When you're drunk

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by pablissimo

Assume they're clean beforehand, for my benefit.

One group come out heroin addicts, the other come out hungover and smelling of kebab meat.

youre assuming they arent addicted to alcohol, which they probably would be if they did it every day for five years.

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

I was referring to harmful in a more broad sense than purely physical. LSD is not known for having major 'physical' side-effects, yet it has damaged people in other ways.

(in any case, I think the "physical vs mental" dichotomy is hopeless confused, and should probably be avoided altogether).

That depends whether they happen to get addicted or not.

Playstations are pretty expensive, but most people dont get the urge to steal one after having a go on their friend's. Since taking heroin is apparently unlikely to result in addiction, its strange how users cant just delay their next hit for a few weeks until theyve saved up the money.

well ok, lets not talk about harm, you seem to want to concentrate on addiction. Perhaps because that is pretty much the only area where heroin comes off worse than alcohol in relation to the damage it does to people.

And as to your final point, most people can, its not a case of "one hit - addict" for most people. The majority of heroin users are recreational, believe it or not.

granted a lot of them do get addicted, but what i was trying to say is that being addicted to heroin wouldnt be such an impediment to leading an otherwise normal life if it were legal and cheap.

[pablissimo]

One year.

And I've managed three on a not dissimilar basis without much trouble. I've not had a pint for a few days now and the most pressing thing on my mind is whether or not to have another cuppa, as opposed to where I'm going to get my next Guinness. I doubt I could say the same had I been using heroin for a year on anything like the same regularity as I drink.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

well ok, lets not talk about harm

I'd prefer to talk about harm in an overall sense rather than deliberately restricting the discussion to specific areas where alcohol could be worse.

granted a lot of them do get addicted, but what i was trying to say is that being addicted to heroin wouldnt be such an impediment to leading an otherwise normal life if it were legal and cheap.

I wouldn't call heroin addiction a particularly desirable state even if it the drug was free. And while legalisation would lower the price, it would also increase the number of addicts.

[Dante Hicks]

Comparing alcohol and heroin in terms of each person using is a bit silly unless you're defining what effect each user would be going for. Someone drinking for hours each day would be a hell of a lot worse off than someone who just had a swift half at lunch time.

Similarly an LSD trip can last for hours, so to compare against alcohol you'd have to compare the effects with drinking for 8-9 hours solidly.

[Deepflow]

you drank alcohol every day for a year?

but, having said that, you have never actually tried heroin, so how can you tell?

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

I'd prefer to talk about harm in an overall sense rather than deliberately restricting the discussion to specific areas where alcohol could be worse.


I wouldn't call heroin addiction a particularly desirable state even if it the drug was free. And while legalisation would lower the price, it would also increase the number of addicts.

as opposed to restricting the discussion to addiction and bringing any discussion i try to start about harm down to meaningless semantics you mean?

"I wouldn't call heroin addiction a particularly desirable state even if it the drug was free."

why not?

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Comparing alcohol and heroin in terms of each person using is a bit silly unless you're defining what effect each user would be going for. Someone drinking for hours each day would be a hell of a lot worse off than someone who just had a swift half at lunch time.

Similarly an LSD trip can last for hours, so to compare against alcohol you'd have to compare the effects with drinking for 8-9 hours solidly.

Why? The original claim was that LSD was more damaging than alcohol. Noone mentioned anything about a 'minute vs minute' basis. You wouldnt say that sunbeds are more dangerous than LSD because spending 8 hours solid on a sunbed would destroy your body.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

as opposed to restricting the discussion to addiction and bringing any discussion i try to start about harm down to meaningless semantics you mean?

Addiction is probably the most major side effect of taking heroin. As far as I can tell, you're saying that physical damage is the worst part of taking alcohol (although I would disagree). Given this, its a bit unfair to ignore the addiction aspect when talking about which drug is more damaging.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Why? The original claim was that LSD was more damaging than alcohol. Noone mentioned anything about a 'minute vs minute' basis. You wouldnt say that sunbeds are more dangerous than LSD because spending 8 hours solid on a sunbed would destroy your body.

Well I wouldn't compare sunbeds with LSD unless there was a specific context the comparison was made in, otherwise what I'd be saying would be stupid.

"Regular usage" doesn't mean anything unless you're defining the end result. If I take one billionth of a gram of heroin every day orally (i.e. with no effect) am I a regular heroin user?

Even if drugs were legal / free then people would not replace a pint with their dinner with a needle full of heroin. What people might do is swap "drinking to the point of oblivion" with another drug. In that context is how any reasonable comparison should be made.

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Addiction is probably the most major side effect of taking heroin. As far as I can tell, you're saying that physical damage is the worst part of taking alcohol (although I would disagree). Given this, its a bit unfair to ignore the addiction aspect when talking about which drug is more damaging.

There is no other thing about taking alcohol that is more serious than the physical damage. Except possibly the greater scope it gives you for getting into fights/drink driving/getting arrested.

i wasnt ignoring the addiction aspect at all, you just seemed to want to completely ignore the harm. Im quite happy to talk about addiction, and in fact i have done a few posts up.

im also now curious to know what you think the "worst" part about taking alcohol is.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Even if drugs were legal / free then people would not replace a pint with their dinner with a needle full of heroin. What people might do is swap "drinking to the point of oblivion" with another drug. In that context is how any reasonable comparison should be made.

that's just not clear.

the word addiction is being bandied around quite a lot without any really definition. but i hope no one is suggesting that heroine is not highly addictive in comparison to bean sprouts

EDIT: obviously when i say 'no one' it carries the caveat that excludes our resident druggie who will say literally anything in defence of his favourite passtime

[Deepflow]

this thread has more absurd metaphors than... well... anything.

[lokken]

gun down drunks and they'll never drink again

true story

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

the word addiction is being bandied around quite a lot without any really definition. but i hope no one is suggesting that heroine is not highly addictive in comparison to bean sprouts

EDIT: obviously when i say 'no one' it carries the caveat that excludes our resident druggie who will say literally anything in defence of his favourite passtime

To be fair, I don't think Deepflow has said heroin is not addictive. Rather that it's addictive properties are sometimes exaggerated. I read somewhere (albeit in government sponsored stats) that 40% of regular users are not addicted. Whether that's meaningful or not I'm not sure.

However, I think where the discussion lies is why (and if/when) addiction is a bad thing (or harmful). Computer games are probably addictive in some senses, as are other pursuits (gambling for one). The issue is that at present heroin addiction is dangerous because there is an uncertain / irregular supply and it is very expensive (so crime follows on as a natural consequences).

No-one really minds if you are addicted to wanking or internet forums because (usually) you can perform / obtain these things easily and without harming others. To what extent heroin addiction would be less dangerous if it was cheap, regulated and in regular supply is debatable but it's not difficult to follow why it might be.

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

that's just not clear.

the word addiction is being bandied around quite a lot without any really definition. but i hope no one is suggesting that heroine is not highly addictive in comparison to bean sprouts

EDIT: obviously when i say 'no one' it carries the caveat that excludes our resident druggie who will say literally anything in defence of his favourite passtime

ive only just noticed the edit, you crafty bugger.

ive also said the arguments hundreds of times, in this thread and others, and dante seems to have the right idea anyway. The fact that you do not seem to be willing to concede any ground whatsoever only goes to show how deeply ingrained the general societal view of heroin and drugs is in people.

that and you're stubborn.

[lokken]

guns don't kill people, people kill people.

[Duncan]

Clearly everything that's "bad" for you should be cheap and legal.

Tbh, the only reason that heroin isn't legal is because not enough people with actual power are willing to make it so. Heroin users are in a vast minority. Basically noone important gives two shits about you junkie assholes yet, sorry.

[s|k]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

On a user by user basis, alcohol is not as harmful as heroin or cocaine. On a social level, alcohol is not as harmful as heroin or cocaine once you have factored in the organised crime which is funded by trade in these black markets. The only way you could conceivably argue this point is by saying "more people die as a direct result of alcohol than drug X" which is silly, since alcohol is consumed by a lot more people than most other drugs (its like saying "more people die every year in Britain than Antartica, hence Britain is a more dangerous place to live than Antartica").

While I would argue opposite of what you say, my point was namely that alcohol is a drug. Just the fact that we're even comparing it's harmful effects to heroin or crack cocaine a should leave no doubt in anyones mind that alcohol is indeed a drug.

djbass, bless his soul, was comparing it to cough syrup. I'm sorry but it wasn't cough syrup my grandfather drank the night he blew his head off in front of the fourteen year old who would become my dad. It wasn't cough syrup that my father came dependent on to the point that the state decided to take me from him and put me into foster care for the rest of my childhood. It isn't cough syrup, nor cocaine, nor heroin, that's leading to hundreds of thousands of driving fatalities and spousal and child abuse on a massive scale.

My only point I want to make is that alcohol is indeed a drug, and a dangerous one at that.

[djbass]

Originally Posted by s|k

djbass, bless his soul, was comparing it to cough syrup. I'm sorry but it wasn't cough syrup my grandfather drank the night he blew his head off in front of the fourteen year old who would become my dad. It wasn't cough syrup that my father came dependent on to the point that the state decided to take me from him and put me into foster care for the rest of my childhood. It isn't cough syrup, nor cocaine, nor heroin, that's leading to hundreds of thousands of driving fatalities and spousal and child abuse on a massive scale.

My only point I want to make is that alcohol is indeed a drug, and a dangerous one at that.

Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. I figured there had to be a reason to your inflamitory reaction to my post.

My original post wasn't trying to say that alcohol was not a drug, that was never the point, it just got taken out of context and turned into a anti-drug debate. I was just trying to relate my experiences with alcohol in terms that someone else may understand since I honestly don't know an appropriate term to describe the feeling. The closest I could think of was possibly the term 'stoned', based on other peoples descriptions of what it felt like (and a million movies with stoned teenagers etc).

I used the word 'drug' in distinction between alcohol because I was trying to keep everything within laymans terms, by using it, most people know what I'm referring to. I really didn't feel like typing Methamphetamine, Amphetamines, OxyContin®, LSD, Cocaine, GHB, Heroin, Ketamine, Marijuana, Ecstasy, Steroids... the list goes on. The only other term I can think of that may also used is 'illicit drugs'.

I'm sorry to hear of your grandfather, that is a terrible thing. I have also witnessed peoples lives go to shit because of alcohol, but equally I have seen the same things happen to people using other drugs. It is a big problem, but it's not the worst, I hold it at equals to every other drug out there. Like I said I think how much of a problem it is depends on your demographic, because while I live in not only one of the highest alcohol consuming countries in the world, but also the state with the largest alcohol consumption in Australia. I still find that equal amounts of social problems and crime are also due to illicit drugs.

[s|k]

Originally Posted by djbass

Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. I figured there had to be a reason to your inflamitory reaction to my post.

My original post wasn't trying to say that alcohol was not a drug, that was never the point, it just got taken out of context and turned into a anti-drug debate. I was just trying to relate my experiences with alcohol in terms that someone else may understand since I honestly don't know an appropriate term to describe the feeling. The closest I could think of was possibly the term 'stoned', based on other peoples descriptions of what it felt like (and a million movies with stoned teenagers etc).

I used the word 'drug' in distinction between alcohol because I was trying to keep everything within laymans terms, by using it, most people know what I'm referring to. I really didn't feel like typing Methamphetamine, Amphetamines, OxyContin®, LSD, Cocaine, GHB, Heroin, Ketamine, Marijuana, Ecstasy, Steroids... the list goes on. The only other term I can think of that may also used is 'illicit drugs'.

I'm sorry to hear of your grandfather, that is a terrible thing. I have also witnessed peoples lives go to shit because of alcohol, but equally I have seen the same things happen to people using other drugs. It is a big problem, but it's not the worst, I hold it at equals to every other drug out there. Like I said I think how much of a problem it is depends on your demographic, because while I live in not only one of the highest alcohol consuming countries in the world, but also the state with the largest alcohol consumption in Australia. I still find that equal amounts of social problems and crime are also due to illicit drugs.

1) I'm not asking for your sympathy.

2) Alcohol is a drug, if you've been drunk, then you've been under the influence of a drug. Period. Every drug is different and affects everyone differently. The same drug affects different people differently.

It seems you take pride in swaggering about and saying "I've never used drugs." Well you're wrong you have used drugs. I've smoked pot and used MDMA, so I suppose according to your logic I would always have to go ahead and enumerate all the drugs I haven't used and have lost the privilege of using the specially significant (and bullshit lie) of "never used drugs." Oh and if you want to qualifiy with "never used illicit drugs" then I suppose you could do that as long as you've never consumed alcohol when you were too young,

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by s|k

Oh and if you want to qualifiy with "never used illicit drugs"

i doubt he wants to 'qualify'

that was his point all along.

it wasn't that difficult to notice unless you happened to be too busy on an 'even parceatamol is a drug' deranged little rant ...

[Sarina_Joy]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

"I wouldn't call heroin addiction a particularly desirable state even if it the drug was free."

why not?

I don't consider an addiction to any drug which alters my ability to talk, walk or think straight a desirable state.

I am addicted to nicotene. I can smoke cigarettes and still carry on with my life, do my job, talk to people, type crap on an internet forum. If I were addicted to any other drug I doubt I could do this.

I drink alcohol. I have seen how it affects me, I have seen how I lost the ability to speak/think/walk in a civilised manner. I have smoked hash a few times. I vomitted a lot. I have never tried any other drug other than prescription drugs. I have no desire to. I am 28 years of age and 14 years of drinking has taught me my limits. Just about. Perhaps if I had started taking other drugs at 14 I would have learned my limits with them by now but for some reason I never had any desire to. I don't give a crap what drugs others take, but I'm glad I never went past alcohol.

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy

I don't consider an addiction to any drug which alters my ability to talk, walk or think straight a desirable state.

I am addicted to nicotene. I can smoke cigarettes and still carry on with my life, do my job, talk to people, type crap on an internet forum. If I were addicted to any other drug I doubt I could do this.

I drink alcohol. I have seen how it affects me, I have seen how I lost the ability to speak/think/walk in a civilised manner. I have smoked hash a few times. I vomitted a lot. I have never tried any other drug other than prescription drugs. I have no desire to. I am 28 years of age and 14 years of drinking has taught me my limits. Just about. Perhaps if I had started taking other drugs at 14 I would have learned my limits with them by now but for some reason I never had any desire to. I don't give a crap what drugs others take, but I'm glad I never went past alcohol.

funnily enough, addicts arent high 100% of the time, but i do see your point, it might not be considered entirely desirable to be high on heroin even for a decent % of the time.

as far as pure pleasure per day goes though, i don't think there are many ways you could beat it. Whether or not that's what you want out of life is a different question though.

[Yahwe]

henry let's get this straight.

despite your advocating the virtues of heroine, you don't actually take it do you?

[Sarina_Joy]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

funnily enough, addicts arent high 100% of the time, but i do see your point, it might not be considered entirely desirable to be high on heroin even for a decent % of the time.

as far as pure pleasure per day goes though, i don't think there are many ways you could beat it. Whether or not that's what you want out of life is a different question though.

I know addicts aren't high 100% of the time. But they are addicted which to me means they may have difficulty functioning without the said drug.

Getting a high is fine. Do it whichever way you choose. I choose beer. I enjoy the effects and know my limits. May sound dull but it's the way I like it.

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

henry let's get this straight.

despite your advocating the virtues of heroine, you don't actually take it do you?

no, you don't have to worry dear

im far too scared of getting addicted and stealing from my friends family and ending up in the gutter. The statistics say i probably won't, but it's quite a risk

edit: one thing i should add though

before i die, without a doubt.

[midge5]

The topic seems to have changed slightly but for the original question, I've never really felt like I have vertigo but my senses have increased to the point where I can feel the Earth's rotation.

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

you should try it, i hear it's fun.

I did and I don't think so - at least not for me. that's not to say I mind other people getting drunk, but personally I find it too strange. I have a bit of my brain that remains stone cold sober and it feels like I am in that bit of the brain, riding round on a drunk person and I'm thinking "what the fck are you doing" too strange, I don't like it.

[vampire_lestat]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

youre assuming they arent addicted to alcohol, which they probably would be if they did it every day for five years.

thats not true, I drink nearly every day, and have done for the past 3 or 4 years, and i'm not addicted to alcohol, neither are my parents, who also do, and neither is my brother, who has for the last 2 years or so.

It could just be that we're a family of unusual people though.

[ChubbyChecker]

You can stop any time, right?

[vampire_lestat]

I assume so, I stop for a week or so occasionally, more due to poverty than anything else, but I don't go and rob a shop to get more/money for more.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by vampire_lestat

I assume so, I stop for a week or so occasionally, more due to poverty than anything else, but I don't go and rob a shop to get more/money for more.

Again though, this is exactly why we'd need to define "desired effect".

I know various people who have drunk alcohol probably every day for twenty years - but that's because they have a small glass of wine with their dinner. Comparing "taking heroin" with "drinking alcohol" only makes sense once we've established what the user is going for.

If someone drinks every day to the point where they will pass out / extreme vomitting etc then they will probably have severe health problems after five years. This seems relatively uncontroversial. They will also probably be addicted.

[Deepflow]

yes, if you just drink a few drinks socially then its completely different to 10+ pints of cider a day, obviously, its stupid to argue otherwise and i don't think anyone ever said anything to the contrary.

The real question is, why would you WANT to drink alcohol every day when there are so many better drugs about?

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

yes, if you just drink a few drinks socially then its completely different to 10+ pints of cider a day, obviously, its stupid to argue otherwise and i don't think anyone ever said anything to the contrary.

The real question is, why would you WANT to drink alcohol every day when there are so many better drugs about?

So the police don't confiscate your alcohol ?

[ChubbyChecker]

The police wouldn't confiscate your alcohol if you were a heroine addict.

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3

So the police don't confiscate your alcohol ?

so youre agreeing with me that the problem is with the law?

good stuff

[vampire_lestat]

I just do the drug that i'm comfortable with and you do the ones you like, neither of us will change the other persons mind that theirs is the 'better drug'.

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by vampire_lestat

I just do the drug that i'm comfortable with and you do the ones you like, neither of us will change the other persons mind that theirs is the 'better drug'.

then again, i say "better drug" from a perspective of knowing them all, and you stick with yours. Technically mine is a more knowledgeable standpoint. However, i know full well im not going to change your mind You're right there.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

then again, i say "better drug" from a perspective of knowing them all, and you stick with yours. Technically mine is a more knowledgeable standpoint. However, i know full well im not going to change your mind You're right there.

heh

so you have taken heroine have you?

[Duncan]

Seriously Deepflow, if you've never even tried heroin, stop singing it's usefulness to society.

I think it, along with all other hard drugs, should be made legal to take the profits from the druglords and the turf wars off our streets. Just so long as the drug user doesn't expect Tax dollars to bail them out financially via rehab or welfare or to support their habit. Fry your brain, drink yourself to death, I simply don't care if you make bad choices.

It would be interesting to see how much big business would sell heroin and coke for as well.

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

The real question is, why would you WANT to drink alcohol every day when there are so many better drugs about?

just contemplate the throught processes of the person becoming addicted a little more. They might become addicted because of going out too much, and building up a tolerance, or they might become addicted after a bereavement when they find that alcohol numbs the pain, eventually building up a tolerance and so on.

normally people work themselves into addiction, not think

"hmm, I think I will become a drug addict today, aah I will pick alcohol"

nor do they think

"hey, I am getting addicted to alcohol now, I'd better switch to a different and better drug"

as for other drugs at a social/non-addicted level, well perhaps they just like the effect of alcohol. I like the occasional drink and do not desire anything else, regardless of how "good" it is.

sorry, but your question is a bit of a silly one really. if you had thought about the question a little more you might have seen that.

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

so youre agreeing with me that the problem is with the law?

good stuff

well no i was trying to take the piss and make a reference to your drugs getting confiscated but ok whatever.

[Peace]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

then again, i say "better drug" from a perspective of knowing them all, and you stick with yours. Technically mine is a more knowledgeable standpoint. However, i know full well im not going to change your mind You're right there.

are you saying that you have to experience something to have a valid opinion on it?

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Radical Edward

just contemplate the throught processes of the person becoming addicted a little more. They might become addicted because of going out too much, and building up a tolerance, or they might become addicted after a bereavement when they find that alcohol numbs the pain, eventually building up a tolerance and so on.

normally people work themselves into addiction, not think

"hmm, I think I will become a drug addict today, aah I will pick alcohol"

nor do they think

"hey, I am getting addicted to alcohol now, I'd better switch to a different and better drug"

as for other drugs at a social/non-addicted level, well perhaps they just like the effect of alcohol. I like the occasional drink and do not desire anything else, regardless of how "good" it is.

sorry, but your question is a bit of a silly one really. if you had thought about the question a little more you might have seen that.

before i reply to the actual argument, i just want to mention that i think i almost became addicted to alcohol in my first year of uni, then started doing weed instead. Of course its only anecdotal, but there it is.

but yeah, it was a bit silly. Still, my perspective at least, is that alcohol is all good fun, but i could probably give it up entirely and not miss it ever except when out with people. I can't really say that for other drugs.

As for the addiction thing, im perfectly aware people don't plan to get addicted to things. But what you WILL get addicted to when you hit a huge low and turn to drugs is the drug you use the most, whether it is alcohol or heroin or whatever. Someone who already drinks heavily, or even semi heavily, is far more likely to get addicted than someone who only drinks occassionally.

technically though, i agree with you that my question was a bit silly

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Peace

are you saying that you have to experience something to have a valid opinion on it?

it depends what that thing is, but in any case, it will make your opinion of it much more worthwhile if you actually have first hand experience of it.

Of course people who havent experienced it first hand will still have valid opinions sometimes, but i would tend to trust a first hand source over second or third most of the time. Why, wouldn't you?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Radical Edward

as for other drugs at a social/non-addicted level, well perhaps they just like the effect of alcohol. I like the occasional drink and do not desire anything else, regardless of how "good" it is.

sorry, but your question is a bit of a silly one really. if you had thought about the question a little more you might have seen that.

I don't think it is that silly a question. There are people who happily binge drink / chain smoke but wouldn't dream of trying even relatively non-addictive drugs. The question of why they wouldn't is fairly interesting. Often it comes down to either them thinking the legal / illegal split is terribly important, or they've received some poor quality information about the effects of other drugs.

Saying "well perhaps they just like the effect of alcohol" is rather unhelpful. I dare say they do, but that doesn't explain why they started with alcohol and haven't / won't start with anything else.

[flapjack]

Make all drugs legal and take the safety labels off everything...

In a few years time, we'll all live in a (no longer overpopulated) idiot free world!

Now let me go and get a bucket before this sarcasm drips onto my computer box and fries it.

[Sarina_Joy]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Saying "well perhaps they just like the effect of alcohol" is rather unhelpful. I dare say they do, but that doesn't explain why they started with alcohol and haven't / won't start with anything else.

Alcohol was easy to get hold of when I was 14. Other drugs weren't. When friends of mine started taking other drugs when they were 16 or so they totally changed. I know the drugs weren't the only factor but the link was too easy to see. They turned into people I didn't like. Their main concern was getting drugs, they were hanging around with older people who were dealing to them, and becoming different people. Anyone who didn't take drugs was boring. A 'square'. I didn't want to be like them.

[KoeN]

and then you decided to become a goth-troll?