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13 Mar 2008, 11:34
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#1
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mmm lambs
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,906
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Purposefully disabling your child
So I just read http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/justic...-200803131049/.
It essentially criticises the government for
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Persons or embryos that are known to have a gene, chromosome or mitochondrion abnormality involving a significant risk that a person with the abnormality will have or develop a serious physical or mental disability, a serious illness or any other serious medical condition must not be preferred to those that are not known to have such an abnormality.
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saying that people should be allowed to choose their embryo if they are fully aware of the consequences.
Now while I would normally be in favour of allowing people to do what they want something about this doesn't sit right with me. In their example it refers to a couple who tried for a deaf child. Maybe I just find it wrong because I imagine being deaf harder than it actually is, but I would never purposefully give my children haemophilia like I have, and I would guess that is far easier to live with.
If they wanted to make themselves deaf then fair enough, but to do it to someone else just feels wrong.
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I drink therefore I am
Last edited by midge5; 13 Mar 2008 at 14:06.
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13 Mar 2008, 12:39
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#2
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Ent|lunch
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 539
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
why in gods name would people wish disabilities on children? Its bad enough forcing religion on them...but this?! It's morally, physically and ethically wrong
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[F-Crew] - You know when you've been [FC]uked
"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results."
"Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile"
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13 Mar 2008, 12:44
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#3
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Bona Fide Jesus Freak
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In the Word of the Lord
Posts: 765
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
It's seems obvious that some people need to have government intervention in their lives. That bill is the right thing to do in my opinion but it also needs to be more defined as to what constitutes an abnormality. The movie Gattica come to mind where we could end up with a society based on your genes instead of heritage and ability.
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Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.
CT R22-20, [1up] R18-16, TGV R15,
The Illuminati - [NoS] - R14-13
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13 Mar 2008, 13:01
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 247
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Quote:
Originally Posted by midge5
I would never purposefully give me children haemophilia like I have
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Ahhh nevermind. I can't even bring myself to typing what i was going to. You, all of you, you got lucky Punks!
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13 Mar 2008, 13:21
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#5
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I ♡ ☠
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 834
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
The choice of embryo is immaterial in my opinion. What matters is if the parents are able to give the child an environment where he or she can enjoy life.
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13 Mar 2008, 13:50
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#6
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Commodore
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,176
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
I feel that it is wrong to inflict needless suffering upon others. As such, abnormal embryos, or embryos with high probabilities to result in abnormal children, should be discouraged. Ultimately, no matter how caring and sharing you as a parent are, your child/ren dont just interact with you. They go to school, they will go out into the workforce and meet strangers socially.
Its cruel to inflict that kind of misery upon someone unnecessarily.
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#Strategy ; #Support - Sovereign
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"The Cake is a Lie."
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13 Mar 2008, 14:17
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Whilst I don't agree with purposely creating disabled children and would seriously question the mental health of anyone wanting to do so, there are some other considerations.
With the development of genetic engineering (admittedly still some years away) there does seem to be a question of what constitutes a mental or physical abnormality.
The BBC article mentions skin colour as bringing disadvantages, if this is true should this be banned as well? On a less, extreme measure, what about ginger people?
It is also possible (although, how likely I don't know) that banning the creation of such embryos will increase discrimination against those who have such abnormalities. I'm thinking particularly with reference to genetic engineering which (in the US, possibly in the UK) will probably be incredibly expensive. Not only will a disability be seen as a physical deformity, it will also be seen as a social one, which could possibly create another barrier to class mobility.
To take the argument to an Orwellian extreme, what about mental disabilities? Will a tendancy towards compassion be considered abnormal and a barrier to the perfect working of the neo-liberal market?
Purposely having a deaf baby is stupid. If both parents were deaf, then maybe there might be more of an argument in favour of it but in this situation, no.
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The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
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13 Mar 2008, 15:25
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#8
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Ent|lunch
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 539
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Purposely having a deaf baby is stupid. If both parents were deaf, then maybe there might be more of an argument in favour of it but in this situation, no.
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im sure 2 deaf parents would no doubt not want their child to have the same restrictions as they did. Same as blind people not wishing it on their own kid. Its just another way for people to cock up an already deteriorating world. File this away under D for deluded. Just like the celebrities adopting foreign children for PR or disabled children because they think its "the right thing to do"
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[F-Crew] - You know when you've been [FC]uked
"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results."
"Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile"
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13 Mar 2008, 19:38
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#9
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
The movie Gattica come to mind where we could end up with a society based on your genes instead of heritage
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hi
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13 Mar 2008, 21:29
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#10
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Purposely having a deaf baby is stupid. If both parents were deaf, then maybe there might be more of an argument in favour of it but in this situation, no.
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No there ****ing won't be. Intentionally creating a disabled child is immoral and wrong. How does having two deaf parents make anything better? It's the child that matters, not the parents' feelings.
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Finally free!
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13 Mar 2008, 21:46
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#11
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No there ****ing won't be. Intentionally creating a disabled child is immoral and wrong. How does having two deaf parents make anything better? It's the child that matters, not the parents' feelings.
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I think that very much depends upon your view of what a child is.
Now I may well think that a child is a cost sink future citizen. An expense worth paying. I may feel inclined to indulge it, more likely indulge it's parents in some tabloid inspired fantasy as long as at the end of it I get a citizen who will work toward the benefit of it's fellow citizens.
But supposing my view is evil? Why not view a child as a product of love. Its fate and ultimate purpose devoid of worry about what the state is. Perhaps fantasise that the child might actually create a new state, or even a new utopia. With such a view words such as 'disabled' have no meaning. Deafness is a perfect example. Do we truly need to hear? And regardless of the answer to that question should we not be asking these questions? Is this whole argument nothing more than a move from our race being the passive victims of evolution toward joining with it?
As gods can tell - I care very very little about this.
Let us avoid sensationalism.
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hi
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13 Mar 2008, 23:06
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#12
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Maybe yahwe is on to something. Take myself, I would love to not hear some of my more annoying pupils!
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<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
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14 Mar 2008, 19:46
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#13
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I think that very much depends upon your view of what a child is.
Now I may well think that a child is a cost sink future citizen. An expense worth paying. I may feel inclined to indulge it, more likely indulge it's parents in some tabloid inspired fantasy as long as at the end of it I get a citizen who will work toward the benefit of it's fellow citizens.
But supposing my view is evil? Why not view a child as a product of love. Its fate and ultimate purpose devoid of worry about what the state is. Perhaps fantasise that the child might actually create a new state, or even a new utopia. With such a view words such as 'disabled' have no meaning. Deafness is a perfect example. Do we truly need to hear? And regardless of the answer to that question should we not be asking these questions? Is this whole argument nothing more than a move from our race being the passive victims of evolution toward joining with it?
As gods can tell - I care very very little about this.
Let us avoid sensationalism.
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No, you're wrong.
A child may be the creation of other human beings but that doesn't mean that those human beings should have complete control over its existence. If they mistreat that child, the child is taken away from them as they are unfit parents. That child has a right not to be mistreated.
A simple question for you and ASG to answer:
Is it acceptable for parents (or, in fact, anyone) to intentionally deafen their child?
If it's not acceptable to do it while that child is alive, why is it ok to design them to be deaf?
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Finally free!
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14 Mar 2008, 20:17
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 87
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
This is a rather shocking topic. Most parents are of mind to want the best for their children, to make life easier than it was for them... How wanting a deaf child meets that goal I don't know.
In regards to the two deaf parents wanting a deaf child scenario, I think that is also ridiculous... they should want the same as any other parent, and even though they know first hand how 'possible' it is to live on whilst deaf i do not understand how they would want a deaf child.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yahwe
I think that very much depends upon your view of what a child is.
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Regardless how you view or define your child, he/she is still a human being protected by human rights... like in the news recently of a 15 year old raped and murdered, the mother is taken to court for negligence, reason being she did not create a safe environment for her daughter.. looking at it this way, how is making your child born deaf a safe enviroment, kids need a lot of attention and looking after, deaf kids need a hell of a lot more, they cannot hear and get scared of loud noises (which incidentally may be a car or something else equally as devastating to a humans life)
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14 Mar 2008, 20:45
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#15
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Bona Fide Jesus Freak
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In the Word of the Lord
Posts: 765
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Thanks to technology like the Cochlear implant a child born deaf by his or her parents hand could later choose to hear. How's that for a rebelious teen or young adult?
__________________
Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.
CT R22-20, [1up] R18-16, TGV R15,
The Illuminati - [NoS] - R14-13
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15 Mar 2008, 11:23
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No there ****ing won't be. Intentionally creating a disabled child is immoral and wrong. How does having two deaf parents make anything better? It's the child that matters, not the parents' feelings.
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It could be argued that a deaf child would form a closer bond with his/her parents. This bond over the common factor of being deaf may create a more stable loving environment for the child who would grow up to be a happier, more well-adjusted member of society.
On the other hand, a child who can hear but has deaf parents may feel resentful for their disability and possibly having to do things for them. It may also become an area for constant bullying, which would make the child more resentful of his parents, leading the child to be miserable and socially mal-adjusted.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
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15 Mar 2008, 11:32
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#17
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No, you're wrong.
A child may be the creation of other human beings but that doesn't mean that those human beings should have complete control over its existence. If they mistreat that child, the child is taken away from them as they are unfit parents. That child has a right not to be mistreated.
A simple question for you and ASG to answer:
Is it acceptable for parents (or, in fact, anyone) to intentionally deafen their child?
If it's not acceptable to do it while that child is alive, why is it ok to design them to be deaf?
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a) I can not be 'wrong' as I was not proposing an argument. I was setting out two contradictory points and asking you to not sensationalise and to start thinking.
b) the whole point is that the question is not simple so stop trying to believe it is.
:sigh:
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hi
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15 Mar 2008, 16:28
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#18
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Quote:
Originally Posted by [FC]Imperial
i do not understand
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__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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17 Mar 2008, 10:39
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#19
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Ent|lunch
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 539
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Re: Purposefully disabling your child
Quote:
Originally Posted by [FC]Imperial
Regardless how you view or define your child, he/she is still a human being protected by human rights... like in the news recently of a 15 year old raped and murdered, the mother is taken to court for negligence, reason being she did not create a safe environment for her daughter.. looking at it this way, how is making your child born deaf a safe enviroment, kids need a lot of attention and looking after, deaf kids need a hell of a lot more, they cannot hear and get scared of loud noises (which incidentally may be a car or something else equally as devastating to a humans life)
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as much as it pains me to do so i have to agree. after Caring for disabled children for 6 years i know how hard it is to live as they do. They try hard but the parents don't have much say in the day to day activities as they grow up.. They're left with carers or voluntary groups because the parents can't cope.
If they're so interested in blindness why don't they blind themselves or deafen themselves. And when they refuse, ask them why. because lets face it, if they won't go through the same thing as they want their child to go through, then it can't be that good.
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[F-Crew] - You know when you've been [FC]uked
"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results."
"Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile"
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