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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 05:48   #1
Appanouki
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PA auto-signout

Is there a reason why PA automatically signs you out every 2 hours? can there be an option feature on this? I'm just wondering because if it wasnt there it wouldnt be hard for someone to write a desktop program like GmailNotifier for your account!
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 05:50   #2
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Re: PA auto-signout

security, if you close the browser window and wander off somewhere, if it didnt log you out anyone could access your account by entering http://game.planetarion.com/overview.pl or another page.
also helps prevent bots by forcing them to log in repeatedly and run through the bot stopper each time
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 05:51   #3
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Re: PA auto-signout

so for security concerns there could just be an option in preference about how long to leave you logged in.

but the bots is another issue... is there no other way to do this?
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 05:53   #4
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Re: PA auto-signout

its the best way really, and if the user can choose how long to stay logged in for - so can the bots.
forcing the issue is the best solution
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 05:54   #5
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Re: PA auto-signout

I see :/ ah well. it would have been cool to have an incoming notifier haha
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 06:05   #6
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Re: PA auto-signout

there still is a way to beat the auto-logout and question system, its not a 100% gurantee of working everytime but it will work.

Either get a group of people or by yourself go through login questions and write down each one you encounter over a period of time.

Focus on the higher percentage of question appearance, program that into the bot. If none of those questions are in the bot, then have the bot auto-answer anything.

After 3 failed attempts have the bot take a small 5min break or whatever amount of time is necessary to you, and repeat the process again till your bot is in.

Once again it would take time to do, so whoever has the time to do this is either disturbed, leads a sad life, or needs beat for deliberating cheating at this level.
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 06:09   #7
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Re: PA auto-signout

theres a problem being you have to beat the anti-ocr measures on the bot stopper image, it isnt plain text which can be just read.
plus all failed attempts are logged, and detected so the bot would be flagged even if it takes a break after every few fails
furthermore, the questions asked arent prioritised in any way, it just asks a random question so you would need to store them all
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 06:24   #8
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Re: PA auto-signout

yes, but you can get the codes to the images. when you can get the code it can be read from that. i atleast fail 5-10 times a day on logins simply becuase i don't know the capitals of european countries and other odd questions, so there is an accetable limit, just need to learn it. even if the questions are random there still in lies probability and you can create a percentage of what questions appear.

now you may say "but if you take the time to learn almost all the questions, why not program those into the bot as well"... to answer that, if you add all those questions then you have less of a chance to answer a correct question becuase now your odds double against you. by focusing on the higher percentage questions and play chance you end up with greater odds to guess the correct question, since there is less for the bot to predict from. also by taking the break in between your making it look another login attempt, not a successive attempt which would be the behavior of a typical bot trying to login.

this would work, just take time, and not work 100%, you may end up waiting an hour to login... but still possible
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 06:35   #9
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Re: PA auto-signout

the code numbers for the images are generated on-the-fly, and discarded after x time. you cant use the code numbers to track which image is which question.
the only static part of the image url is the persons userid number and the url to the image generator.

as for their being an upper limit of fails, i presume you mean the automatic limit of wrong answers before the account is closed for 24h?
The accounts arent logged when they are closed only, every single incorrect answer, the question which was asked and the answer given are logged - along with the time and date of it happening , the user id of the account and the ip address used
its not something you can easily get around by waiting a while before trying again

as for focusing on the higher percentage questions : the problem is there IS no preference for certain questions. they are asked entirely at random and so you're just as likely to be asked a different question then you are one in a small subset. the probability of getting a certain question is STILL 1 / number of questions regardless of how frequently statistical chance brings a question up.
its perfectly feasible for the same question to be asked twice in successive login attempts and have a different picture id code which is used for each.
as for the break, if a person fails a login, they wait at MOST about 5-10 seconds before trying again. not a couple of minutes
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 06:52   #10
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Re: PA auto-signout

A lot of the time I dont feel as though it is very random at all. There was a while in round 14 where I'm pretty sure for about two-three weeks every answer was either 99, 20, or oslo.
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 07:01   #11
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Re: PA auto-signout

lol

Thats interesting stuff Phil, and thanks for responding to this thread quickly. If at anytime a better way for bot stoppage is devised, let us know so we can make a PA desktop tool!
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 07:04   #12
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Re: PA auto-signout

Oslo rawks! :-p
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Unread 19 Jan 2006, 15:08   #13
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Re: PA auto-signout

wouldnt a email notifier be against the rules anyway?
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 06:11   #14
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Re: PA auto-signout

hahahahhaha, what are you? a lawyer?
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 07:59   #15
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appanouki
hahahahhaha, what are you? a lawyer?
He's a lawyer for obeying the rules. Are you a cheater for trying to find a way to circumvent them?
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 11:19   #16
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
security, if you close the browser window and wander off somewhere, if it didnt log you out anyone could access your account by entering http://game.planetarion.com/overview.pl or another page.
Unless somebody made a big screwup with doing PAX, that shouldnt be possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazypyro
Either get a group of people or by yourself go through login questions and write down each one you encounter over a period of time.

Focus on the higher percentage of question appearance, program that into the bot. If none of those questions are in the bot, then have the bot auto-answer anything.
Its not that hard to parse the graphic and get the text question from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
theres a problem being you have to beat the anti-ocr measures on the bot stopper image, it isnt plain text which can be just read.
Those anti-ocr measures dont really work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
plus all failed attempts are logged, and detected so the bot would be flagged even if it takes a break after every few fails
My bot never did failed attempts - it simply didnt answer when it didnt _knew_ the answer. Cases like that where logged including the gfx file.

I could describe how to solve the "unknown question" case for automatic login, but then again i guess this shouldnt be a cheaters-how-to course
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 12:14   #17
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
Unless somebody made a big screwup with doing PAX, that shouldnt be possible.
It is, try it for yourself. log into pa, close all browser windows and then open one to overview.pl.
since the login cookie is still valid - it lets you straight through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
My bot never did failed attempts - it simply didnt answer when it didnt _knew_ the answer. Cases like that where logged including the gfx file.
Hmm not sure if that would be picked up on, a non-answer. If it isnt then its something pateam should really implement.
from what i remember, incorrect answers were all logged

theres also other data which gets picked up on, through the login cookie - so it should be trivial for a "last qu asked" id to be inserted into it and if that id wasnt answered - flag it
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 13:40   #18
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
from what i remember, incorrect answers were all logged
They are & we do ofcs take suspision to lots of incorrect answers.
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 17:53   #19
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Re: PA auto-signout

Is tnere a way to just rewrite the expiry date on your PA login cookie then?
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 18:36   #20
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Re: PA auto-signout

Asking the PA admins for ways to cheat isn't a good idea.
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 18:38   #21
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appanouki
I see :/ ah well. it would have been cool to have an incoming notifier haha
And exactly those incoming (or any other pa-related) notifiers are against the rules. Guess why we have these anti-bot measures in place.
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Unread 20 Jan 2006, 18:40   #22
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appanouki
Is there a reason why PA automatically signs you out every 2 hours? can there be an option feature on this? I'm just wondering because if it wasnt there it wouldnt be hard for someone to write a desktop program like GmailNotifier for your account!
I havent played pa for some time, but isnt this just encouraging the use of bots?
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Unread 21 Jan 2006, 08:53   #23
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Re: PA auto-signout

ahh, the good old forums of PA... it all comes back to me now why I just can't really stand it here. There's always some knob-end with a pathetic reason to try and snub every last thread ever created.

There is a saying about creative, contructive critique and its contrast with deconstructive, counter-effective contributions which I can't recall off the top of my head, but describes you two quite well. You wouldn't last a second in a business related brainstorming actiivity.

Long live human creativity! May it thrive far from here. Good luck making something imaginative and interesting with your lives.
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Unread 21 Jan 2006, 08:56   #24
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Re: PA auto-signout

its better to kill off a bad idea then it is to promote it.
calling people knob-ends because theyve picked apart your suggestion and exposed its flaws is rather immature.

( as for rewriting the expiry date on the cookie - its doable but the server will just turn around and say " nope, that expiry date doesnt match up with what ive got for it - consider your session terminated so log in again )
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Unread 21 Jan 2006, 08:59   #25
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Re: PA auto-signout

Philip, this is not about just this thread. This is about the death of all threads here on this forum. Perhaps you have grown unaware and numb of it from your what... 2,100 posts (good god.), but trust me its here and its very stiffling. I appreciate your quick responses though, like it alot actually

edit: besides, you still have not described why a desktop incoming notifier is so bad other than the fact that it is against the 'PA law'.

Last edited by Appanouki; 21 Jan 2006 at 09:05.
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Unread 21 Jan 2006, 09:08   #26
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Re: PA auto-signout

if the fact its against the eula isnt enough - its a simple step away from simply automating it so it gathers and sends defence automatically.
ie - bots.
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Unread 21 Jan 2006, 09:18   #27
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Re: PA auto-signout

no that point is well taken, but clearly indistinguishable to some. Well to be fair their other traits let them down more.
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Unread 21 Jan 2006, 16:05   #28
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Re: PA auto-signout

Its against the rules because it would give people an unfair advantage of others, its as simple as that
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Unread 21 Jan 2006, 19:04   #29
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Re: PA auto-signout

Not to worry Stifler, your pissing on my thread extinguished my interest some time ago now. Another job well done!
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Unread 21 Jan 2006, 19:46   #30
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
its better to kill off a bad idea then it is to promote it.
calling people knob-ends because theyve picked apart your suggestion and exposed its flaws is rather immature.
pretty much sums it up
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Unread 21 Jan 2006, 20:32   #31
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appanouki
Is tnere a way to just rewrite the expiry date on your PA login cookie then?
it is possible to edit cookies, yes - but we took that into account when designing the cookie and we can detect tampering.
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 03:54   #32
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Re: PA auto-signout

what's a Knob-End?

sorry, I'm an american
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 04:11   #33
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Re: PA auto-signout

Let's be honest Phil, if someone really wants to cheat and knows how to code then these simple measures can't stop him. To be frank, the anti-ocr measures these login pictures have only annoy people who try to figure out if the x in 1x+8=? is 8 or 0. I failed countless number of logins because I had a shitty monitor, heh.

PA has a very small community and most people are extremely active. There would be no point in bots now that we have alliance etas, people can just report incomings in their galaxy and alliances can call people and wake them up to send defence or stuff like that. In addition alliances run out of their fleets anyway, there is no way one member of an alliance wouldn't have all his 3 fleets flying at 8 am in the morning. Of course bots could mean better fleetusage but it'd still not influence much. Plus the multihunters are rather strict about IPs and stuff like that, I honestly think that even if there were any cheating in this game, it would be rather pointless in the general picture and wouldn't change as much as cheating did in round4, for example, when LDK just couldn't be hit because of roid/defencefarm galaxies.

Phil, you're just paranoid, noone even bothers to cheat, the game is hardcore enough anyway.
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 05:35   #34
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Re: PA auto-signout

I would expect someone like you to say as much.

Fact is - people do cheat, if you had ever been a multihunter you would know that

yes, if people know precisely how to - its nigh impossible to detect if they have a core of people to back each other up but any measure to detect people who do cheat is better then none.

If being accused of paranoia is the price for actually being willing to do all you can to ensure people play fair, then so be it. I dont have to be in the morally ambiguous area that you are where "its ok for things to be potentially abused to cheat because no-one bothers to"
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 11:28   #35
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Re: PA auto-signout

It's because that it's now so hard to cheat that people don't cheat on the scale that they used to. It's a ridiculous fallacy to presume from that that if we lax our controls, people won't return to cheating.
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 14:39   #36
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by HK
Phil, you're just paranoid, noone even bothers to cheat, the game is hardcore enough anyway.
\o/

You obviously are abit nieve on the subject

People DO cheat. They DO get caught for it, thus proving the fact it goes on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
If being accused of paranoia is the price for actually being willing to do all you can to ensure people play fair, then so be it. I dont have to be in the morally ambiguous area that you are where "its ok for things to be potentially abused to cheat because no-one bothers to"
Listen to what Phil^ is saying. Would you leave a pot of gold on your doorstep because "I live in a nice village in a nice area, no one would nick it?"

Good faith is often prayed upon by those who want to exploit others for thier own benefit.
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 14:56   #37
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appanouki
ahh, the good old forums of PA... it all comes back to me now why I just can't really stand it here. There's always some knob-end with a pathetic reason to try and snub every last thread ever created.

There is a saying about creative, contructive critique and its contrast with deconstructive, counter-effective contributions which I can't recall off the top of my head, but describes you two quite well. You wouldn't last a second in a business related brainstorming actiivity.

Long live human creativity! May it thrive far from here. Good luck making something imaginative and interesting with your lives.
Bye then, and dont come back., thanks for stopping by.
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 16:12   #38
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Re: PA auto-signout

knob-end
Noun.

1. The head of a penis.
2. A contemptible person.
3. The very end of something. E.g."Ok, I'll eat the knob-end of the bread, the crusty bits are my favourite."

Presumably being used here in the second form.
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 18:18   #39
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Re: PA auto-signout

Or maybe the first...
thanks
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Unread 22 Jan 2006, 18:19   #40
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Re: PA auto-signout

The cookies don't single handedly handle the remembering when you close the browser; your authentication is stored in the database.

Only one account can have an active session at one time.

Try logging into pa on internet explorer. Then login on firefox. Click a page in internet explorer, and presto you've been 'logged out'.
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Unread 23 Jan 2006, 05:50   #41
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
They are & we do ofcs take suspision to lots of incorrect answers.
Uh oh. I constantly get those math questions wrong. Half the time it looks like a + when its a - or a *, The other half is just my poor math skills and I am too lazy to use the calculator.

We all hate the bot stopper but due to human nature it's needed.
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You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.

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Unread 23 Jan 2006, 13:13   #42
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Re: PA auto-signout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Uh oh. I constantly get those math questions wrong. Half the time it looks like a + when its a - or a *, The other half is just my poor math skills and I am too lazy to use the calculator.

We all hate the bot stopper but due to human nature it's needed.
hehe don't worry yourself making boobs if you were able to see the list you would see that I am one of the guilty ones for constantly getting them wrong! Usually because I can't add up or spell And so are some other members of PATeam I could mention but I wont :eek:
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