[Discuss] Covert-Op Addition - Treason

[NitinA]

An addition to the covert op research branch.

Basic Agent Training - This is the initial research that you start the game with. It allows you to hamper technology research for others.
Underground Network Charting - 12 Ticks of research, lets you train your agents to hack into covert-ops databases to reveal contact networks.
Portable Earthquake Generators - 16 Ticks of research, lets you train your Agents to plant small earthquake generators on asteroids, destroying them in the process.
Warp Core Sabotage - 24 Ticks of research, lets you train your Agents to sabotage ships located in an enemy base.
Portable EMP emitters - 32 Ticks of research, let you train your Agents to use the Portable EMP emitter to destroy Amplifiers and Reflectors.
Bank-System Hacking - 48 Ticks of research, lets you train your Agents to hack into central banking systems of a target and steal resources.
Structural Integrity - 64 Ticks of research, lets you train your Agents to take out enemy structures using explosives.
Treason - 72 Ticks of research, lets you train your Agents to convince enemy forces to join your side.

Treason is basically that : you get the ships of the person you covert op. It's like Zik stealing, but can be used by anyone. That's right Ter/Cath/Xan will have a small ability to steal ships. Not many, but some. A methodology would have to be figured out on how many/what kind were taken from the planet, but it would have intresting effects on the game to see

I was thinking about 15-20 fi/co, 5-10 de/fr, or 2-3 cr/bs per covert op. I'd prefer if the class of ship stolen was random. It would, in my opinion, be intresting to see other races with other race ships, if people choose to do the covert op research route, perhaps making them more benificial and used within the game.

Ideas?

-NitinA

[ph8]

It could also require an empty fleet slot with no ships in so that the ships have to return eta 9 to your planet - last ditch defence attempts!

You shouldn't be able to steal ships from outgoing fleets (at the victim's planet) either methinks but it sounds workable indeed exciting.

It would definitely make combat far more interesting - it's freaky with just ziks having other ships - it would definitely be worth giving a go in beta or speedround before moving into the main game

Agree with me people!

ph8

[Stals]

no idea what it says.. too lazy to read, but I always agree with you Nitn

[hellsmurf]

hum cov ops suxx

and what the use... u need more than 20 sents so that u can use em...( I know u can often do it...)

in my opinion cov ops should be removed... this isnt pa... cov ops are something else

[TheRat]

For the love of god - zik stealing is bad enough :/

[Banned]

This has been declined already.

[Kal]

ah but it was declined becuase real stealing was coming...

i like the name of this covert op at least

[Makhil]

Treason could take different forms :
- The general of your alpha fleet has deserted, fleet can't be launched this tick or prelaunch is canceled (lot of potential, like killing a home fleet put on prelaunch for the night)

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Kal

ah but it was declined becuase real stealing was coming...

i like the name of this covert op at least

[Sun_Tzu]

I'll agree with Kal, the only thing I like about this is the name ;/

Other than that, any comment that has to do with cov-op being totally idiotic also gets my full support :P

[Nahoj]

I think treason is a good idea, I think more races being able to steal (only on a smaller scale though, since that is the Ziks main weapon) could be interesting, probably the same formula that decides warp core sabotage could work here. However I also like the Idea of a way to cov op prelaunches I think that could be very useful.

[Ultimate Newbie]

When i look at proposals like this, i try and think of what effect it will have, whom these effects will benefit/hurt, whether this will promote or discourage stagation etc.

This proposal - whilst clever - i think is stuck between being too powerful or not powerful enough. Thus, it will either not be used, or (ab)used too often, with no real happy medium. Tbh, i think this applies to covert ops in general atm - not just this particular type - but i think you understand what i mean.

Also, by not being able to choose what class you wish to steal, you could have a successful op against a xan (for example) and manage to steal x amount of his DE. Which is fine, unless he has no DE to steal. Furthermore, by not being able to choose which class, you might end up having Battleships in your fleet when the rest of your fleet is FI/CO - which is totally useless and will add to the under-use of this idea.

So, i ask, what is the point? If you wanted to steal stuff, go zik. if you wanted to do well, go xan so you can own ziks . it makes sense .

[Neferti]

Could you steal stealing ships? That could complicate matters.

[NitinA]

Originally Posted by Neferti

Could you steal stealing ships? That could complicate matters.

Yes, you could. Would have intresting results, wouldn't it? But with the corallary added upon by ph8 of having a free fleet slot for this covert-op, would highly restrict abuse (as you could covert op only once ever 7-13 ticks (depending on what ships you steal & eta research done).

The covert op would give Xan/Cath/Ter the ability to steal, on a very small scale, as you could only commit treason ever ___ ticks. Even then the amount of ships you'd steal would be small--not to mention if you got stealing ships via treason, the amount of them you'd have would be minor. If you used the tratitorous stealing ships to steal more ships, you could (esentially) be almost like a Zik, though the time needed to build up a sufficient stealing fleet via the covert op & using the tratiorous stealing ships would be exponentially longer than a standard round. In practice of a real round, this would make this covert op more frequent towards the end of a round.

For those of you who find little value in covert ops, this would increase the value of covert ops. Don't down the idea because you find covert ops idea, as that's a completely different dicussion. Perhaps, too, this would make people invest more in security centers.

Ultimate Newbie : I don't find the idea to be too powerful, or not powerful enough, but rather just powerful enough to make a difference, and would create a bit of more fun within Planetarion.

-NitinA

[Ultimate Newbie]

I was talking to Nitina on IRC about this just a moment ago and i/we came up with this alteration to the suggestion:

From x amount of ships that could be stolen, i'd like to see a sliding scale of a %age of fleet being captured (with a maximum value of ~2%). Think that this is too powerful? Nitina did as well ([11:25] <NitinA> a % of someone's fleet would be *too* powerful).

This alteration would benefit especially small players targeting the highest value players - though due to a sliding scale it would be useful for players up to about the middle of the playing universe.

[11:26] <NitinA> 2% of someone's fleet could be huge considering the #1 player
[11:26] <Sovereign> true, but you see - that's the point
[11:27] <Sovereign> top players have redicuously high security already
[11:27] <Sovereign> plus, its a the end of a branch that is mostly useless
[11:27] <Sovereign> and, with a sliding scale, those who will benefit the most will be the smallest players
[11:27] <Sovereign> so tbh, i think it would balance itself out
[11:27] <NitinA> Yeah, I think so as well
[11:27] <Sovereign> as the occurage of it actually working is low
[11:28] <Sovereign> but if it does, then it would own
[11:28] <NitinA>
[11:28] <Sovereign> which is think is a good compromise

So, what do you think?

Edit: it has the advantage of the capability of this covert op maintaining its significance throughout the round, as opposed to a fixed value that towards the end of the round is so close to pittance its not funny, and at the beginning of the round when its so supermassive that 1 success can make or break somone's round. Ie, this alteration is sustainable in the long term too .

[Neferti]

Well the first thing that comes to mind is that it's not actually the top player who usually has the biggest fleet. Certainly at ths stage... it's very possible to be top yet still have a tiny fleet... so rather than detract from the top players, it would just detract from the high value players. On the other hand, high value players should like that, as lower value = more xp when roiding

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Neferti

Well the first thing that comes to mind is that it's not actually the top player who usually has the biggest fleet. Certainly at ths stage... it's very possible to be top yet still have a tiny fleet... so rather than detract from the top players, it would just detract from the high value players. On the other hand, high value players should like that, as lower value = more xp when roiding

Whilst that is true, the higher value planets also have the greatest potential to gain score, whereas the high score/low value planets have already expended their potential - you need to be able to cap roids to get score .

[MysticYoshi]

An op to do a fleet 'scan' on others would be nice. Not having universal fleet scans is perhaps the lamest thing I've seen happen to PA in the last few rounds

PS.
I think there would have to be some size consideration with fleet stealing.
In utopia it's very difficult to do ops on people much larger or smaller than you. So it stops tiny people potentially making life very difficult for larger players.
Blatently if you were able to steal 1-2% of anyones fleet then the top 10 players would receive continous ops regardless of their security. Bring in a size factor and only people of a similiar size could do it.
But then I doubt anyone would be bothered enough to implement it, heh.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by MysticYoshi

An op to do a fleet 'scan' on others would be nice. Not having universal fleet scans is perhaps the lamest thing I've seen happen to PA in the last few rounds

err mate, fleet scans exist already - though you cant fleet scan Xans you can bet on what the incoming is .

I think there would have to be some size consideration with fleet stealing.
In utopia it's very difficult to do ops on people much larger or smaller than you. So it stops tiny people potentially making life very difficult for larger players.
Blatently if you were able to steal 1-2% of anyones fleet then the top 10 players would receive continous ops regardless of their security. Bring in a size factor and only people of a similiar size could do it.
But then I doubt anyone would be bothered enough to implement it, heh.

I dont know about utopia, but in planetarion it is possible for you to be immune from covert ops. It required 16.1% of your structures as Security Centres and 2nd Engineering priority, or some 12% of structures and 1st Engineering priority.

This would result in everyone who attempts to steal ships from immune planets will fail - and thus the effect on the large value planets would only be a continuous stream of news events and some opportunity costs.

I dont think PA needs such limitation due to the possibility of immunity.

[E-Choke]

I like it a lot

Another one I would like it :
- Stalling : this means your eta would be 1 higher on al outgoing fleets.
- Power blackout : Like preventing a player from loging in for like 10 minutes orso, or having a cleared overview/message/galstatus screen

[Vapula]

Stalling could be nice.
Power black out is certainly too powerful !!!

[E-Choke]

Just make it 2/3 mins then, combined with the normal way of alertness, people won't be out long.

This could prevent those people from just loging in 1 minute before arrival of fleets to recall

[kamikaze69]

I like the idea of treason, and I like the idea of stalling, just come up with a better name that stalling, like maybe Jumpgate Sabotage/Tampering???

However I definately agree with Vapula, Power blackout is FAR too powerful, even at 2-3 mins.

[MysticYoshi]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

err mate, fleet scans exist already - though you cant fleet scan Xans you can bet on what the incoming is .

I was refering to the fact that you can only fleet scan those attacking or defending you (hence the word universal)

I dont know about utopia, but in planetarion it is possible for you to be immune from covert ops. It required 16.1% of your structures as Security Centres and 2nd Engineering priority, or some 12% of structures and 1st Engineering priority.

This would result in everyone who attempts to steal ships from immune planets will fail - and thus the effect on the large value planets would only be a continuous stream of news events and some opportunity costs.

I dont think PA needs such limitation due to the possibility of immunity.

That makes it all ok then. All top players need to do is have maximum security, which doesn't limit the flexibility or choice of the way a player plays at all in the top level. Makes the game really fun that does.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by MysticYoshi

That makes it all ok then. All top players need to do is have maximum security, which doesn't limit the flexibility or choice of the way a player plays at all in the top level. Makes the game really fun that does.

Well, and the game doesnt restrict player's options as it stands? 3 fleets spring to mind, not being able to attack your galaxy, alliance. JGP only on planets you've launched against, Fleet scans only scanning your incoming (as you mentioned - oh, an i see where you are coming from etc). Just a couple of examples of inherent restrictions that are already imposed on players.

Furthermore, i would hazard a guess that most 'top players' would already have at least some degree of focus on security - so there isnt much loss at all.

Finally, players are not forced to go with high security - just that their ships will start to get stolen every now and again (untill they get a reputation for being a free source of ships) when they will be attacked alot. The player has the choice of whether to build more mines/finance centres to get more cash to make up for this loss, or securtiy to prevent the loss from occuring. It depends on the preferences of the individual players - just like alot of trade offs are made in other areas of the game as it stands now.

[MysticYoshi]

Yeah I guess so, people can choose how to deal with it as they wish. I do hope something like a fleet steal isn't brought in anyway, it would make life difficult for a number of top players I imagine and restrict them to having high security all the time

[Goafer LX]

i like it, u should be abl;e to steal more ships from bigger targets tho

[MysticYoshi]

Oh yes, wouldn't that make the game fair

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by MysticYoshi

Oh yes, wouldn't that make the game fair

Well, that would depend on whether he was talking about more as in:

a greater Nominal amount; ie you can capture 100 vsh more from a larger planet (though this can be regressive).
a proportional amount; ie you can capture up to 2% of their fleet (and he meant increasing the %age to cap more), or
a progressive amount; ie the larger a planet becomes, the more they are able to afford the losses of ships and thus the rate at which they loose ships increases.

all of these can be fair in some sense, and thus obviously unfair in another. It depends on perspective - which is why 'fair' isnt a good term to use imo.

[SpookyVince]

Another idea would be that a covert op would allow to steal the plans to foreign ships. Like "Industrial Spying" or something: send agents, with a fairly low chance of success, who will try to steal plans of enemy ships. You'd then get the ability to build those ships yourself! (maybe at a much higher cost?)

[frostbeule]

What i would prefear is that you could send some agents out, they sneak in the science laboratory and make copys of every technology that is new to them (means your planet doesnt have at that point).
This way you could complete your research tree with covopping only if you are lucky.

[Stoom]

this puts the C in Covert Ops!

errr... well I like it

[furball]

SpookyVince, you seem to have bumped this thread for no reason other than to re-make the point you did here.

It's a very bad idea to allow Ziks to build any ship because then they could build unstoppable fleets. This would give too much power to that race.

[Lοki]

stealing blue prints would be a nice cov op I think, if highly inefficient and limited to 3 ship kinds. Or perhaps even 1 ship kind.

It would add entire new strategies to the game