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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 07:00   #1
Gen_Chaos
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Thumbs down This is not Pa

Once upon a time a bunch of Norwegians created a spreadsheet game that attempted to simulate space warfare. There were ships that used emp and ships that fired, and most everything was useful insofar as firing on SOMETHING that might be coming at you.

Battles were won by dint of superior numbers, speed, or firepower, much as we might expect. Attackers and defenders hung around for a few hours and fired at each other and the victory was an actual victory in terms of who did more actual damage.

Somehow Pa has become a game of spec trolls calculating "If I build 550 MCs and put all my res in the fund for 600 ticks and go cloaked and sneak in pods that look like one thing but are another and catch the defender using any class of ships but the exact ones that are willing to fire on them, I can get maximum xp score gain." Huh?

Frankly, if we were playing with Barbie and Ken dressup dolls it would be more similar to anything like simulated space warfare than what we have to do now to play this game.

What race of people in their right minds would create whole fleets of ships that would refuse to fire on any other ship unless it met certain criteria of class? "Wait, fleet, everybody power down their weapons, those are frigs, and we don't fire at frigs!! Gods help us, they sent frigs at us! So we are all going to just sit here and die. Sorry about that."

What fleets of ships would travel across the universe to fire once and retreat home? "I know the battle just started, but we are only allowed to fire once, guys, so put your rockets and charges away and go home! Do it!"

And how on earth would it make sense for defending ships of the same class from outside an alliance to travel slower than ships from inside an alliance spanning the same distance, and slower than attacking ships from all different alliances? Not really going to happen in "real" warfare. Superior defense numbers would simply beat attackers, but... not in "Pa", where they can't get there in time because they have a different insignia painted on them. Those insignias must be really non-aerodynamic. Oh wait, no air in space.

How could building 800 Military Centers at your home base possibly provide you with any advantage at the other end of space, and what is an xp point in "real" space warfare? I'm sorry, in 45 or so rounds with xp I still have no idea what real purpose it serves other than to give number crunchers and spec benders a chance to best people who are actually using war tactics. "We may have only landed 12 ships on this massive planet but we were so brave the universe is going to give us the win and all our enemies will lose."

I can see xp playing a small role in encouraging players not to be Bob the Builders, but this has gone way past all sanity and purpose in that regard.

Will it ever be possible to move this game back into a scenario that resembles intelligent beings fighting each other (or semi-intelligent beings like B-Butch3r... sorry, guy, just always have to tweak you)... without all the cookies and gold stars for clever use of the stats and giving the game over to people who are gaming the stats and specs instead of actually fighting anything that might resemble an actual space battle?

And my favorite... imagine if Star Wars the movies were fought like Pa? The planet Tatooine would have been safe because the Death Star only fires at corvettes! Massive space battles would occur in which none of the ships would even fire at each other. Since they can't fire, they would play rock, paper, scissors until they could declare a winner. And Darth Vader would simply give up because the rebels hid all their resources away in their galaxy fund and built massive Military Centers that were hidden from view, and then sent one ship at the Death Star and won on xp points!

Sigh. I really miss Planetarion.

Last edited by Gen_Chaos; 7 Nov 2014 at 07:13.
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 07:45   #2
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Re: This is not Pa

Appocomasters design team does seem to of failed on some of the recent additions like mil centre's and cov-op. If only they have the foresight to actually figure out what there changes would do.
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 14:48   #3
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Re: This is not Pa

Indeed the move towards single battleticks took a lot of the enjoyments of fights out of PA.
Bringing back multiple battle ticks would be a easy thing to implent, and perhaps could give a lot more twist to old sucsessfull stats from previous rounds.
Instead of trying to invent the wheel over and over again with new fleet names, new fleet combos, perhaps it would be wise starting to look at the past?
Dont get me wrong, PaX was a good counter to the blocking and def sharing back when it was implented, but now days alliances are limited to only have 60 planets in tag, and with stats like this that can be very exhausting as you are 90% sure to get incs that overdoes your avaible def fleets wich are sent with the beloved lazy function of PA wich is prelaunch.
Redo prelaunch, increase tag limits, and perhaps the alliance dynamics and night dependency will change.
When i first came back to this game in r11 to play with 1up, i didnt even know of the prelaunch function, and i spent hell a lot less time on the night on this game than now.
Not saying the rounds i played in 1up was easy, or that the rounds i was with VisioN and CT was a walk in the park before i came back with FAnG in r45, but every round ive put time into since R45 has seemed like a endless and tireing sprint, and i honestly dont see how a normal functioning person can ever suceed at this game with how it is now.
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 15:00   #4
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Re: This is not Pa

It can never simulate real warfare if you rule a planet.

I like the targetting system.

And xp stands for experience, in real warfare you would like to have experienced leaders, pilots etc.

And afaik mankind have no idea about how real spacewars are fought, so I don't really know how you can claim what is realistic and what isnt.

PS: Star Wars was a movie, not a real spacewar.
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 15:01   #5
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Re: This is not Pa

The only problem is that there is only one way to win planetarion, by score, so what better way to increase score than by increasing your xp gains. Pretty sure only the highest scoring players/alliances/galaxies get rewarded for their efforts.
A change of the reward system so that other methods of play style can be played to win is all thats really needed to stop the massive amounts of MCs being built
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 15:20   #6
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Re: This is not Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen_Chaos View Post
Somehow Pa has become a game of spec trolls calculating "If I build 550 MCs and put all my res in the fund for 600 ticks and go cloaked and sneak in pods that look like one thing but are another and catch the defender using any class of ships but the exact ones that are willing to fire on them, I can get maximum xp score gain." Huh?
Game allows 250 cons. If you put everything on MCs you may not spend on other relevant cons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen_Chaos View Post
What race of people in their right minds would create whole fleets of ships that would refuse to fire on any other ship unless it met certain criteria of class? "Wait, fleet, everybody power down their weapons, those are frigs, and we don't fire at frigs!! Gods help us, they sent frigs at us! So we are all going to just sit here and die. Sorry about that."
Unless you revive TARGET ALL, that was always part of PA game engine.

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Originally Posted by Gen_Chaos View Post
What fleets of ships would travel across the universe to fire once and retreat home? "I know the battle just started, but we are only allowed to fire once, guys, so put your rockets and charges away and go home! Do it!"
It is certainly easier to solve the combat in one loop of calculations, but PA team could make the SAME RESULT changing the stats and allowing several rounds of combat, after all in one hour of combat a ship will probably fight more than once. So the suggestion would be to change the game engine to reflect what would happen in an actual combat but bringing the same result of the current engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen_Chaos View Post
And how on earth would it make sense for defending ships of the same class from outside an alliance to travel slower than ships from inside an alliance spanning the same distance, and slower than attacking ships from all different alliances? Not really going to happen in "real" warfare. Superior defense numbers would simply beat attackers, but... not in "Pa", where they can't get there in time because they have a different insignia painted on them. Those insignias must be really non-aerodynamic. Oh wait, no air in space.
That is a game feature which represents the decision and logistics process of sendinf ships in help of another alliance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen_Chaos View Post
How could building 800 Military Centers at your home base possibly provide you with any advantage at the other end of space, and what is an xp point in "real" space warfare? I'm sorry, in 45 or so rounds with xp I still have no idea what real purpose it serves other than to give number crunchers and spec benders a chance to best people who are actually using war tactics. "We may have only landed 12 ships on this massive planet but we were so brave the universe is going to give us the win and all our enemies will lose."
The benefit of XP is to reward hard roids and give them a different weight from farmed roids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen_Chaos View Post
I can see xp playing a small role in encouraging players not to be Bob the Builders, but this has gone way past all sanity and purpose in that regard.
The XP planets are not having an easy life like last round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen_Chaos View Post
Will it ever be possible to move this game back into a scenario that resembles intelligent beings fighting each other
Shifting to a different reality where that might have happened?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen_Chaos View Post
And my favorite... imagine if Star Wars the movies were fought like Pa? The planet Tatooine would have been safe because the Death Star only fires at corvettes! Massive space battles would occur in which none of the ships would even fire at each other. Since they can't fire, they would play rock, paper, scissors until they could declare a winner. And Darth Vader would simply give up because the rebels hid all their resources away in their galaxy fund and built massive Military Centers that were hidden from view, and then sent one ship at the Death Star and won on xp points!
That would demand a complete change in combat. Something similar to games like travian have, different efficiencies when attacking and defending and toward different classes of ships.
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 15:48   #7
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Re: This is not Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
It can never simulate real warfare if you rule a planet.

I like the targetting system.

And xp stands for experience, in real warfare you would like to have experienced leaders, pilots etc.

And afaik mankind have no idea about how real spacewars are fought, so I don't really know how you can claim what is realistic and what isnt.

PS: Star Wars was a movie, not a real spacewar.
Never the less the pilots cant be experinced if they are dead.
If crashing fleet for XP should reward more score, atleast the planet rulers should be deducted score for doing this over and over as the experince dosnt seem to work out how to not kill Your planets.
The Whole idea of planetarion comes from Star Wars.
If Lord Of The Rings had been in the cinemas at that time instead of Star Wars, perhaps we would all would been playing something closer to Dawn Of Myth or what ever its called.
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 15:48   #8
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Re: This is not Pa

All I read is you got faked.

lol.

Adapt for a round, jesus its anything but hard.
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 16:15   #9
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Re: This is not Pa

The XP could be associated with the surviving ships in combat as long as they stay alive.
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 18:22   #10
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Re: This is not Pa

I think the play for xp option was put in for players that cannot affort to wake up at night or in general spend to much time to look after your planet because of real life. If you now say, yeah if they dont have time to play for real, than they shouldnt play at all. And that is a big problem I guess, because then even less player would play, maybe 300-400 and after the first player noticed they dont have enough time to really be successful, they would probably quit also. Tbh if there wasn't the play for XP option like it is today I wouldn't even play, because I just dont have that much time and I bet many others agree, that PA is very time consuming if played seriously. Also on the other hand I would also prefer the old style Planetarion, IF it would be possible to save the time and energy put into your planet (i.e. built ships built constructions, etc.) by not having your complete planete killed, when you just dont find the time to login for one day. Btw: Please remove Cov ops.. soo stupid. Another question: Is anyone of the admins actually reading this forum? Or have they given up and just let the server run, without interest to change anything at the game in the future?
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 19:42   #11
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Re: This is not Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I think the play for xp option was put in for players that cannot affort to wake up at night or in general spend to much time to look after your planet because of real life. If you now say, yeah if they dont have time to play for real, than they shouldnt play at all. And that is a big problem I guess, because then even less player would play, maybe 300-400 and after the first player noticed they dont have enough time to really be successful, they would probably quit also. Tbh if there wasn't the play for XP option like it is today I wouldn't even play, because I just dont have that much time and I bet many others agree, that PA is very time consuming if played seriously. Also on the other hand I would also prefer the old style Planetarion, IF it would be possible to save the time and energy put into your planet (i.e. built ships built constructions, etc.) by not having your complete planete killed, when you just dont find the time to login for one day. Btw: Please remove Cov ops.. soo stupid. Another question: Is anyone of the admins actually reading this forum? Or have they given up and just let the server run, without interest to change anything at the game in the future?
If you belive that XP was put into the game because they wahted half arsed players to do good, you are far from the truth im afraid.
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 20:26   #12
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Re: This is not Pa

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If you belive that XP was put into the game because they wahted half arsed players to do good, you are far from the truth im afraid.
XP was put into the game to diversify the way the game could be played, and still rank well through a different style of play. Different does NOT necessarily mean half arsed. I think for the first time in almost 50 rounds the balance between Value play (oldskool PA) and XP play is finally at a level where the two playstyles can really compete. So one could say it took 49 rounds to fully develop the XP feature of the game, which seems to be about the time any feature needs to be properly developed so i guess props to the PA team.
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Unread 7 Nov 2014, 20:59   #13
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Re: This is not Pa

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If you belive that XP was put into the game because they wahted half arsed players to do good, you are far from the truth im afraid.
Nah I dont think that was the intention. I think that people need some kind of motivation to play anything, and in most cases it is that its fun and/or they can compete and compare with other players around the world. But with only vallue play style, the guys that dont have much time, cant really play along, they will just loose all their/roids ships at one day they cant login due to rl, and that is very frutrating. I really think it was put into the game to keep 2 different kind of people attracted to the game..
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