers job to prevent cheating, there is too big of an advantage for an ally to cheat with these stats and there is such an easy fix in to prevent it. The fleets are already there they just need pods.

Give Ter Fi, Cath De, Xan Cr, Zik Bs pods and these set of stats will get a BIG from me.

I get the intention of wanting good active players who are able to steal ships an advantage but we all know who it really benefits and it's not the good honest player.
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 07:29   #53
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swainey View Post
I think these stats have the potential to be quite good and I'm certainly not as critical of them as others are for being different but there is one REALLY big issue/flaw i have with them.

These stats will benefit those who cheat.

While I fully understand it's not the stat makers job to prevent cheating, there is too big of an advantage for an ally to cheat with these stats and there is such an easy fix in to prevent it. The fleets are already there they just need pods.

Give Ter Fi, Cath De, Xan Cr, Zik Bs pods and these set of stats will get a BIG from me.

I get the intention of wanting good active players who are able to steal ships an advantage but we all know who it really benefits and it's not the good honest player.
Agree, deffo a step Into the right direction
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 11:23   #54
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

I honour people trying to make changes.
But to be honest i like it simple. I played XAN and CATH. Tried ZIK once but that stealing and so on wasnīt mine.

If you now make all races able to do everything then i think that potential new players might find that too complicated. And it just feels wrong to me that the races arentīt unique anymore then.
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 11:28   #55
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I think it comes down to how pessimistic you are about the playerbase. I can see both sides. I have faith that I have made the stats so no teamup wipes out all comers. This alone makes the need to teamup cross race less anyway.

It might just be that alliances can't have a 'BS only' strat. That all classes and races have equal benefits. This wouldn't be a bad thing for the fun of the round imo.
Since broadly talking about it isnt working, I'll try details:

An alliance wanting to go Fi attack fleet, if they dont plan on cheating, they go Xan Fi, possibly a few want to risk it and go Terran and hope to steal fi pods, their Fi attacks cant land on any Cath and any Cath with ingal scarabs covers them even vs 2-3 man teamup.
an alliance wanting to go fi attack fleet, and plans on cheating, they go Terran/Xan fi half half or something similar, Scarabs isnt a problem because of Valkrye.

It's similar for the other classes.

I understand that you made these shipstats thinking if you didnt give Terran Fi , Fi pods, it means the fi attack fleets could mostly get stopped by Scarabs, and you give an extra benefit to those active lucky guys who manage to steal fi pods with Terrans. And if you do give Terrans Fi pods, your balance shifts a bit since then theres no extra downside to going Terran fi, but looking at previous rounds where some allies had no problem cheating to get their desired pods. I think you're giving them too big an advantage now.
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 13:35   #56
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

And using the excuse that "people" whined about not being able to play xan during the round without xan in stats, to justify this... is just proper bullshit. A few people might have commented it, but they speak for themselves and not others.
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 14:07   #57
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Since broadly talking about it isnt working, I'll try details:

An alliance wanting to go Fi attack fleet, if they dont plan on cheating, they go Xan Fi, possibly a few want to risk it and go Terran and hope to steal fi pods, their Fi attacks cant land on any Cath and any Cath with ingal scarabs covers them even vs 2-3 man teamup.
an alliance wanting to go fi attack fleet, and plans on cheating, they go Terran/Xan fi half half or something similar, Scarabs isnt a problem because of Valkrye.

It's similar for the other classes.

I understand that you made these shipstats thinking if you didnt give Terran Fi , Fi pods, it means the fi attack fleets could mostly get stopped by Scarabs, and you give an extra benefit to those active lucky guys who manage to steal fi pods with Terrans. And if you do give Terrans Fi pods, your balance shifts a bit since then theres no extra downside to going Terran fi, but looking at previous rounds where some allies had no problem cheating to get their desired pods. I think you're giving them too big an advantage now.
I'll be more direct. It is not my job to stop cheaters....

That is the job of MH and vigilant players.

If you base your ally strat around something conditional like pod stealing them you are doomed to fail, simple as.
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 14:09   #58
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
And using the excuse that "people" whined about not being able to play xan during the round without xan in stats, to justify this... is just proper bullshit. A few people might have commented it, but they speak for themselves and not others.
Not sure if this is aimed at me?

Before round 71 a lot of comments were very negative about the lack of xan/cloak. Since then I have only had positive comments about it. The crux being instead of whining, try it, you might like it.
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 15:42   #59
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I'll be more direct. It is not my job to stop cheaters....

That is the job of MH and vigilant players.

If you base your ally strat around something conditional like pod stealing them you are doomed to fail, simple as.
No it's not your job but when there is a clear big advantage in cheating and a very easy solution to fix, why wouldn't we try fixing the issue before it becomes a problem?
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 16:37   #60
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I'll be more direct. It is not my job to stop cheaters....

That is the job of MH and vigilant players.

If you base your ally strat around something conditional like pod stealing them you are doomed to fail, simple as.
Not if you cheat. Which is the whole point.
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 16:50   #61
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Not if you cheat. Which is the whole point.
Why prevent cheaters my gimping a good idea to curtail them?

No matter what the stats are someone will find a way to cheat at PA, as you found out sadly last round. I think my stars are fine. If we really wanted to get nitty gritty then the fact that all races can steal pods gives a higher chance of people getting the pods they want. Which will lessen any arranged disadvantage
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 17:11   #62
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
And using the excuse that "people" whined about not being able to play xan during the round without xan in stats, to justify this... is just proper bullshit. A few people might have commented it, but they speak for themselves and not others.
But you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I'll be more direct. It is not my job to stop cheaters....
Actually, it kind of is. You're not a multihunter, but in your capacity of stats maker you are partly in charge of providing players with a good experience. And that means an environment free of cheating, or as free from cheating as possible without overly harming other aspects of the game. Like it or not, the stats are a part of the game, and incentivizing cheating counts as a strike against them. That's not a death sentence. It would be a sign of intellectual integrity if you could acknowledge that providing an advantage to pod farmers is not a good thing.

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No matter what the stats are someone will find a way to cheat at PA, as you found out sadly last round.
"We can never have a 100% cheat-free environment, therefore encouraging cheating is A-OK!"
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 18:15   #63
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
But you do?
Why? It was MY opinion
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 18:56   #64
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
If you base your ally strat around something conditional like pod stealing them you are doomed to fail, simple as.
But you've based your ship class & race balancing assumptions on people being able to steal into the 3rd pod class? Kinda hypocritical!

Stealing in this game is broken atm - nobody lands red calcs and therefore only cheats end up with sufficient stolen ships to make them useful.
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 19:01   #65
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Why prevent cheaters my gimping a good idea to curtail them?

No matter what the stats are someone will find a way to cheat at PA, as you found out sadly last round. I think my stars are fine. If we really wanted to get nitty gritty then the fact that all races can steal pods gives a higher chance of people getting the pods they want. Which will lessen any arranged disadvantage
Ofcourse there are a lot of ways to cheat, and some will try other ways too, but this pod farming is something special. A Terran Fi fleet without fi pods has a very different power than a Terran Fi fleet with pods, while the pods itself are only a few k in value.
So an alliance that is ok with cheating, can go half terran half xan fi, not tag up yet, have the xan fi hit the Terrans, lose a few pods, tag up and be set for the full round with a Fi attack strat.
This is true for Fi but also for most other classes. You've set up your set so each race can steal useful ships, which is all nice and good, but also so that they need to steal pods to make that class an attack class. Which is why this set is different from most other sets and why its such a cheat friendly set.

And I just don't understand why you want to take this risk and don't just add the third pods for each race.
Then you can still steal useful ships with your own stealship , but stealing pods wont be vital to using a certain shipclass for attacking.
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Unread 19 Jul 2017, 19:49   #66
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Ofcourse there are a lot of ways to cheat, and some will try other ways too, but this pod farming is something special. A Terran Fi fleet without fi pods has a very different power than a Terran Fi fleet with pods, while the pods itself are only a few k in value.
So an alliance that is ok with cheating, can go half terran half xan fi, not tag up yet, have the xan fi hit the Terrans, lose a few pods, tag up and be set for the full round with a Fi attack strat.
This is true for Fi but also for most other classes. You've set up your set so each race can steal useful ships, which is all nice and good, but also so that they need to steal pods to make that class an attack class. Which is why this set is different from most other sets and why its such a cheat friendly set.

And I just don't understand why you want to take this risk and don't just add the third pods for each race.
Then you can still steal useful ships with your own stealship , but stealing pods wont be vital to using a certain shipclass for attacking.
It's not a risk imo. You have yours, I have mine. My set will stay as is.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 01:36   #67
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
It's not a risk imo. You have yours, I have mine. My set will stay as is.
So let me get this straight.

A "normal" set of stats, we would at most have two races (zik/etd) who can pod farm. So at most 40% of the races can pod farm and we see plenty of it.

But now we have 100% of the races who can pod farm and only give alliances a legitimate option of 2 out of 6 classes that they can team up on (co/fr) and your telling me you don't think this is a risk?

Get your head out of the sand.

How ignorant do you want to be?

How many people need to jump up and down about this, before this is recognised as a massive issue?

There is such a simple solution and fix to the issue, that doesn't need wide spread changes to your stats and would be welcomed by the entire community. But in doing that I guess that would dent your ego, so I'm guessing, we are stuck with these risky stats now.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 03:09   #68
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

If a system is open to abuse, it will be abused. You can complain about those doing it and claim it's not your job to stop it, but in the real world you take it into account. You don't just ignore the issue and claim innocence.

At this point it's best to go past Kaiba and just address Jintao, because it's clear he's not going to change his mind. You've provided an interesting 3-pod set and for whatever reason refuse to add the third pod. Without it, it's going to be a much more defensive round with a ton of 1-ship fleet stoppers.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 05:12   #69
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

I'll be opening up a pod farming service for free. Contact me via the usual channels and we can arrange.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 06:03   #70
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

I feel that no one here has actually looked at these stats properly. That you have all just jumped on sh7s ridiculously pessimistic view of community.

If we use Ter Fi/Xan Fi as an example you are saying that unscrupulous people will actively use Pegs to farm pods with questionable lands to gain pods. Giving that alliance some supposedly brilliant attack fleet (which it isn't).

Terran and Xan are both massively open to FR incs (they both only have emp to stop it and emp eff set around 120%, hardly spectacular). You don't have to farm pods as FR, you get access to vastly superior def ships than Ter has on offer.

Infact any steal a pod option you try has no outstanding benefits in doing so. I could sit here and pick any teamup apart and that's the point of it all.

The option is there to try and obtain a 3rd class but honestly there is no benefit in going out your way to devise a strat around it. It's way too much legwork and risk to implement for no advantage of note.

The best strategy with these stats is probably no strategy at all, to allow people to play as they wish as every race has equal benefits and flaws. What we are seeing is people from alliances realising this and panicking and moaning here and find silly reasons to get their way and be able to spam 3-4 ships all round.

I won't be changing the pod situation. I have Jintao that is my standpoint and I'd rather take the set down than add a 3rd pod.

Maybe it's time for some other suggestions on what is there, I'm still getting good calcs so I'm happy so far.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 07:04   #71
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Can we have a poll about if this set Shall be Used in it current condition please!?
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 07:08   #72
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I feel that no one here has actually looked at these stats properly. That you have all just jumped on sh7s ridiculously pessimistic view of community.
So everyone is just blindly following my lead. I'd love that to be true, but somehow doubt it.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 07:31   #73
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post

If we use Ter Fi/Xan Fi as an example you are saying that unscrupulous people will actively use Pegs to farm pods with questionable lands to gain pods. Giving that alliance some supposedly brilliant attack fleet (which it isn't).

No then you're not paying attention, its not some briljant attack fleet, its just a complete attack fleet, without the pods for Ter, Xan fi has to attack alone, and any single Scarab fleet covers even bigger teamups.

But I think Patrikc's post explains it more clearly about the 3 pod set but not adding the third pod.

In those bcalcs you're making, are you calcing with Ter/Xan fi team up together vs def or Xan fi solo?
are you calcing with Ter/Zik BS together vs def or Ter solo?
Ter/Cath DE together or Ter DE solo?
etc etc
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 07:33   #74
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The best strategy with these stats is probably no strategy at all, to allow people to play as they wish as every race has equal benefits and flaws.
That right there is the problem.

Alliance A doesn't cheat they don't really have an option but to go with some sort of mix/limited strategy.

Alliance B does cheat and gains the benefit of team ups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I won't be changing the pod situation. I have Jintao that is my standpoint and I'd rather take the set down than add a 3rd pod.
That says it all rather than listening to the numerous amount of people who have have brought up this issue (with an easy solution to fix our concerns, which will still result in a great interesting set of stats) you rather them be taken down.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 07:59   #75
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Swainey View Post
That right there is the problem.

Alliance A doesn't cheat they don't really have an option but to go with some sort of mix/limited strategy.

Alliance B does cheat and gains the benefit of team ups.
Swainey, you realise the opportunity to team up doesnt solely hinge on steal pods, right?

If we're going to give the 3rd pod class, why even both with stealers since you already have everything youll need.

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That says it all rather than listening to the numerous amount of people who have have brought up this issue (with an easy solution to fix our concerns, which will still result in a great interesting set of stats) you rather them be taken down.
8 players saying they want tweeks isnt numerous.

Theres been plenty of players, good players, who said they're happy with them.

I really like the stats. If you cant steal the 3rd pod with these, you should just quit.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 08:01   #76
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Swainey View Post
That right there is the problem.

Alliance A doesn't cheat they don't really have an option but to go with some sort of mix/limited strategy.

Alliance B does cheat and gains the benefit of team ups.
There is no benefit to cheating to Fi, De, Cr or Bs strategy. They are NOT better than what is already there. Something everyone is missing.

Quote:

That says it all rather than listening to the numerous amount of people who have have brought up this issue (with an easy solution to fix our concerns, which will still result in a great interesting set of stats) you rather them be taken down.
5-6 people in a community of 600+ have commented. That is not numerous, that is around 1%. These are the stats I made and I want them played the way I made. I don't want them pulled and prodded and the concept of them completely changed to satisfy a very vocal but extremely small minority. That is my right as the stat maker to want my set to stay intact and true to how they were created.

If someone has a genuine targeting or int change suggestion with a solid reason behind it then I will look at it, change it on beta, calc it, decide if it's better and then implement it or not. If someone suggests that raising the AC of steal across the board would give X benefit to the stats the same process will happen.

5 shouty people who want a lazy round with a lazy strategy that allows them to play half assed by completely changing the entire concept of what the stats were intended to play like will not get their change, and I would rather the set wasn't played that have that happen. That is my prerogative.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 08:20   #77
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
There is no benefit to cheating to Fi, De, Cr or Bs strategy. They are NOT better than what is already there. Something everyone is missing.
Xan Fi goes from being hit first by Scarabs to being able to emp beforehand with Ter Fi Valkrye - Advantage to cheating.

De gets owned by xan and in my opinion is one of the weakest classes no real advantage of teaming nor can i see anyone picking De, so thats fine. Thats one.

Cath Cr goes from being hit first by Widow to being able to hit first with Xan Cr Spectre - Advantage to cheating.

Ter Bs goes from being hit first by Rascal to being able to emp beforehand with Zik Bs Pirate - Advantage to cheating.

So 3/4 out of the 4 team ups have a huge advantage if an alliance cheats to allow widespread team ups.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 09:15   #78
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
5-6 people in a community of 600+ have commented. That is not numerous, that is around 1%.
The flip-side is of that 600+ community we have, 0% of the community have come to your aid to say how this set isn't advantageous to cheaters.

I hate that this set has gone against the lore of the races. My improvement without significantly changing the set would be to change 'Steal' to 'Norm' here you go - :%s/Steal/Norm/g
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 09:58   #79
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
5 shouty people who want a lazy round with a lazy strategy that allows them to play half assed by completely changing the entire concept of what the stats were intended to play like will not get their change, and I would rather the set wasn't played that have that happen. That is my prerogative.
Attacking the people who comment on your shipstats isnt very helpful.
Nor do any of the comments have anything to do with 'lazy'
I'm guessing the people who are so interested in shipstats they post here are often the ones making ally fleet strat and will have no problem playing and using any shipstats we get to their advantage.

In your calcing have you seen how steal vs higher init steal works? it's basically a worse version of the suicide def we have in earlier rounds.
Because you added steal to all the races, it is more relevant atm.

For example in current rounds shipstats, Pegs can full stop xan fi, but that doesnt mess up the set too much, since xan fi can 3x attack with cloaked and try to avoid the pegs.

In your set, without the 3rd pod class, you have for example Scarabs vs Xan fi.
The scarab steals xan fi, then because you lose ships while stealing, the scarabs disappear and in return the xan fi does no damage back.

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=2jjryo2w8g853sr

Meaning any scarab defense fully stops the xan fi attacking, theres not even any risk for the scarabs, even vs far bigger value attackers they gain value by defending.

The same is true for Xan fi defending vs Terran De.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 10:01   #80
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Swainey View Post

De gets owned by xan and in my opinion is one of the weakest classes no real advantage of teaming nor can i see anyone picking De, so thats fine. Thats one.
You can farm DE pods and team up with Scarabs so xan fi doesnt fire at you first. So its beneficial for 4/4 teamups.
Ofc its still weakish vs Xan FR, but at least you need a decent amount of value to stop the attack fleet, not just any value will do.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 10:16   #81
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Those stats doesn't address a fundamental issue that need to be addressed if they go live; the races lore.

Xan and Zik doesn't get the bonus Terran and Cath get in terms of construction/research/salvage/armor because they relied on the fact that they were the only races with stealth and steal ships. This cannot go live without those issues being fixed.

Although you seem to have relatively balanced the armor and E/R across the board at quick glance, it doesn't address the other issues.

I hope you do keep those stats but for another round and take the round to tweak them though. They have potential but they have serious issues atm.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 11:07   #82
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by ChroNOS View Post
Those stats doesn't address a fundamental issue that need to be addressed if they go live; the races lore.

Xan and Zik doesn't get the bonus Terran and Cath get in terms of construction/research/salvage/armor because they relied on the fact that they were the only races with stealth and steal ships. This cannot go live without those issues being fixed.

Although you seem to have relatively balanced the armor and E/R across the board at quick glance, it doesn't address the other issues.

I hope you do keep those stats but for another round and take the round to tweak them though. They have potential but they have serious issues atm.
Yeah I completely agree about the race advantages, I know Jintao asked earlier here for suggestion on it. No one has replied though. I think leveling the rp/cp (maybe a descrepency of say 5 either way ie. Cat 110 RP/90 CP, Terran 90 RP/110 CP, ZIK 105/95, XAN 95/105) This would be more even a setup and provide no super advantage to any team but still allow you to have a style of play. As for bonuses I would probably give Ter 10% con cost reduction, Cat 10% Research boost, Xan 8% Production Cost reduction and Zik 10% higher stealth/alert. And that's all and level the start-ups cp/rp across the field.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 11:42   #83
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Guess i should put in a few words myself so that everyone is on the same level.

First off this is still a set proposal thread, while it's the only offer to date, nobody has said yet that this set will be used. It's still a proposal which is up for consideration along side with rerunning an old set. As per usual the set to be used will be announced and called final when signups open.

Qua targetting and balance i think the set overall does well at the moment, but yes it's something new and different. Which i don't think is a bad thing. Especially since i get complaints that sets look/feel too much the same all the time.

We've done other weird things in the past like removing etd, zik and even xan for a round. We've had 2 and 3 pod sets. We've had 0 loss def sets and sets with weird EMP values. PA has alot of options and i personally applaud every effort to do something different and new instead of always sticking to same exact same concept/rules.

While i try to ensure a certain degree of balance in a set i also believe that the creator of a set should get a certain amount of creative freedom to put his style into a set. Else every set would be a clone of all of my preferences.

In this case that mainly means stealing your third pod. Something i've done too in a past xmas set which actually turned out to be fun.

I've made a few comments to kaiba to date about his set he has chosen to not implement which i've respected upto now under what i call "personal creativity":
  • Give the third pod for free
  • Make the set more MT

In full transparancy i've also made a few other comments to him regarding his set that are still not resolved:
  • Kaiba wanted higher salvage rates to improve defensibility. I questioned the need for this and said we'll see how the set plays out in bcalcs. I've seen that kaiba stated he was happy with the bcalcs under the default salvage rates. So he might not want/need the higher salvage rate afterall. Still have to talk this through with him next time he comes on IRC. (Hint Hint Kaiba)
  • A new racial bonus system needs to be worked out to replace the current bonuses since they don't apply anymore in a full ETD universe. I'm still waiting on a proposal for this. Without this, this set can't be played. And to be honest this will not be an easy task to accomplish in the short time remaining.

I also told kaiba today that i definately want to see a beta happen with these stats before any descission is made on this set. But the beta can't happen with the current racial setup. Cat still has 40% salvage rate. So we need a new racial setup before we can launch a beta.

After the beta we can than evaluate this set properly regarding
  • The pod stealing thing
  • The required salvage rate
  • Set balancing
  • Racial balancing

At this point i might overrule kaiba's wishes or not. But we are still far away from this point considering signups open in 8 days and their is still alot of work to be done.

So my suggestion to everyone is move on from the pod thing for now and help kaiba come up with a balanced racial setup and come play the beta to see for yourself if your issues have merrit or not. If they still do speak up and i promise we'll listen.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 12:19   #84
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Can we just name all 4 races ETD, but then ETD 1 ETD 2 ETD 3 ETD 4 or come up with some faction within ETD with a fancy name, then nobody can bitch about the race lore, and we can simply use ETD racial stats for all 4.

Not sure how a Beta is gonna help you see if people will cheat for pods in real round. That seems a bit silly.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 12:29   #85
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Can we just name all 4 races ETD, but then ETD 1 ETD 2 ETD 3 ETD 4 or come up with some faction within ETD with a fancy name, then nobody can bitch about the race lore, and we can simply use ETD racial stats for all 4.

Not sure how a Beta is gonna help you see if people will cheat for pods in real round. That seems a bit silly.
Beta gives no implication at all on how a round will play out imo. Totally a useless feature besides bug hunting.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 13:39   #86
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

The sole useful point of beta is to provide access to the bcalc. Using it for anything else is a recipe for disaster.


Anyway. I've looked at the stats for a bit. I haven't bothered looking at teamups: these stats are fairly offensive, and I assume that most teamups can roid everything.

First off, there's a few misspelled ship names: Valkyrie, Leviathan and Mantis. They hurt my soul. Please don't hurt my soul.


The targetting overlap between Chimera and Ter Bs makes faking De as Bs much less useful. The same is true for Xan Fi and Shadow.

Every stolen fleet needs a non-stolen fleet in case the steals don't go your way (or your pod farm gets closed before you can get to it). It also needs the ship that steals into the right class. If the non-stolen fleet contains the ship that steals into your stolen fleet, that's great. That means Xan Cr is non-viable, because the above constraints require Fi/Cr to build Fi/Cr/Occult/Apparition/Genie, for 7 ships total. Fr/Cr is non-viable because of targetting overlaps, Xan Fr being the strongest fleet, and Xan gimped research putting Cr out of range. In a normal round, not providing the cloaked race with a third roiding fleet would be a good move. In this one, not so much.

Zik, on the other hand, has a ton of viable fleet combinations. Pure Co, pure Fr, Co/Fr (no targetting overlap) and Fr/Bs are all doable.


As for balancing issues, Ter Bs and Ter Fi/Bs) both look very strong. Excepting Xan Cr, I would say all the stolen fleets (Ter Fi/Bs, Cat De/Cr, Zik Fr/Bs) are fairly strong. That adds to my worry of these stats playing into the hands of pod farmers. Xan Fr is very strong as well.

Shhhhhhh is right about Xan Fi being a hard counter against Ter De. Both fleets are on the weak side in general, especially Xan Fi, which gets roided by everything other than Ter De. The pure Cat Co and Cat Cr fleets are pretty weak. Zik Fr has more holes in its defense than Swiss cheese.


Overall, though, these look pretty good. If I were Jintao (or Kaiba, I guess), I'd look into buffing Xan Fi and Zik Fr and nerfing Ter Bs and Xan Fr a little (defensively, all 4), and giving a third pod to every race to give legit players reliable access to the third fleet. I suspect Xan Cr is unfixable without a lot of changes, and the inevitable side-effects such changes would have mean I wouldn't bother trying.


P.S. On behalf of techies everywhere: please, please, please don't rename the races!
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 14:01   #87
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The sole useful point of beta is to provide access to the bcalc. Using it for anything else is a recipe for disaster.


Anyway. I've looked at the stats for a bit. I haven't bothered looking at teamups: these stats are fairly offensive, and I assume that most teamups can roid everything.

First off, there's a few misspelled ship names: Valkyrie, Leviathan and Mantis. They hurt my soul. Please don't hurt my soul.


The targetting overlap between Chimera and Ter Bs makes faking De as Bs much less useful. The same is true for Xan Fi and Shadow.

Every stolen fleet needs a non-stolen fleet in case the steals don't go your way (or your pod farm gets closed before you can get to it). It also needs the ship that steals into the right class. If the non-stolen fleet contains the ship that steals into your stolen fleet, that's great. That means Xan Cr is non-viable, because the above constraints require Fi/Cr to build Fi/Cr/Occult/Apparition/Genie, for 7 ships total. Fr/Cr is non-viable because of targetting overlaps, Xan Fr being the strongest fleet, and Xan gimped research putting Cr out of range. In a normal round, not providing the cloaked race with a third roiding fleet would be a good move. In this one, not so much.

Zik, on the other hand, has a ton of viable fleet combinations. Pure Co, pure Fr, Co/Fr (no targetting overlap) and Fr/Bs are all doable.


As for balancing issues, Ter Bs and Ter Fi/Bs) both look very strong. Excepting Xan Cr, I would say all the stolen fleets (Ter Fi/Bs, Cat De/Cr, Zik Fr/Bs) are fairly strong. That adds to my worry of these stats playing into the hands of pod farmers. Xan Fr is very strong as well.

Shhhhhhh is right about Xan Fi being a hard counter against Ter De. Both fleets are on the weak side in general, especially Xan Fi, which gets roided by everything other than Ter De. The pure Cat Co and Cat Cr fleets are pretty weak. Zik Fr has more holes in its defense than Swiss cheese.


Overall, though, these look pretty good. If I were Jintao (or Kaiba, I guess), I'd look into buffing Xan Fi and Zik Fr and nerfing Ter Bs and Xan Fr a little (defensively, all 4), and giving a third pod to every race to give legit players reliable access to the third fleet. I suspect Xan Cr is unfixable without a lot of changes, and the inevitable side-effects such changes would have mean I wouldn't bother trying.


P.S. On behalf of techies everywhere: please, please, please don't rename the races!
Thank you for your constructive post. I'll look into the suggestions in detail this evening and tomorrow. I'll do the name changes now! :P
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 14:24   #88
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Kaiba you are missing one thing about Sk's you have now made them lightclass ships so effectively you can use them directly after 24 hr protection. This allows no time for planets to build sd's without stalling research yet again because you are limited with con points at beginning. Please address this issue by giving more con points at start or limiting Sk's production till after 72 hrs.

Two issues with ships other than losing traditional races is change the salvage bonus for cats way unfair now that cat has kill and steal ships. I can't see any way out of not building 5 ship types minimum from all three classes very un efficient build as your stretching your value across five ships rather than four.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 15:32   #89
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by zazael View Post
Kaiba you are missing one thing about Sk's you have now made them lightclass ships so effectively you can use them directly after 24 hr protection. This allows no time for planets to build sd's without stalling research yet again because you are limited with con points at beginning. Please address this issue by giving more con points at start or limiting Sk's production till after 72 hrs.

Two issues with ships other than losing traditional races is change the salvage bonus for cats way unfair now that cat has kill and steal ships. I can't see any way out of not building 5 ship types minimum from all three classes very un efficient build as your stretching your value across five ships rather than four.
Depends what tech level he set in the stats.
Often SKs are set to tech 3.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 15:35   #90
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by zazael View Post
Kaiba you are missing one thing about Sk's you have now made them lightclass ships so effectively you can use them directly after 24 hr protection. This allows no time for planets to build sd's without stalling research yet again because you are limited with con points at beginning. Please address this issue by giving more con points at start or limiting Sk's production till after 72 hrs.

You can manually set which type of Research a ship needs to be unlocked, regardless of class. Traditionally, SKs have needed Siege Hulls. On a related note, the same goes for Cloak - even an EMP ship could be made cloaked!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siege Hulls
Provides access to the biggest ships available, and a special ship tailored to destroy structures.
Edit - got butchered.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 15:59   #91
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

For the racial bonuses aspect - if this set is used - I'd simply make them all equal for the most part.

Remove Cath salvage bonus and everything else can probably stay as-is.


- Edit - Could also fiddle with the Universe Trade Tax to add some variation, or maybe a small mining bonus or resource production bonus
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 17:58   #92
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

I agree that the Cat salvage bonus should go. Beyond that, I think the current settings are fine, but if Kaiba (or someone else) wanted to change them, that would be fine too. A strong 'whatever' from me!
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 18:47   #93
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

This is my racial suggestion and startup suggestion:

I think its 'pretty' even whilst still allowing playstyles and tarditional options for scanners/covopers etc..


Terran

Max Steath: 85
Stealth Growth per tick: 7
Base Construction Units: 105
Base Research Units: 95
Production Bonus: 15%
Universal Trade Tax: 15%


Cathaar

Max Steath: 80
Stealth Growth per tick: 8
Base Construction Units: 95
Base Research Units: 105
Production Bonus: 10%
Universal Trade Tax: 10%



Xandathrii:

Max Steath: 80
Stealth Growth per tick: 6
Base Construction Units: 100
Base Research Units: 95
Production Bonus: 15%
Universal Trade Tax: 15%


Zikonian

Max Steath: 85
Stealth Growth per tick: 8
Base Construction Units: 95
Base Research Units: 100
Production Bonus: 10%
Universal Trade Tax: 10%









Cathaar
Research Points to be allocated: 8,600
Construction Units to be allocated: 7,400


Terran
Research Points to be allocated: 7,400
Construction Units to be allocated: 8,600


Xandathrii
Research Points to be allocated: 8,300
Construction Units to be allocated: 8,700


Zikonian
Research Points to be allocated: 8,700
Construction Units to be allocated: 8,300



** ALSO ALL SKS WILL BE SET TO SEIGE HULLS **
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 19:22   #94
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

The start up research/construction points is a result of the races base Research/Con points, with so many things changing, can we keep that part the same?

But I agree these Race Base points make more sense than the current ones.
No reason to give any race a bigger advantage or disadvantage now their ships are similar.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 20:02   #95
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Sorry, Kaiba, but those look incredibly boring. +5%, -5%, that's all lost in the noise.


I forgot to include this in my previous post: I think higher salvage rates would be a good thing with this set.
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 20:48   #96
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
The start up research/construction points is a result of the races base Research/Con points, with so many things changing, can we keep that part the same?
To be specific:
Research points to allocate = Base RP * 80
Construction points to allocate = Base CU * 70

I'm fine with things being more moderate, honestly, because Yet always had a big value advantage because of its constructions. With Xan needing Siege this round to cover a class, it would be open to Cr for half the round with the old RP output and the new restrictions on Population.

Though I wonder, why give every race a bonus to production?
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Unread 20 Jul 2017, 21:07   #97
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
To be specific:
Research points to allocate = Base RP * 80
Construction points to allocate = Base CU * 70

I'm fine with things being more moderate, honestly, because Yet always had a big value advantage because of its constructions. With Xan needing Siege this round to cover a class, it would be open to Cr for half the round with the old RP output and the new restrictions on Population.

Though I wonder, why give every race a bonus to production?
Because Jintao said he thinks you can only do production or salvage and tbh there is enough tears about stealing andsavage and what not already so i went safe.
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Unread 21 Jul 2017, 06:50   #98
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Because Jintao said he thinks you can only do production or salvage and tbh there is enough tears about stealing andsavage and what not already so i went safe.
Safe = pointless?
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Unread 21 Jul 2017, 07:58   #99
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
Safe = pointless?
OK where is your idea? Lot of hot air and not a lot of solutions coming from your way.

At least I'm trying to find a way to work it out. We could just cats 40% salvage bonus?!?

Time to be constructive Theo and not a troll I think.
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Unread 21 Jul 2017, 09:32   #100
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Re: Kai's Rd 73 Stats

Scrap all bonuses, make all races have equal start up imo if this set is to be ran.
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