A bullet is too kind for some people

[G.K Zhukov]

like these men: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4591725.stm

[Marilyn Manson]

I expected this to be about a child rapist, or a Serb or Rwandan war criminal or something, not a bumbling 69 year-old Austrian who had made a bit of an ass of himself. But then, of course, I didn't take fully into consideration that the thread was made by Zhukov.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Unless they've been really badly translated, I don't really see anything wrong with what he said. He wasn't expressing sympathy or support for the Nazi Party, he was saying that it was wrong to persecute ordinary people who were members of the nazi party.

Last month, he said his father was a member of Adolf Hitler's Nazi party like "more than 99%" of Austrians".

[Marilyn Manson]

He also referred to Austrian deserters of Nazi Germany's armed forces as "assassins of battle comrades".

He had said he would relinquish his seat amid pressure from all sides after he deplored the "brutal persecution" of Austrian Nazis after World War II.

Both of those are quite mongchopy. Although I'm not sure if the BBC is accurately conveying what he meant in the second one.

Anyway, Austria has always been a country of hicks, and probably always will be, so I'm not particularly shocked or anything.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

Both of those are quite mongchopy. Although I'm not sure if the BBC is accurately conveying what he meant in the second one.

You called me a mongchop earlier, so I'm going to assume it is, in fact, a complement.

His second statement is so ambiguous as to be meaningless, at least in this translation. The first one is perfectly true.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

You called me a mongchop earlier, so I'm going to assume it is, in fact, a complement.

Actually, I called both of us mongchops.

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

The first one is perfectly true.

Well, it neither conveys that deserters were deserting an army which was supporting a totalitarian, genocidal dictatorship, or an army which had at some points participated in said genocide. Nor does it convey that these people were deserting from a war which their side had already lost. Nor does it do justice to the fact that these people hoped for a swifter resolution to the war, not the salughter of their own side, as it implies. It was the warmongers in Berlin who were slaughtering "battle comrades", as they had been since day one, not deserters.

So in that sense it's an idiotic misrepresentation of the full facts as much as anything else. The signs that the Nazis hung around the necks of men they'd lynched in Berlin during the final days of the war, such as "I helped the Bolsheviks" are, taken at their logical extreme, true, but these have to be placed in some kind of context or they become meaningless.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Unless they've been really badly translated, I don't really see anything wrong with what he said. He wasn't expressing sympathy or support for the Nazi Party, he was saying that it was wrong to persecute ordinary people who were members of the nazi party.

So one should only punish the aliens who were members of the nazi party?

And playing a part of histories largest genocide is ofc better than Rwanda?!? Heh.

[Loz]

I was expecting another thread about chavs - this guy said something a bit silly.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

And playing a part of histories largest genocide is ofc better than Rwanda?!? Heh.

I wasn't aware that this fellow personally masterminded the Final Solution. Although I don't know the man's exact backgrond, it seems to me that his only 'crime' has been to say something you disagree with.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

So one should only punish the aliens who were members of the nazi party?

And playing a part of histories largest genocide is ofc better than Rwanda?!? Heh.

I'd hope we all think that expressing support for grassroots members of a massive organisation which was decidedly evil and genocidal is better than actually being a member (high-ranking as MM implies) in a massive organisation which was decidedly evil and genocidal.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I'd hope we all think that expressing support for grassroots members of a massive organisation which was decidedly evil and genocidal is better than actually being a member (high-ranking as MM implies) in a massive organisation which was decidedly evil and genocidal.

1) I belive its correct to punish even grassroot members of such organisations.
2) Certainly, the more up you are, the more responsible are you.
3) This Siegfried Kampl indicates that ordinary nazi members were punished strictly in Austria. If the nazi members in Austria were treated roughly the same as in Germany, Denmark and Norway (whom Im roughly familar with) they were treated very well, perhaps too well. Most didnt get any reaction at all. I dont think its likely that the austrian nazis were treated more harshly, considering the widespread "collaboration" and support for nazism in Austria.
It's a clever way of revisioning history for you needs.

Mr. Kampl isnt alone in showing support for nazis in Austria, it is not that long ago since Jörg Haider was cought partying with SS Veterans. Maybe this is becouse austrians havent taken a serious "fight" with their past?

Putting him on the diet of Birkenau inmates may teach him some respect for the people who suffered under people like his father.

[JonnyBGood]

Yes, but he's not a grassroots supporter of the organisation. He once expressed support for them in what he viewed as unfair persecution of them. I'm not saying what he said was great and brilliant, however it is not as bad as actually participating in genocide.

[Deepflow]

it's utterly absurd to punish grassroots members of such organisations to any large extent. They would almost certainly be "brainwashed" to at least a certain extent, and i don't think they should be answerable to what they did (at least in the context of the duration of the war). ofc most people will think otherwise, but then most people are stupid, so make of that what you will.

[Snurx]

Haider and his pals has a track-record of hanging with various shades of brown, and also giving statements who could easily fall into the category of racism or culturalsuperiorism.

Deserting from a army or group when you don't like or support their views is not backstabbing, it's sensible. Anybody who joined a nazilike army would get the same treatment from me in a wartime sitatuion. Being forced into something is not a excuse for doing things like they did.

Originally Posted by Deepflow

it's utterly absurd to punish grassroots members of such organisations to any large extent. They would almost certainly be "brainwashed" to at least a certain extent, and i don't think they should be answerable to what they did (at least in the context of the duration of the war). ofc most people will think otherwise, but then most people are stupid, so make of that what you will.

Hitler might have been a evil bastard, but without the support of ordinary people he would probably not have gotten into power. Those people are partly responsible for what happened, at least when his intentions/views were pretty clear from the start. (His views on non-arians, his love for the other fascists and their violence and so on)
Being brainwashed is not a valid reason for helping in the killing of thousands of innocents.

[SYMM]

Shooting him is obviously the answer, how can you people not see that it would make everything right?
:|

[roadrunner_0]

to me, the first guys comments are not as bad as the other guy mentioned in that article, the guy who claimed that the existence of the gas chambers had yet to be proved... now he should be forced to resign :/

[SYMM]

Everytime someone says they don't believe in the holocaust, a concentration camp disappears.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

1) I belive its correct to punish even grassroot members of such organisations.

What do you mean by 'punish', and why? If you're just punishing a person because they happened to be a Nazi Party member, you're simply punishing them for a political view. That way lies extreme danger.

Do you support 'punishing' every former member of the CPSU?

In any case, it would have been both unfeasible and idiotic to punish every single member of the Nazi party, which totalled millions. (And in any case, membership was compulsory for some people, IE, Civil Servants, so it's not even the case that you would be punishing die-hard Nazis in many instances.)

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

Well, it neither conveys that deserters were deserting an army which was supporting a totalitarian, genocidal dictatorship, or an army which had at some points participated in said genocide. Nor does it convey that these people were deserting from a war which their side had already lost. Nor does it do justice to the fact that these people hoped for a swifter resolution to the war, not the salughter of their own side, as it implies. It was the warmongers in Berlin who were slaughtering "battle comrades", as they had been since day one, not deserters.

Just because it's limited doesn't mean it's not true.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Why don't we kill ALL the bastards? Let's round them up, put them into camps and exterminate them in large numbers, then we'll have a nice clean, bastard free, society.

Sounds like a plan

[Marilyn Manson]

Well, I would probably reject that it is true on it's own terms. 'Assasin' implies a deliberate wish to kill. I have a hard time reconciling this with the act of desertion. In any case, it's so limited as to make it essentially nonsensical and worthless.

[djbass]

Originally Posted by Loz

I was expecting another thread about chavs - this guy said something a bit silly.

You know, I'm beginning to have doubts about this term 'chav'. Given Nusselt so readily compared my entire nation to one they can't be all that bad after all.

[Marilyn Manson]

Australians aren't chavs, they're thugs and criminals.

















O wai

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

What do you mean by 'punish', and why? If you're just punishing a person because they happened to be a Nazi Party member, you're simply punishing them for a political view. That way lies extreme danger.

Do you support 'punishing' every former member of the CPSU?

In any case, it would have been both unfeasible and idiotic to punish every single member of the Nazi party, which totalled millions. (And in any case, membership was compulsory for some people, IE, Civil Servants, so it's not even the case that you would be punishing die-hard Nazis in many instances.)

Punish? A year in jail, remove their "citizens rights" (like voting) for 10 years (this was done in some cases in norway) etc. As I have previously stated, I prefer to punish people who "do wrong" instead of letting em go. People who are not punished in any way will most likely continue with it.

CPSU? I didt a google search on CPSU and austria, and got up a trade union...
Or do you mean the "communist party of the sovietunion" ?

And what Snurx said.

[Phang]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Punish? A year in jail, remove their "citizens rights" (like voting) for 10 years (this was done in some cases in norway) etc. As I have previously stated, I prefer to punish people who "do wrong" instead of letting em go. People who are not punished in any way will most likely continue with it.

THIS MAN DOES NOT REPRESENT THE ENTIRE SPECTRUM OF LEFT-WING THOUGHT.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

As I have previously stated, I prefer to punish people who "do wrong" instead of letting em go.

Can you please tell me what they've done 'wrong' other than belong to a political party?

I imagine it was done in Norway because it could be done. The National Samling was such a small and irrelevant grouping they probably could have shot all the members and it wouldn't have registered as a blip.

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Or do you mean the "communist party of the sovietunion" ?

In the words of Roy Walker, RIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHHTTTT!

[Nantoz]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

Can you please tell me what they've done 'wrong' other than belong to a political party?

I imagine it was done in Norway because it could be done. The National Samling was such a small and irrelevant grouping they probably could have shot all the members and it wouldn't have registered as a blip.
[/b]

Actually the NS had about 45,000 members in 1945. (Quite a lot in little Norway)
Most of them were probably "good" people who just wanted it a bit better and easier from themselves, but some were undoubtedly opportunistics, facists pricks.

We only executed a very small number of central members.
Of the top of my head, I say 19 persons.
The rest got pretty lenient prison sentences.
I never heard of their voting privilegies being revoked.
Are you sure about that, Zhukov?

[Nantoz]

Originally Posted by Nantoz

Actually the NS had about 45,000 members in 1945. (Quite a lot in little Norway)
Most of them were probably "good" people who just wanted it a bit better and easier from themselves, but some were undoubtedly opportunistics, facists pricks.

We only executed a very small number of central members.
Of the top of my head, I say 19 persons.
The rest got pretty lenient prison sentences.
I never heard of their voting privilegies being revoked.
Are you sure about that, Zhukov?

Checked it up on Wikipedia.
73 355 persons were charged with War Crimes, Collaboration With The Enemy, etc.
Of these about 42 000 actually received punishment, for the most time short time prison sentences.
28 persons were executed.

In hindsight some charges were clearly wrong, e.g. some members of the Red Cross were charged with Collaboration.
And the laws that allowed for capital punishment were made ad hoc after the war.