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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 10:16   #151
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Influence I have played Terran once in 13 rounds. I dunno how that make me a Terran whore.
i didn't say you were a terran whore tho...
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 10:25   #152
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Why do you assume that I want to resolve the Syren/Dragon thing in favour of Dragons?
Resolving it in favour of Syren would mean ter can't land on ter anymore, but ter BS is still the best vs all other races so a big chunk of the uni will go ter imho. With same init shooting you at least keep 'focker' attacks as a possibility when you wanna take down a big ter. I don't feel that changing the Syren/Dragon onslaught in itself would be an improvement to these stats. Granted you also suggested some other changes to keep ter BS from becoming dominant, which imho are far better changes.
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 10:49   #153
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
If as everyone here says ter bs is amazing then systems will be built by all those terrains making it shit to land. So will everyone go Terran??
I don't think I can reply to this without pissing off Monroe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
Resolving it in favour of Syren would mean ter can't land on ter anymore, but ter BS is still the best vs all other races so a big chunk of the uni will go ter imho. With same init shooting you at least keep 'focker' attacks as a possibility when you wanna take down a big ter. I don't feel that changing the Syren/Dragon onslaught in itself would be an improvement to these stats. Granted you also suggested some other changes to keep ter BS from becoming dominant, which imho are far better changes.
Like I said, I don't know how to fix it. Maybe you could reserve your ire for when I actually suggest concrete changes, rather than posting replies based on random assumptions.
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 18:36   #154
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Beetle's targetting order makes Mantis useless. How about Beetle to T1 Co, T2 Fi, and Mantis to T1 Fi? Not seeing the point of the Beetle's T3, no one's going to send a million Beetles to cover 200 Ter Bs, so just drop it.
It doesn't make Mantis useless at all. You'll just need some CO/FI flak to eat the beetle emp fire. Besides, t3 emp eff is horrible. It's good that you can't just send 10k Mantis and get free kill on a cath. Cath is the race that suffers the most from losing any ships and since they only hug it's nonesense to have any free kill ships for their roiding classes.
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Golan - Ascendancy

Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 19:17   #155
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Re: Round 49 Stats

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
since they only hug it's nonesense to have any free kill ships for their roiding classes.
indeed, i don't recall a round where it happened
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 19:32   #156
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Influence I have played Terran once in 13 rounds. I dunno how that make me a Terran whore. I think far more is playable than people say. Most the universe wanted to go xan this round, we will see what happens now.

If as everyone here says ter bs is amazing then systems will be built by all those terrains making it shit to land. So will everyone go Terran??
If everyone goes terran, terran will actually suffer since the best race at defending against terran is.... terran. If everyone went terran, we'd be having an init war. Xan is the best counter to Ter on the offensive side for the first 500 or so ticks, after that the terran planets will start catching up to the xan's dists numbers. Xan will still be good at roiding terrans after that ofc, but not _as_ good. Terran BS also roids xan, so it's unlikely there will be lot of high value xans in a ter dominated universe. Focker type alliance with all xan is definitely viable.
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Golan - Ascendancy

Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 20:54   #157
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Can we expect more changes or? Doesn't seem like the feedback we're giving is being considered.
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Unread 13 Oct 2012, 22:12   #158
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Re: Round 49 Stats

I have handed them into Appocomaster now. Any more changes will be his now. Yes they are defensive but i think they are reasonably balanced now.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 03:00   #159
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Wtf is the point in having someone make stats if Appoc changes them fundamentally anyway? Now we had initial defensive stats that were made even more defensive...
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Golan - Ascendancy

Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 03:11   #160
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Re: Round 49 Stats

ok, going to bed; will sort out what's happening with stats tomorrow
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 03:34   #161
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
I have admittedly made changes; not sure they're more defensive though.
I've:
tried to implement a round-robin approach to fr/de to "fix" them
(as a fallout of this, the harpy/gryphon have become the harpy/phoenix)
changed a/c and d/c to:
-strengthen de
-weaken terran bs
-strengthen fi slightly

also changed emp to:
-bring guardian more in line with other emp ships
-increase guns on tarantula / widow / viper


I've also dropped a few of the unnecessarily high inits for xan so they don't look so weird with so many init 8 ships.
Finally, I've reordered a couple of ships because bigger / more expensive ships were above smaller/cheaper ships.

Unless there are major objections, will confirm them as final when I wake up
That's a very general way of saying you just changed everything. These are NOTHING like the stats that were turned in. Now xans don't need siege, xan DE target 5 classes, FR balance is completely reworked and now even ter BS have to team up to roid anyone. They are very, very defensive because you force everyone to do bigger team ups even on smaller planets
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Golan - Ascendancy

Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 06:13   #162
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Re: Round 49 Stats

"made de better"
Dont like the drake change at all, you made it total garbage imo.
With drake change and cutter change and even roach targetting them now.
Drake should go back to cr fr and bomber should have init 5 if you plan on having cutter init 6.

You also said you tweaked ac/Dc to make fi better? Did fi get better with giving spider a awesome anti fi. aswell as giving harpy anti fi with good ac/dc and not atleast improving the armor of cutlasses with close to 20%
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 08:16   #163
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Re: Round 49 Stats

We need final stats more than new changes. There will always be unhappy people. I like the Drake change coz it makes the 0 loss def vs Cath CR disappear.
When you see that the universe compo is only 12% cath and 13% etd you know there's something wrong. I think the (famous) Appocco Twist addresses that.

R49 was going to be Ter BS vs Xan FI, now it seems Zik/etd FR will have a part to play. Cath will depend on the EMP power which can make them shit or great... but always difficult to play.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 08:50   #164
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Part to play?? Zik/etd fr forts are now immune to incs. Appoco completely ruined the stats that were there, this is now an int race round. Cheers appocomaster. These are 100% not my stats anymore
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 09:01   #165
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Also find the stat process quite weird, you want people to submit stats spend alot of time reviewing and tweaking them. Then without their concent just rip it apart and do huge changes.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 09:02   #166
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Combos are combos, I'm sure there are other combinations that will make a fort gal immune to incs. I hope that MH will look carefully into the ships donations to Ziks, coz they rock already without cheating (which is rare enough).
Your stats or not is irrelevant to the players, i don't understand the need to emowhine here about it. PM Appocco.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 09:30   #167
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Ill comment on it where I see fit. I shouldn't have to pm appoco. If he was that unhappy with them and wanted big changes then he should have pmed me. He picked my stats (without any heads up), I have now spent the best part of a week tweaking and calibrating them to incorporate as many good suggestions as possible whilst still trying to keep true to the original idea, I have spent a lot of time on them, now he just wades in and makes wholesale changes without asking why something was as it was. Zik was already OP then he made it immune to bs incs, making it even stronger. I think I have heard like 8 different setups ppl found viable in my stats and we had managed to stem the influence of focker style play, now that has been completely ripped apart, without a word from him.

Why did a waste a week of my time for this???
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 09:51   #168
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Cath needed the improvement. Init3 to Lancers doesn't help the Fockers I think.
Zik have only 1 kill ship, for most of the rest they fire last, i'm sure there are ways to land on them.

You were pushing stats making into pre-arranging a scenario for the whole round, that's wrong imho. The way I see it, people can play with more races now.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 10:13   #169
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Re: Round 49 Stats

That one kill ship of zik disables a entire race. Hopefully appoco realize he ****ed up
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 10:20   #170
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Re: Round 49 Stats

First of all, stats aren't final. Second of all, your stats were terrible kaiba. Not saying the current set is much better, but I prefer them.

How you could say zik was OP in your stats is beyond me, I almost always play zik and I would never have picked them in your stats. In your stats zik were too weak and Terran was way OP.

Personally I think something has to be done to the cutter as it's currently too good
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 10:35   #171
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Bomber for sure needs init 5 / Peg fico -> fifr

De needs some kind of usage. Right now De is hardcountered by everything but de.
And de is at best a supersoftcounter to a few classes if you spend all your value there for flak.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 10:38   #172
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Why does bomber "for sure" need init 5?
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 10:48   #173
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Re: Round 49 Stats

coz he wants the bomber to stop alone the Zik/Etd FR combo... which is pushing it too far i think.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 11:05   #174
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Changes to be made:

Drake-> T1 Cr T2 fr init 6

Spider T1 FR T2 None guns->2

Banshee Init->6

Cutter T1 De T2 BS init 8

Lancer init->4 A/C -> 352 D/C 352


Undo what you did Appocomaster
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 11:07   #175
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Zik was already OP
lol



(P.S. Appoco, whatever you do, please make it clearer what changes you make. "Made de stronger" is useless. Did you boost the effs? Add a T2 somewhere? Change the targetting on an anti-de ship? Specifics please!)
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 11:15   #176
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Re: Round 49 Stats

With implementing the changes tia comes with here, we could actually get some kind of fluid picking of races and strats, as the classes gets more even. Instead of the way it will be now with everything being built around ziks part in the game.

Id go with all thoose except maybe just one of the two changes on the spider.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 11:28   #177
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Re: Round 49 Stats

I think that if one removes the cutters t2 then stats don't look so bad

every race will then have some holes and every podclass is able to solo at least 2 races
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 11:49   #178
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Drake-> T1 Cr T2 fr init 6
So you want ter to have 1 ship that makes them immune to 2 classes of inc again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Spider T1 FR T2 None guns->2
Banshee Init->6
So you want xans to target cath instead of ter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Cutter T1 De T2 BS init 8
So on top of making Zik unable to attack Ter, you want em to be unable to defend against Ter too?

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Lancer init->4 A/C -> 352 D/C 352
So you want Focker-style play back?
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 11:54   #179
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Re: Round 49 Stats

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I think that if one removes the cutters t2 then stats don't look so bad
secunded
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 12:53   #180
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Re: Round 49 Stats

The following changes were just made (not by me):

Drake:
Targets Bs/Fr -> Cr/Fr

Ghost:
Target Cr -> Bs

Spectre:
Class Cr -> Bs
Target Bs -> Cr

Cutter:
Targets Bs/De -> Bs

Pirate:
Targets Fr/De -> De/Fr

Centaur:
Init 5 -> 7

Juggernaut:
Armor 71 -> 67 (A/C 570 -> 538)
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 13:01   #181
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Re: Round 49 Stats

So the zik bs targeting is still there. The pointless Phoenix is still there and everything else was put back as it was??

So still the emphasis on zik + team mate?
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 13:04   #182
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Considering ziks are open to every class but co and fr i don't think they're THAT good. I personally would not go them at least.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 13:09   #183
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Re: Round 49 Stats

The mind boggles how you could say that the nix is useless
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 13:10   #184
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Cutter is fine now that it's only got a T1 and Harpy+Phoenix is a very viable alternative to Pegasus(+Drake).


These stats are clearly better than the ones you handed to Appoco. That said, I do think your stats could have been made about as good as these ones, with a little more work.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 13:42   #185
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Re: Round 49 Stats

most races seem to have some viable attack options except, xan de seems totally pointless as it cannot attack anything. xan fi isnt much better as there seems to be a lot that rapes it. defensively they are ok.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 13:44   #186
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Xan de can hit cath and etd

Xan fi can hit everything except etd.

Xan fi has a lot targetting it, and it needs to, or else it would just be too good. I'm not gonna hide the fact that the DE fleets are pretty shit, but the fr/de fleets usually are..
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 13:50   #187
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Re: Round 49 Stats

De has been improved quite a bit with this latest batch of changes, but I'd still call them the weakest attack fleet in these stats. Xan De is a bit better than Ter De, but because Ter De is pretty bad, lack of teamup options make Xan De a poor late game option too.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 13:55   #188
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Re: Round 49 Stats

I must apologise to Kai.

I've been very busy with personal stuff until pretty much yesterday. I started with some minor tweaks (cath emp was underpowered)

I then looked at de/fr and decided that it might be made more viable ... unfortunately, this all started at around 10pm and finished at 4am, and was a case of each tweak needing further tweaks and, towards the end, my tiredness meaning I missed fairly obvious things.

I've reverted most of the targeting changes but I acknowledge that these are my stats and not Kai's, and I apologise that I've changed them away from his ideals at such late notice.

I've made targetting changes to try and take a step back towards what Kai had, but he's not on IRC to apologise to and I think that the compromise is probably the more viable set of stats. also, I may have accidently not backed up the changes he made between the ones that I loaded onto the game on Friday, which makes it harder to revert quickly.


I apologise for not listing all the details of the changes; I tried to keep track at first but things were changing quite often.


Edit: Thanks for tracking the changes, mz.
Edit2: Increased the Mosquito damage from 5 to 9
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:02   #189
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Re: Round 49 Stats

can see how this isnt gonna happen every time.

or this. The numbers required seem too high, and thats without a very small amount of def from another race.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:07   #190
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
can see how this isnt gonna happen every time.
Dont you mean; http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=viu47c63sxez87s
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:10   #191
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Re: Round 49 Stats

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more realistic is this.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:11   #192
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Re: Round 49 Stats

WHat do you propose?
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:12   #193
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Re: Round 49 Stats

increasing empres of xan would be a decent start. wouldnt even need to be by much.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:15   #194
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Vampyre E/R definitely needs to be improved. Improving the E/R on other Xan De ships hurts Cat Co, so I'm not too hot on that.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:16   #195
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Re: Round 49 Stats

very few want to play cath, reduce their emp power and you better remove the race from the game. Xan always suck vs Emp, nothing new. Go attack Terrans. Everybody can attack Caths, it's good that not everyone can land easy.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:21   #196
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Subject to change, but currently, 27% of people disagree with your "very few" statement.

(I appear to have confused Isil: 13% Cat + 14% Etd = 27%.)
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:31   #197
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Re: Round 49 Stats

yes attacking ter is obviously the way to go ¬_¬

perhaps look at the stats before commenting makhil.
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:48   #198
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Re: Round 49 Stats

Cathaar 58(13%)... i guess you're right 58 is a huge amount, my bad.

Why go xan DE when FI are so much better, you want 2 perfect attack fleets and free landing on everybody ?
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 14:50   #199
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Re: Round 49 Stats

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
Cathaar 58(13%)... i guess you're right 58 is a huge amount, my bad.

Why go xan DE when FI are so much better, you want 2 perfect attack fleets and free landing on everybody ?
in what world are xan FI perfect?
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Unread 15 Oct 2012, 15:04   #200
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Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Mzyxptlk has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Round 49 Stats

Meh, it's unfortunate, but De is just going to suck this round. I would like to see it improved, but other than with effs, I don't see how it can be done without a complete overhaul.

I see the Vampyre has gotten its E/R boost though (50 -> 55). That's something.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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