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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 09:36   #1
Jackie
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Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

As the game has changed into a new kind in which there are 2 possible ways to play the game I think a few options should also be changed.

The Bash limit is currently based on value. Which means someone going for excessive XP will be able to hit a value player and overtake him in score, yet the value player is still unable to do something back. While (most) agree that Xp should stay and be a playing style, I think the bashlimit should be changed into score based (and value based), to make it more fair. XP players are currently too protected.

Same goes for the alliance fund. Currently people with low value in alliances can get donated to built up, this is in my opinion meant to help the weaker players in an alliance, yet players who chose the XP way can also be donated, even if they have the biggest score (which counts in the end) of the entire alliance, they still can recieve these donations. I don't think the alliance fund was meant for this.

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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 09:42   #2
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

I think a similar bash limit to the xp formula makes sense. That means include both score and value. Bash limit=40% of value plus 40% of score all divided by two.

I don't think either is too relevant as you won't see many xp players with scores over 6 million this round.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 09:45   #3
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie
Same goes for the alliance fund. Currently people with low value in alliances can get donated to built up, this is in my opinion meant to help the weaker players in an alliance, yet players who chose the XP way can also be donated, even if they have the biggest score (which counts in the end) of the entire alliance, they still can recieve these donations. I don't think the alliance fund was meant for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manual
Donations are delayed by 8 ticks from the alliance fund to the planet and cannot be cancelled once donated. The planet being donated to cannot be above the alliance average value OR alliance average score, and can only recieve a maximum of int((1 +($tick -72)/13) * 100000) resources total. Donations to a planet who is already in a donation process is forbidden.
Relevant page here, emphasis mine.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 09:45   #4
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Bash limit was introduced so people with much larger fleets wouldn't roid/bash small people who stood no chance against their fleet. With score as the deciding factor, that point will become obsolete.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 10:45   #5
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Bash limit was introduced so people with much larger fleets wouldn't roid/bash small people who stood no chance against their fleet. With score as the deciding factor, that point will become obsolete.
yes and it was also introduced before these people could get to over double the person with the large fleets score....

If people with small fleets can get so big you have to make it people going value can attack them back..
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 10:52   #6
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stifler
yes and it was also introduced before these people could get to over double the person with the large fleets score....

If people with small fleets can get so big you have to make it people going value can attack them back..
I agree, the bash limit is too rigid. Ideally, incentive to attack upwards is all that's actually needed. The new XP formula provides something of this by including score (thus making it doubly negative to 'bash' small players), while still rewarding actual upward attacks similarly to the old formula.

If I read Jackie's suggestion correctly, that you can hit anyone over either with value at 40% of your value, or score at 40% of your score, then I think this is a fairly good formula. It's simple, and it keeps the spirit of the old bash limit.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 11:03   #7
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

What about: Anyone below you in rankings (scorewise) can attack you and anyone ahead of you in rankings must be within the usual 40% valuewise bashlimit to attack you? Sounds like a fair option to me.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 11:14   #8
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
What about: Anyone below you in rankings (scorewise) can attack you and anyone ahead of you in rankings must be within the usual 40% valuewise bashlimit to attack you? Sounds like a fair option to me.
I prefer the version I outlined, it means you can attack people who are under your value bashlimit but have yet to pass you rankwise. Your idea encourages some fairly absurd speculation by high ranked players. For example, if you see someone racing up the ranks to catch you, you're better off hoarding resources for a few days so you can drop your rank and attack them, rather than build ships and try to hold your position.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 11:36   #9
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

I'd go for give 0 XP for attacking anyone under your bash limit, but remove the hard coded bash limit.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 11:38   #10
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

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Originally Posted by XelNaga
I'd go for give 0 XP for attacking anyone under your bash limit, but remove the hard coded bash limit.
This is a good suggestion as well.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 11:39   #11
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNaga
I'd go for give 0 XP for attacking anyone under your bash limit, but remove the hard coded bash limit.
People bash for roids not for xp. Your solution is the same as saying remove the bash limit but make hitting under it only 95% as effective.


PS Are we still talking about a pure value bash limit here?
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 11:43   #12
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quite frankly, you don't get enough roids from bashing, and I doubt anyone would do that, and people would only "bash" against XP whores.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 11:45   #13
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNaga
Quite frankly, you don't get enough roids from bashing, and I doubt anyone would do that, and people would only "bash" against XP whores.
Did you play PA before r10?
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 11:47   #14
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Did you play PA before r10?
PA before r10 didn't have any reward for hitting above the bashlimit.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 11:52   #15
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
PA before r10 didn't have any reward for hitting above the bashlimit.
Yeah but now that we've so successfully nerfed xp it's not going to affect the sort of players likely to bash.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 11:57   #16
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Yeah but now that we've so successfully nerfed xp it's not going to affect the sort of players likely to bash.
The people likely to bash weren't going to be affected pre-nerf anyway. I'm sure Wakey will back me up on this.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 12:03   #17
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
The people likely to bash weren't going to be affected pre-nerf anyway. I'm sure Wakey will back me up on this.
I'm confused. Aren't you supporting my point that people who like shit bashing get to do even shittier shit bashing now?
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 12:17   #18
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I'm confused. Aren't you supporting my point that people who like shit bashing get to do even shittier shit bashing now?
The bash limit's definition of bashing and my definition of bashing differ. I don't really care that much about how well protected newbies are from big, bad idiots. Unfortunately, the bash limit promotes what I consider to be bad behavior.

What I consider bashing is repeatedly hitting the same target, particularly where one has an advantage that is unlikely to be equalized in the near future. For example, the bash limit promotes serial farming of big hostile planets by the winning alliance's top players. It promotes targeting brackets, in which raising your value (not your size!) puts you out of old targeting brackets and into new ones.

Without XP capping the easiest roids is the best strategy. With XP there is incentive to go for higher risk roids on a regular basis.

I think the key is the lack scalability. The bash limit works great for keeping top100 value players away from the inactive people who login once a day, but occasionally score a fat landing, but it doesn't keep the inactive people who login once a day from crapping all over other people who login once a day. (Among other things, on the lower tiers value isn't as directly related to amount of ships as it is higher up.)
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 15:44   #19
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
I agree, the bash limit is too rigid. Ideally, incentive to attack upwards is all that's actually needed. The new XP formula provides something of this by including score (thus making it doubly negative to 'bash' small players), while still rewarding actual upward attacks similarly to the old formula.

If I read Jackie's suggestion correctly, that you can hit anyone over either with value at 40% of your value, or score at 40% of your score, then I think this is a fairly good formula. It's simple, and it keeps the spirit of the old bash limit.
This was the version I was happiest at implementing, tbh.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 15:50   #20
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
This was the version I was happiest at implementing, tbh.
Does this mean you have implemented a new bash limit?
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 15:51   #21
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

No, but reading through it's possibly the best option
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 15:57   #22
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
No, but reading through it's possibly the best option
Does this mean you're going to or might change the bash limit in future?
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 16:48   #23
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

I've just added it to the beta server to see how it goes. I'll message everyone ingame with the results tonight/tomorrow, so there is still some warning and everyone is notified of the precise changes.
To summarise, we now have that the person has to be less than 40% of your value AND 40% of your score (not just 40% of your value) to not be a viable target.

Basically it allows those with a much higher score than value to be targetted.

edited for clarity
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 16:51   #24
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
To summarise, we now have that the person has to be less than 40% of your value AND 40% of your score, not just 40% of your value.
I assume you mean that they have to be less than 40% of value AND score to be protected?
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 16:53   #25
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

that's what i said (gotta love that edit ability)
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 18:38   #26
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Ok, let me begin by saying I HATE XPwhoring. In my oppinion, it's abusing a loophole in the rules, allowing experienced players to, basically, pretend to be noobs in order to gain the noob protections. This is low-down dirty play, imo. So I would be very happy if the change discussed above would be implemented, But let me warn you all...

If this happens, XPwhoring is effectively DEAD. XPwhores will be constantly getting incomming, constantly getting retalliated, and constantly getting fleetcaught. The XP will still be there, but the XPwhores won't be able to keep ships to get it. I Love It, but you must be warned that you will be getting yelled at from all sides for this change. Please, stay strong, Draw the Line, Put down the Foot, or whatever metaphor you want to use. This will be the greatest thing that's happened to this game since I started playing again, if y'all can keep with it.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 19:08   #27
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bromcrysal
Ok, let me begin by saying I HATE XPwhoring. In my oppinion, it's abusing a loophole in the rules, allowing experienced players to, basically, pretend to be noobs in order to gain the noob protections. This is low-down dirty play, imo. So I would be very happy if the change discussed above would be implemented, But let me warn you all...
If it was a loophole it would have been shut after the first round with XP as anyone was/could be aware of the potential. No one never tried it out on a big scale before. So no abuse or loop-hole for you mister.
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 19:13   #28
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

On a large scale you mean a whole alliance? Or someone dedicated to keeping their value low enough to hit noobs that happen to have roids?
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 20:42   #29
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee-
On a large scale you mean a whole alliance? Or someone dedicated to keeping their value low enough to hit noobs that happen to have roids?
A whole alliance. XPwh0res has been around forever, but they never organised* like this before.

*Not that we had much organisation in Ascendancy, but you know what I mean
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Unread 11 Apr 2006, 21:18   #30
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

I am for it.

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Unread 12 Apr 2006, 18:32   #31
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
If it was a loophole it would have been shut after the first round with XP as anyone was/could be aware of the potential. No one never tried it out on a big scale before. So no abuse or loop-hole for you mister.
It's my belief that, tho XPwhoring was a loophole, it wasn't shut because it was very popular, or at least is was popular with people who were very loud. But, as I said, it's just an oppinion. And since they've apparently decided to go with the new value and score -based bashlimit, it has now been effectively shut.

So, allow me to shout it out one more time (before everything gets changed next round): Value FTW!!
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Unread 12 Apr 2006, 23:55   #32
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bromcrysal
It's my belief that, tho XPwhoring was a loophole, it wasn't shut because it was very popular, or at least is was popular with people who were very loud. But, as I said, it's just an oppinion. And since they've apparently decided to go with the new value and score -based bashlimit, it has now been effectively shut.

So, allow me to shout it out one more time (before everything gets changed next round): Value FTW!!
I understand what you say, but it still isn't a loophole. It's as much of a loophole as what value is, or what a vsharrak is.
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Unread 13 Apr 2006, 08:01   #33
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
I understand what you say, but it still isn't a loophole. It's as much of a loophole as what value is, or what a vsharrak is.
well, I must say we differ in oppinion here... But let's see what happens this round. If the Bashlimit and XP Formula stay the way they are right now, then it will be Really hard to XPwhore succuessfully this round. So we'll see what happens in R17, and compare it with what might be considered the other extreme, R16. And with that evidence in hand, I'll be happy to discuss this subject again. gl in R17!
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Unread 13 Apr 2006, 09:56   #34
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Re: Bash Limit & Alliance Fund

I'm not playing, so I wouldn't have the slighest clue about the outcome. But if it's 10x now instead of 20x, XPwh0res wont have a future in r17 I think.
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