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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 06:30   #1
Kargool
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Cath salvage

Ok, I dont know if the discussion about cath salvage ended in: lets not let cath's have salvage, but one idea popped into my head.

Caths are peaceloving hippies who does not want to kill unless forced. So, when the caths emp their opponents ships in def, they dont get salvage (unless there are ships that is destroyed by other races). My idea is : cath's take hostages. Like FARC.

Idea is simply. Let caths take a small amount of ships hostage. The attacking planet can then chose to pay the ransom, or dont. The ransom could be the amount it would have given in salvage if the ships was killed. If the attacking planet dont want to get his pilots home to Caprica, then the cath will keep the ships as value.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 08:10   #2
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Re: Cath salvage

So, Cathaar can EMP and steal? Because i think that isnt the best idea, tbh.

If the hostaged ships were then melted down for scrap then that would be ok, maybe starting out less than normal salvage %age, but with more Core resources tech the melting down becomes more efficient or something (but takes more ticks to get the resources)...

Also, is the transfer of ships/cash instant? Do you need to set whether you'll pay a ransom before they engage in battle? What if you tick yes, but cant afford to pay? What if you've got enough resources, but not the right type of resource (eg, M scarce)?
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 08:43   #3
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Re: Cath salvage

Imho cath allready have a huge advantage in having higher res-eff and the hardcoded higher salvage percentage. They also have quite decent killships and in addition to this any def-fleets they get are likely to be kill-ships. It's not broken, fix something that actually is.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 09:15   #4
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Re: Cath salvage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
So, Cathaar can EMP and steal? Because i think that isnt the best idea, tbh.

If the hostaged ships were then melted down for scrap then that would be ok, maybe starting out less than normal salvage %age, but with more Core resources tech the melting down becomes more efficient or something (but takes more ticks to get the resources)...

Also, is the transfer of ships/cash instant? Do you need to set whether you'll pay a ransom before they engage in battle? What if you tick yes, but cant afford to pay? What if you've got enough resources, but not the right type of resource (eg, M scarce)?
The hostage ship will only be kept as value, you are not able to use it. The ships that you take hostage will be bought out for the amount its worth in salvage. I.E 30% salvage plus the cath bonus (will prolly need to be adjusted down with the suggestion though) Transfer of cash will happen at the same eta as f.ex ally donations.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 09:16   #5
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Re: Cath salvage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Imho cath allready have a huge advantage in having higher res-eff and the hardcoded higher salvage percentage. They also have quite decent killships and in addition to this any def-fleets they get are likely to be kill-ships. It's not broken, fix something that actually is.
Excuse me, decent killships? The Spider?
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 09:18   #6
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Re: Cath salvage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
The hostage ship will only be kept as value, you are not able to use it. The ships that you take hostage will be bought out for the amount its worth in salvage. I.E 30% salvage plus the cath bonus (will prolly need to be adjusted down with the suggestion though) Transfer of cash will happen at the same eta as f.ex ally donations.
So, if captured ships add to a planet's value*, wouldnt that mean that it would be quite easy to stuff an XP wh0ring Cath planet just by sending random ships to inflate their value which they cant use but can be used to receive more incoming as the bash limit is higher?


*Also, isnt the point of a planet's Value (as opposed to score) meant to better reflect their "hard power", ie their ships, stockpiled resources, constructions and so on? If so, then adding this fluff means that cathaar planets of similar value to other races will actually be significantly less powerful, given that the amount of incs that Cath planets receive (and thus must stun) would be rather quite high.

no?
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 09:23   #7
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Re: Cath salvage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
So, if captured ships add to a planet's value*, wouldnt that mean that it would be quite easy to stuff an XP wh0ring Cath planet just by sending random ships to inflate their value which they cant use but can be used to receive more incoming as the bash limit is higher?


*Also, isnt the point of a planet's Value (as opposed to score) meant to better reflect their "hard power", ie their ships, stockpiled resources, constructions and so on? If so, then adding this fluff means that cathaar planets of similar value to other races will actually be significantly less powerful, given that the amount of incs that Cath planets receive (and thus must stun) would be rather quite high.

no?
First off, that will be a player choice. If someone decides not to release their own ships and let the defender keep the value and then build new ships for a lot more than it cost to release the ships, then yes, they deserve to keep the ships in value. I am sure you would agree with me that building new ships for a full price is way more costly and to be honest, quite stupid than releasing the hostaged ships.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 09:25   #8
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Re: Cath salvage

Peaceloving hippies. Like FARC.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 09:36   #9
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Re: Cath salvage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Peaceloving hippies. Like FARC.

Yes, but do you find the concept interesting?
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 09:38   #10
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Re: Cath salvage

No, that's why I replied to something silly.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 10:07   #11
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Re: Cath salvage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
So, if captured ships add to a planet's value*, wouldnt that mean that it would be quite easy to stuff an XP wh0ring Cath planet just by sending random ships to inflate their value which they cant use but can be used to receive more incoming as the bash limit is higher?


*Also, isnt the point of a planet's Value (as opposed to score) meant to better reflect their "hard power", ie their ships, stockpiled resources, constructions and so on? If so, then adding this fluff means that cathaar planets of similar value to other races will actually be significantly less powerful, given that the amount of incs that Cath planets receive (and thus must stun) would be rather quite high.

no?
I do love you y'know. Was thinking the very same thing. Also means you can inflate a caths value so it can be attacked by bigger ships(so if a scanner fcks up and builds some emp-ships, all you have to do is throw a number of waves of small fleets from small planets on it and voilá! All of a sudden your bigger planets can take him down with sk's).
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 10:35   #12
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Re: Cath salvage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I am sure you would agree with me that building new ships for a full price is way more costly and to be honest, quite stupid than releasing the hostaged ships.
I'm not so sure. I reckon that there would be plenty of opportunties for people to abuse this sort of thing; consider "old" ships that are just inflating your value that you have no intention of using anymore now that you have new heavier ships or that no longer fit your strategy, or that your alliance no longer wants you to build, or if you're a zik then those ships that you steal that are 100% useless.

All of those ships will gradually accumulate, which you can then suicide on a Cath just at your bash limit. Toss in some pods, and the cath has a choice between loosing roids or having an inflated value for the rest of the round. Presumably, these caths would tend to defend themselves more, which leads to SKs destroying amps/factories/jammers/security centres, which leads to follow-on attacks and essentially "stacks on" cathaars who have a high value which is essentially not there.

I think you have to admit that adding value (particularly when everyone else only has "hard power") is problematic.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 11:19   #13
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Re: Cath salvage

I disagree, and I also think that your thoughts train there is quite excessive. Infact, it does not make any sense at all.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 12:17   #14
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Re: Cath salvage

nor does your original idea, its far too complex and simply not worth the effort, if you are suggesting salvage for cath, 'critical failure' which has been discussed numerous times has been the best suggestion put forward on the matter
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 12:46   #15
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Re: Cath salvage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Excuse me, decent killships? The Spider?
I'm the only one that thinks the spider is a good ship? It's the widow that sucks.

As for this idea; a major barrier to everything seems to be coding. This isn't worth the effort of implementation because I think SunTzu & Sovereign have pointed out compelling problems with it.

If we can observe what happens this round, we may find that the killships/salvage bonus may be sufficient on their own.

EDIT: And I even agree with Alki. Except on the critical failure part.
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Unread 4 Apr 2008, 16:23   #16
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Re: Cath salvage

this thead was probably brought on by the current system where:
a cathaar planet will emp for a zik to steal. the zik is the only one that loses ships due to dying when stealing. cathaar left with 0 salvage, while zik is left with salvage + stolen ships
in this case, yes i feel they should gain something in salvage, because with out their help the zik would not steal as much given that they would have to flak out damage then steal.

edit: but everything else in this thread didn't really seem very feasible.
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Unread 6 Apr 2008, 11:42   #17
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Re: Cath salvage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
this thead was probably brought on by the current system where:
a cathaar planet will emp for a zik to steal. the zik is the only one that loses ships due to dying when stealing. cathaar left with 0 salvage, while zik is left with salvage + stolen ships
in this case, yes i feel they should gain something in salvage, because with out their help the zik would not steal as much given that they would have to flak out damage then steal.

edit: but everything else in this thread didn't really seem very feasible.
There's also salvage from killed ships, and caths get a higher percentage of salvage, so they do get something, they just don't get the resources that the ziks spent on their own fleet.
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Unread 6 Apr 2008, 17:06   #18
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Re: Cath salvage

So, the ships that cathaar are holding add to their value. I expect that means that if I have ships held by a cathaar, those ships do not add to my value. Hmm. Cheap way to selfcover if you need ships in a hurry. Or to increase your value at the end of the round. So basically it makes sense not to get them back until you realy need them. While the Cath just sits there with all this useless value.

Edit: I do find the idea interesting though. Just might be hard to implement.
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Unread 6 Apr 2008, 17:24   #19
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Re: Cath salvage

hard to implament and easy to abuse , so dont like it
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Unread 7 Apr 2008, 03:41   #20
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Re: Cath salvage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2
I expect that means that if I have ships held by a cathaar, those ships do not add to my value. Hmm. Cheap way to selfcover if you need ships in a hurry.
This is such a major problem I thought i would quote it to highlight the issue. This scenario is particularly important; consider having a semi-friendly cath who defends against all your anti FR, and another against all your anti-FI, and etc, stealing it and holding those ships to ransom. Then, when you get massive wtfpwn FR incs*, all you need to do is pay the ransom for your anti FR to that Cath planet, and you automagically get significantly more anti FR that, presumably, wont show up on JGP or unit scans (if you wait till the last moment). And, by having different caths holding different classes of ships, you only need to pay a smaller amount for the ships that you need at that instant, rather than paying for everything.

It would definitely make stockpiles go alot further, given that salvage values are alot less than new-ship prices which is a key factor in the mix.

Whether or not this would constitute farming is clearly ambiguous given that the rules on farming are ambiguous. Having said that, its not ship farming, as they're your ships. And you're paying (over and above their worth) for them. At most, its salvage "farming" as a transfer of salvage from the ship-owner to the cath, which is still a little suspect and would imo warrant a deliberate change in the rules (or at least an announcement by the MHs as to how they'll interpret activity like this). This is especially because the entire system is about giving salvage resources to cathaars, so the distinction would need to be made between friendly and unfriendly caths. Which would be hard to prove, i imagine.

EDIT: and it wouldnt be too hard to organise it such that your own alliance still holds those ships (and becomes the recipient of the salvage) by merely attacking some random planet and having the cath defend against your fleet at that planet, and let the transfer happen there. Would that be "Green Offence", in the same vein as "Red Defence"?


*incs that are less than they would be otherwise given your smaller value and thus bash limit concerns
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