game mechanics over ship stats: an elaboration for Nat

[hyfe]

Originally posted by SpazMonster
IYour problem is that you care about what survives the next tick. It's entirely irrelevant. When you're arranging defence, you arrange defence so you do more damage to the attacker than the defenders take the 1st tick and make his/her losses not worth the roids.

Actually..you want the attacker to take enough losses over all 3 ticks also; so that cheaper roids the last tick won't outweigh the more expensive roids first ticks.

So, for the 'dying' difference to actually come into play; there needs to be quite alot of difference in armor. But the case with Pulsars is that it actually is! Calcing defences last roud I found out in alot of cases; so many pulsars would die first tick, that the attacker would get decent losses if he just stayed and took the two better ticks later on also. This didn't happen with Sentinels!

So, because of their insane habit of dying; Pulsar actually became a 'special case' concering defence sending. You didn't only need to calc first tick, you needed to calc all three

When defending against Terran last round i quickly found out my how preferred choices:
1.Blocking everything (if a little short send in pulsars)
2.Kill enough, get a majority of corsairs, sentinels or *anything* but pulsars too keep losses over ticks low enough.
3.Take whatever rubble people have and hope the guy doesn't calc (works out most of the time; and gambling sure is fun)

[SpazMonster]

I give up.

Everyone can build all the sentinals they want. Don't pay any attention what myself, iceaxe, mad or parracida has said over the past few days. Infact make your whole damn fleets sentinals because they shoot all classes and have such nice armor. Sents and vultures sounds like the way to go for me.

[Moondoggie]

IYour problem is that you care about what survives the next tick. It's entirely irrelevant. When you're arranging defence, you arrange defence so you do more damage to the attacker than the defenders take the 1st tick and make his/her losses not worth the roids.

Would you rather kill 25% more of your enemies ships or have twice as many of yours survive? That is my point entirely.

So, for the 'dying' difference to actually come into play; there needs to be quite alot of difference in armor. But the case with Pulsars is that it actually is! Calcing defences last roud I found out in alot of cases; so many pulsars would die first tick, that the attacker would get decent losses if he just stayed and took the two better ticks later on also. This didn't happen with Sentinels!

This is stressed even more this round with the pulsar getting a 26% price increase while the sentinal's price only increased by 17%.

[Chax]

Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
Because I can't really see a good use for wyverns for attacking anyway, so since they'd often be a waste if sent to attack, I'd rather spend the resources i would spend on them on a ship which has more than just one trick.

Wyverns blow at killing fr, they're only use is against DE, syrens are useful against both, with the added insentive that they hit xan (though not greatly, but depending on bomber numbers, almost freely)

Wyverns are nasty towards a cath's pulse cannons.

[Moondoggie]

Everyone can build all the sentinals they want. Don't pay any attention what myself, iceaxe, mad or parracida has said over the past few days. Infact make your whole damn fleets sentinals because they shoot all classes and have such nice armor. Sents and vultures sounds like the way to go for me.

I never said anything like this. Never once have I wrote anything about attacking. My entire argument has been in the situation of defending vs pegasus attacks, in which sentinals do a better job.

You can make all the anecdotal statements you want or take anything out of context, but that doesn't make it right.

If I was xan I would probably build both because any ship that targetted fighters with a gunpower of 2, 4, 5+ damage would be just as efficent at killing either. In all of those cases it would take the same number of hits to kill either the sentinal or pulsar, thus the sentinal would have no advantage. If there are a lot of cutters and pegasus around (which there will be), I would much rather have the sentinal. And with the vsharrak only getting a slight increase in cost, those are now much more reliable as well.

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by Chax
Wyverns are nasty towards a cath's pulse cannons.

Ta chax, that made me smile

wyverns have been relegated to pds bashing ;-)

[Bongdage]

Originally posted by black-eyed boy
Ever heard of something called pillager? peacekeeper? fireblade? avenger? tarantula? wyvern in the end?

ever seen anyone use any of these ships bar the wyvern? cos i sure as hell havent, not in any feasable force anyway...

[hyfe]

Originally posted by SpazMonster
I give up.

Everyone can build all the sentinals they want. Don't pay any attention what myself, iceaxe, mad or parracida has said over the past few days. Infact make your whole damn fleets sentinals because they shoot all classes and have such nice armor. Sents and vultures sounds like the way to go for me.

heh. just because the sentinel was overrated last round doesn't mean they doesn't any have uses.

And yes, we've heard that the pulsars kill more effiecently. We claim that the horrible rate they are dying at makes it a special case regarding defence: who cares if it killes 25% more first tick, as long as they kill alot less the next tick, and even less last tick?! In my experience: The defence needed for a decent 3 tick defence are more with pulsars than with sentinels: so Shoot me.

If you don't agree; thats your problem. I still will believe it until you say something constructive that adresses this point and 'proves' it invalid.

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by hyfe
heh. just because the sentinel was overrated last round doesn't mean they doesn't any have uses.

And yes, we've heard that the pulsars kill more effiecently. We claim that the horrible rate they are dying at makes it a special case regarding defence: who cares if it killes 25% more first tick, as long as they kill alot less the next tick, and even less last tick?! In my experience: The defence needed for a decent 3 tick defence are more with pulsars than with sentinels: so Shoot me.

If you don't agree; thats your problem. I still will believe it until you say something constructive that adresses this point and 'proves' it invalid.

here's one for you, on average people calc the first tick losses, since by the second tick more can arrive (and often is)

if the first tick loses are higher for them, they'll pull before they even land.

secondly, corsairs would solve any armour problem of the pulsar drastically and they'd do it far better than sentinals would.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
here's one for you, on average people calc the first tick losses, since by the second tick more can arrive (and often is)

if the first tick loses are higher for them, they'll pull before they even land.

Well..the point of defending would be to cover as much as possible as cheaply as possible. Sending in more 2.tick when you could have covered it with less resources total in the first place isn't good economy. Still; its your choice.

secondly, corsairs would solve any armour problem of the pulsar drastically and they'd do it far better than sentinals would.

Well. I did mention flacking the pulsars didn't I? My bias toward that options probably stems largely from the fact that we had very few ziko's in my alliance last round. However you're completly right; pulsars combined with corsairs are better off against pegasi than sentinels are.

I'd still say the sent has enough redeeming qualities as a allround defense ship though, so most DC probably would want some available. It just ain't the gamekiller alot of people last round thought it was...

[MAdnRisKy]

THE SENT WAS EVEN WORSE LAST ROUND THAN IT IS NOW!!!

(why don't people understand this? big numbers of a ship does not neccessarily mean that it rocks)

[mongob0ffel]

beetles dont fire at sentinels

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by mongob0ffel
beetles dont fire at sentinels

erm try again?

[Iceaxe]

Originally posted by mongob0ffel
beetles dont fire at sentinels

Been hitting the wacky tobaccy again haven't you b0ffel?

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally posted by Bongdage
ever seen anyone use any of these ships bar the wyvern? cos i sure as hell havent, not in any feasable force anyway...

I had a pretty hardcore Tarant fleet in R6 (along with an even more hardcore BW fleet). Thoguh it didnt do all that well against 15k Hydra :\

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally posted by hyfe
Well..the point of defending would be to cover as much as possible as cheaply as possible. Sending in more 2.tick when you could have covered it with less resources total in the first place isn't good economy. Still; its your choice.

As a former DC, i can tell you that its not that easy to muster sufficient defence from anywhere, unless perhaps you are in the winning/victorious alliance/powerblock in which case there is defence abundance.

additional defence is also heaveir units - crusiers and battleships - that are not generall targeted by attacking fleets that people had lying around at home. they were often a deciding factor in my defences. more often than not they recalled cos they couldnt stop the BA muahahahahahha

Just one thing to mention: MadnRisky said Wyvern suck at killing FR, they DO NOT.
Wyvern is the best anti Fr killer if you compare the Ships by average killing.

Average (over all FR ships out there in resources per 1k killed)

Wyvern 29.160
Syren 30,300

So the Wyvern is the best anti FR killer Terran has with T2. If it comes to T1 use Phoenix or Hydra both have similar ratios.

And killing FR is one main important thing in the game !!

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by Jori.X.McKie
Just one thing to mention: MadnRisky said Wyvern suck at killing FR, they DO NOT.
Wyvern is the best anti Fr killer if you compare the Ships by average killing.

Average (over all FR ships out there in resources per 1k killed)

Wyvern 29.160
Syren 30,300

So the Wyvern is the best anti FR killer Terran has with T2. If it comes to T1 use Phoenix or Hydra both have similar ratios.

And killing FR is one main important thing in the game !!

where the hell did you get those numbers from?

[Moondoggie]

Wyverns firepower is mostly wasted on frigates. A weapon speed of 12 vs the average frigate agility of 20 makes it largely inaccurate.

Their other problem vs frigates is that their gunpower is mostly wasted. Most frigates have between 30-40 armor. Thus it will take at least 2 hits to kill them. Doing 54 damage to a ship with 30 armor is inefficient.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Moondoggie
Wyverns firepower is mostly wasted on frigates. A weapon speed of 12 vs the average frigate agility of 20 makes it largely inaccurate.

Their other problem vs frigates is that their gunpower is mostly wasted. Most frigates have between 30-40 armor. Thus it will take at least 2 hits to kill them. Doing 54 damage to a ship with 30 armor is inefficient.

They are much better de killers, and there are much better frigate killers, but they can kill frigates, and do provide a good defence against frigates.

[MAdnRisKy]

I'm going to say this one last time and I hope to god someone listens to me.

Syrens.... wait for it.... kill DE better than wyverns.

Syrens kill FR MUCH better than wyverns

syrens kill co, wyverns don't.


now if you wish to make an arguement that wyverns are more practical than syrens go ahead, but PLEASE stop saying wyverns are better kills because it simply isn't true.

syren on peg takes 3.9 for 1 resource worth
Wyvern takes 4.4 for 1

Syren on clipper takes 3.7 for 1
Wyvern taks 4.3


On FR against wids and cutters (the two most common FR you would face with you as the defender)

Syren on widow takes 3.4 resources to kill 1 resource unit
Wyvern takes 6

syren on cutter 4.9
wyvern on cutter 6.4


Now, please please please stop saying the wyvern rocks you're deluding yourselves, the syren is the better ship, the wyverns only ace card is it's eta and in the case of buccaneers it's init.


if you can give me a good example where wyverns are useful on an attack then fine, but the only time I can see that happening is against a zik, your worst target in most cases. You'd be better off just not spending the resources on the wyverns and hitting cat and xan instead. If you want mobile pds for heveans sake use the syren, it is considerably better and more useful in that role than the wyvern will ever be.

[K-W]

No one is adding another tick of defense time to thier attack for a ship that kills de and frig better.

Its really just this simple. Terran is unchanged from last round. Last round syrens were fairly worthless. Now its pretty clear that you think you know better than the many many skilled players who played terrans and tried them in combat, but youve yet to give any justification for why terrans this round should go against the results of actual round play and add another tick to thier attacks just for a more efficient ship.

If the stats had changed this round, then we might have reason to give your argument more credit. No one is arguing that syren arent a more efficient killer, but the eta and class far outweigh the efficiency. Wyvern do their job, and they do it faster and die less easily.

People say tht the wyvern rocks, because its proven itself in rounds. It does rock, it has rocked, it is a good valuable ship and a key ship in any terran fleet.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by K-W
No one is adding another tick of defense time to thier attack for a ship that kills de and frig better.

Argueing against what he actually said might be a tad more productive.

1. He claims they are useless for attacks, and he has yet to see a target where they were needed (except for ziks, who you really ought to stay away from anyways).

If you don't agree; show him examples where they are needed in an attack fleet. Until then; I somehow doubt he's going to give that argument much credit.

Its really just this simple. Terran is unchanged from last round. Last round syrens were fairly worthless.

Considering this is a thread about how much game-mechanichs and other stuff than the actual stats are important this is a pretty outragous claim!

1. Last round were xan dominated. If you wish to tailor your fleet on what was built last round; go ahead and do it.. but i'd seriously warn against advicing others to do the same.
2. We will see more DE attack this round
3. Last round was a defence round; this won't be. (which increases the probability of having to build 'moveable PDS')
4. Low eta attacks from a hostile para/cluster might mean you have to entrench. Syrens are excellent for this.

Bottom line is: Syrens and wyverns are different ships! I'd classify their key-roles as this:
Syrens: fills a heavy high eta mobile-pds role
Wyvern: adds fr/de targetting to attack fleets.

I'd say you're not disagreeing on which ships fills which role better. I'd say you're disagreeing on which ship role is needed. Discussing the conditions a terran has to work in, how the rest of the uni looks, and what targets he might want to hit is much more worthile if you're ever going to agree on this imo

hyfe|away

[K-W]

Originally posted by hyfe
Argueing against what he actually said might be a tad more productive.

1. He claims they are useless for attacks, and he has yet to see a target where they were needed (except for ziks, who you really ought to stay away from anyways).

If you don't agree; show him examples where they are needed in an attack fleet. Until then; I somehow doubt he's going to give that argument much credit.

Considering this is a thread about how much game-mechanichs and other stuff than the actual stats are important this is a pretty outragous claim!

1. Last round were xan dominated. If you wish to tailor your fleet on what was built last round; go ahead and do it.. but i'd seriously warn against advicing others to do the same.
2. We will see more DE attack this round
3. Last round was a defence round; this won't be. (which increases the probability of having to build 'moveable PDS')
4. Low eta attacks from a hostile para/cluster might mean you have to entrench. Syrens are excellent for this.

Bottom line is: Syrens and wyverns are different ships! I'd classify their key-roles as this:
Syrens: fills a heavy high eta mobile-pds role
Wyvern: adds fr/de targetting to attack fleets.

I'd say you're not disagreeing on which ships fills which role better. I'd say you're disagreeing on which ship role is needed. Discussing the conditions a terran has to work in, how the rest of the uni looks, and what targets he might want to hit is much more worthile if you're ever going to agree on this imo

hyfe|away

Hyfe, what part of Wyvern have already been proven a useful ship are you having trouble understanding?

How is that claim outrageous. They have been. And the slight difference in races this round doesnt change that. No one needs syren to kill co anyway.

If you dont tailor a terran fleet to what was done last round you are stupid. Who cares if we see a slight increase in DE attack. Wyvern are a great DE defence. A defence round? what are you talking about, every round is a defence round. Mobile pds is only useful when it targets classes you need targetted. Syrens do not do that. It has never been valuable to build high eta ships that target nothing new.


Bottome line is this.

Wyvern are valuable on both attacks and defences arn are more than good at thier job. THey all but completely prevent DE attacks, and they do a faire bit of damage to frig fleets.

Syren are more efficient at these two, but they are useless on attack. As far as t3 co, thats useless, you have pegs for that.

The races are not much different than last round, so please please try and explain why syren will be needed when they dont add any important features to a terran fleet.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by K-W
Hyfe, what part of Wyvern have already been proven a useful ship are you having trouble understanding?

the part in the middle.

You obviosly agree that Syrens are better PDS. Now: to convince me: All you have to do is to spefically adress what Mad'n'risky said; instead of just ignoring/overlooking it:

Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
if you can give me a good example where wyverns are useful on an attack then fine, but the only time I can see that happening is against a zik, your worst target in most cases. You'd be better off just not spending the resources on the wyverns and hitting cat and xan instead. If you want mobile pds for heveans sake use the syren, it is considerably better and more useful in that role than the wyvern will ever be.

Originally posted by K-W
How is that claim outrageous.

This is your reasoning:
stats unchanged & last round it was so -> this round it must also be so.

and it doesn't hold. Ships have different roles. Sometimes you need a ship to do that..sometimes you need a ship to do this. This is dependant on the enviroment!

No planet is an island

Originally posted by K-W
A defence round? what are you talking about, every round is a defence round. Mobile pds is only useful when it targets classes you need targetted. Syrens do not do that. It has never been valuable to build high eta ships that target nothing new.

Last round defense was overall dead easy to get; in sharp contrast to every single round I've played atleast. To get through on people you needed massive overkills to a such extreme extent never seen before. Without random galaxies; this round will look different.

At the risk of sounding like an asshole: please refer to mad'n'risky post again. He said pretty much everything that needed to be said (and feel free to adress the points he actually made)

[Moondoggie]

I gotta agree with Hyfe and Madnrisky. I've always thought the wyvern an overrated ship.

Vs. Cathaar- None of the ships it targets can target your pegs and demeters, so why bother sending it. If a cath could get def to stop your de (usually corsair, pulsar, sentinal, or roaches), he'd just move all his de and fr away anyway.

Vs. Xandathrii- This doesn't need explaining at all.

Vs. Terran- Somewhat useful because it should always have something to fire at.

Vs. Zikonian- If you do decide to attack zik, then this ship will be needed in large numbers. The problem is that a heavy de zik will have so much de targetting that even while sending in large numbers of wyverns, the damage your pegs take will not be worth it. If the zik happens to have pirates, then your wyverns wont be coming back.

No one is saying to put syrens in your roiding fleet. Its role would be mobile galactic/cluster/para pds. It can still attack though, and be a very strong second wave ship.

[MAdnRisKy]

Germ, without sounding like a patronising git (which if I did I won't worry about, you don't seem to ) I'll give you a few of the changes this round which are having an impact on ship choice.

Removal of overburn.

That means xan incomming has 1 tick to get defence for if it's launched in universe and 0 ticks if it's launched in para/cluster (they haven't really thought that one through imo but never mind)

so you better stock up on anything that hits them heh

Introduction of para.

Now here you can see that someone has to get enough de defence to stop you in 1 tick not 2 if you send in parra.
This is a big bonus to you, because amassing enough de defence is hard especially since the ships you'll send to fight it,die horribly to it. So with this in mind, why the heck would you hit a zik, when it's so bloomin easy for you to hit xan and cat this round, with the removal of fear about more roaches, bombers brigs or even gryphons (which btw is why terrans should NEVER build gryphons, thery will be completely useless with the time frames you once outlined, - use them early then switch to dragons and use them as (get this folks) mobile pds - since early on most attacks will be in para and co defence is worth diddly squat).


what you are remembering btw is overburnt wyverns, they actually kicked ass and if sent on the first tick of DE incomming they'd make it.

Now the only time, the ONLY time a wyverns eta advantage could help it on defence (note I say defence, since I can't actually think of a good reason to attack with the things) is if they send out of para and you can send in and if in that situation where your allies are under attack and you're not, and your galaxy has no use for them, then that trade off in kill power for eta might prove useful I guess


oh and btw

originally posted by K-W
No one is arguing that syren arent a more efficient killer

actually you did and then deleted it

[hAl]

If you build the Syren as you mobile pds you can build some Hydra's as well. Sure, they are les efficient than syren but you can send them along on attack and they will do nicely as armourcover agains ****loads of fast ETA corsair defence and they cost less E for the amount of armour you send as well. Only usefull in limited cover numbers and only if syren is in your fleet already as you would not want to add classes to your fleet for it.

hAl

[K-W]

To answer the multiple points of interest.

Hyfe:

The only reason to waste resources on a pds ship are if it fills a need. Syrens dont fill a need. Your pegs more than effectively do small ships, you int and wyvern take care of de and frig. Wasting your resources on a ship that sits at your base is not a good idea for the same reason that pds is not a good idea. What happens on the night youve got 3 fleets out and someone decides to send a kill fleet to destroy your stranded cr fleet that has a ton of resources tied up in it?

I dont have to give an example of where wyverns are useful in an attack, because they are. Its already been shown. and i dont know what exact stat pages you are using but THE ENVIROMENT IS THE SAME. There will be the exact same enviroment as last round. The races will be roiding with the same ships and defending with the same ships. Pls explain to me how it will be different. Xan will have a few less ships, ziks will be a little different. Overall nothing has changed, so pls prove that the minor changes made will have the gigantic impact on how this game will be played pls.

We only had overburn for the last round, yet having a high eta pds ship around has never been a good idea. Ive played this game since rd 2, and at no point has it been good strategy to build a ship that just sits at base, adds to your score and cant be used on attacks.

Moondoggie:

Cathaar cant stop battleships, so sending wyvern along discourages fr and de defence from thier allies as well doing a faire bit of damage(killing is a good thing to do in this game sometimes) And if you make them run thier whole fleet and not just thier fi/co, someone can then sneak in a xan fleet and roid them some more or something to that effect.

Bashing fleets are designed to discourage defence, and the wyvern adds the killing power you need to discourage big ship defence. With the wyv/peg fleet, you have eta 8, you covere fi/co/fr/de. And there is always a shortage of anti bs defence around.

MAdnRisKy:

Removal of overburn:
There is a small ship called the peguses which is a damn lot better at killing xan roiding fleets than the syren and can also be used on attacks. So you shouldnt stock up on anything that hits them, you should stock up on the best thing that hits them.

Introduction of para:

Id rather be able to hit all races myself. It is never easy to hit a xan m8. During the most part of the round terrans and ziks are great targets for terrans. Caths are too but are hard to claim in attacks since everyone wants them. BTW the reason you use dragons as mobile pds is because they hit a class no better ship hits that is NOT the case with syren.

I am not remember overburnt wyverns, ive played this game since rd 2, I do have some idea of how it is played without overburn. Wyverns on overburn where a good way to never have any e anway.

Im sorry that you cant think of a good reason to attack with them. Im not saying they are an all use attack ship, but a terran who can think of those reasons will probably be more successful.

I never argued that the syren wasnt a more effiecient killer and then deleted it. Im not sure if you misread something or hallucinated.

Hal

If you are going to build a cr fleet as a terran, which is not advisable, I suppose you coult throw hydras in. They tend to die very easily though. Overall terran cruisers are just not worth building. The classic terran fleet of Pegs/Dems/Wyv with int for allaice def and some dragons to fend off bs is tried, tested, proven and effective.

[MAdnRisKy]

Germ you did, don't make me hit my back button a million times you said wyverns were better de killers but nor as good at fr.

LIES

()


secondly, I want you to not do what everyone else did (that's how some people think the sentinal was a good ship last round, it wasn't, they were built out of neccessity not out of choice, ask any good xan player, or hell read this thread) but to look at the stats and the mechanics yourself, and back up your points with hard evidence not heresay.

and finally, on the subject of reading this thread, try having a look at what I've said here. This round is different to any other round. The stats may be slightly different to round 8 the game mechanics are very different. There is an even smaller user base, and detection of hostiles will be much similar to round 7 not 8. This will mean that on a bad night, up to 50% of your alies and anything up to 70% of your usual defence base can be hit. Based on this IF a galaxy could stop even half it's oincomming simply by swapping ships you stand a lot better chance of getting yourself covered.

Your reasoning about the syren's co being mute because of the peg would mean that you advocate more peg building and less wyvern building btw, did you actually mean that?

and I can't believe your arguement to hyfe that syrens don't fill a need because wyverns and pegs cover it. His whole point was that syrens fill the need of wyverns better.

and btw a little tip, ziks are BAD targets for terran. Their primary anti de ship is the clipper (or it should be this round) and secondly maybe the corsair. Now for starters pegs aren't great at killing corsairs they overkill a lot, and secondly since they're there pulsars borrowed form a mate can hide in the numbers and make a hell of a mess (pulsars ordinarily get wacked by pegs). That withstanding you still haven't dealt with the clippers, you want to use wyvern on those? you're going to need a lot of them to make a difference, and as soon as you add bs you have to deal with the buccs, which is going to mean LOT of wyverns, far too many for my liking and once you add that many you have to drop the number of pegs to stay under the cap, which means just a small amount of defence will make the losses unacceptable.

stop looking at what has been used before, challenge it, it's the only way to make progress.

[K-W]

You can hit your back button till you stop breathing. I never said that.

The problem with your sentinal example is in your suggestion that I "ask any good xan player." You would have a point if I didnt play terran fairly well. I did, so I would know. Also, built of of neccessity means it was neccessary to build them. So even then you wouldnt have a point.

So you think that the better efficiency of the syren in the avg 3 terrans in a galaxy is going to make the difference between a galaxy getting covered or not? I would much rather my gal m8 not waste score on pds so he can grow faster and get use more ships overall.

I made no statement about building more pegs. Please stop jumping to conclusions. Any terran should have more than enough pegs to kill plenty of co. Unless of course there is a ton of pulsar, but if your getting bashed having some cruisers around isnt going to be of much help anyway.

I know that was his argument, and his argument is wrong. The syren is pds. The wyvern can be used in attacks and defences and is good in both thos situations. The syren cannot do the job the wyvern does and the only job it does is already done by pegs and wyvern.

I was terran, I got tons of roids off ziks, so your point is fairly moot. A good zik fleet is abad for a terran, welcome to PA, not everyone has a pefect fleet.

As far as challenging towards progress, huh? This isnt world hunger, we arent making progress through some complex problem. This game is blazingly simple. The odds that we went through an entire round with many skilled players playing terran and they didnt figure out the best way to play it is slim-to-none. Looking at the past is the single and unrivaled best way to predict anything in this game.

[kyrealean]

posted by KW

If you are going to build a cr fleet as a terran, which is not advisable, I suppose you coult throw hydras in. They tend to die very easily though. Overall terran cruisers are just not worth building. The classic terran fleet of Pegs/Dems/Wyv with int for allaice def and some dragons to fend off bs is tried, tested, proven and effective.


i have to say that if you dont have Chimeras with this fleet here, u are suseptable to a Cath Cruiser attack fleet.

Dragons are nice but wont stop a big cath that can throw a few thousand Cruisers at you ofc this is provided u get no defense etc. But Chimeras are the #1 ship in a Terrans arsenal that will be more preventative than anything.


oh and i do hope that the Xans out there this round will not purchase the Sentinals, i really do. Cathaars will love you all round for it. trust me on that 1

[K-W]

Originally posted by kyrealean
posted by KW

If you are going to build a cr fleet as a terran, which is not advisable, I suppose you coult throw hydras in. They tend to die very easily though. Overall terran cruisers are just not worth building. The classic terran fleet of Pegs/Dems/Wyv with int for allaice def and some dragons to fend off bs is tried, tested, proven and effective.


i have to say that if you dont have Chimeras with this fleet here, u are suseptable to a Cath Cruiser attack fleet.

Dragons are nice but wont stop a big cath that can throw a few thousand Cruisers at you ofc this is provided u get no defense etc. But Chimeras are the #1 ship in a Terrans arsenal that will be more preventative than anything.


oh and i do hope that the Xans out there this round will not purchase the Sentinals, i really do. Cathaars will love you all round for it. trust me on that 1

I left out chims and harpys which are both parts of a good terran fleet. The chim fleet totatlly needed until you can build a full fleet, and harpys for allinace.

[MAdnRisKy]

I'm getting tired of this now, but for the love of god k w learn how to argue. (how does knowing terran help you in any way to know about sentinals performance relative to other xan ships)

the sentinal was built because they had to be because it was the only c sink and people could not trade it very well. this does not mean it was a good ship, infact by xan standards it was a rather poor ship.

once again, you still haven't said how the wyvern can be used for attacking only that it can, please substantiate this point further (I want examples). For the record terrans should attack with pegs add chims if it's a xan player, they shouldn't bother hitting a zik unless they're a ****e zik in which case the reason you can hit them is not because "ziks are good terran targets" but because you found a n00b (and well done you there aren't many of them about these days). To be blunt if the target requires a lot of wyverns it's a bad target and you'd be advised to pick a better one. I;m glad you know terran well, it's a shame you don't know much about the other races though, it helps to expolit their weaknesses.

now stop syaing "because i know" and start saying " I know because of x y and z" (sub clause these can't include because others know or because it happened in the past)

[K-W]

Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
I'm getting tired of this now, but for the love of god k w learn how to argue. (how does knowing terran help you in any way to know about sentinals performance relative to other xan ships)

the sentinal was built because they had to be because it was the only c sink and people could not trade it very well. this does not mean it was a good ship, infact by xan standards it was a rather poor ship.

once again, you still haven't said how the wyvern can be used for attacking only that it can, please substantiate this point further (I want examples). For the record terrans should attack with pegs add chims if it's a xan player, they shouldn't bother hitting a zik unless they're a ****e zik in which case the reason you can hit them is not because "ziks are good terran targets" but because you found a n00b (and well done you there aren't many of them about these days). To be blunt if the target requires a lot of wyverns it's a bad target and you'd be advised to pick a better one. I;m glad you know terran well, it's a shame you don't know much about the other races though, it helps to expolit their weaknesses.

now stop syaing "because i know" and start saying " I know because of x y and z" (sub clause these can't include because others know or because it happened in the past)

Learn how to read. And dont give argument tips to someone you are having a hard time understanding.

You said, outsiders think sentinals are good due to thier numbers last round, but those who played it know better.

Thus your logic was that just because a ship was built doesnt mean it is any good, someone who played the race would know that.

I played terran, so I would know that, thus your example didnt apply to our discussion. Not to mention the fact that if a ship was built in mass it did serve some purpose, even if it was just a resource sink.

To make that clearer, I never talked about the sentinal, I talked about the wyvern which you were equating with it. So before you inslut me, get a friend to explain my posts to you.

MadnRisky, Im not interested in making fake battles up on a forum. Its not neccessary. Wyvern can be sent along with a peg fleet so that they target de/frig and scare off defence. THat way your eta 8 attack fleet targets de/fr/cr/fi. Its just about that simple.

And im sorry that you are scared of ziks. I will attack whatever gets me the best roids, and for a terran that can be a zik. WHen the zik is smaller than you and has not put together the perfect fleet. It goes with all races, no race cant attack another, in that discussion you are working with ideal fleets. You dont need a n00b to find a terran vulnerable zik.

I know how to play terran in a PA round, which is more important than staring at a stats page and coming up with theories.

To be bluff, tossing in a hard to kill eta 8 ship that targets two classes that your de fleet doesnt do is very good for many attacks. You are looking at a well designed fleet hitting another well designed fleet. Not many PA attacks work that way. Youve got the start of the round where many less skilled players get roided, these are not ideal fleet situations, and then later in the round you are hitting allaince players who get defence. Once the defence arrives you carefully calced fleet goes out the window. So you have to anticipate defence and send ships to scare def away, thus an eta 8 bs that targetes de and frig comes in handy. It also acts as great de def and contributes to fr def, making it a versitile and very useful ship.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by K-W
Learn how to read. And dont give argument tips to someone you are having a hard time understanding.

Regardless of how good your arguments you are, your not dealing with what has been actually said.

Mad has two main claims:

• [1] If we disregard ETA; Syren is better
  [2]. We can partly disregard ETA because these ships aren't needed in attacks. And he spefically asked to be showed wrong on this account.

Point 1 is pretty hard to argument against; and i'm pretty sure you agree with it.

However regarding point 2. You have been spefically asked to show it wrong; and have actually spefically refused to! You have written alot of good text in general about the Terrans; however whenever you approach the usefullness on the attack you end up saying 'it is so' and 'it has been proven' etc. Somehow those arguments aren't very convincing.

Now; i can see to reasons why you're not coming up with examples:

• You don't bother. In which case i'm wondering what you are doing discussing this at all.
• Because you can't come up with any. In which case mad is correct.

Any score spent/sent on attacks of wyverns means less pegasi. Given that fact I'm not happy including them just because they might be usefull.. In what situations are they really needed?

Having fr/de targetting might be important to avoid in-gal defence swapping yes. However to be really scary; you have to send a substantial % of score in vywerns.. So in my opinion this is a kinda moot point; as i'm not fond of sacrificing pegasi numbers without anything more than that to gain from it.

When attacking Terrans who have harpy/chimera/Pegasi they might come in handy against the chimeras.

When attacking Xands with Lancers/fireblades they'll be usefull..

Other examples on when they might provide usefull?

You asking for any reason to use Wyvern in an attack:

1. Cathaar with some more widows then usual (attack alone with FR and or DE roid fleet)

2. Ziks with less DE then usual (attack alone) or more (combined attack with a partner)

3. Xandri with a small Fr fleet (not very likely but may happen)

4. Terran (combined attack with partner)


In every combined attack against any target with DE/FR the Wyvern is the most usefull ship a Terran can have to attack with.

In every defence mission any BC will be glad to hear " i can send ****loads of Wyvern" agianst a DE/FR attack)

Regarding the argument Syrens are the better in galaxy def...yes but the scenario maddy admire won´t be the casual one.
On well planned attacks ingalaxy fleet swapping won´t have any use as most well planned attacks are combined ones like Cathaar/Terran on 1 Xand/Terran/Zik target or Xan/Terran on a 1 Cathaar/Zik.

@maddy the stats i used in the other thread are made from MKeeper.

Note:
This discusions looks like the nodrog topic about Tulas in r3

[black-eyed boy]

Originally posted by Jori.X.McKie
You asking for any reason to use Wyvern in an attack:

1. Cathaar with some more widows then usual (attack alone)

huh? Attacking with Fr fleet you mean?
That doesn't make sense - "some more widows than usual" suggests that you can't break through them with your Fr. So what you want to do is greatly reduce the number of Fr you send to add sufficient number of wyverns? (so that the cap is 15%).
No, it doesn't work

3. Xandri with a small Fr fleet (not very likely but may happen)

Xan with a small Fr fleet still has loads of Fi/Co that possess a bigger threat to you. Sending more pegs instead of wyverns will give better result.

4. Terran (combined attack with partner)

Shooting at what exactly? (Chims I take it).
Every decent terran's anti-de defence will be syrens or wyverns (syrens >>>> wyverns here ofcourse). So you missed again

In every combined attack against any target with DE/FR the Wyvern is the most usefull ship a Terran can have to attack with.

As zik planning to attack with clippers/rogues/demeters the most appreciated assistance I'd like to get would be pegs ofcourse.
You're being a bit weird there - see the underlined word in your quote. I could give you more examples where other ships and not wyverns would be of much more use for combined attacks.

In every defence mission any BC will be glad to hear " i can send ****loads of Wyvern" agianst a DE/FR attack)

Wyverns will be 1 tick later against De/Fr attack if you're lucky enough.
There are ships that are both more fast and more efficient at killing De.

I edit my post before i read your answer.

Against cathaar it will work.

Against Xand as i said it won´t be likely.

Against Zik it will work, when he is Fr heavy what is even likely as the De fleet.

Against Terran .... to kill his Pegs of course, so my partner (Cathaar/Xandri) can send Fi/co.

I say it again in every combined attack the Wyvern is one and only ship to kill DE/FR.
e.g. :Ziks will be slaughtered when i attack with a cathaar.......

There are better DE killers out there ... sure... but imagine you are Xandri with pulsar knowing your mate is attacked by pegs, by many pegs, face the losses and def ...
As terran i can take a laugh and send my Wyvern as they won´t be target so much what leads to less loss on my side.
ETA is an issue but the Wyvern is the best DE/FR with an ETA that will matter in Defence that a TERRAN has.
Syrens are even one tick slower and CR are targetted more then BS.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by Jori.X.McKie

Note:
This discusions looks like the nodrog topic about Tulas in r3

Who is who?

Not difficult to guess .. i´m pro wyvern so maddy is nodrog ...

/me is going to cover deep deep in his lair avoiding any hits by nodrog or maddy with their replies

[K-W]

Originally posted by hyfe
Regardless of how good your arguments you are, your not dealing with what has been actually said.

Mad has two main claims:

• [1] If we disregard ETA; Syren is better
  [2]. We can partly disregard ETA because these ships aren't needed in attacks. And he spefically asked to be showed wrong on this account.

Point 1 is pretty hard to argument against; and i'm pretty sure you agree with it.

However regarding point 2. You have been spefically asked to show it wrong; and have actually spefically refused to! You have written alot of good text in general about the Terrans; however whenever you approach the usefullness on the attack you end up saying 'it is so' and 'it has been proven' etc. Somehow those arguments aren't very convincing.

Now; i can see to reasons why you're not coming up with examples:

• You don't bother. In which case i'm wondering what you are doing discussing this at all.
• Because you can't come up with any. In which case mad is correct.

Any score spent/sent on attacks of wyverns means less pegasi. Given that fact I'm not happy including them just because they might be usefull.. In what situations are they really needed?

Having fr/de targetting might be important to avoid in-gal defence swapping yes. However to be really scary; you have to send a substantial % of score in vywerns.. So in my opinion this is a kinda moot point; as i'm not fond of sacrificing pegasi numbers without anything more than that to gain from it.

When attacking Terrans who have harpy/chimera/Pegasi they might come in handy against the chimeras.

When attacking Xands with Lancers/fireblades they'll be usefull..

Other examples on when they might provide usefull?

You have to spend score on an anti de ship or you will get roided by terrans forever. So youve got two choices, syren or wyvern, building more pegs is not a choice.

As far as wyverns in attacks. I really dont care what kind of evidence you think you need. People have had massive success attacking with them. Ive explained clearly how they help.

PA is not like the strategy forum. People get def. So you send a fleet that hits lots of classes, so that when they arrange def yours is hard to cover. Its quite simple. Its proven. There is no such thing as better proof than the fact that it has worked in the past. People can argue almost anything from some stats standpoint. What works is what works.

[MAdnRisKy]

OMG Germ, he said don't do what you just did because it's not proving anything, you don't need tips on how to argue, you need a complete make over

[K-W]

Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
OMG Germ, he said don't do what you just did because it's not proving anything, you don't need tips on how to argue, you need a complete make over

Oh no, two guys on the strategy forum think I i need to make over my arguing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Meanwhile perhaps you could try thinking of a picture bigger than efficiancy.

[MAdnRisKy]

This whole thread was about a bigger picture that encompasses more than just stats, did you read it?

[Moondoggie]

The problem with wyverns is that they aren't all that scary.

A cath isn't scared because his De and Fr do nothing to stop your wyverns. He actually does better because you wasted fleet score in a ship he doesn't have to worry about. Now there are less pegs to freeze, and fewer demeters to steal roids. It would take fewer defense to repulse your attack.

A xan isn't scared because its possible he has no frigates or destroyers anyway. Would have been better off including more pegs, which cause major damage to his fleet.

A de zik isn't scared because he'd cause mucho damage to your fleet, unless you sent a ridiculous number of wyverns, in which case you wont cap much. He'd probably flee anyway. If you put the wyverns in another fleet, you'd have to keep them there until the second combat tick, or he'd recall his fleet after you recalled your wyverns. In my opinion, it would have been better to let someone who could hit the zik easier pick this target.

A fr zik isn't scared because his fr do nothing to stop your pegs, would just send them away, and get fighter corvette defense to stop your pegs. (which there are fewer of because you bothered sending wyvern)

A terran would send away his pegs (which do nothing to your fleet anyway) and get small ships to stop your pegs.

Wyverns don't scare away fighters and corvettes, which are the most common ships sent in defense. Anything slower is only sent in cluster or para defense, and in those cases it wouldn't matter if the wyverns were there or not because you could see anything from fighters to battleships arriving in defense.

Pegs are scarier than wyvern
Syren are more useful than wyvern

[K-W]

Originally posted by Moondoggie
The problem with wyverns is that they aren't all that scary.

A cath isn't scared because his De and Fr do nothing to stop your wyverns. He actually does better because you wasted fleet score in a ship he doesn't have to worry about. Now there are less pegs to freeze, and fewer demeters to steal roids. It would take fewer defense to repulse your attack.

A xan isn't scared because its possible he has no frigates or destroyers anyway. Would have been better off including more pegs, which cause major damage to his fleet.

A de zik isn't scared because he'd cause mucho damage to your fleet, unless you sent a ridiculous number of wyverns, in which case you wont cap much. He'd probably flee anyway. If you put the wyverns in another fleet, you'd have to keep them there until the second combat tick, or he'd recall his fleet after you recalled your wyverns. In my opinion, it would have been better to let someone who could hit the zik easier pick this target.

A fr zik isn't scared because his fr do nothing to stop your pegs, would just send them away, and get fighter corvette defense to stop your pegs. (which there are fewer of because you bothered sending wyvern)

A terran would send away his pegs (which do nothing to your fleet anyway) and get small ships to stop your pegs.

Wyverns don't scare away fighters and corvettes, which are the most common ships sent in defense. Anything slower is only sent in cluster or para defense, and in those cases it wouldn't matter if the wyverns were there or not because you could see anything from fighters to battleships arriving in defense.

Pegs are scarier than wyvern
Syren are more useful than wyvern

Like a couple people on this thread. You are making the absolutely baseless assumption that all attacks are one fleet. And that sending wyvern means sending less pegs. What you are ignoring is the fact that once the round turns into alliance on alliance fighting, you always assume defence and send a bashing fleet. THis fleet can have as much score as you want, its not going to land unless there is defense.

Therefore your entire argument makes no sense in light of how the game is actually played. ANd btw, there are times when a 1 fleet peg/wyv mix is a good thing, it depends on fleet composition. Another silly assumption everyone is making is that all players use ideal fleets.

This thread is about the overall picture, not just ship stats, yet you syren folk are drowinging in stats. You cant see that the overall picture, the way the game is actually played, makes the syren useless and the wyvern useful.

Syren are simply useless, they are pds to sit at home and fire at ships youve already got other ships to fire at. Wyvern are a great addition to bashing fleets on attacks, and they are perfectly good at fending off DE attacks. Maybe a terran who is constantly being attacked and has to be self reliant will need the syrens defending power. But anyone whos in an alliance and attacks alliance members is wasting resources on a pds ship.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by K-W
And that sending wyvern means sending less pegs.

If you build more of one ship; you get less of another ship. That has been my general experience with PA atleast.

Another silly assumption everyone is making is that all players use ideal fleets.

And which ships will you meet in significant numbers that you'll need that targetting? (any fleet! not the ideal one...)

Xands build pulsar instead of Lancers. A few xands build a few fireblades. However i've yet to see a decent target with these. IMO: xands have no ship worth targetting in fr/de.

Terrans have chimeras. You may meet them in-gal defence; or your target may have them. However; in 99% of the cases syrens/wyverns will be your main problem when hitting Terrans. Given that most players send fi/co for defence; i somehow doubt we will see chimares in significant numbers very often. IMO: Terrans have one FR worth targetting; and it will most likely be built in decent numbers (for flak and before DE)

Caths have no fr/de that is dangerous to your fleet.

Ziks have ****loads of dangerous DE. They will be built in large numbers and are certainly better at targetting you than you are at targetting them

my Summary:
Against terrans two main targets; de/fr targgeting is next to worthless.

Scaring off in-gal defence might be worth it though; however i am of the opinion that you need alot CR/BS for that to actually work, and you'd just be better off with more pegs in the first place then.

[K-W]

Originally posted by hyfe
If you build more of one ship; you get less of another ship. That has been my general experience with PA atleast.


And which ships will you meet in significant numbers that you'll need that targetting? (any fleet! not the ideal one...)

Xands build pulsar instead of Lancers. A few xands build a few fireblades. However i've yet to see a decent target with these. IMO: xands have no ship worth targetting in fr/de.

Terrans have chimeras. You may meet them in-gal defence; or your target may have them. However; in 99% of the cases syrens/wyverns will be your main problem when hitting Terrans. Given that most players send fi/co for defence; i somehow doubt we will see chimares in significant numbers very often. IMO: Terrans have one FR worth targetting; and it will most likely be built in decent numbers (for flak and before DE)

Caths have no fr/de that is dangerous to your fleet.

Ziks have ****loads of dangerous DE. They will be built in large numbers and are certainly better at targetting you than you are at targetting them

my Summary:
Against terrans two main targets; de/fr targgeting is next to worthless.

Scaring off in-gal defence might be worth it though; however i am of the opinion that you need alot CR/BS for that to actually work, and you'd just be better off with more pegs in the first place then.

I dont quite get your point. Yes youd get the most pegs if you built only pegs... but why would you do that.

Maybe we are arguing from different standpoints here. I am advising players who plan to be fairly large, and thus can afford to have a sizeable wyvern fleet. If a player is small and cant build an effective wyvern fleet, then I suppose they should just stick with de roiding and build whatever best covers their buts.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by K-W
You are making the absolutely baseless assumption that all attacks are one fleet. And that sending wyvern means sending less pegs.

Originally posted by K-W
I dont quite get your point. Yes youd get the most pegs if you built only pegs... but why would you do that.

see my point?
more pegasi to send -> less wyverns to send.
more wyverns to send -> less pegasi to send.

Originally posted by K-W
I am advising players who plan to be fairly large, and thus can afford to have a sizeable wyvern fleet.

Just because you can afford it doesn't mean you should build it...(unless you're so far gone into the round that one side has already won and you can build whatever you want)

I'm still quite hung up on which ships/fleet you want to target though. You say people doesn't have perfect fleets: give some examples on inperfect fleets then? I'd love some actual input from you on when the wyvern actually is usefull. You said you used them last round..when? how? what where the results? did you meet less in-gal fr/de defense? did the lack of pegs cause you to meet fi defense more often?

We do not believe they are usefull for attacks. If you do not want to persuade us otherwise; we can agree to disagree and let this rest....

However; just to get everything clear; when arguing from the perspectice that they aren't; really few of your arguments actually make any difference. And the other arguments you have given i don't consider enough to outweigh the disadvantage of less pegasi; not to mention that your continues request to believe you on case of your experience surely rubs some of the wrong way