Basic stats

[Appocomaster]

10th September:
http://www.mykajs.net/Round19.3.htm (thx myk!)
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18:08 30th August 06
http://www.appocomaster.co.uk/Round19.2.htm - need to fix the fact there's possibly too much anti co (Scorpion?)

=====================
14:33 30th August 06.
Latest here:
http://www.appocomaster.co.uk/Round19.1.htm [by no means finished!]

============================================
9th August 06

These are a bit more basic than what i hoped for - I need to add the efficiencies (costs/damage/armour) and sort out especially Xan a bit better. Maybe by tomorrow I'll have a more rounded set of stats.
This has been made assuming xan have their proper cloaked back, with military scan as an extra scan on the scan list. Hence the slightly strange init system, with Terran, Xan and Zik kill ships all having roughly the same init. Terran wouldn't be quite so armour based, and Xan might be slightly more balanced too. There'd still be a fair difference!

Name Race Class Target Type Init
Harpy Ter Fi Fi Norm 5
Phoenix Ter Co Co Norm 6
Gryphon Ter Fr Co Norm 4
Chimera Ter Fr De Norm 6
Pegasus Ter De Fi Norm 4
Drake Ter De Cr Norm 5
Syren Ter Cr Fr Norm 5
Wyvern Ter Bs Cr Norm 7
Dragon Ter Bs Bs Norm 8
Demeter Ter De - Pod 20
Leviathon Ter Bs - Pod 20
Behemoth Ter Cr - SK 30
Spider Cath Fi Co EMP 1
Beetle Cath Co Fi EMP 2
Viper Cath Co Fr EMP 2
Scarab Cath Fr Cr EMP 1
Black Widow Cath De Bs EMP 1
Roach Cath Cr De EMP 2
Tarantula Cath Cr Bs Norm 8
Scorpion Cath Bs Co Norm 10
Mantis Cath Bs Fr Norm 10
Mosquito Cath Co - Pod 20
Hornet Cath Cr - Pod 20
Termite Cath Bs - SK 30
 
Name Race Class Target Type Init
Vsh Xan Fi Co Cloak 4
Pulsar Xan Fi Fr Cloak 5
Sentinal Xan Co Fi Cloak 4
Fireblade Xan Co De Cloak 5
Tzen Xan Fr Fi Cloak 5
Bomber Xan Fr Bs Cloak 6
Lancer Xan De Co Cloak 6
Broadsword Xan Cr Cr Cloak 8
Peacekeeper Xan Bs Cr Cloak 7
Dagger Xan Co - Pod 20
Sabre Xan Fr - Pod 20
Predator Xan De - SK 30
Cutlass Zik Fi Co Steal 40
Corsair Zik Fi De Norm 5
Cutter Zik Co Fi Steal 40
Thief Zik Fr Co Norm 6
Clipper Zik De Fr Norm 6
Buccaneer Zik De Cr Steal 40
Marauder Zik Cr De Steal 40
Rogue Zik Cr Bs Steal 40
Pirate Zik Bs Fr Steal 40
Privateer Zik Fi - Pod 20
Ironclad Zik De - Pod 20
Galleon Zik Fr - SK 30

p.s. i'm stuck on dial up miles away from my PC where I can upload everything nicely. If I make a better and more complete version, I'd appreciate it if someone could upload it nicely. (also I don't have excel on this machine, and works spreadsheet doesn't save to html).

[Clogg]

I think the terrans should be armor based, it is their "unique" trade. Since cath still have EMP, the ziks have steal. With all the kill ships around the same init the terrans should have their own edge.

The trades that make the races unique should be the cornerstone of statmaking in my opinion. And changing init because of armor is weak, since terrans are already penalized by having higher shipcost. Not that you are mentioning that here, but this is something that has been done for too often in the stats already. So I am trying to prevent this from happening again.

[Travler]

I like zik having 2 kill ships with the same speed or better than their targets.

Corsair Zik Fi De Norm 5
Clipper Zik De Fr Norm 6

With Terran de having init 4 vs fi though the corsair will be as usefull as pulsars are this round meaning that only the larger players can afford to invest in them. Should be init 5 like the zik since Ter BS can already own zik.

[Makhil]

Rather than destroying what's left of the xan, just remove them plz. It is outrageous to have their paper thin ships fire after everybody else.
- Both xan attack fleets fire AFTER the terran armour heavy... insane.
- Both Xan fleets are EMPed by Cath CO (CO being Cat attack fleet, they'll have plenty).
- Xan FR fleet is owned by the zik Clipper (0 loss def).
That leaves xan with only Fi fleet to attack ziks (before they can steal/farm the right ships)... not counting ofc on the other races def ships... including the Xan anti Fi firing first...

Cloak was meant to be the reason why the Xan have better init (and weaker armour), it's funny that while you plan to reintroduce cloaking you remove its advantage.

[Appocomaster]

Cloak is amazingly powerful.

build say 900 pods, 300 in each fleet.
place all your non-pod ships in one fleet. send all 3 out. you've effectively tripled your fleet - no one knows which fleet has all your ships in.

The alternative is to further nerf xan stats and leave init as it was. That's obviously very possible.

I've made a vaugely roughed set of stats, but am willing to change it so inits for xan are lower.

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Cloak is amazingly powerful.

build say 900 pods, 300 in each fleet.
place all your non-pod ships in one fleet. send all 3 out. you've effectively tripled your fleet - no one knows which fleet has all your ships in.

The alternative is to further nerf xan stats and leave init as it was. That's obviously very possible.

I've made a vaugely roughed set of stats, but am willing to change it so inits for xan are lower.

Yeah, and all alliances allows Xan's to threefleet..

[Appocomaster]

who said you can't send pods on defence?

[Kargool]

but to be serious in this debate. The current setup encourages everyone to play Zik, and while I dont really mind, I dont think the 4 races is balanced anymore because of the ziks and any attempt at fixing this will most likely lead to disaster for either ziks or any of the other races (as proven r13), or a ubersupreme other race (as proven r14,16). The ziks need balancing within their steal capability. 25% maxcap on steal f.example.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Kargool

or a ubersupreme other race (as proven r14,16).

What were those ubersupreme other races? :/

Due to the nature of things, cathaar are generally better starters, whilst zik and xand dominate later round. Without changing the stats completely, it's difficult to prevent this... round 14 was particularly well balanced by the end IMHO.

[Appocomaster]

mainly cath

[Makhil]

Cloak is powerful indeed, but for zik players (once they've stolen/farmed the required shippies).
Who cares which xan fleet is real when your ships will fire first anyway and kill most of them before they can fire... and fake def is perfect to counter fake attacks.

[jerome]

i have been saying since r13 that why not just have ziks pay a price for stealing ships, ie their ships should be vanquished for every 133/150/200% of resources they steal etc.. you know, like when the races where first introduced, though that was i believe only 118% iirc

[Veedeejem!]

Maybe what planetarion needs is new races instead of debating on how to fix the old ones round after round, remove the cath & zik caus they are usually the races that cause most problems with statcreating and balance and replace them with 2 more killraces like ter & xan

[Thefoundation]

Why not use the best stats from past rounds. Maybe balance them a little with cost and efficiency.

[Saphi]

use xan ter zik stats from rd 16 and cath rd 17 needs a bit of balancng but not much

[Proxi]

Originally Posted by Veedeejem!

Maybe what planetarion needs is new races instead of debating on how to fix the old ones round after round, remove the cath & zik caus they are usually the races that cause most problems with statcreating and balance and replace them with 2 more killraces like ter & xan

Losing the ability to steal other ships would be a horrific loss for this game. I liked when everyone had the option to steal. Can't remember what round it was, but still props to Jester for those stats.

I would say that maybe it is time to go back to tech trees which determine the ships available to you, rather than using races to seperate the ship types.

[Makhil]

Originally Posted by Proxi

Losing the ability to farm other ships would be a horrific loss for this game.

Really ?
There's a few things that can be done:
- include races in a branched tech tree
- kill the stealing ships when they have stolen a certain amount of value
- give stealing ships to every race

atm, value based round + current stealing/farming/cheating system gives Ziks too much power and kills the game (too much suspicion, are the winners the best players or the best cheaters ?).
oh please, while i'm at it... no 'zik only' havoc this time... let's do some 'capture the flag' thing

[Appocomaster]

Proxi, iirc I was the one who gave steal to all races, despite huge initial disagreement. After a round it was generally agreed that while it was fun, it wasn't the best way forward over time.

Steal does cause problems, but limiting steal won't totally get rid of those problems. It might make them more careful about stealing random ships, as it'll cost them ships and if they don't need them, then it's a waste of steal ships. It'll have to mean stats lean more in favour of Zikonian though.

[Ultimate Newbie]

That's an interesting idea actually, making Zik Steal ships T1=all, and thus totally dependant on what is being sent at them in the largest numbers.

[jerome]

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...36#post3052536

[Vikman]

Appoco did you make any changes to the stats you orginally posted?

[Appocomaster]

Sorry for not keeping this up. I did, but I never got around to posting them. Zik are a bit weak at the moment - they were looking a bit strong, so I increased prices by about 25%.

http://www.appocomaster.co.uk/Round19.1.htm

[Makhil]

wow there's a lot of anti CO (2 ships per race).
About Xan cloak... do you see the number of incoming ships or just the number of pods or just 0 ?

[Appocomaster]

Zik don't have anti co. I didn't notice that :s

It shows up the # of pods / structure killers (on unit scans too)

latest version up

[Paisley]

I will have a look at it later on

[Ultimate Newbie]

Appoco, are those the same ones that you gave to me?!

[Makhil]

Having a terran ship with a better init than most of the xan ships is like having a Xan with better armour than terrans... only there is no such xan ship, while there is such a terran ship : Gryphon. I think it should have init 5 (or you make the Fireblade init 4)...

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Makhil

only there is no such xan ship, while there is such a terran ship

Perhaps there should be...

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Appoco, are those the same ones that you gave to me?!

I keep changing them. I get bored very easily (and you took more than a day to tell me what you thought of them!)

[Ultimate Newbie]

God help me .

[Veedeejem!]

Originally Posted by Makhil

Having a terran ship with a better init than most of the xan ships is like having a Xan with better armour than terrans... only there is no such xan ship, while there is such a terran ship : Gryphon. I think it should have init 5 (or you make the Fireblade init 4)...

Quoted caus i feel the same way about it. It's like having a zik ship that steals before cath stuns = rediculous.

[GrandAdm Thrawn]

I miss the race-specific all-targeters announced in this stats, as long as they are unknown, a comment on the stats is a half thing

[GrandAdm Thrawn]

Originally Posted by Veedeejem!

Maybe what planetarion needs is new races instead of debating on how to fix the old ones round after round, remove the cath & zik caus they are usually the races that cause most problems with statcreating and balance and replace them with 2 more killraces like ter & xan

remove only the ziks, they are a race that supports cheats and lamers - what is not to say that "most" or even "all" ziks are, but there are enough of those. Replace it by a race, that takes control of enemy ships only for the duration of the battle firing first ofc.

[Veedeejem!]

Originally Posted by GrandAdm Thrawn

remove only the ziks, they are a race that supports cheats and lamers - what is not to say that "most" or even "all" ziks are, but there are enough of those. Replace it by a race, that takes control of enemy ships only for the duration of the battle firing first ofc.

you mean like "subversion"?
That was in a couple of rounds back (think it was 13 but i could be wrong so don't feel bad about correcting me on this one ) It was basicly a bad idea caus then alliancefriends / other people send along their defships with a zik attack so their deffleet would get subverted & fire at the target + his real defenders.
So NO NO NO NO NO ...

[Ultimate Newbie]

Subversion was R11.

And it was a bloody brilliant idea (like most of mine are ), however it was implemented poorly. The impact of Red Defence was such that it made defending totally pointless, unless you were using the defence to attack.

Subversion is definately a viable attacking system. The major problems are, reconciling all these EMP and Subversion ships firing before the poor old Xans who thus loose their initiative advantage (eg, xans will need more armour), and making sure that the use of red defence is minimised. The latter of which is a headache, but i've solved it before (mind, it took about 2 months, and i dont have the old stats after a reformat ).

[Makhil]

Random observations on temporary r19 stats:

1 Fi pod - 6 anti Fi, class: Fi (1) Co (3) Fr (1) De (1) - 4 available for ally def
2 Co pods - 8 anti Co, class: Fi (3) Co (1) Fr (2) De (1) Bs (1) - 4 available for ally def
1 Fr pod - 6 anti Fr, class: Fi (1) Co (1) De (1) Cr (1) Bs (2) - 3 available for ally def
2 De pods - 5 anti DE, class: Fi (1) Co (1) Fr (1) Cr (2) - 3 available for ally def
1 Cr pod - 6 anti CR, class: Fr (1) De (2) Cr (1) Bs (2) - 6 available for ally def
1 Bs pod - 5 anti Bs, class: Fr (1) De (1) Cr (2) Bs (1) - 5 available for ally def

Terran 10 ships are targetting their pods (8 available in ally)
Zik 11 ships are targetting their pods (7 available in ally)
Xan 14 ships are targeting their pods (7 available in ally)
Caths 14 ships are targetting their pods (10 available in ally)

Terran De targets 3 anti DE - 2 remain untargeted, 2 capable of ally def : Fireblade (xan), Chimera (ter)
Terran Bs target 3 anti BS - 2 remain untargeted, 2 capable of ally def : Bomber (xan), Black Widow (cat)

Zik Fi target 4 anti Fi - 2 remain untargeted, 1 capable of ally def : Harpy (ter)
Zik De target 3 anti DE - 2 remain untargeted, 2 capable of ally def : Corsair (zik), Fireblade (xan)

Xan Co target 4 anti Co - 4 remain untargeted, 1 capable of ally def : Phoenix (ter)
Xan Fr target 3 anti Fr - 3 remain untargeted, 2 capable of ally def : Clipper (zik), Viper (cat)

Cath Co target 5 anti Co - 3 remain untargeted, 1 capable of ally def : Phoenix (ter)
Cath Cr target 4 anti Cr - 2 remain untargeted, 2 capable of ally def : Broadsword (xan), Scarab (cat)

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Sorry for not keeping this up. I did, but I never got around to posting them. Zik are a bit weak at the moment - they were looking a bit strong, so I increased prices by about 25%.

http://www.appocomaster.co.uk/Round19.1.htm

To be honest, considering recent history, it's probably a good idea if zik go into the round looking lke they're weak.

[Appocomaster]

I've got a new file, with slightly reduced 0 loss defence issues, etc.

However, I can't upload it! grr!

edit:
thanks myk!
http://www.mykajs.net/Round19.3.htm

[Appocomaster]

Well, Keizari keeps mentioning strokes when he saw them, so he must be happy

[jerome]

boring

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by jerome

boring

Thanks for that robban but how about something a bit more constructive?


Something worth avoiding: A single race being immune to incomings. This can happen with xans, saw this in r16 but it wasn't as noticeable due to xp dominating, and ziks. It can happen with caths but only due to excellent play plus imbalanced stats developing early on. The key to this is zik ships being a) expensive and b) only have really effective stealing developing relatively late in the day, you can accomplish this through no zik cr/bs pods. This decreases the ease of zik faking, and results in zik spending money on fi through fr class ships mostly. You work it so that zik fi/co/fr/de is weaker and zik cr/bs stronger (in terms of stealers). You compensate for the ease that ziks can be roided by giving them non pod-class kill ships, possibly zero loss. You obviously prevent this through xans by making them unable to build one class of ship to cover a huge amount of incomings, so as few crossovers (especially in what is likely to be the dominant roiding fleet for each of the other races) as possible.

Something worth having: Attacking and defending requiring intelligence. Give people the option to fake as much as possible. You can do this through using good stats (I recall in r16 someone did a really nice fake of fr as cr on idler in my galaxy), which allow people to give a good range of incs. This has corresponding benefits, it becomes more difficult to defend, which increases fluidity in gameplay and roid transfer. Let's face it, there is nothing worse than a round that is done and dusted after three weeks. So that defending requires intelligence, make it so that a lot of each race's defence ships versus a specific race come no more than one class away from each other (eg terran xan def comes in the de/cr category). This means that good DCs can scare off attackers if their members can manipulate their ship counts properly, so as per my example a terran planet would build 150 of each defensive ship. Gameplay should allow and reward originality as much as possible.

Something else worth avoiding, attack/def ships targetting each other. This is one of the primary things that people like robban talk about when they describe things as boring. 100k xan fi anti-co defence versus 20k xan co anti-fi is ****ing dull. It's a recipe for not attacking. This is a horrible, horrible thing which leads to stagnation and Jesus killing himself. Avoid this as much as possible.

Something worth bearing in mind. Even numbers of people don't sign up for each race. I'd estimate this round that the race stats ter:cath:xan:zik will look roughly like 30:20:20:30. However these stats need to be broken down to make more sense for how the round will develop, in terms of highly active player (I'm going to say t300 here but obviously there are variations due to wars developing, shit people sitting on roids in big gals etc) the split will look more like 13:26:26:35. The extent to which this will actually be true will depend on how good the stats look. Now you want to extrapolate backwards, there will be a huge number of terran players who are inactive and will be considered an easy source of roids. You want to prevent them being roided too easily because a) they'll be new and more likely to quit and b) launching on people smaller than you a lot is homosexual. So what you do is give terran expensive ships that keep off each race's main attack fleet and are very difficult to kill. People can change this by building ships for their roiding fleet which target this defence more but remember only shit people will end up doing this and they won't be rewarded because you manipulate the stats so that the other races don't have their main attack ships in the class that mr shit player is going to build lots of anti-whatever for. Result? Disco. Remember this won't result in mega-super-duper terran planets because terran planets will still find it difficult to hold onto their roids due to things like the ease of faking and the difficulty terran planets always have in building enough anti-everything to protect themselves (they don't fire first remember!) So you make hitting small terran planets unrewarding, but prevent hitting big ones from becoming impossible.

Just an opinion yo.

[jerome]

that's all great but this sort of race set-up has been maxed out in terms of innovation, i've got some ideas but i need a copy of the world cup stats which seemingly noone seems to have first to just quickly run through and generally change heavily!

[robban1]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Thanks for that robban but how about something a bit more constructive?

O.o

give us a tweaked set of r14 stats and i might even play

[Makhil]

Gryphon "no idea what to do with this ship"...

well, to keep with the logic of your stats you coud have it targeting Fr. Terrans will have a anti FR capacity without having to wait for the CR class. Gryphon will be a 0 loss def vs xan FR but if the xan has faked with Co, the Gryph will die... can make for interesting battles.

[qebab]

These same stats have been used with variations for as long as I have been playing these games.

Why not just redesign the whole thing? It's getting a bit erm tedious to see these stats discussion ending up in stats that have basicly been the same for years anyway. I'm actually more in support of some of jers ideas.