[Discuss] Allow freebies to research

[Banned]

04:29:29 <@zzhou> with free account u should be able to do the researches
04:29:37 <@zzhou> but they are inactive
04:29:46 <@zzhou> then when u upgrade
04:29:47 <@zzhou> they work
04:30:01 <@zzhou> and when you are free
04:30:04 <@zzhou> the researches take longer
04:30:10 <@zzhou> so the ones who upgrade still have an advantage

He has a point you know.

[Entium]

What?

Do you want to say that researches for free accounts should take longer or naturally do take longer because owners of free accounts are less active?

[kamikaze69]

I think that he is saying that FREE accounts should be able to research the entire research system instead of being capped as certain stages, like only being able to research warpgate.

Instead, give them access to all research, just make it longer for them to research it.

Is that what you were meaning?

[Makhil]

he's saying free accounts should be able to research all the tech tree, the 'now forbidden' researches would take longer and would be activated only when you pay (upgrade) your account.
So:
- the earlier you pay, the better
- when you do pay, you don't lose too much time to do the researches (as some of them would be ready to use)

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Makhil

he's saying free accounts should be able to research all the tech tree, the 'now forbidden' researches would take longer and would be activated only when you pay (upgrade) your account.
So:
- the earlier you pay, the better
- when you do pay, you don't lose too much time to do the researches (as some of them would be ready to use)

Yes. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Squishy]

nice idea

so you reserch them but get no benifit till u upgrade. This should ensure people upgrade sooner

[Legator]

i agree with jester, the limitations for freebies are to heavy.

in my opinion just make it longer (or maybe they cant research the last thing on the tree).


freebies need more motivation to play further - and that means to pay.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Why not just double* the research time on the researchs past the current cap limit?




*or treble**




**or whatever

[NitinA]

sniborp : I think double or triple the time is a bit too harsh, perhaps 110% - 125% of the time it would take if you had upgraded, once you pass the current restricted freebie tech tree, given they only get activated after the account is upgraded.

-NitinA

[Cannon_Fodder]

ofc it would be harsh if they were activated once upgraded, but what if they were active when the research completed, just it took much longer for freebies to research?

[Goafer LX]

u would have to make it well worth upgrading tho, otherwise no one would pay
you'd have to do like... double research time

[hellsmurf]

well just close the cov op tree pls
so no multies **** up pa dudes with cheap freeby accounts :-)

and in first 72 ticks no penalty maybe

[zzhou]

well just close the cov op tree pls
so no multies **** up pa dudes with cheap freeby accounts :-)

and in first 72 ticks no penalty maybe

This wouldnt happen, because free accounts wouldnt actually HAVE the ability to do the covert ops, they can research them but UNTIL they pay, they cannot use the researches.

u would have to make it well worth upgrading tho, otherwise no one would pay
you'd have to do like... double research time

No. People would still pay, because if they dont pay, although they can still complete the research they CANNOT make use of the researches until they pay

sniborp : I think double or triple the time is a bit too harsh, perhaps 110% - 125% of the time it would take if you had upgraded, once you pass the current restricted freebie tech tree, given they only get activated after the account is upgraded.

Yes!

I think some of you are missing the point of what I said, Am I really that hard to understand? Basically

1. The same limitations are imposed on free accounts (300 roids, ETA -2, 20 buildings, etc etc).
2. Let free accounts do as many researches they want to, the full tech tree, but any researches he completes beyond his limitations are inactive.
3. All researches take slightly longer 110-120% longer than paid accounts (incentive to pay earlier)
4. If the user decides to pay, those researches which were previously incative, now become active
5. This means the user is less disadvantaged by paying later

eg. Someone joins the game 100 ticks late, decides to have a quiet round, goes out with his eta 11 fleets and gets to 1000 roids, decides its a good time to pay since he can only mine 300 roids.

With the current system, it takes him time to be able to mine 1000 roids, and get ETA -4
With the system proposed, when he decides to upgrade, he may have already ETA -3, and 750 roids researched, however they are inactive until he pays.

get the idea?

[furssie]

Ill throw the given: How are we be able to expand the playerbase if freebies' limitations are this harsh.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by zzhou

get the idea?

I believe that zzhou's proposal is actually beneficial in many respects as it does not severly disadvantage the player who starts free, then pays to continue playing - indeed it is this type of person that we should be encouraging - and i think that this proposal goes a long way to make this happen.

If my reputation popup thingy worked, i'd give you some rep mate. Truely excellent .

[mist]

why make the research take longer? not being able to use them seems a fairly substantial penalty in itself. if you make it so that people are still lagged behind you both seem to defeat the object of the excercise and make people less likely to pay...

-mist

[NitinA]

Originally Posted by mist

why make the research take longer? not being able to use them seems a fairly substantial penalty in itself. if you make it so that people are still lagged behind you both seem to defeat the object of the excercise and make people less likely to pay...

-mist

I had a nice reply typed out but it didn't post the data. Anyway the jist of the idea is that paying earlier is more healthy for the universe. The more roids being mined, the more ships being created, ect. all help the universe's size grow, and the possible implications of these battles on the community aspect (alliances, galaxies, ect.). Basically, if there's more things happening, more being created, and more to possibly steal from, it's healthier for the game. Hence paying earlier in the game should be more encouraged than the normal length of the research.

-NitinA

[mist]

in that case, don't let them research the technologies, then they're even more likely to pay.

either you work on the premise that limiting someone's advancement will make them pay, in which case allowing them to do them at all is silly - if they meet a brick wall they're likely to pay there and then or you work on the premise that if you let people keep going then they're more likely to pay in which case why hinder them?

i suspect there's a balance between the more people upgrading that you'd hopefully get from allowing the research to continue and the fact that those who do upgrade would do it sooner. from a player's pov i don't think it makes that much difference really, other than possibly affecting the amount of players in the next round. from a jolt pov i think they'd rather have more people sign up than have the people sign up sooner.

-mist

[Appocomaster]

I agree that they should be able to research the techs, just not use them. I know a galaxy mate or two of mine upgraded recently and then had to spend getting their ETA lower and roid techs and stuff, whereas they had lots of time to have done it previously if things like this were allowed.
I'd also like to see the resource bonus increased (if it hasn't already) onto a more tick by tick basis, something like:
5k for ticks 1-100, then: 5k + 750*(tick number - 100) (of each resource).
This would mean free accounts get ~675k of each resource by tick 1000, which tbh isn't that much, but would be an incentive to upgrade.

[NitinA]

Originally Posted by mist

in that case, don't let them research the technologies, then they're even more likely to pay.

No, that's wrong. The freebie account is meant to be a sample before you purchase the product, and not letting them research anything isn't really accomplishing anything at all. Allowing them to keep researching, and once they're done sampling, they purchase and don't have a major disadvantage (having to do all the researchs they coudlave been doing ineffectivly) but allowing them to "activate" those researchs would be very rewarding to the freshly paid players.

Not allowing them to research at all defeats the purpose of a sample/free account to try the game with.

Originally Posted by mist

either you work on the premise that limiting someone's advancement will make them pay, in which case allowing them to do them at all is silly - if they meet a brick wall they're likely to pay there and then or you work on the premise that if you let people keep going then they're more likely to pay in which case why hinder them?

The premise should be that free accounts are meant to be a sample before upgrading to the full (paid) account. By allowing them to continue researching the technologies, you "taunt" them with things they can have but don't because they are only sampling. You also make someone more likely to upgrade an account later on (say 1/2 way through the round) because he has the technology researchs already complete and realizes he likes the game.

For instance, if a player plays r12 and tick 1000 he says "Wow, I'm spending more and more time on IRC, helping my alliance, and participating in community events. I really enjoy this game. I think I'm going to upgrade my account." If he upgrades at tick 1000, he's still *way* far behind on the tech tree, and is unable to compete with the rest of the paid universe. If the proposed freebie research was put into effect at tick 1000 when he upgrades, he could *right away* start mining the 573 of his 873 roids. He would also grow in size faster, and have a better round.

A freebie account isn't restricted to any time period of sampling Planetarion (unless you go inactive, which is a completely different matter). So why should we restrict the amount of time they have until they decide they like the game or not by making them hit a brick wall? Why should we also punish those who decide to upgrade later rather than earlier? Having that "catch up" when they upgrade may even help them be more enouraged to play the next round as paid, as opposed to trying to catch up *after* they pay.

Originally Posted by mist

i suspect there's a balance between the more people upgrading that you'd hopefully get from allowing the research to continue and the fact that those who do upgrade would do it sooner. from a player's pov i don't think it makes that much difference really, other than possibly affecting the amount of players in the next round. from a jolt pov i think they'd rather have more people sign up than have the people sign up sooner.

It does make quite a bit of difference in the game. The more roids being mined, the more ships being produced, the more ships involved in combat, the more xp being given out, ect. Even in the meta-game, the more paid players, the more active some get within the community, the more dicussion on the forums/irc, the better 'strategies' there are, the larger possibility of people being involved with the meta-game.

From the Jolt POV, I think they would have people sign up sooner. But why stop there when you can enoucrgae people who sign up sooner when they hit that brick wall to sign up, and continue recruiting from that pool of freebie accounts later on in the round when those people choose to upgrade.

-NitinA

[mist]

i'm probably missing something, but throughout your post, i only see reasons not to make it slower... which is what i was arguing anyway

-mist

[zzhou]

why make the research take longer? not being able to use them seems a fairly substantial penalty in itself. if you make it so that people are still lagged behind you both seem to defeat the object of the excercise and make people less likely to pay...

there must be some difference between paid and unpaid account dont you think? otherwise you would get everyone using free accounts until they had researched 300 roids, 20 constructions, or whatever research they felt limited their planet the most, and choosing at that point wether to upgrade or not

the point is to maintain current limitations on free accounts, without hindering their ability to maintain pace with paid accounts by too much, so when they eventually choose to pay they dont lag behind too much

this way if a planet choose to get paid later on in the round lets say tick 1000, instead of becoming a 'paid account, with much research to do', he basically becomes a 'paid account' since he already had the majority of researches completed, but by paying he activates them

much better for alliances and the universe .. i think

[NitinA]

Originally Posted by mist

i'm probably missing something, but throughout your post, i only see reasons not to make it slower... which is what i was arguing anyway

-mist

You must be (no offense intended, just that I'm arguing for the researchs to take longer). If you wouldn't mind, point me out to the parts which argue for it to be normal legnth--Perhaps different analysis of the same ideas leads us both to different conclusions. I'm stating that I'm for longer research (which encourages earlier payment in the round) but also for the main idea of this post--the freebie research "activation" (which encourages people to upgrader later in the rounds without as much penlty). In other words, I'm arguing for the suggestion to be approved which would encourage earlier payment in the round, but not peanlize those who decide to pay later in a round.

-Nitin

[mist]

Originally Posted by zzhou

there must be some difference between paid and unpaid account dont you think?

yes, yes i do. however, i'd have said that not getting the researches when they're complete was a fairly significant difference.

Originally Posted by nitina

I'm arguing for the suggestion to be approved which would encourage earlier payment in the round, but not peanlize those who decide to pay later in a round.

given that you're suggesting that we allow freebies to research while they shouldn't be able to, i assume that you accept that this is a disadvantage. therefore, it seems logical that if you're a freebie and therefore still don't have access to the research then you're still at a disadvantage. if you later upgrade then you've still been at a disadvantage for the interim and therefore *have* been peanlized. increasing the research time means that freebies will fall even further behind, and therefore will be less likely to upgrade, imo. if your premise for the idea is that they'll see all this stuff that they should be able to use but can't and will therefore upgrade, surely keeping them researching at the same rate will give them more incentive?

Originally Posted by nitina

You also make someone more likely to upgrade an account later on (say 1/2 way through the round) because he has the technology researchs already complete and realizes he likes the game.

if you're wanting them to have completed the researches, why slow them down?

Originally Posted by nitina

If the proposed freebie research was put into effect at tick 1000 when he upgrades, he could *right away* start mining the 573 of his 873 roids. He would also grow in size faster, and have a better round.

i've no idea what the tech tree is like atm, however if you didn't halve his research speed would he be able to mine all those roids? if so wouldn't this be a bigger incentive to upgrade?

Originally Posted by nitina

A freebie account isn't restricted to any time period of sampling Planetarion (unless you go inactive, which is a completely different matter). So why should we restrict the amount of time they have until they decide they like the game or not by making them hit a brick wall? Why should we also punish those who decide to upgrade later rather than earlier? Having that "catch up" when they upgrade may even help them be more enouraged to play the next round as paid, as opposed to trying to catch up *after* they pay.

exactly my argument. if you halve their research speed they *do* have to play catchup.

the only real reason i can see for slowing their research speed is to pacify the "i've paid, why should they get anything" crowd, who'll complain that they're not getting a big enough advantage from having paid from the start.

[Alki]

how would this effect scans such as tech scans? the inactive researches dont appear?

[zzhou]

Originally Posted by nitina
I'm arguing for the suggestion to be approved which would encourage earlier payment in the round, but not peanlize those who decide to pay later in a round.

this one line sums it up

its not a hard concept to grasp, mist i think you've missed the point.

given that you're suggesting that we allow freebies to research while they shouldn't be able to, i assume that you accept that this is a disadvantage.

yes. not being able to research is a disadvantage

therefore, it seems logical that if you're a freebie and therefore still don't have access to the research then you're still at a disadvantage. if you later upgrade then you've still been at a disadvantage for the interim and therefore *have* been peanlized.

yes

increasing the research time means that freebies will fall even further behind, and therefore will be less likely to upgrade, imo.

once again, the difference between paid and free accounts. what is the point of allowing free and paid accounts to research at the same rate , you will have planets upgrading as late as possible before the limitations kick in, and avoiding any negative side effects

if your premise for the idea is that they'll see all this stuff that they should be able to use but can't and will therefore upgrade, surely keeping them researching at
the same rate will give them more incentive?

to encourage free planets to upgrade earlier

if you're wanting them to have completed the researches, why slow them down?

we want them to be less disadvantaged when they DO pay, but not on the same tech level as someone who has paid earlier (this point comes up once agian)

i've no idea what the tech tree is like atm, however if you didn't halve his research speed would he be able to mine all those roids? if so wouldn't this be a bigger incentive to upgrade?

this makes no sense whatsoever

exactly my argument. if you halve their research speed they *do* have to play catchup.

the only real reason i can see for slowing their research speed is to pacify the "i've paid, why should they get anything" crowd, who'll complain that they're not getting a big enough advantage from having paid from the start.

your argument does not relate to the topic being discussed, please rethink.
Free accounts are playing catch up already, this idea is trying to REDUCE the amount of catch up that is required to entice them to upgrade. this idea does not change the way paid accounts operate nor does it affect them

if you actually truly care about what is being said here please reread the thread, in particular my 1st post which outlines the idea in full, and once you understand the idea being presented and only then, reply

[mist]

i understand that the idea doesn't affect the way that paid accounts work. what i'm saying is that i don't see the point of making the free accounts research the latter techs (the ones they're being allowed to research but not use untill they're upgraded) slower. given that this is part of your suggestion, it seems fairly relevant.

[Intruder]

i didnt read all comments, so ignore if was already made: excellent idea, i think that one good way to do that would be that unpaid accounts cant chose research as enginnering priority