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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 04:56   #51
Monroe
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Re: donation whores

I don't see anything wrong with what was done. I kinda like it, it creates some early round controversy for everyone to argue over, and puts a huge bulls eye on one planet, all good fun in my opinion. Clearly they did not violate any game rules, so in my view it is a perfectly legitimate strategy and it will be interesting to see what will happen as a result.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 08:09   #52
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post

One is donating to a lower value or new planet to become more competitive, not donating to a planet to make them double the value of the #2 planet.
using your logic...
its ok...

cause he's planet is only 60 ticks old fairly new actually.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 08:54   #53
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
I find it disgusting that people are allowed to get massive donations and raise to top ranks like that. Shouldn't something being done ?
Seeing you have nothing to back up this "unfairness" with, and all you do is moan about another player, having something you don't. This is childish jealousy nothing else.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 09:00   #54
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Re: donation whores

All in all I'm most surprised by the fact the ministry didn't manage to **** this up.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 09:50   #55
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Re: donation whores

Just FYI, I alerted people of the possibility of this in last round's EORC!! No shocker that fools don't pay attention tho. I give that planet about 1 week before he has crashed all that value.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 10:10   #56
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Re: donation whores

I'm not saying that if he crashed all that value he'd find himself being hit with a baseball bat from a dark alley, but he might want to start wearing a safety helmet and padding if he did
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 10:17   #57
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Just FYI, I alerted people of the possibility of this in last round's EORC!! No shocker that fools don't pay attention tho. I give that planet about 1 week before he has crashed all that value.
I don't think anyone listens to what you're saying anyway.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 10:27   #58
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
Seeing you have nothing to back up this "unfairness" with, and all you do is moan about another player, having something you don't. This is childish jealousy nothing else.
Cheating for an online wargame is childish at best, retarded more probably. I can't possibly be jealous of people that lame, I'm just disgusted MH find it normal (not surprised though).
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 10:37   #59
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
Cheating for an online wargame is childish at best, retarded more probably. I can't possibly be jealous of people that lame, I'm just disgusted MH find it normal (not surprised though).
It is not cheating, it is a strategy. He gives away his, and his gals ability, to attack, in exchange for building a terran fortress, that cannot be attacked without huge teamups, for a long while. Per definition you are jealous, because you are not capable to pull off a stunt like this yourself.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 10:40   #60
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Re: donation whores

How can using a feature be called cheating? Are you even thinking as you type or are you following the voices in your head all the way? :/
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 12:32   #61
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Re: donation whores

And now he's fcing the #2 planet
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 15:25   #62
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
And now he's fcing the #2 planet
Sounds like a cheat to me!
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 16:19   #63
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
And now he's fcing the #2 planet
I sense a strategy here. FC everyone who gets into his bash limit.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 16:22   #64
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Re: donation whores

I still hope BA crashes. I really want to see how he gets murdered by his galmates
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 16:38   #65
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
I don't see anything wrong with what was done. I kinda like it, it creates some early round controversy for everyone to argue over
Yeah controversy is whats needed in the start, not a fair game with everyone starting the same but controversy!

Quote:
and puts a huge bulls eye on one planet, all good fun in my opinion.
Which planet do you mean? the first planet to come into his bash range? as im fairly sure that no-ones planning to hit him as it isnt worth the fleets.

Quote:
Clearly they did not violate any game rules, so in my view it is a perfectly legitimate strategy and it will be interesting to see what will happen as a result.
Yes, he did not violate any game rules but it needs to be changed for next round to stop it happening again even more so if we go back to Buddy Packs, as if you're going random, the strategy would be to get 4 randoms to BP with you, donate to you then exile you out of the galaxy and they quit as they werent even people interested in playing.


However:
"Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy."

Is this not an unfair benefit for a planet?
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 16:46   #66
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Which planet do you mean? the first planet to come into his bash range? as im fairly sure that no-ones planning to hit him as it isnt worth the fleets.
Apparently makhil is at least!

Quote:
Yes, he did not violate any game rules but it needs to be changed for next round to stop it happening again even more so if we go back to Buddy Packs, as if you're going random, the strategy would be to get 4 randoms to BP with you, donate to you then exile you out of the galaxy and they quit as they werent even people interested in playing.
How exactly are you going to prevent this happening next round by the way? I've mentioned it before but the support planet rule really is garbage. Even if we banned this you could still get an entire alliance of 70 odd and get 400 other people to bp with them and use their accounts to def-whore and escort, and it'd still be completely legal. But heaven forbid someone actually defend someone else out of gal/ally and I'm so glad we coded that out

Quote:
However:
"Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy."

Is this not an unfair benefit for a planet?
Ignoring the fact that the support planet rule is both arbitrary and completely absurd, so trying to decide anything based on it is an exercise in futility at best, these actions weren't "repeated" in any sense (one time donations etc) so wouldn't qualify for it.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 16:52   #67
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Yes, he did not violate any game rules but it needs to be changed for next round to stop it happening again even more so if we go back to Buddy Packs, as if you're going random, the strategy would be to get 4 randoms to BP with you, donate to you then exile you out of the galaxy and they quit as they werent even people interested in playing.


However:
"Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy."

Is this not an unfair benefit for a planet?
Actually, if you follow the exact wording of the suppport planet rule, even planets signing up, donating and then deleting wouldn´t be a breach of it.

Concerning BA I fail to see an unfair benefit compared to any other private galaxy. Everyone _could_ have done it. Random galaxies obviously won´t, therefor I don´t take them into account here, it´s argueable already if a private galaxy is an unfair benefit compared to going random.
The galaxy used it´s resources in an unorthodox way. That´s the only fact about the whole matter. Any claim it would be an exploit lacks rational arguments. I still didn´t read a single point against the strat besides personal feelings.

You may argue this could be an unfair benefit for a single planet, but it certainly ain´t for the galaxy as a whole. It´s a private galaxy, they chose a strategy. I´m pretty sure most priv gals did. Is that an unfair advantage?
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 17:10   #68
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
How exactly are you going to prevent this happening next round by the way? I've mentioned it before but the support planet rule really is garbage. Even if we banned this you could still get an entire alliance of 70 odd and get 400 other people to bp with them and use their accounts to def-whore and escort, and it'd still be completely legal. But heaven forbid someone actually defend someone else out of gal/ally and I'm so glad we coded that out
Changing the donation rules.

Quote:
Ignoring the fact that the support planet rule is both arbitrary and completely absurd, so trying to decide anything based on it is an exercise in futility at best, these actions weren't "repeated" in any sense (one time donations etc) so wouldn't qualify for it.
That hasnt stopped the multihunters in the past and is crashing into someone on purpose to give them salvage allowed as it isnt a repeated action?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
Actually, if you follow the exact wording of the suppport planet rule, even planets signing up, donating and then deleting wouldn´t be a breach of it.
Then the rule is clearly wrong and needs changing.

Quote:
Concerning BA I fail to see an unfair benefit compared to any other private galaxy. Everyone _could_ have done it. Random galaxies obviously won´t, therefor I don´t take them into account here, it´s argueable already if a private galaxy is an unfair benefit compared to going random.
The galaxy used it´s resources in an unorthodox way. That´s the only fact about the whole matter. Any claim it would be an exploit lacks rational arguments. I still didn´t read a single point against the strat besides personal feelings.

You may argue this could be an unfair benefit for a single planet, but it certainly ain´t for the galaxy as a whole. It´s a private galaxy, they chose a strategy. I´m pretty sure most priv gals did. Is that an unfair advantage?
Again, i never mentioned unfair benefit for a galaxy, i mentioned unfair benefit for a planet which you said it could be (meaning yes it is) then starting debating galaxy unfairness which was never mentioned and he can exile out at any time but more than likely they will continue to play by just buying defence ships and flagshipping him to stop anyone from roiding him.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 17:11   #69
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
But heaven forbid someone actually defend someone else out of gal/ally and I'm so glad we coded that out
It seems to have slipped under the radar, but as of this round oog/oot def is once again possible as long as your alliances are allied with eachother.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 17:18   #70
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Changing the donation rules.
I meant more in what way. We currently have a score limit, a value limit and a maximum amount of resources allowed to be donated. What exactly are you going to add to make sure this doesn't happen again?

Quote:
That hasnt stopped the multihunters in the past and is crashing into someone on purpose to give them salvage allowed as it isnt a repeated action?
That's an entirely different rule. It falls under that thing called "farming". The galaxy fund has repeatedly been used for things like this, round 3 and round 21 being the most obvious examples which spring to mind in terms of changing the #1 planet. Precedent would indicate that doing anything which one can do with the galaxy fund is okay, although usually pateam try to fix it after the round to deal with the inevitable retard outcry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
It seems to have slipped under the radar, but as of this round oog/oot def is once again possible as long as your alliances are allied with eachother.
I do keep on forgetting this
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 17:25   #71
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I meant more in what way. We currently have a score limit, a value limit and a maximum amount of resources allowed to be donated. What exactly are you going to add to make sure this doesn't happen again?
Have a dynamic maximum amount of donation based the average galaxy score. The amount of resources donated to a planet can only give them the value up to the average galaxy score (to be competitive again after a crash or being roided) but would stop people using it in order to higher there top10/50 rankings.

Quote:
That's an entirely different rule. It falls under that thing called "farming". The galaxy fund has repeatedly been used for things like this, round 3 and round 21 being the most obvious examples which spring to mind in terms of changing the #1 planet. Precedent would indicate that doing anything which one can do with the galaxy fund is okay, although usually pateam try to fix it after the round to deal with the inevitable retard outcry.
Its not really retarded to want everyone starting out with the same resources. I dont want him closed as its too late for that, i simply want to make sure this doesnt happen again as its extremly crappy.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 17:27   #72
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Have a dynamic maximum amount of donation based the average galaxy score. The amount of resources donated to a planet can only give them the value up to the average galaxy score (to be competitive again after a crash or being roided) but would stop people using it in order to higher there top10/50 rankings.
I didn´t think this through completely, but on first sight, it looks like a rather good idea actually. Why didn´t you post it earlier?
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 17:29   #73
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Re: donation whores

unless BA wins the round i don't think there's anything to complain about.

also i think it'd be funny to see a few people do this next round.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 17:31   #74
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Its not really retarded to want everyone starting out with the same resources. I dont want him closed as its too late for that, i simply want to make sure this doesnt happen again as its extremly crappy.
Everyone did start with the same resources. That gal just decided to do something unorthodox with theirs. Seriously though, how exactly is this different from planets dedicating their round to defending/escorting someone in their gal (which is perfectly legal and would be far more "damaging to the game"). We see this all the time, usually more towards the end of a round when someone gets their friends to either ground their fleets to defend them ingal or escort them on attacks and pull at eta 1. In a very similar way both types of planets are using their resources in order to maximise the score of a different planet. And although you want to code one out we'd all have to acknowledge that coding the other out is pretty much impossible.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 19:08   #75
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Everyone did start with the same resources. That gal just decided to do something unorthodox with theirs. Seriously though, how exactly is this different from planets dedicating their round to defending/escorting someone in their gal (which is perfectly legal and would be far more "damaging to the game"). We see this all the time, usually more towards the end of a round when someone gets their friends to either ground their fleets to defend them ingal or escort them on attacks and pull at eta 1. In a very similar way both types of planets are using their resources in order to maximise the score of a different planet. And although you want to code one out we'd all have to acknowledge that coding the other out is pretty much impossible.
I just find the two completly different.

Donating to a someone inside your galaxy at startup does not require you to actually play the game nor does it require any real effort. Its not really co-ordination its simply getting someone to signup to donate to you, then they can happily quit and you can do what you like. Also donation doesnt require any real time or 'skill' either and so shouldnt be a factor, I do dislike the end week due to the way attacking/defending works but i much prefer that to someone winning via donations.

Attacking or defending at the end for a dedicated goal while isnt ideal it still requires them to of played the round and be online at the right times to defend. They cant simply donate when they're online, for it to work they have to come online and send there fleets accordingly which takes alot more effort. While i would like the #1 planet to be a planet that has got there by there own merits its impossible as either alliance, galaxy or friends come into it as the last week is highly competitive.

However, i wouldnt say they were situations where you could compare, as if you want to compare it to support planets it would be someone signing up in the last week in order to support them, which obviously is pure fail

Also by the last week, everything isnt fair.. As alliances/galaxys have already notched up a huge score lead and they will obviously use this lead to try and grab the planet rank as well. While at the start of the round, everything is meant to be reletively fair with every planet starting with the same resources. Now that galaxy could choose to flagship that planet to #1 and i wouldnt have a problem with that, as that at least requires effort, skill, time and co-ordination.. While just signing up and donating to someone doesnt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryn View Post
unless BA wins the round i don't think there's anything to complain about.
It really doesnt matter if he wins or not, as the advantage gained is not enough to win the round outright at tick 70 as alot of other factors can come into it. Its just undeniably a huge advantage that he's gained and weither he's gained it unfairly or something that PA should encourage, whereby (if we go BP gals next round) everyone who is going random is encourage to get 4 non-players to signup and donate, then exile out at the pre-arranged time with there alliance to land in a fort galaxy.

It also has a negative effect on the upgrade system, as the resource bonus gained from this dwarfs the upgrade bonus
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Last edited by Light; 22 Mar 2010 at 19:15.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 19:28   #76
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Re: donation whores

****s sake. Light and Makhil, what do you want this game to be then. A straight forward way where everyone can only do exactly the same things? This unnecessary complication and limitation is, among other things, one of the reason why people do not enjoy playing this game.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 19:36   #77
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Re: donation whores

bunch of whiney bitches. wait untill we donate someone else to the top 10!
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 19:38   #78
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
****s sake. Light and Makhil, what do you want this game to be then. A straight forward way where everyone can only do exactly the same things? This unnecessary complication and limitation is, among other things, one of the reason why people do not enjoy playing this game.
Yeah, people are quitting the game over not being able to donate there startup resources/bonuses to galaxy mates!
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 19:43   #79
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
I just find the two completly different.
I don't (considering this is what your argument amounts to on the first topic I could just stop here but I'll go on.

Quote:
Donating to a someone inside your galaxy at startup does not require you to actually play the game nor does it require any real effort. Its not really co-ordination its simply getting someone to signup to donate to you, then they can happily quit and you can do what you like. Also donation doesnt require any real time or 'skill' either and so shouldnt be a factor, I do dislike the end week due to the way attacking/defending works but i much prefer that to someone winning via donations.
Actually this did require some co-ordination as they all had to be online at the same tick in order to donate. Obviously this is less than the co-ordination/effort required to def-whore someone but then again that is less than the effort required to play a "normal" planet. You're just drawing your arbitrary line in a particular place because it's the more conventional/traditional one and it's the one you're used to having.

Quote:
Attacking or defending at the end for a dedicated goal while isnt ideal it still requires them to of played the round and be online at the right times to defend. They cant simply donate when they're online, for it to work they have to come online and send there fleets accordingly which takes alot more effort. While i would like the #1 planet to be a planet that has got there by there own merits its impossible as either alliance, galaxy or friends come into it as the last week is highly competitive.
I've played with a few people in different places who have played as virtual def whores/escort planets at various points and I don't really think "getting onto the internet around 9am gmt some days" qualifies as "a lot more effort". Particularly not with iphones etc nowadays. Any effort or skill is put in by the player "using" them.

Quote:
However, i wouldnt say they were situations where you could compare, as if you want to compare it to support planets it would be someone signing up in the last week in order to support them, which obviously is pure fail
Of course you can compare them. They're planets who sacrifice their rank for the benefit of others.

Quote:
Also by the last week, everything isnt fair.. As alliances/galaxys have already notched up a huge score lead and they will obviously use this lead to try and grab the planet rank as well. While at the start of the round, everything is meant to be reletively fair with every planet starting with the same resources. Now that galaxy could choose to flagship that planet to #1 and i wouldnt have a problem with that, as that at least requires effort, skill, time and co-ordination.. While just signing up and donating to someone doesnt.
This is just gibberish based on nothing. After pt 0 things aren't "fair"! Is it unfair that ND have more planets than anyone else? Is it unfair that Ascendancy has better players? Is it unfair that some guy logs in more often than everyone else? If people get the same opportunities and play by the same rules where on earth does unfairness come into it?


Quote:
It really doesnt matter if he wins or not, as the advantage gained is not enough to win the round outright at tick 70 as alot of other factors can come into it. Its just undeniably a huge advantage that he's gained and weither he's gained it unfairly or something that PA should encourage, whereby (if we go BP gals next round) everyone who is going random is encourage to get 4 non-players to signup and donate, then exile out at the pre-arranged time with there alliance to land in a fort galaxy.
I don't see why everyone's going to suddenly do this next round. I mean, even isil saw it last round and god knows we talked about it a lot in #asc between the rounds. Most people just didn't give a shit (although everyone encouraged it because we knew the emo-rage would be hysterical).

Quote:
It also has a negative effect on the upgrade system, as the resource bonus gained from this dwarfs the upgrade bonus
Heaven forbid
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 19:56   #80
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
It really doesnt matter if he wins or not, as the advantage gained is not enough to win the round outright at tick 70 as alot of other factors can come into it. Its just undeniably a huge advantage that he's gained and weither he's gained it unfairly or something that PA should encourage, whereby (if we go BP gals next round) everyone who is going random is encourage to get 4 non-players to signup and donate, then exile out at the pre-arranged time with there alliance to land in a fort galaxy.
if this caused him to win the round without question then yes it's totally unfair and should be discouraged. as you just said, it's not enough to cause a win. this 'huge advantage' will last how long? if it lasts all round it's cause he's a great player with a great galaxy. but.. he's probably going to be attacked by people like you who are upset at him. so... this 'huge advantage' won't really be a huge advantage in the long run.
if your own galm8 or someone in your alliance had done this would you also be crying out in 'unfairness'? because they could easily have done it as well. unfair would have been him doing something that no one else could have done.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 19:58   #81
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Re: donation whores

This is actually one of the best things to happen in PA for a long time. Seriously, this game needs something else than the standard things to happen. Or do you want to play every round over and over again doing exactly the same thing?
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 20:14   #82
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Re: donation whores

I WANT A BLOCK!

This is just some gibberish, move along. Okay, thanks.
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 20:28   #83
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Yes but you also said they 'sacrificed' there round to donate to him, so they're obviously not playing for #1 so it didnt really matter to them.
Are you saying that everyone who doesn't play for #1 is a support planet?
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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 21:15   #84
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Re: donation whores

Fine, I wanted this thread to go on a bit before I spoke my piece so here we go.

I came up with this idea a few rounds back after seeing some etd planet get a large donation (2 or 3 planets worth of res). It was a bit later in the round, maybe tick 100-150 and it seemed no-one noticed it or took offense despite him shooting into the top5 with #1 value. Anyway, he exiled around a bit and landed in a decent BP, had a good round and ended something like top30. I news scanned him several times during the round and basicly he never got inc. Obviously I was pretty pissed off with this stunt succeeding, but instead of being bitter for once, I thought to myself hey, we can take this idea, improve it and show everyone what is really possible to do within the current limits of the game.

First off I wanted to donate all the resources to a selfless scanner in our alliance who never got to play a proper planet, let's call her Anne. Originally I just wanted a bp of 3 or 4 semi-active people and we'd donate whatever we had, then exile the big planet into a more active gal before it made the value jump. The planets left would then have gone back to scanning/cov-opping/whatever that they would do anyway. No harm, no foul as they were never going to play properly anyway.

However, as I started talking to BlueArmy about it and private gals were announced, the idea evolved and we found it exciting to do something different. With good players in gal, we realised they could overcome the disadvantage at the start and play a fairly normal round afterwards. Luckily we knew (more than) enough people willing to give this a shot after we pitched the idea.

Bluearmy had the most time to put into playing PA currently and he is normally a stable player with several topxx finishes so he was an obvious choice for the one recieving the donation. However, we never once talked about winning the round or anything to that effect. The idea was to see where it took us, enjoy the whine + hate (thanks especially to isn0/light/pommeh/hut for providing the entertainment) and finally just get on with playing the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Donating to a someone inside your galaxy at startup does not require you to actually play the game nor does it require any real effort. Its not really co-ordination its simply getting someone to signup to donate to you, then they can happily quit and you can do what you like. Also donation doesnt require any real time or 'skill' either and so shouldnt be a factor, I do dislike the end week due to the way attacking/defending works but i much prefer that to someone winning via donations.
Now, hard as it may be to understand for someone who DIDN'T DO IT, it took careful planning just like any proper gal would. Without revealing all the details and thoughts we had, it was in no way as easy as you are trying to suggest, and I am sure there will be people screwing it up if they try it next round without turning their brains on. Start-up bonus was completely irrelevant, you only get that because they cut off 48 hours of protection. I didn't play last round and hadn't seen the faster start up before, let alone tried it. We would have done the exact same thing with the old start up and donated as many resources. The new startup makes it easier yes, but none of our planets have been inactive. So please stop bringing that up as an argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Just FYI, I alerted people of the possibility of this in last round's EORC!! No shocker that fools don't pay attention tho. I give that planet about 1 week before he has crashed all that value.
You got a rather large donation yourself last round, and spent most of the round bitching about how it hampered your planet. Where is that argument now? BA IS SCREWED NOW ISN'T HE!!! TBH if he crashed it, we'd donate it all back just for giggles

Obviously this tactic is not perfect, he can barely attack anyone and will lose the egde we gave him rather fast. Just like rushing CR is a tactic for getting high rankings at the start of the round, so is this. It's just the value version.

My own personal view is that donation limits need to change. I think late starters have had an unfair advantage in the past rounds too, hiding value in the fund and hitting bots 24/7. Whoever claims that is working as intended is retarded. I realise it's a nice loophole for strong gals and I could benefit from it myself since I am usually in such gals but it's just gotten out of hand. These planets do not need extra help, they are already bottomfeeding like crazy and every round we see some late sign up actually be #1 in roids. Could it get more obvious?

I do believe in fairness and I agree that this whole thing isn't fair. It was never meant to be. The whole ****ing game is never fair. It never can be. It may be a thusand things, different timezone, access to more defense, selfless players in gal, having a friend book you on alliance raids so you get 0 inc, inet access during work, no social life, people willing to come online when they see your number calling them, not when someone else is, having your brothers friend's taxi driver's son signing you up a support planet (pretty sure this was one of stuhlmans, and he claimed to know the guy really well!), and heck I could go on with this until I burst. To treat everyone the same, you need to treat everyone different. And we sure don't in pa.

I'd be entirely satisfied if the limits were changed to 20 mill max for donations, it would be extremely simple to do and extremely effective to the point where you need to rethink your life if you complain about someone getting a donation. It's simple and it works. The more complicated you make shit, the more likely it is someone will find a way around it.



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Unread 22 Mar 2010, 23:57   #85
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Re: donation whores

Sanity hath spoken!
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 00:00   #86
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I don't (considering this is what your argument amounts to on the first topic I could just stop here but I'll go on.
No as i explained why the two are different.

Quote:
Actually this did require some co-ordination as they all had to be online at the same tick in order to donate. Obviously this is less than the co-ordination/effort required to def-whore someone but then again that is less than the effort required to play a "normal" planet. You're just drawing your arbitrary line in a particular place because it's the more conventional/traditional one and it's the one you're used to having.
WoW be online at the same tick once, such co-ordination. No i draw the line at just coming online basically when you want and having to come online due to def needed at that hour.

Quote:
I've played with a few people in different places who have played as virtual def whores/escort planets at various points and I don't really think "getting onto the internet around 9am gmt some days" qualifies as "a lot more effort". Particularly not with iphones etc nowadays. Any effort or skill is put in by the player "using" them.
they cant simply come online at 9am some days if they're flagshipping someone, isnt it whenever needed?

Quote:
Of course you can compare them. They're planets who sacrifice their rank for the benefit of others.
but one is simply signing up and coming online at a pre-arranged time and the other is a rounds worth of effort.

Quote:
This is just gibberish based on nothing. After pt 0 things aren't "fair"! Is it unfair that ND have more planets than anyone else? Is it unfair that Ascendancy has better players? Is it unfair that some guy logs in more often than everyone else? If people get the same opportunities and play by the same rules where on earth does unfairness come into it?
So? just bcus things arnt completly fair at tick 0 doesnt mean things shouldnt be as far as possible, thats why we've got bash limits and alliance limits.

Quote:
I don't see why everyone's going to suddenly do this next round. I mean, even isil saw it last round and god knows we talked about it a lot in #asc between the rounds. Most people just didn't give a shit (although everyone encouraged it because we knew the emo-rage would be hysterical).
o so Asc agree'd not to do it, so all's good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryn View Post
if this caused him to win the round without question then yes it's totally unfair and should be discouraged. as you just said, it's not enough to cause a win. this 'huge advantage' will last how long? if it lasts all round it's cause he's a great player with a great galaxy. but.. he's probably going to be attacked by people like you who are upset at him. so... this 'huge advantage' won't really be a huge advantage in the long run.
if your own galm8 or someone in your alliance had done this would you also be crying out in 'unfairness'? because they could easily have done it as well. unfair would have been him doing something that no one else could have done.
Anything this early wouldnt result in someone getting the planet win.

Yes, he's a great player as he started with a 50mil resource advantage.

No, im not going to attack him, its a waste of fleets as he has too much value.

Can see your settling into Asc quiet fine. Even signed up to the Asc forum sqaud as a extra curricular activity, congrats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
This is actually one of the best things to happen in PA for a long time. Seriously, this game needs something else than the standard things to happen. Or do you want to play every round over and over again doing exactly the same thing?
Maybe next round Asc can start out with 2x the value of the nearest alliance, that will liven things up. Someone abusing the donation system is not a good thing to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
Are you saying that everyone who doesn't play for #1 is a support planet?
No, im saying they wasnt aiming high anyway considering they was willing to donate there startup bonus.

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Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
I came up with this idea a few rounds back after seeing some etd planet get a large donation (2 or 3 planets worth of res). It was a bit later in the round, maybe tick 100-150 and it seemed no-one noticed it or took offense despite him shooting into the top5 with #1 value. Anyway, he exiled around a bit and landed in a decent BP, had a good round and ended something like top30. I news scanned him several times during the round and basicly he never got inc. Obviously I was pretty pissed off with this stunt succeeding, but instead of being bitter for once, I thought to myself hey, we can take this idea, improve it and show everyone what is really possible to do within the current limits of the game.
or you could of notified the Pa Team to close the hole in donations.

Quote:
First off I wanted to donate all the resources to a selfless scanner in our alliance who never got to play a proper planet, let's call her Anne. Originally I just wanted a bp of 3 or 4 semi-active people and we'd donate whatever we had, then exile the big planet into a more active gal before it made the value jump. The planets left would then have gone back to scanning/cov-opping/whatever that they would do anyway. No harm, no foul as they were never going to play properly anyway.
but then you changed your mind, so its irrelevent.

Quote:
Bluearmy had the most time to put into playing PA currently and he is normally a stable player with several topxx finishes so he was an obvious choice for the one recieving the donation. However, we never once talked about winning the round or anything to that effect. The idea was to see where it took us, enjoy the whine + hate (thanks especially to isn0/light/pommeh/hut for providing the entertainment) and finally just get on with playing the game.
So you donated to him but never once considering he might win the round due to it? lol.

Quote:
Now, hard as it may be to understand for someone who DIDN'T DO IT, it took careful planning just like any proper gal would. Without revealing all the details and thoughts we had, it was in no way as easy as you are trying to suggest, and I am sure there will be people screwing it up if they try it next round without turning their brains on. Start-up bonus was completely irrelevant, you only get that because they cut off 48 hours of protection. I didn't play last round and hadn't seen the faster start up before, let alone tried it. We would have done the exact same thing with the old start up and donated as many resources. The new startup makes it easier yes, but none of our planets have been inactive. So please stop bringing that up as an argument.
7 other planets willing to come online at X tick to donate there startup bonus? Did i miss something thats 'hard'?

Quote:
Obviously this tactic is not perfect, he can barely attack anyone and will lose the egde we gave him rather fast. Just like rushing CR is a tactic for getting high rankings at the start of the round, so is this. It's just the value version.
If someone rushes CR, there is a counter to it and his main scoregain will be XP not value. Whats the counter to a Terran 2x your value?

Quote:
My own personal view is that donation limits need to change. I think late starters have had an unfair advantage in the past rounds too, hiding value in the fund and hitting bots 24/7. Whoever claims that is working as intended is retarded. I realise it's a nice loophole for strong gals and I could benefit from it myself since I am usually in such gals but it's just gotten out of hand. These planets do not need extra help, they are already bottomfeeding like crazy and every round we see some late sign up actually be #1 in roids. Could it get more obvious?
Cant argue with that as its exactly true.

Quote:
I do believe in fairness and I agree that this whole thing isn't fair.
Thank you

Quote:
It was never meant to be. The whole ****ing game is never fair. It never can be. It may be a thusand things, different timezone, access to more defense, selfless players in gal, having a friend book you on alliance raids so you get 0 inc, inet access during work, no social life, people willing to come online when they see your number calling them, not when someone else is, having your brothers friend's taxi driver's son signing you up a support planet (pretty sure this was one of stuhlmans, and he claimed to know the guy really well!), and heck I could go on with this until I burst. To treat everyone the same, you need to treat everyone different. And we sure don't in pa.
Doesnt mean the game shouldnt be as fair as possible and someone starting with 20-50mil extra resources is in no way fair.

Quote:
I'd be entirely satisfied if the limits were changed to 20 mill max for donations, it would be extremely simple to do and extremely effective to the point where you need to rethink your life if you complain about someone getting a donation. It's simple and it works. The more complicated you make shit, the more likely it is someone will find a way around it.
or simply you cant donate someone above the galaxy average score + the 20mil max.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 00:24   #87
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
No as i explained why the two are different.
I think you've failed to understand the difference between a logical explanation and a heap of emotive verbal vomit.

Quote:
WoW be online at the same tick once, such co-ordination. No i draw the line at just coming online basically when you want and having to come online due to def needed at that hour.
Ignoring the fact that you always have more than 1 hour (usually 3-5 depending on type of inc) for defwhoring ingal escort planets don't even require that level of activity. All you have to do in that case is logon once a day.

Quote:
they cant simply come online at 9am some days if they're flagshipping someone, isnt it whenever needed?
As I'm sure you well know 9am gmt is the primetime ingal def needed point. Obviously this expands out somewhat, meaning there are actually more hours you can come online in order to be useful, countering your argument again. Nonetheless my point here was that regardless of how much activity you need to put in to defwhore/escort, which is even less than you seem to think is needed (and I do use the word "think" lightly), it's not difficult at all for the defwhorer or escorter to get online once a day.

Equally in this case you have to look at the levels. I severely doubt that defwhoring and escorting someone for an entire round would result in them having "only" 500k more score than they would have had otherwise. This was a one-time shot, that realistically can't be repeated. I've seen people get escorted for more than 500k xp score in the last week of a round. If you get more from it it'd make sense that it's harder.

"Whenever needed" is an absurd distinction as well. If I defwhored someone for the entire round except for one tick around pt 650 where a wave I could have covered got through I'm pretty sure there's still some level of "unfair advantage" in play.

Quote:
but one is simply signing up and coming online at a pre-arranged time and the other is a rounds worth of effort.
To go back over my points as simply and straight-forwardly as possible.

1) It's not actually that hard at all because getting online, even at any required time, isn't exactly difficult.
2) Even some effort, ie even if you miss some defcalls or escort missions, is going to be extremely beneficial

As I said earlier, you've drawn a completely arbitrary line based on your own personal feelings. And for the love of god try replying to what I actually say next time, it is incredibly boring for me to have to restate my position each time simply in order to point out that you're not really responding to what I said at all before then managing to actually get to say something new.



Quote:
So? just bcus things arnt completly fair at tick 0 doesnt mean things shouldnt be as far as possible, thats why we've got bash limits and alliance limits.
You can't start talking about "fair" and how it's different in the first week as in the last week it's not fair and then move back and say well it's not completely fair but let's make it more fair. Why not make it more fair in the last week? What the **** does more fair even mean in this context? What is fairness in the context of a game bar obeying the rules?

Talk about intentions is so completely irrelevant as to be worth only slightly more than hot air. The intentions of this game never involved alliances for god's sake. Thankfully at that stage everyone still had a firm enough grip on their sanity that we managed to avoid banning them when they arose.

Quote:
o so Asc agree'd not to do it, so all's good.
No, you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
everyone who is going random is encourage[d] to get 4 non-players to signup and donate, then exile out at the pre-arranged time with there alliance to land in a fort galaxy.
I responded to this by saying that even though we all knew this was possible this round only 1 gal actually bothered to do it.


PS Just to clarify (it'll save me time in my next post I imagine) I do support changing the donation rules. I'd prefer golan's solution to light's though. Simplicity is always good and inevitably the more complicated you make your formulae for deciding things like this the more frequently loopholes crop up in later rounds.


PPS Also finding it hilarious how you wrote off someone who was an alliances/AD mod for a number of years, when this game actually had more than 8 players, as just another member of the ascendancy troll squad
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 02:00   #88
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Re: donation whores

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
All in all I'm most surprised by the fact the ministry didn't manage to **** this up.
I tried my best
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 03:58   #89
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Re: donation whores

hehe.

I planned to do the same a bit differently this round. My plan was to get a couple players to join alliance tag, donate what they could, and then trade resources back and forth leaving some back each time doing so. Then just do this till they had traded all their resources into the fund. At this point I would kick them from tag and donate it to myself ( as much as possible, and then keep adding people to tag to donate as they joined. )
Needless to say I was too inactive preround, and didnt bother to actually do it. Also, I was told it most likely would be against the rules.... ( who gives a **** anyway though, eh?! )

In the end though, I "approve of teamplay" in all fashions. Farming, salvage donations, resources donations and escorting. Its beyond me why some are allowed while some are not allowed however!

I would like to see the real difference between someone crashing their fleet on a planet to give them ships / resources, over donating it instead of prodding the ships first.
What if a private galaxy went all 4 races, with 1 zik, where they made sure the zik defended vs them to "give" him the best possible shipcombo?

ey, its teamwork after all and the others in the gal will now be playing at a disadvantage. Just like they will in this case.

Thumbs up for actually bothering doing it guys, I just smile and chuckle a bit at the asc pr squad always loving what they do themselves, while if someone else had done this it would have been awfull, and ruining the game!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Newt
I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 04:12   #90
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Thumbs up for actually bothering doing it guys, I just smile and chuckle a bit at the asc pr squad always loving what they do themselves, while if someone else had done this it would have been awfull, and ruining the game!
Like that time in Round 21 where everyone in Ascendancy said that what greenhills did was awful and ruined the game!
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 09:13   #91
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Re: donation whores

This, 3 years later, is still true too!
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 11:52   #92
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
It is not cheating, it is a strategy. He gives away his, and his gals ability, to attack, in exchange for building a terran fortress, that cannot be attacked without huge teamups, for a long while. Per definition you are jealous, because you are not capable to pull off a stunt like this yourself.
By definition I wouldn't have cheated that way if I was asked too because it goes against the spirit of the game as I imagine it. It can be both strategy and cheating btw...
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 12:45   #93
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Re: donation whores

Cheating is the wrong word as it implys he broke the rules which he didnt but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be fixed for next round
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 13:53   #94
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Re: donation whores

In fairness, the only arguments given against this strategy so far can be summarised as "I don't like it". From a game design point of view, that is absolutely meaningless.

See, I would have respected it if you'd said something like this:

Well, I think cooperation in the game should be limited to those forms that are profitable to both parties. In that light defence makes sense, because if you defend someone there's a good chance he'll repay the favour when you need it. On the other hand, players dedicating their entire existence to the escorting of another player does not, since the escorter gets nothing out of it; by definition, it involves the placing of the escortee in a position of higher importance than the escorters. Similarly, donating some funds to a smaller player makes sense, because it boosts his value, increases his odds of gaining roids, which places him in a better position to help you later on in the round, which he's also more likely to do, because you helped him. On the other hand, sacrificing 7 planets right after protection to give 1 planet a massive value lead does not (for reasons I detailed earlier in this thread).

Incidentially, my objection to the above reasoning is that while it's entirely legit, its not very practical. It's the same as JBG's argument, namely that you end up drawing arbitrary lines between the two extremes. This results in a horribly static game, in which everyone does the same thing every round, in which luck and activity (not skill) are the only determining factors in who does well and who does not. Why? Because when you limit cooperation to mutually profitable cooperation, then only the most profitable form of cooperation makes sense (or, more likely, whatever PA Team believes is the most profitable form of cooperation); doing anything less would be like robbing both yourself and the other party. By definition, there is only one most profitable form of cooperation, at which point we arrive at the inevitable conclusion that in every situation, there is only one appropriate (and indeed, legal, or even possible) response. Welcome to Simtarion (or as I like to call it, Nineteen-eightyfourion).

My point of view is that every form of cooperation between people should be allowed, because it opens the game to a vast variety of strategies, which encourages intelligent play. Farming, multiing, support tags; these are, in my opinion, all perfectly legitimate strategies that would not harm the game any more than their currently legal variants do (escorting, out of tag scanning, ingal defence whoring). They would be especially interesting because they give people a very strong incentive to recruit new players and cooperate with them (ie, "hey, sign up and be my farm").

I'd make two exceptions. One is a total ban on botting and the second is that I'd want an upper limit on the number of planets you're allowed to have. If people can start an alliance (or even galaxy) for only their own planets, they feel neither an incentive to recruit nor even to cooperate. (Even better, I'd introduce an ingame feature that allows players to expand to other planets, incorporating a self-limiting mechanism.)

Speaking from personal experience, the most fun I've had in PA was in those rounds I did something I'd never done before: XP in r16, cov opping in r22, disting in r24, value play in r28, fortressing in r30. I don't know, maybe lots of people prefer doing the same thing over and over again.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 15:47   #95
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
In fairness, the only arguments given against this strategy so far can be summarised as "I don't like it". From a game design point of view, that is absolutely meaningless.

See, I would have respected it if you'd said something like this:

Well, I think cooperation in the game should be limited to those forms that are profitable to both parties. In that light defence makes sense, because if you defend someone there's a good chance he'll repay the favour when you need it. On the other hand, players dedicating their entire existence to the escorting of another player does not, since the escorter gets nothing out of it; by definition, it involves the placing of the escortee in a position of higher importance than the escorters. Similarly, donating some funds to a smaller player makes sense, because it boosts his value, increases his odds of gaining roids, which places him in a better position to help you later on in the round, which he's also more likely to do, because you helped him. On the other hand, sacrificing 7 planets right after protection to give 1 planet a massive value lead does not (for reasons I detailed earlier in this thread).

Incidentially, my objection to the above reasoning is that while it's entirely legit, its not very practical. It's the same as JBG's argument, namely that you end up drawing arbitrary lines between the two extremes. This results in a horribly static game, in which everyone does the same thing every round, in which luck and activity (not skill) are the only determining factors in who does well and who does not. Why? Because when you limit cooperation to mutually profitable cooperation, then only the most profitable form of cooperation makes sense (or, more likely, whatever PA Team believes is the most profitable form of cooperation); doing anything less would be like robbing both yourself and the other party. By definition, there is only one most profitable form of cooperation, at which point we arrive at the inevitable conclusion that in every situation, there is only one appropriate (and indeed, legal, or even possible) response. Welcome to Simtarion (or as I like to call it, Nineteen-eightyfourion).

My point of view is that every form of cooperation between people should be allowed, because it opens the game to a vast variety of strategies, which encourages intelligent play. Farming, multiing, support tags; these are, in my opinion, all perfectly legitimate strategies that would not harm the game any more than their currently legal variants do (escorting, out of tag scanning, ingal defence whoring). They would be especially interesting because they give people a very strong incentive to recruit new players and cooperate with them (ie, "hey, sign up and be my farm").

I'd make two exceptions. One is a total ban on botting and the second is that I'd want an upper limit on the number of planets you're allowed to have. If people can start an alliance (or even galaxy) for only their own planets, they feel neither an incentive to recruit nor even to cooperate. (Even better, I'd introduce an ingame feature that allows players to expand to other planets, incorporating a self-limiting mechanism.)

Speaking from personal experience, the most fun I've had in PA was in those rounds I did something I'd never done before: XP in r16, cov opping in r22, disting in r24, value play in r28, fortressing in r30. I don't know, maybe lots of people prefer doing the same thing over and over again.
Ive given many arguments against it or should i do the same as you...

The only arguments for this strategy is "i like it". From a game design point of view, that is absolutely meaningless (just bcus someone says i think or this is my point of view, does not mean they're simply saying "i dont like it").

1. It gives an unfair advantage to a planet via donations so that they become double the size of the #2 planet. If were going to allow that, then we need stats with huge holes in them to compensate.
2. Its unfair to those planets which didnt have donation whores who are now top as they are easy pickings for the donation whore.
3. Its not an arbitrary line when choosing between weither donations or escorts are allowed. One requires you to find 4-7 random people who have no intention of playing the game to signup and then donate to you (then quit, nothing else, no more effort), while escorting requires you to play the round.
4. some forms of co-operation should be encourage but signing up just to donate should be discouraged.
5. If you want more strategy in PA then come up with idea's for it other than allowing some planets to start with double/triple the value of everyone else.
6. If you do want people being able to choose short term high value gain, then do it via goverments.. giving them a nice one-off payment of resources and balancing it with slow res, slow con or lower income bonus but donation whoring is not the way to achieve that.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 16:11   #96
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Re: donation whores

I've pruned this thread. Please try and be civil, or I'll take a blunter knife to it.
This is the first and last warning for anyone on this thread - any more name calling or hair pulling will be followed by a forum ban.

This is an issue which many players feel deserves discussion and, hopefully, some good can come out of the thread. If you can't be constructive and add to the discussion, then please don't post.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 16:21   #97
Mzyxptlk
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
1. It gives an unfair advantage to a planet via donations so that they become double the size of the #2 planet. If were going to allow that, then we need stats with huge holes in them to compensate.
2. Its unfair to those planets which didnt have donation whores who are now top as they are easy pickings for the donation whore.
It's only unfair if it's against the rules. It's a worse than meaningless word in any other circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
3. Its not an arbitrary line when choosing between weither donations or escorts are allowed. One requires you to find 4-7 random people who have no intention of playing the game to signup and then donate to you (then quit, nothing else, no more effort), while escorting requires you to play the round.
Yes, it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
4. some forms of co-operation should be encourage but signing up just to donate should be discouraged.
See what I mean by 'arbitrary'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
5. If you want more strategy in PA then come up with idea's for it other than allowing some planets to start with double/triple the value of everyone else.
First off all, this is a logical fallacy. I don't have to do the stuff I advocate in order for my points to be valid. Secondly, you picked just about the worst person to pull it on. I did XP in r16 in ROCK. I was personally involved with the no roid cov op strategy in r22. I was in the mass-dist galaxy in r24 (the round before Ascendancy as an alliance tried it). I have probably introduced or participated in more revolutionary strategies than anyone in the last 20 rounds. So, er, **** off.

The funny thing is, whenever someone introduces a new strategy, it invariably gets destroyed the round after. XP? Ruined after r16. Dists? Ruined after r25. Cov ops? Ruined after r22. Donations? Probably ruined after this round. And invariably, it's not people like me that ruin them. It's people like you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
6. If you do want people being able to choose short term high value gain, then do it via goverments.. giving them a nice one-off payment of resources and balancing it with slow res, slow con or lower income bonus but donation whoring is not the way to achieve that.
Do X or Y but not Z! But thank God you're not being arbitrary.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 16:22   #98
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Re: donation whores

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
The only arguments for this strategy is "i like it". From a game design point of view, that is absolutely meaningless (just bcus someone says i think or this is my point of view, does not mean they're simply saying "i dont like it").
This just isn't true.

Quote:
1. It gives an unfair advantage to a planet via donations so that they become double the size of the #2 planet. If were going to allow that, then we need stats with huge holes in them to compensate.
You haven't, at any point, given an even vaguely objective definition of "unfair". So yes, your argument does boil down to "I don't like this".
Quote:
2. Its unfair to those planets which didnt have donation whores who are now top as they are easy pickings for the donation whore.
This is an insane use of the word unfair. Purely in the context in which you use it you could replace "didn't have donation whores" with didn't get alliance def or anything else. Note that I'm not saying that they're exactly the same thing here, I'm just saying the actual argument is completely meaningless.
Quote:
3. Its not an arbitrary line when choosing between weither donations or escorts are allowed. One requires you to find 4-7 random people who have no intention of playing the game to signup and then donate to you (then quit, nothing else, no more effort), while escorting requires you to play the round.
That is an arbitrary line. You drew your line between 1 action and <many actions>. However, in reality, it doesn't break down that simply. An entire alliance of support planets that defended/escorted someone only once before letting him then move on to another tag wouldn't break your line for example. I'm pretty sure that'd still be advantageous though.
Quote:
4. some forms of co-operation should be encourage but signing up just to donate should be discouraged.
This isn't an argument. It's a statement.
Quote:
5. If you want more strategy in PA then come up with idea's for it other than allowing some planets to start with double/triple the value of everyone else.
This isn't an argument either. It's an emotive appeal.
Quote:
6. If you do want people being able to choose short term high value gain, then do it via goverments.. giving them a nice one-off payment of resources and balancing it with slow res, slow con or lower income bonus but donation whoring is not the way to achieve that.
This is almost an argument but you still don't provide any reasons for why you shouldn't be able to achieve high value through donation whoring.




Edit: Seriously light, it's not a coincidence that mz and my response's are almost exactly the same. At this point I'd advise just going out and looking up what most of the words you're using actually mean, and then try to apply them to pa and figure out how they fit in.
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 16:25   #99
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Re: donation whores

The way i see it, BA and his gal did us all a favor.
If he wins the round it's not going to be bc of this one time donation, which is more likely to limit his ability to hit easy targets.

If you think this is somehow unfair, do something: register #KillBACheatingScum and invite all people who surely must feel as outrageously cheated as you do. Let the guns do the talking :P
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Unread 23 Mar 2010, 16:32   #100
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Re: donation whores

I think the worst thing about this thread is knowing that light is just going to reply with exactly the same arguments in a slightly modified fashion and there's nothing I can do to help her. It makes me sad
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