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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 00:21   #1
galla
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Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Get rid of Cov Ops!

Why? They add nothing to the game. They allow people who do not wish to fully participate in the game to have an impact on the enjoyment of those who do. The theory may be fine but in practice cov ops are used by players with only two motives, to aid other players ( no better than farming ), or to simply be an annoyance. Either way they add nothing to the game and I propose they are removed from the code.
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 03:47   #2
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

idd. remove cov op.

always said it should be removed
no point o have it.
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 09:07   #3
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Pf, bite me.
I find scanning, prelaunch and jgp annoying.
Remove it, only cowards use it!
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 10:40   #4
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allfather
Pf, bite me.
I find scanning, prelaunch and jgp annoying.
Remove it, only cowards use it!
if cov ops are removed whats the fun of semi-playing?
prelaunch is lame, but oh so usefull for those of us that does not really care.
jgp - I'd prefer news to show all and not be ticks behind. Make it show real time, and bring back the proper mil scan like it was in the old days :/
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 11:10   #5
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Sarcasm ela, sarcasm.

I'm going to say the same thing here as I've said in the other x threads that cried about cov ops: if you don't want to be hit, be immune. It's not hard, so stop whining.
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 12:22   #6
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Hey galla long time no see
Quote:
Originally Posted by galla
Cov Ops!
They add nothing to the game. They allow people who do not wish to fully participate in the game to have an impact on the enjoyment of those who do.
Add nothing to the game?
Science Hacking - Can mean the difference between an attacker having JGP or AU scan which is vital early in the game
Charting - Stops those annoying covoppers
Sabotage - Shows the ships at home and therefor determes if you can land or not
Blackout - Makes unscannable planets scannable or almost unscannable planets fully unscannable.
Resource Hacking - THE mayor income source for a lot of scanners. also makes people pay a price for stockpiling*
Havoc - destroying a single factory can have huge impacts on a target being able to finish his prod or not

Obviously all cov ops (expect prehaps the steal thingy which would be useless without cov ops) add significant (although very specific) value to the game.
Quote:
The theory may be fine but in practice cov ops are used by players with only two motives, to aid other players ( no better than farming )
What are scanners then aid in other peoples quest? To want to ban Cov Ops for this reason is to want to ban scanners.
Quote:
or to simply be an annoyance.
A lot of planets only exist to be an annoyance but because they do it with suicide ships it doesnt matter?

If anything i think the fact you can immunilise yourself so easily (as a scanner) should be changed. People have to pay a big price to not be cov opped just like they pay a big price if they want to go for dists

* the price of stockpiling is either:
Spending population and construction slots to achieve immunity
Having to decide early what ships you build without having them by putting them in slow prod
Having your stockpile stolen
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 12:52   #7
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Why should you get to choose how other people play the game?
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 13:04   #8
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Why should you get to choose how other people play the game?
Are you arguing for this suggestion (cov oppers make other people build SCs, so they influence other people's way of playing the game) or against it (removing cov ops reduces people's choices)?
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 14:25   #9
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Cov ops is a tough subject to tackle with any degree of sanity.

When it was added as a feature of the game the intention was for it to be another weapon in the arsenal of your bog standard average Jo. It was not intended to be taken to the extreme that some players have taken it.

But neither was scanning, and that is tolerated. At least you can make yourself immune to cov oppers though, 20 odd security centres is not to steep a price to pay.

However, i'd love to see a staristic as to how many planets that ...'are almost support planets'... are actually paid account. If the actions of free accounts are effecting and influencing a paid planets round, then the logistics are wrong.

Maybe a good middle ground would be to to introduce a set of restrictions that can force ppl to use amps and cov op actions in the way they were intended to be used.

-----

For example

At the start of the round every planet is 'given' 20 covert operation actions for the duration of the round.

Every planet is limited to being able to build 50 amps max. And 51 distorters max.

-----

These would be artificial limitations. If a planet wants to exceed these limitations they should have to pay for it. You could call it a permium account. Costs could be £15 to upgrade to a premium account. You can then build however many dists or amps you want to, and have unlimited cover operation actions.

Disclaimer - I made that up on the fly. I do not claim the numbers submitted are infallable so dont be a whoppa and flame. If you like the 'intention of the idea' or not offer constructive replies only plz.
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 14:34   #10
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Right.

Free planets dont get goverment and wont get the 30% research bonus or the 15% stealth bonus which is so vital for cov op planets. They are already limited. because of these restrictions i can almost guarentee you that all of the top20 planets in cov ops are paid. if you get cov opped by a free planet you deserve it.

Also Restrictions are almost always a bad thing in PA
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 14:50   #11
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
When it was added as a feature of the game the intention was for it to be another weapon in the arsenal of your bog standard average Jo. It was not intended to be taken to the extreme that some players have taken it.
Says who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
For example

At the start of the round every planet is 'given' 20 covert operation actions for the duration of the round.

Every planet is limited to being able to build 50 amps max. And 51 distorters max.

-----

These would be artificial limitations. If a planet wants to exceed these limitations they should have to pay for it. You could call it a permium account. Costs could be £15 to upgrade to a premium account. You can then build however many dists or amps you want to, and have unlimited cover operation actions.

Disclaimer - I made that up on the fly. I do not claim the numbers submitted are infallable so dont be a whoppa and flame. If you like the 'intention of the idea' or not offer constructive replies only plz.
I agree with Rikard, artificial restrictions are almost always bad.

Besides, didn't you just say
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
20 odd security centres is not to steep a price to pay.
?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 15:09   #12
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

First of all im assuming intention yes, maybe i shouldnt but if i put my self in the creators shoes I wouldnt add a feature that makes a planet exclusively a or exclusively b. I add features that are intended for your run of the mill customer to make the game more expansive and interesting for him, so he will pay me money.

Secondly. Rikard maybe you right u sound like u know what ur on about, but would making a premium account like detailed be valid? I know limitations are bad, but if (made up numbers) the actions of say 20 cov oppers make 50 ppl a round quit whats the worse evil. I'd rather lose 20 cov oppers per round than 50 'genuine' players.


Edit - and yeah mz personally, I dont think building sec centres is too steep a price to pay. But im trying to see the arguement from all sides. pro cov ops. anti cov op. Whats better for the game. What makes a better game etc.

Dont try to catch me out on technicalities when u misinteperet my posts and attach a pro or anti sentiment to my words.
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 15:24   #13
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

I'd rather lose 50 of the players that can't be arsed to take the opportunity to protect themselves from what they see as disruptive than lose 20 of those that continually try to find new ways of playing the game.

The simple fact is that there wouldn't be any dedicated cov oppers if everyone protected themselves against cov ops, using that fairly easy method called 'building security centres'. The best way to get your way is simply by making it impossible for cov oppers to hit anyone.
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 15:57   #14
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

its not my way lol read that other thread with allfather in I fully support cov oppers if thats what they wanna do.

But lets not be blind, from the threads that pop up its clear that a number of players are unhappy with cov ops. Lets also not be blind to the declining player base.

Wahtever your feelings on the subject, you need to disassociate them and look at the big picture. PA is dying. Its VERY close to ending. Maybe as little a a couple of rounds left tops. What is killing PA? Thats a very broad subject and best left to go into depth into on another thread. But is cov ops one of those factors? From the sentiments raised you could attribute the actions of cov oppers to being part of the reasons ppl leave the game. Im not gonna blame any 1 person quitting being solely because of a cov opper, however if sum1 cov opped me, destroyed say 2 factories and 10 dists, then i couldnt produce ships in time to self cover.....or have to stay up later for the ships to produce to atatck with, or someone can suddently do an incoming scan and see im faking when at the time of the launch i had more dists than their amps...

PA is not a str8 line. its not cause and effect. its cause, and then it rolls and rolls. One action can echo for weeks in the effect it has on a planet. Your round is not over because of 1 cov op action that comes through. However, your round could end because...

I get incoming.
I self cover with production order, and go to work, leaving certain ships at home that are needed for the battle with my producing ships.
I go into a meeting at work that ends after the land tick
Sum1 cov ops me, destroys 3 factories, pushing the production order back to ticks after the land tick.
The incoming lands destroys a gazillion ships.
I get home from work, and have no fleet to attack with that night.
Sum1 scans me, sees a serious lack of ships and attacks
I wake up to 7 waves of incoming.
I lose 1200 roids
My mining becomes seriously restricted, and I cant produce the ships required to land decent attacks.
I start hitting newb planets with my ickle fleets.
I get fk all xp and roids, and slip to a crap rank.
Takes 1 week to get my fleet back up to a decent standard
By then cant be assed and lose motivation because the universe has got a 1 week lead on me.

Just an example. Its hard to covey what I mean, so yeah :/ Dont have a blinkered view on cov ops. ITs not black and white, its not as simple as build x amount of sec centres and ur immune. For every 1 sec centre built its one less factory or amp or dist or finance centre.

Im not pro cov ops, im not anti cov ops. Im pro PA and dont want it to end. But i understand (or try to understand ) why it is ending. One thing im unsure of is exactly how much of why it is ending can be attributed to cov ops. But I am sure the extremes cov ops ha been taken to IS a factor when u break down and analyse the specifics of why PA is ending.

and err to clarify, ive been immune from cov ops all round, im not bitter. Just trying to see the argument from both sides, with a view on its position in the bigger picture
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 16:00   #15
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart

Secondly. Rikard maybe you right u sound like u know what ur on about, but would making a premium account like detailed be valid? I know limitations are bad, but if (made up numbers) the actions of say 20 cov oppers make 50 ppl a round quit whats the worse evil. I'd rather lose 20 cov oppers per round than 50 'genuine' players.
Well DarkHeart The mayority of the cov op planets around double as scan planets because the 2 are such a perfect combination. These planets would be paid for by the alliance to have their amp limit lifted and therefor will also have their cov op limit liften
Result is that people quit because of the existance of premium account (its never fair to lose to someone just because they put more money in) and the cov ops are still around.

Also cov ops dont make people quit. it makes people whine. You can easily make yourself immune and cov ops are relatively harmless. it steals 1/2 tick of resources 2 structures and 10 ships. thats so much weaker then any attackfleet can do
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 16:08   #16
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeart
I get incoming.
I self cover with production order, and go to work, leaving certain ships at home that are needed for the battle with my producing ships.
I go into a meeting at work that ends after the land tick
Sum1 cov ops me, destroys 3 factories, pushing the production order back to ticks after the land tick.
The incoming lands destroys a gazillion ships.
I get home from work, and have no fleet to attack with that night.
Sum1 scans me, sees a serious lack of ships and attacks
I wake up to 7 waves of incoming.
I lose 1200 roids
My mining becomes seriously restricted, and I cant produce the ships required to land decent attacks.
I start hitting newb planets with my ickle fleets.
I get fk all xp and roids, and slip to a crap rank.
Takes 1 week to get my fleet back up to a decent standard
By then cant be assed and lose motivation because the universe has got a 1 week lead on me.
Although this would be an amazingly shit situation to be in, this is a planet with 1500 roids. you expect him to have enough factories to calculate in the fact that one can be destroyed. Havoc kills structures but it choses them randomly. You will have 1 light 1 heavy and 1 FC destroyed for example. Prodding 10% less ships can counter the loss of 1 factory.

Also prod cannot make the difference between selfcovering and being utterly destroyed just the difference between losing 100 or 200 roids.

Again assuming that the planet had 1500 roids, he also has an alliance, or he would have lost the roids a long time ago. That alliance will be able to cover at least a few raids and the gal some others. losing 500 roids isnt that bad.

A more realistic scenario is someone who put all his resources in prod has his factory destroyed causing him to lose 50 roids and 5% of his fleet and then starts whining asif he is the only one who is ever targeted by Cov Ops
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 16:52   #17
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

If there's such a high risk of your round being ruined by 1-3 succesful cov ops on you, then surely you'd want to prevent this by being (near-)immune? People who don't build SCs and then proceed to complain about after they got hit are idiots and deserve to be treated as such. You don't hear me crying because I didn't build any Scarabs and got hit by 2 CR fleets in the last few ticks, do you?
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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 19:10   #18
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
If there's such a high risk of your round being ruined by 1-3 succesful cov ops on you, then surely you'd want to prevent this by being (near-)immune? People who don't build SCs and then proceed to complain about after they got hit are idiots and deserve to be treated as such. You don't hear me crying because I didn't build any Scarabs and got hit by 2 CR fleets in the last few ticks, do you?
So what your saying is we should remove CR? i agree.

Also remove:

* Prelaunch
* Scanning
* Defence

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Unread 21 Oct 2007, 22:57   #19
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Are you arguing for this suggestion (cov oppers make other people build SCs, so they influence other people's way of playing the game) or against it (removing cov ops reduces people's choices)?
Removing cov ops reduces peoples' choices - perhaps I should have made myself more clear. Covert ops are a great thing because they make it possible to have fun as an alliance scanner. They're a great asset to the game because they allow Joe Noob to compete on a different playing field, and I'm hugely in favour of that.
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 11:13   #20
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

FFS.
Either build some sec centers, shift your population or please stfu.
Surely one of those 3 choices isn't too difficult for you people?
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 11:49   #21
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

I dont really see the big need for cov-ops, but then again I dont see the big need to remove them.

In my opinion they are okay because some people prefer to play the game that way. However, there should perhaps be a "slight" limit to how many times ONE cov-op'er can bother one planet. F.eks 4-5 times pr day.
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 12:34   #22
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Quote:
In my opinion they are okay because some people prefer to play the game that way.
They can be bloody good fun.

Any planet which is being hit repeatedly by covert ops, has taken a huge gamble: he or she has gambled that spending time and resources on security, will not pay back whatever they invested in instead, and they lost out.

Boo hoo. What a terrible shame.
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 22:37   #23
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

its not too difficult, and the choices aren't so unclear that they need to be spelled out for people to 'get it'

1500 roids is pee easy to get tbh, even as a solo player (ie me)

A decent player, a good player might as suggested have the nous about himself or herself to have accounted for the possibility of a factory or two getting hit, but would a noob?

What makes somebody quit PA. who quits pa? We know of the vets who quit pa coz hey theyre vocal and known so they leave a farty little pa message (read my locked thread ) so yeah we all know the good players who quit and they prolly didnt quit coz they at least had the nous to not get caught in a situation as detailed.

But what of the ppl we dont know. The unknowns, the ppl without voices. Why do they quit. Its a solid bet (and yeah Morf if u read this I lost £50 on everton at the weekend so what do i know about solid bets )that an unknown doesn't know all that much about the mechanics of the game, otherwise they'd be known.

The very fact they're unknown implies a certain sense of nubness. It implies that perhaps they might just get caught in a situation as I detailed (or similar...theres countless possibilities!)

The arguements that a planet can be immune are all valid, and arguements I agree with (and I will always dare any1 to waste resources trying to cov op me )

BUT not all planets will be immune. Not all planets know how to be immune. And while any sarcastic lil rat can ezily point out that hey x fleets raids z planet for 0 losses lets remove that x fleet type ship from the game, the smarter man will say for a game of PA to continue past its rapidly encroaching death, some mechanics of the game are vital (ships v ships/planets) and do more good to the game than bad, whilst others ie in the case being argued....cov ops...*MIGHT* be bad for the game.

But im hypotheizing, I see situations in my head which have some basis on reality and bring them up coz maybe they need to be thought about. Im sure theres better men out there than me who know the statistics of new players quitting in a direct ratio to old players quitting, and whether any of this thread is valid at all as to why perhaps the new players quit. Theres many arguements in that...browser based games are old / slow / lack excitement etc.

What it boils down to in my book is regardless of your own feeling towards cov ops, it is the feeling of the majority of players (both ppl u know and ppl u dont know) that is relative to any continued success PA may or probably wont find. And in those circumstances it all boils down to what is actually good for the game and what isn't.

If 49 only play for cov ops and 50 ppl would quit because of cov ops. Then u jib cov ops off, or at least neuter it.

Alas, there statistics no1 will ever know for sure. SO lets do nothing and watch PA gradually disappear.
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 23:31   #24
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Re: Cov Ops, the sanctum of senselessness!

Quote:
Originally Posted by galla
Get rid of Cov Ops!

Why? They add nothing to the game. They allow people who do not wish to fully participate in the game to have an impact on the enjoyment of those who do. The theory may be fine but in practice cov ops are used by players with only two motives, to aid other players ( no better than farming ), or to simply be an annoyance. Either way they add nothing to the game and I propose they are removed from the code.
I actually used cov ops as extra income in this round (bank hacking) and it can be quite funny in previous rounds when you blew up a stockpilers only light/med/heavy factory (the one that they needed for to build def ships against your attack)
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