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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 10:52   #51
Kaiba
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
I'm sure they have proof...

And this has nothing to do with what you speak of. So don't bring it into this thread either.

Fencing gals results from others having played together previously and joining certain alliances just to avoid incs. I fail to see how this is down to HC's "poor politics" as you put it. Certain Bps specifically join different alliances for this sole purpose.

And yes, every time a fort is targeted in modern PA it turns into war, so no it is not politics again. Near enough everyone has fort avoidances in place to benefit themselves and to the detriment of random galaxies.

You say political allegiances aren't affected by forts which is completely false. If you are in galaxies with other alliances you would have to pick and choose your naps wisely based around certain mitigating factors...e.g. number of planets of certain alliances in galaxies with your planets, the strategy of said alliances. It has everything to do with it.

Yes, I agree that certain alliances prefer working together - but have you noticed its the same alliances working together near enough each round. Why is this?

The point is not how to play forts Kaiba, but that you have to play forts to have any chance of success - which is a limiting factor that lends itself to the boredom of each round.

If you don't get that then I would like your Doc to provide me with a prescription of what you're smoking!
You are mixing up fences and forts, please redo your post and correct the errors, they are not the same thing
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 10:53   #52
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Re: R66 ship stats

No, I am not. Fencing = number of different alliance HCs/officers/people with influence and playing for gal win

Last edited by Krypton; 1 Mar 2016 at 10:59.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 11:01   #53
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
You are mixing up fences and forts, please redo your post and correct the errors, they are not the same thing
So if you have a fort agreement you have only 4 kinds of ships, and not 4-5 players from the same alliance?

So it should be called a fence agreement?
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 12:07   #54
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
So if you have a fort agreement you have only 4 kinds of ships, and not 4-5 players from the same alliance?

So it should be called a fence agreement?
No see this where you are all wrong.

A fence is a galaxy that has set itself up to avoid as much incoming as possible by having members from different alliances and players of influence that avoid it being a target. For example if Faceless didn't hit galaxies with 2+ FL members in it then having 2 FL members in it would mean you get no incs from FL. Having BCs and DCs from various high ranked alliances will avoid you incs too as HCs invariably don't want to piss off the ones that graft for them. So basically they are sitting on the fence and avoiding incs and out for themselves. If your alliance is making deals with these galaxies then you need to look at your politics TBH.

Forts are galaxies made up of 4+ players of the same alliance, they create an active and concentrated defpool with lower eta to cover more incs with less fleets (shorter return time/more time to get defence). These galaxies in war time if played properly take incs away from random members and soak up a lot more attack fleets than a basic raid due to the nature of the defence. They are invariably complete team players as you need to be to do well in these types of galaxy.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 12:12   #55
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Re: R66 ship stats

If that is your definition kaiba then how did Krypton mix up fences and forts? Yours and his seem to match reasonably well.

That aside you seem to be moving the discussion off track. Fences are entirely political and not something stats can solve. You are correct that forts are partially political but they are something stats can encourage or discourage. In this case the stats are encouraging their creation.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 12:16   #56
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Re: R66 ship stats

Fort: many people from the same alliance in the same galaxy. Advantages: no conflicts of interest, good cooperation between ingal def and ally def, can all be peons. Disadvantages: incs are not spread evenly even outside of war, increased likelihood of accidental war, shared weaknesses in ally def and gal def ships.

Fence: people from many different alliances in the same galaxy. Advantages: hard to target well, larger def pool due to disjointness of gal and ally def, can influence alliance politics for the galaxy's benefit. Disadvantages: alliance wars can break the galaxy, players may be banned from defending each other ingal, prioritizing your galaxy over your alliance(s) is generally frowned upon (by your alliance(s)), need to be able to influence or even control your alliances.

With both strategies, deciding upon a common fleet strategy. If a fleet strategy is good for fencing, it's good for forting.

The people who are focusing solely on one or the other are making a mistake. It's not fences vs. forts, or either vs. 'normal' galaxies. It's galaxies vs. alliances.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 12:17   #57
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
No see this where you are all wrong.

A fence is a galaxy that has set itself up to avoid as much incoming as possible by having members from different alliances and players of influence that avoid it being a target. For example if Faceless didn't hit galaxies with 2+ FL members in it then having 2 FL members in it would mean you get no incs from FL. Having BCs and DCs from various high ranked alliances will avoid you incs too as HCs invariably don't want to piss off the ones that graft for them. So basically they are sitting on the fence and avoiding incs and out for themselves. If your alliance is making deals with these galaxies then you need to look at your politics TBH.

Forts are galaxies made up of 4+ players of the same alliance, they create an active and concentrated defpool with lower eta to cover more incs with less fleets (shorter return time/more time to get defence). These galaxies in war time if played properly take incs away from random members and soak up a lot more attack fleets than a basic raid due to the nature of the defence. They are invariably complete team players as you need to be to do well in these types of galaxy.
Exactly.
You didn't get the irony part, sorry about that. These stats promotes forting. Aka 4+ players of same alliance in same bp, since you have so much downwards firing.

I know perfectly well how to fence, I did it all the time back in the day. But you said Krypton had it wrong. And now you are saying the same thing as him
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 12:21   #58
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Fort: many people from the same alliance in the same galaxy. Advantages: no conflicts of interest, good cooperation between ingal def and ally def, can all be peons. Disadvantages: incs are not spread evenly even outside of war, increased likelihood of accidental war, shared weaknesses in ally def and gal def ships.

Fence: people from many different alliances in the same galaxy. Advantages: hard to target well, larger def pool due to disjointness of gal and ally def, can influence alliance politics for the galaxy's benefit. Disadvantages: alliance wars can break the galaxy, players may be banned from defending each other ingal, prioritizing your galaxy over your alliance(s) is generally frowned upon (by your alliance(s)), need to be able to influence or even control your alliances.

With both strategies, deciding upon a common fleet strategy. If a fleet strategy is good for fencing, it's good for forting.

The people who are focusing solely on one or the other are making a mistake. It's not fences vs. forts, or either vs. 'normal' galaxies. It's galaxies vs. alliances.
100% agree with everything you posted. A good fence gal is just as efficent as a good fort, as long as politics allows it.

However when you can't rund an alliance properly, without either forting or fencing, because you don't have any ally def ships for most of the classes it removes the option of going random.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 12:27   #59
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
Exactly.
You didn't get the irony part, sorry about that. These stats promotes forting. Aka 4+ players of same alliance in same bp, since you have so much downwards firing.

I know perfectly well how to fence, I did it all the time back in the day. But you said Krypton had it wrong. And now you are saying the same thing as him
The discussion/complaint is that FORTS are the issue, Krypton was going on about FENCES which are a completely different animal. They both operate differently and have different goals when created.

Mz is kind of right rho, this boils down to galaxies vs alliances. Certain HCs allow attacks against 4 of its members to be a call to war for the whole 60. This is bad politics as it drags your alliance down because 4 guys decided to play together. Alliances need to be less pissy over raids then maybe the politics would be more fluid and less to kill the round for their members so early on. I'm all up for big wars but the excuses you guys use to start them nowadays is ridiculous.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 12:37   #60
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The discussion/complaint is that FORTS are the issue, Krypton was going on about FENCES which are a completely different animal. They both operate differently and have different goals when created.

Mz is kind of right rho, this boils down to galaxies vs alliances. Certain HCs allow attacks against 4 of its members to be a call to war for the whole 60. This is bad politics as it drags your alliance down because 4 guys decided to play together. Alliances need to be less pissy over raids then maybe the politics would be more fluid and less to kill the round for their members so early on. I'm all up for big wars but the excuses you guys use to start them nowadays is ridiculous.
Anyway how you put it, these stats is not possible to play in any other way then xp or forts. Random is not an option if you want to go for value, there is no way for an alliance to cover inc without fort or def planets. Which is what I try to point out.

I don't think forts will disappare with other stats, but this makes it impossible to even try. CO works to a certain degree, but you would need def planets to cover the holes.

Forting is extremley much better then not to fort if you want any kind of def with this stats. I've posted an explanation why earlier, but nobody have tried to debate it.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 13:38   #61
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
Anyway how you put it, these stats is not possible to play in any other way then xp or forts. Random is not an option if you want to go for value, there is no way for an alliance to cover inc without fort or def planets. Which is what I try to point out.

I don't think forts will disappare with other stats, but this makes it impossible to even try. CO works to a certain degree, but you would need def planets to cover the holes.

Forting is extremley much better then not to fort if you want any kind of def with this stats. I've posted an explanation why earlier, but nobody have tried to debate it.
No one is debating these stats make forts more playable but again not everyone can play forts.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 13:57   #62
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Re: R66 ship stats

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No one is debating these stats make forts more playable but again not everyone can play forts.
Yea, and then you are only left with xp. Which i personally think is retarded.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 14:12   #63
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The discussion/complaint is that FORTS are the issue, Krypton was going on about FENCES which are a completely different animal. They both operate differently and have different goals when created.

Mz is kind of right rho, this boils down to galaxies vs alliances. Certain HCs allow attacks against 4 of its members to be a call to war for the whole 60. This is bad politics as it drags your alliance down because 4 guys decided to play together. Alliances need to be less pissy over raids then maybe the politics would be more fluid and less to kill the round for their members so early on. I'm all up for big wars but the excuses you guys use to start them nowadays is ridiculous.
Fml, fences was in relation to bps - not the stats. I just copy and pasted it from another thread. And then you made a point on it so I responded. Simple.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 14:47   #64
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Yea, and then you are only left with xp. Which i personally think is retarded.
What magical play style do you want then?
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 15:33   #65
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
What magical play style do you want then?
Magical? Like it's been the 5 rounds since I returned. Possibility to play value in an alliance without forting. We've done that in norse since the first round without problems. Now it's not possible. What on earth do you think the dicussion is about?

It's not that hard. Make ships targeting upwards instead of downwards. I fully support one ship firing downwards and every strategy have some holes. But as it is now it's not possible to play value as an alliance if you don't fort (or defplanets).

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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 19:34   #66
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
Magical? Like it's been the 5 rounds since I returned. Possibility to play value in an alliance without forting. We've done that in norse since the first round without problems. Now it's not possible. What on earth do you think the dicussion is about?

It's not that hard. Make ships targeting upwards instead of downwards. I fully support one ship firing downwards and every strategy have some holes. But as it is now it's not possible to play value as an alliance if you don't fort (or defplanets).
Actually this is not right. You will be fine as a random as long as you are dedicated enough to look after your own planet.

Being in a fort does not automatically mean you will be safe, if anything it means if your fort is sub standard your fort will be annihilated when the wars start. I will happily wager that top planet and top are not forts.

Forts is reliability, nothing more, if your fort is unreliable it will get raided regardless of ship stats.

What are you meaning to say all along is these stats favour GALAXY DEFENCE. Which they do, but with the shuffle your galaxy is still very much a lottery so it's a non issue
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 19:48   #67
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Actually this is not right. You will be fine as a random as long as you are dedicated enough to look after your own planet.

Being in a fort does not automatically mean you will be safe, if anything it means if your fort is sub standard your fort will be annihilated when the wars start. I will happily wager that top planet and top are not forts.

Forts is reliability, nothing more, if your fort is unreliable it will get raided regardless of ship stats.

What are you meaning to say all along is these stats favour GALAXY DEFENCE. Which they do, but with the shuffle your galaxy is still very much a lottery so it's a non issue
You got to be an idiot tbh. Ppl said you were a troll and i guess they were right.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 19:54   #68
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Re: R66 ship stats

Kaiba, yes we know that no matter the stats set some people will be able to prosper even if going against the grain; the very active and dedicated. But the game should not be just about those who fanatically check their planet to enable themselves to get pl defence from their alliance. We need to think about those who are less dedicated, or unable to do such checking as well.

Think about the whole game not individual cases please.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 22:05   #69
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Re: R66 ship stats

Kaiba has moved from teenage fan to part of elite!
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 22:08   #70
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Re: R66 ship stats

You folks say this set is only playable with galaxy def, so i ask you what does alliance def suffer in covering? Obviously you all are talking about fr/de forts and maybe CR forts but what can a Fort cover that a random planet cant cover with alliance defense? (Getting back on topic) Calcs show more and can affect more change than just random opinionated bable.
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Unread 2 Mar 2016, 03:39   #71
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Re: R66 ship stats

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I would be asking for diffrent stats offers. But knowing how few time appoco has i am confident patc has appocos word allready. I can only hope patc has another set rdy, cause this one cant be fixed with a few tweaks but only a General targeting overhaul.
I have multiple unused sets that have been passed over for many rounds now.
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Unread 2 Mar 2016, 12:01   #72
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Re: R66 ship stats

Santa's set from two rounds ago would be fine too.
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Unread 3 Mar 2016, 16:13   #73
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Santa's set from two rounds ago would be fine too.
I liked that set it was different. PapaDoc's are also better than Patrick's in terms of viability and versatility.
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Unread 3 Mar 2016, 16:35   #74
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Re: R66 ship stats

^^ Seconded if his are indeed the ones on Xmas PA. They are far better, more versatile and in keeping with the general direction people want to go. You certainly don't need to fort to have success with them stats, but there are forting options for Kaiba and co to get moist over, before saying that only non ult forts fail
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Unread 3 Mar 2016, 21:45   #75
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Re: R66 ship stats

Utterly boring set of stats.

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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 04:43   #76
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Re: R66 ship stats

Honestly if we have two semi viable stats. Semi being used loosely and the game is about its members... couldn't we have an ingame poll or something of the sorts to see what the community actually wants?

I ask this as I have heard from multiple allies that with Patrick's set they will only play a semi active role more trolling than anything else. I would think this would be a detriment to the game.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 06:53   #77
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Re: R66 ship stats

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... couldn't we have an ingame poll or something of the sorts to see what the community actually wants?
i think this is a good idea, put an ingame poll with signups starting and have it run until 2 days before ticks start.
Then we get an idea what the majority wants to play with and the ones diagreeing at least know it was public will.

Alliances will still have enough time to pick their strategy - as was prooven in the past when stats have been made final just before ticks started also.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 06:56   #78
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Re: R66 ship stats

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i think this is a good idea, put an ingame poll with signups starting and have it run until 2 days before ticks start.
Then we get an idea what the majority wants to play with and the ones diagreeing at least know it was public will.

Alliances will still have enough time to pick their strategy - as was prooven in the past when stats have been made final just before ticks started also.
This only falls down on the fact that 90% of players can't read stats so would be voting based on their HC/Officers opinion or a random and uninformed guess.

Leave stats decision to those in the know, or PA team
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 07:37   #79
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Re: R66 ship stats

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This only falls down on the fact that 90% of players can't read stats so would be voting based on their HC/Officers opinion or a random and uninformed guess.

Leave stats decision to those in the know, or PA team
Or they would be voting on what they'd personally like to play. So what's bad about that?
The ones knowing stats do their job with presenting 2 playable sets.

So what bad can happen with having people vote between 2 playable sets ?
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 09:04   #80
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
This only falls down on the fact that 90% of players can't read stats so would be voting based on their HC/Officers opinion or a random and uninformed guess.

Leave stats decision to those in the know, or PA team
Then why bother even posting stats out to the public for discussion.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 09:40   #81
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
This only falls down on the fact that 90% of players can't read stats so would be voting based on their HC/Officers opinion or a random and uninformed guess.

Leave stats decision to those in the know, or PA team
Most people can and the ones that cant have no inclination to vote.

There's a reason why people want a vote because the majority don't want patrikc's fort extraordinaire stats. They want versatility. That signifies they can read stats just fine.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 10:43   #82
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Re: R66 ship stats

Democracy is not a good way to pick a set of stats. A bad reason for picking a set of stats ("I really like the name 'Pegasus'!") would carry just as much weight as a good reason for picking one ("These stats are balanced and have a variety of interesting interactions that are likely to make for a fun round").

A better prototype would be the (European) court system, where people in favour of various sets of stats set forth their arguments, and a relatively neutral third party decides which set of arguments is best. That third party is PA Team. Everyone else can provide arguments and evidence, and their relative strengths will determine which set 'wins'.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 11:16   #83
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
This only falls down on the fact that 90% of players can't read stats so would be voting based on their HC/Officers opinion or a random and uninformed guess.
Supposing you are right then how does is matter?
If alliances are deciding that they won't play actively but instead intend to xp, idle, troll, fc or whatever then these people voting as directed by their hcs would be an accurate reflection of what the usage of the stats would be even if not perhaps everyone's opinion.

Essentially even if we assume you are correct about players abilities to read stats that does not mean that a poll won't be an accurate reflection of opinions or of what alliances believe.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 11:36   #84
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 12:42   #85
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Re: R66 ship stats

Nice to see all the repliers didn't bother reading m0s post.

Having a poll in-game means that EVERYONE can vote, every person that has no clue how to read stats has the same say as someone who is well versed in reading them. This is great for simple questions but in regards to something that requires actual ability it's a disaster waiting to happen.


Mr noob makes a planet and is instantly asked to vote on two sets of numbers he has no idea about. His opinion carries as much weight as Patrikc the stat veteran in this system, yeah sounds great.

Also what is the betting that if a fort set was against a xp set that certain alliances would team up to make sure the vote was in their favour.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 13:01   #86
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Re: R66 ship stats

Really kaiba, what percentage of players signing up before tick start are actually new to the game? Almost everyone will have played before and have some familiarity with stats. The majority will likely discuss the poll with their alliance mates.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 13:11   #87
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
Really kaiba, what percentage of players signing up before tick start are actually new to the game? Almost everyone will have played before and have some familiarity with stats. The majority will likely discuss the poll with their alliance mates.
Well actually 'new players' seems to be a favourite of yours when debating stuff.

Your belief that that almost everyone will have a fimilatlrity with stats to the point of being able to pick one set over another is ridiculous. There are ppl out there who play Xan cos they like the colour green for god's sake. Why don't we throw open every little decision to the moronic masses and end up with an entirely unplayable game.

If the majority are going to do what their alliance says then why bother having a player vote, have an alliance vote, or as most are in pre formed blocks have a block vote.

How about this for a crazy idea, let the PA team pick as it has done for the last 65 rounds, the game hasn't imploded from them doing that yet. If Appoco had more free time we wouldn't even have this thread, as he would just make the stats and be done with it.

There is a reason that only 5-10 ppl ever manage to get a stat set together, because it is a lot harder than it looks and THE MAJORITY don't even know what half the numbers actually mean. If you are the representative of the masses then please stick your set up here and we can all vote... for Patrikc's.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 13:23   #88
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Re: R66 ship stats

That you would vote for Patrikc's says a lot about either your ability to read stats poorly or to not respect the wishes of people to not have to play in forts to have any slither of enjoyment...

Either way, it says a lot about you.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 13:37   #89
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
There is a reason that only 5-10 ppl ever manage to get a stat set together, because it is a lot harder than it looks and THE MAJORITY don't even know what half the numbers actually mean. If you are the representative of the masses then please stick your set up here and we can all vote... for Patrikc's.
Tbh, I think if I presented here a set of stats from a previous round without any modification (without informing this ofc), I would get a lot of critics.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 13:54   #90
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Re: R66 ship stats

so this stats gonna be used for sure??

we used to check between more then one set, debate, and appoco pick one in the end.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 13:57   #91
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
That you would vote for Patrikc's says a lot about either your ability to read stats poorly or to not respect the wishes of people to not have to play in forts to have any slither of enjoyment...

Either way, it says a lot about you.
The only issue with patrikcs set is the fort aspect. As a set of stats on face value they are balanced. Intact there has been very little mentioned about changes, just the style of play they represent. But this leads more to my point that people have massive variations on opinion on a single set so how could 2 sets be open to public voting. People always want a personal advantage, so they will pick at things in stats to better themselves rather than thinking of the bigger picture
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 14:08   #92
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The only issue with patrikcs set is the fort aspect. As a set of stats on face value they are balanced. Intact there has been very little mentioned about changes, just the style of play they represent. But this leads more to my point that people have massive variations on opinion on a single set so how could 2 sets be open to public voting. People always want a personal advantage, so they will pick at things in stats to better themselves rather than thinking of the bigger picture
This is actually quite right. The balancing is decent, some small issues, but I guess they know about it. The fort aspect is what's bothering quite a lot of ppl.

Not sure if voteing would be the way to go, but maybe the #stats channel or get a bigger stats team from various alliances would be a better way to sort stats? This have been brought up before, just having one guy(+ Jintao checking them) isn't the best solution. Propose a set, get feedback from an "appointed" team, edit before releasing. The forum isn't really well suited for stats discuission.

This might not be 100% accurate, but from talks I had with ppl then P3N, Norse, CT, Ult (based on comments of possible tactics, they might be happy with the tactic) isn't particular happy with the stats. This is 4 out of top 5 from last round. Not sure Norse deserves to be mentioned with the rest as a serious alliance, but 3 out of 4 top alliances then.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 14:20   #93
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The only issue with patrikcs set is the fort aspect. As a set of stats on face value they are balanced. Intact there has been very little mentioned about changes, just the style of play they represent. But this leads more to my point that people have massive variations on opinion on a single set so how could 2 sets be open to public voting. People always want a personal advantage, so they will pick at things in stats to better themselves rather than thinking of the bigger picture
This isn't about personal advantage...it's about variation and not sending everyone down the same path.

The games already gotten way to simple, boring and tedious e.g. with the nerfing of MC's. You're basically limiting people to "this is the way you have to play". Why? Why can't we have variation?

It's easy to play any set of stats as a fort...not so easy to play any set as a random

The way the people in charge think here is so narrow minded and stuck in its ways. It's like the Arsene Wenger managerial philosophy applied to PA.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 14:41   #94
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
This isn't about personal advantage...it's about variation and not sending everyone down the same path.

The games already gotten way to simple, boring and tedious e.g. with the nerfing of MC's. You're basically limiting people to "this is the way you have to play". Why? Why can't we have variation?

It's easy to play any set of stats as a fort...not so easy to play any set as a random

The way the people in charge think here is so narrow minded and stuck in its ways. It's like the Arsene Wenger managerial philosophy applied to PA.
There is actually plenty of variety with Pats set, you have all just jumped on the fort bandwagon and started pouring a big glass of whine.

The fact you are all so narrow minded and fully believe every piece of bullshit your cronies tell you is what is wrong with you.

No one is forced to fort you are all just scared that ult will fort and do it better than you. Nothing in these stats is weak except the creativity of those that look at them.

Finally if you don't like what the option is then go and play ad2460 for a bit, it will help you remember how good and diverse and free of constraints PA actually is
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 15:09   #95
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
That you would vote for Patrikc's says a lot about either your ability to read stats poorly or to not respect the wishes of people to not have to play in forts to have any slither of enjoyment...

Either way, it says a lot about you.
If you think voting is good, then you've just highlighted a problem with voting, which is a strange contradiction.

If you think voting is bad, then Kaiba's vote for or against whatever doesn't matter.

Either way, you have no argument.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 15:49   #96
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Re: R66 ship stats

I realised this Mz tbh. I don't particularly want a vote hence why I didn't say so in my post. I actually just want the admin team to listen for once and stop going down the same sh*t route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
There is actually plenty of variety with Pats set, you have all just jumped on the fort bandwagon and started pouring a big glass of whine. No there isn't, there is XP by going random or forting with fr/de, cr/bs. The benefits of XP runs out within 500 ticks, and with the nerf of MC's a few rounds back this is weaker still. There are two strategies, fort or XP. That is it.

The fact you are all so narrow minded and fully believe every piece of bullshit your cronies tell you is what is wrong with you. I came to this conclusion myself by looking at the stats - it's not rocket science. Being narrow minded results in not being able to change opinion. I have changed opinions countless times when proved otherwise. You have done nothing to dispel my opinions. Instead you choose to take the game down the same coma inducing path.

No one is forced to fort you are all just scared that ult will fort and do it better than you. Nothing in these stats is weak except the creativity of those that look at them. Seriously? This is one of the stupidest statements I've ever heard on these forums. Firstly, it's a given Ult fort. Second, Fi/Co is hugely weak in these stats. I'm very creative - I couldn't afford to do what I do if I wasn't, so take your Ult hat off, put it in the corner, because not everything is about those sad sacks.

Finally if you don't like what the option is then go and play ad2460 for a bit, it will help you remember how good and diverse and free of constraints PA actually is. I don't need games, I play because of nostalgia from when I was a kid and I got roped back into it. It's not hard to quit again. I have tried to be rational with you, but it's impossible. You want it your way, not the way of the people. I don't care if one ally forts or another doesn't - but at least give people that want to play random and be in other galaxies to socialise with new people the chance to actually do so successfully....because the same fort nonsense is old and boring. Really old and boring. And no, it's not free of constraints. It's simple, and it gets simpler with each passing round as they continue to take away opportunities for players to be creative.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 18:02   #97
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Re: R66 ship stats

Back on topic... can anyone just post some alternative (and viable) stats? I don't entirely agree on having a simple vote... but putting 2 choices into the mix and then arguing for each is likely the best method to come to an agreement here.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 19:21   #98
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Re: R66 ship stats

*shrugs* The link to pat's stats in this post hasn't been valid for like 4 days now. So i'm not sure about which stats most of you have been talking.

Correct link: http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats


Secondly tomorrow at ~9 GMT we'll have a beta session with pat's stats on http://beta.planetarion.com to see if they play out too forty or not.

I invite you all to come and try them and give an informed opinion about them and not just based on your first impression of what might not even have been the right set of stats. Please play them as if you would in a real round and see for yourself if they are too forty or not.

Pat's set is almost ST which means that where in any other fort round you would have 2 ships that target atleast 4 classes or 3 ships which target atleast 5 classes. His set will only target 4 classes over 3 ships. Which already nerfs the effectiveness of the fort. Plus the fact that almost every build needs 5 ships means your value will be spread out thin if you want to be able to defend.

These 2 factors hopefully reduce the power of forts enough for them to be playable. But I invite you to come find out for youself tomorrow at ~9 GMT.

PS take into account pat's set isn't final since work has stopped on them since this discussion started. Mostly emp and emp armor still need to be balanced peopzely.

I'm also open to having any kind of adult discussion with anyone about them. You can always find me on IRC in #beta.

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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 20:52   #99
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Re: R66 ship stats

I don't see any reference to galaxy size in the announcement. Patrikc, does that impact your view of your stats?


P.S. Beta is pointless. But have fun.

[edit] I'll explain that last statement. Forting relies on cooperation, defense, intelligence. On a beta server, with fast ticks, in a small universe, in a 'round' that does not matter, there are not enough people to cooperate, you have to be online every X minutes, rather than once a night, and there aren't enough people to form more than a couple of full-size galaxies anyway. Even if the stats are super-forty, you will see no forts in a beta round. The same is true, for some reason or another, for nearly all other things you might want to test on the beta server. Not only is it useless, it is actively misinforming.
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Unread 4 Mar 2016, 22:50   #100
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Well actually 'new players' seems to be a favourite of yours when debating stuff.
I thought about denying this... But it is probably true enough, whether pa can gain more players is one of my recurring themes on the forums though I did not think it was really coming out over the last round or two!

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Your belief that that almost everyone will have a familiarity with stats to the point of being able to pick one set over another is ridiculous. There are ppl out there who play Xan cos they like the colour green for god's sake. Why don't we throw open every little decision to the moronic masses and end up with an entirely unplayable game.
Your dismissal of everyone's intelligence seems equally baffling to me. Almost all pa players I have played with have had some interest in the stats after their first couple of rounds. Some I agree have peculiar ideas about them but most have perfectly valid readings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
If the majority are going to do what their alliance says then why bother having a player vote, have an alliance vote, or as most are in pre formed blocks have a block vote.
An alliance vote would be a fair enough option for getting general opinion. However I never actually agreed that players would vote with their hc, that was your idea. I am certain that within p3n there would be at least two factions on stats... There always are!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
How about this for a crazy idea, let the PA team pick as it has done for the last 65 rounds, the game hasn't imploded from them doing that yet. If Appoco had more free time we wouldn't even have this thread, as he would just make the stats and be done with it.
the pa team has in the past been known for making some very odd decisions regarding stats. I am not sure I would trust the pa crew more than players who have been involved in stats for a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
There is a reason that only 5-10 ppl ever manage to get a stat set together, because it is a lot harder than it looks and THE MAJORITY don't even know what half the numbers actually mean. If you are the representative of the masses then please stick your set up here and we can all vote... for Patrikc's.
What is it about the pa forums that no matter the discussion someone has to launch a personal attack? I have been involved in dozens of these stats discussions, and have made a set myself - unfortunately they were not chosen. If I am representative then I am glad to say that the masses are quite qualified to have an opinion on stats!

However I don't actually have much of an opinion on consulting the players with an ingame poll; I am inclined to think that it would be cutting things too fine in terms of timing, though as you can tell unlike you and mz I think their opinion would be worth having. The problem is if we actaually got opinions there would then be no time to actually take them into account.
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