Vision and Post|Mortum

[General1]

Although I'm not playing anymore, what happened?

[Little Timmy]

Oh erm gosh erm i just really dont know what could be happening.
Oh wow it must be something really serious.

[Kargool]

They are merging.

Kicked 31 members to merge.

[gzambo]

yeah but they can take those members back in after the merge

[furball]

Originally Posted by gzambo

yeah but they can take those members back in after the merge

But they won't have their score.

[gzambo]

Originally Posted by furball

But they won't have their score.

maybe not but they will have their fleets at their disposal plus any future score gains

[Cedlind]

Well, they can't take in all the members.
Unless I counted incorrectly, Vision and Post|Mortum is down a total of 46 members since saturday. With 60 members post-merge, they'd still have 26 out in the cold.

[Death666]

they will have their score...just nothing will be added if they have gained score outside of tag

[furball]

Originally Posted by Death666

they will have their score...just nothing will be added if they have gained score outside of tag

From what I gather, they'll get the score that those planets gained while being out of tag, but won't get back their original score (which averages at 900k score per kicked planet).

[wakey]

Originally Posted by furball

From what I gather, they'll get the score that those planets gained while being out of tag, but won't get back their original score (which averages at 900k score per kicked planet).

They would have kicked their lowest scoring memers, that means their top60 scorers when combined will count and the other 20 wouldnt count anyway so losing the previous score doesnt really matter.

Once again another clear abuse of the score system to gain rank by circumnavugating the score system. Its all just ridicolous and all alliance involved in such actions should be ashamed of themselves

[Remy]

It has happened

I agree with Wakey

/me goes drink

[Squidly]

Makes me wonder how well this was pulled off vision. I was sitting in your public channel last night in the wee hours, and noticed one of your guys come in wondering why he wasn't in-game and needed to talk to an HC {assumedly that was what the situation was given the information I had at the time.}

You did tell your members that something was happening right?

[rshih]

That's the cool thing to do.

What name will they using btw? As Vision and P|M are almost exactly equal in members atm so not one is dominant as in the SiN/TGV case.

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by rshih

That's the cool thing to do.

What name will they using btw? As Vision and P|M are almost exactly equal in members atm so not one is dominant as in the SiN/TGV case.

PostMortum of Vision?

[Mistwraith]

Originally Posted by Squidly

Makes me wonder how well this was pulled off vision. I was sitting in your public channel last night in the wee hours, and noticed one of your guys come in wondering why he wasn't in-game and needed to talk to an HC {assumedly that was what the situation was given the information I had at the time.}

You did tell your members that something was happening right?

from what i hear .. post mortem didnt tell ..

[Ultimate Newbie]

PostVision ?

Anyway, i dont really share wakey's views on this issue; if the merger results in a more powerful alliance that will be far better placed to challenge the top 3, then i think its great for the game. From what i understand, P|M is populated by the Subh officers/members who strongly opposed the fencesitting policy of the HC, and Vision has since R8 been actively challenging whomever is powerful (anyone remember VVOMM? ) - mind you, we'd eventually loose, but we typically prolonged the fighting.

So, together i think they'll be a pretty strong force who will be more or less ready to challenge the hegemony. What I think will be most interesting to know is whether this is a permerant merge and next round they start from the outset as a single identity.

Besides wakey, with 2 alliances becoming 1, doesnt that mean that F-Crew will rise by 1 rank?

[Ceadrath]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

PostVision ?

Anyway, i dont really share wakey's views on this issue; if the merger results in a more powerful alliance that will be far better placed to challenge the top 3, then i think its great for the game. From what i understand, P|M is populated by the Subh officers/members who strongly opposed the fencesitting policy of the HC, and Vision has since R8 been actively challenging whomever is powerful (anyone remember VVOMM? ) - mind you, we'd eventually loose, but we typically prolonged the fighting.

So, together i think they'll be a pretty strong force who will be more or less ready to challenge the hegemony. What I think will be most interesting to know is whether this is a permerant merge and next round they start from the outset as a single identity.

But what about the members that have been kicked and no longer have room to be added?

Theirs around 20 members that are now alliancless, and unless they were informed of the fact that they were going to be kicked later in the round then i doubt their too happy about it

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Besides wakey, with 2 alliances becoming 1, doesnt that mean that F-Crew will rise by 1 rank?

Not if only one of them was ahead of us

[Furious]

:/


F-crew is one of a few alliances left in the game that still plays to win fairly....with honour.

A victory is not such unless it is earnt.

What P|M and Vsn have done can be performed by a child with a calculator....they are just adding up the numbers. There is no skill involved, therefore why sould it be rewarded with a higher position?

[MotoX]

Originally Posted by Furious

:/


F-crew is one of a few alliances left in the game that still plays to win fairly....with honour.

A victory is not such unless it is earnt.

What P|M and Vsn have done can be performed by a child with a calculator....they are just adding up the numbers. There is no skill involved, therefore why sould it be rewarded with a higher position?

Al goes in war and love……sounds familiar?

And

That’s why you never gone win a round my dear, because PA is now days more of a political game then a war-game….as it should be I might add.

Adjust and adapt or you gone be a relic or just pathetic…..






Sorry but reality bites the weak!

[Furious]

Originally Posted by MotoX

That’s why you never gone win a round my dear, because PA is now days more of a political game then a war-game….as it should be I might add.

ffs should we get Mr Blair in training the noobs eh?

I, and im sure many other people signed up for a war game.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Furious

F-crew is one of a few alliances left in the game that still plays to win fairly....with honour.

Maybe its just me, but F-Crew members seem to whinge alot about being unfairly treated or whatever rather alot too.

What P|M and Vsn have done can be performed by a child with a calculator....they are just adding up the numbers. There is no skill involved, therefore why sould it be rewarded with a higher position?

In the real world, politics is a reality. Merging two similar alliances who share similar goals, who have similar fun loving players as members into a joint community should be respected as 1) their intrinsic right to do so, and 2) far more likely than not to benefit the game as a whole.

I reckon.

[Furious]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Maybe its just me, but F-Crew members seem to whinge alot about being unfairly treated or whatever rather alot too.

Its you.

We are simply proud to fight the good fight, as opposed to using such below the belt tactics.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

In the real world, politics is a reality.

Then why do we spend half our waking time playing a game to turn it into something we already have an abundance of?

[Ceadrath]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Maybe its just me, but F-Crew members seem to whinge alot about being unfairly treated or whatever rather alot too.

I'd have thought most players would have objections to their fellow pa players being unfairly treated and discarded like that.

Maybe we're just the ones that feel the need to point it out?

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Furious

:/


F-crew is one of a few alliances left in the game that still plays to win fairly....with honour.

A victory is not such unless it is earnt.

What P|M and Vsn have done can be performed by a child with a calculator....they are just adding up the numbers. There is no skill involved, therefore why sould it be rewarded with a higher position?

VsN/P|M deserve to merge their hardcore players who have been constantly let down by lame idlers who do not defend. with 60 good players they will earn a t5 rank if they are there at the end. Afterall, wouldn't the consensus be that Exi would overtake them by the end to claim t5 (by far)?

[Furious]

Originally Posted by GJN

Afterall, wouldn't the consensus be that Exi would overtake them by the end to claim t5 (by far)?

Wouldnt it be more satisfying to beat eXi down? Y'kno with ships and stuff...

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Ceadrath

But what about the members that have been kicked and no longer have room to be added?

Theirs around 20 members that are now alliancless, and unless they were informed of the fact that they were going to be kicked later in the round then i doubt their too happy about it

Yes and no. Alliances loose players all through the round due to personal or other reasons, or simply become inactive. Whilst i'm not saying that all of those 20 people are inactive blood sucking gits, what i am saying is that the merger has provided the opportunity for both alliances to clean house somewhat, even if it is at a score penalty, and the result is hopefully a more coherent and happy group of people who will fight on through the rest of the round. I dont really have any idea how much "dead weight" was being carried by either alliance. Having said all that, if some or any of those 20 players were actually active and then just dumped, yeah i dont imagine that they would be entirely amused. However, when they find new homes, perhaps they might contribute more there...

Not if only one of them was ahead of us

Unfortunate .

[Furious]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

I dont really have any idea how much "dead weight" was being carried by either alliance.

Would it be prudent to say that certain alliances create that "deadweight" through a lack of support for its lower ranked members?

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

even if it is at a score penalty, and the result is hopefully a more coherent and happy group of people who will fight on through the rest of the round.

There is NO score penalty and that largely where the problem lies. We have whats a largely a very restrictive score system this round which in itself is actually pretty good BUT when the merge system undermines the score system and anyone who uses it gains a significant advantage over those recruiting normally

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

PostVision ?

Anyway, i dont really share wakey's views on this issue; if the merger results in a more powerful alliance that will be far better placed to challenge the top 3, then i think its great for the game. From what i understand, P|M is populated by the Subh officers/members who strongly opposed the fencesitting policy of the HC, and Vision has since R8 been actively challenging whomever is powerful (anyone remember VVOMM? ) - mind you, we'd eventually loose, but we typically prolonged the fighting.

So, together i think they'll be a pretty strong force who will be more or less ready to challenge the hegemony. What I think will be most interesting to know is whether this is a permerant merge and next round they start from the outset as a single identity.

Besides wakey, with 2 alliances becoming 1, doesnt that mean that F-Crew will rise by 1 rank?

If they are merging with the long term goal of creating a stronger alliance then I don't have any problem. Its when the mergers are done for short term rank gains and with a clear intent to cheat the score system that I have a problem with. Its a kick in the teeth to every other alliance in PA that has earnt their ranking through hard work. The score system and alliance system are there for a reason and alliances up and down the rankings are simply taking the piss by abusing the merge system to get around these systems

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by wakey

If they are merging with the long term goal of creating a stronger alliance then I don't have any problem.

According to This Interview with Androx, Vision HC, it seems that the intention is that it is a permanent merge.

Further, he did imply that P|M was joining Vision and in future the name will be Vision.

Its when the mergers are done for short term rank gains and with a clear intent to cheat the score system that I have a problem with.

That's quite true, and in principle i agree with you. However generally such mergers would happen far later in the round, wouldnt they? I'm far too much of a novice to know exactly ofc, and i cant remember exactly the example with Reunion, however, wasnt that fairly late in the round (like 2/3?)

[Wandows]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

PostVision ?

Anyway, i dont really share wakey's views on this issue; if the merger results in a more powerful alliance that will be far better placed to challenge the top 3, then i think its great for the game. From what i understand, P|M is populated by the Subh officers/members who strongly opposed the fencesitting policy of the HC, and Vision has since R8 been actively challenging whomever is powerful (anyone remember VVOMM? ) - mind you, we'd eventually loose, but we typically prolonged the fighting.

So, together i think they'll be a pretty strong force who will be more or less ready to challenge the hegemony. What I think will be most interesting to know is whether this is a permerant merge and next round they start from the outset as a single identity.

Besides wakey, with 2 alliances becoming 1, doesnt that mean that F-Crew will rise by 1 rank?

Although i agree with some points of your post (concerning the increasing strength of VsN as a whole), as former HC and command member of the old VsN i have to say that i personally do not believe the action taken is an action that would have even been considered by the old (r13 and before) VsN. As much as we did fight when needed, we were a community alliance, a group of friends who stood by eachother no matter what. And although i don't know the exact details of the merge and the exact memberbase of the current Vision, i personally am ashamed that this VsN is using the old name combined with a action as this which (imo) is exactly the opposite of what VsN once stood for (i believe honour and team spirit had something to do with that aswell). In the old VsN strength was something we were working on to achieve, but not at the cost of our group.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Wandows

Although i agree with some points of your post (concerning the increasing strength of VsN as a whole), as former HC and command member of the old VsN i have to say that i personally do not believe the action taken is an action that would have even been considered by the old (r13 and before) VsN. As much as we did fight when needed, we were a community alliance, a group of friends who stood by eachother no matter what. And although i don't know the exact details of the merge and the exact memberbase of the current Vision, i personally am ashamed that this VsN is using the old name combined with a action as this which (imo) is exactly the opposite of what VsN once stood for (i believe honour and team spirit had something to do with that aswell). In the old VsN strength was something we were working on to achieve, but not at the cost of our group.

I hear what you are saying mate, but i know some people from both sides, so i think that, rather than this being a major increase in the little vision community that would result in damage, i think it might actually grow the community in a largely positive fashion; both groups are of really fun loving people and have wierd and strange habits/comments that i find really amusing and good fun. I think that there is a better chance of the (new?) vision doing well with the P|M crew rather than being worse off, though ofc this is only speculation on my behalf.

[Filth]

Originally Posted by Wandows

Although i agree with some points of your post (concerning the increasing strength of VsN as a whole), as former HC and command member of the old VsN i have to say that i personally do not believe the action taken is an action that would have even been considered by the old (r13 and before) VsN. As much as we did fight when needed, we were a community alliance, a group of friends who stood by eachother no matter what. And although i don't know the exact details of the merge and the exact memberbase of the current Vision, i personally am ashamed that this VsN is using the old name combined with a action as this which (imo) is exactly the opposite of what VsN once stood for (i believe honour and team spirit had something to do with that aswell). In the old VsN strength was something we were working on to achieve, but not at the cost of our group.

Wannie, are you saying you would not have considered something that would have been of benefit to VsN? Remeber drox was in that 'old VsN' command team as well. If the action taken is something which is going to strengthen both communities, not just at the present but also in the future I can't see a problem. New competition has not only been added to this round, but hopefully future rounds as well, which lets be honest, is what PA needs. If a few members are taking 16 hours+ to realise what has happened, well, it speaks for itself.

[Wandows]

Originally Posted by Filth

Wannie, are you saying you would not have considered something that would have been of benefit to VsN? Remeber drox was in that 'old VsN' command team as well. If the action taken is something which is going to strengthen both communities, not just at the present but also in the future I can't see a problem. New competition has not only been added to this round, but hopefully future rounds as well, which lets be honest, is what PA needs. If a few members are taking 16 hours+ to realise what has happened, well, it speaks for itself.

This is not what i meant. I would have (and did) considered every option that would allow VsN to strengthen itself, but there were limits to what i found acceptable considering the alliance history we had. The combined kicking of 46 ppl (effectively leaving 26 ppl allianceless, considering that at max 20 can rejoin the tag) would be something unacceptable to me, as to me that would chosing rank over the group/community. And i simply cannot believe all those kicked planets were useless scum that deserved the boot (after all they apparantly were good enough to have around up untill the merge presented itself). And i know that the current VsN isn't the same as the old (eventhough alot of the old members returned), but i personally would have expected better from a group associated with the old name.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Wandows

This is not what i meant. I would have (and did) considered every option that would allow VsN to strengthen itself, but there were limits to what i found acceptable considering the alliance history we had. The combined kicking of 46 ppl (effectively leaving 26 ppl allianceless, considering that at max 20 can rejoin the tag) would be something unacceptable to me, as to me that would chosing rank over the group/community. And i simply cannot believe all those kicked planets were useless scum that deserved the boot (after all they apparantly were good enough to have around up untill the merge presented itself). And i know that the current VsN isn't the same as the old (eventhough alot of the old members returned), but i personally would have expected better from a group associated with the old name.

There are some who have very bad scores that are still intag Wandows. So your suggestion that VsN have purged based on score is misguided. Perhaps you should pm AndroX?

[Filth]

Originally Posted by Wandows

This is not what i meant. I would have (and did) considered every option that would allow VsN to strengthen itself, but there were limits to what i found acceptable considering the alliance history we had. The combined kicking of 46 ppl (effectively leaving 26 ppl allianceless, considering that at max 20 can rejoin the tag) would be something unacceptable to me, as to me that would chosing rank over the group/community. And i simply cannot believe all those kicked planets were useless scum that deserved the boot (after all they apparantly were good enough to have around up untill the merge presented itself).

Well scum obviously isnt the word to be used...I was one of those removed I have had a crap round thus far, (though my poor performance will come as no surprise to some people ). However, even though my score is crap and fleet is quite poor I still have a place in VsN and will be re-added because of my commitment to VsN rather than just playing for myself, showing they regard the community as a higher priority than that of score. In my opinion there is no doubt something had to be done within the alliance. From what i saw targets were set and members were given a chance to improve. In the past, many alliances have cleared out their dead weight mid-round.

It has been stated already the aim of this merger has been done to benefit the community in the long term as well as allowing both alliances to compete in the current round, and by you saying this was done for rank/score would be an assumption it was done solely for this round alone, which would be wrong. Time will tell as to whether it succeeds and there is no doubt there is an element of risk involved.

Originally Posted by Wandows

And i know that the current VsN isn't the same as the old (eventhough alot of the old members returned), but i personally would have expected better from a group associated with the old name.

Obviously there are going to be differences from the old VsN but I am enjoying the round with a mixture of old faces and new, I can see progress towards a better community. Obviously there is the possibility it backfires and then you can say "i told you so".

(This all being my opinion as a peon responsible for no decisions etc)

[Legator]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

PostVision ?

Anyway, i dont really share wakey's views on this issue; if the merger results in a more powerful alliance that will be far better placed to challenge the top 3, then i think its great for the game. From what i understand, P|M is populated by the Subh officers/members who strongly opposed the fencesitting policy of the HC, and Vision has since R8 been actively challenging whomever is powerful (anyone remember VVOMM? ) - mind you, we'd eventually loose, but we typically prolonged the fighting.

I would add round 7 even if VisioN werent a full round alliance by that time but we were (our sistergalaxies) one of the last outposts in our block

[jerome]

there are no below the belt tactics in war, there are however those are idiots, and those who are not. and some such as jbg, who transcend that great dividing line.

[Furious]

Originally Posted by jerome

there are no below the belt tactics in war, there are however those are idiots, and those who are not. and some such as jbg, who transcend that great dividing line.

Might i remind you that there has been no war thus far? :/

[jerome]

Originally Posted by Furious

Might i remind you that there has been no war thus far? :/

you said you signed upto a war game, that would imply the whole situation is a war

[Kargool]

I have a small resentment to them kicking 31 (thats what i've counted) members in order to merge. But if they are going to let them in afterwards then I really dont see the point in having a 60 members limit.

But other than that, fun for both alliances I guess.

[gzambo]

well in fairness to f-crew 1 more merge and they are out of the top ten

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by gzambo

well in fairness to f-crew 1 more merge and they are out of the top ten

Wouldnt that be fun? Erm Erm, I mean sad! Sad I tell ya!

[Ceadrath]

Originally Posted by gzambo

well in fairness to f-crew 1 more merge and they are out of the top ten

I'm sure we could hang on in there!

[Furious]

If F-Crew are to war then it would be F-Crew.

Not F-Crew and every man and his dog, whilst crapping on any and all new players along the way.

By dumping the players in this way these two alliances are effectively saying "we dont want you in the game as you arent good enough for us"

That is my interpretation of the events, be it the right or wrong interpretation it communicates a very bad message.

[Tomkat]

Wait F-Crew take themselves seriously? I always thought they were one of those mess-around alliances that didn't take the game seriously at all.

Oh man.

That's....... interesting

[Ceadrath]

Originally Posted by Tomkat

Wait F-Crew take themselves seriously? I always thought they were one of those mess-around alliances that didn't take the game seriously at all.

Oh man.

That's....... interesting

I think we take the task of teaching new players very seriously, even if tradionally we havn't got involved in wars and such like, mainly for the reason that wars tend to have a very negative impact on new and inexperienced players.

This though does not mean that theirs not a core of experienced players who run the show, and put in the dedicaton and time required to teach the game to the less experienced, which can be very time intensive and frustrating at times. But their willing to do so, so that others can get the same enjoyment out of the game.

[Devlin]

Originally Posted by Tomkat

Wait F-Crew take themselves seriously? I always thought they were one of those mess-around alliances that didn't take the game seriously at all.

Oh man.

That's....... interesting

F-sCrew taking themselves seriously? I thought they just existed to donate salvage to those of us who do take the game seriously? Last round I had several planets intel checking as F-sCrew crashing whole fleets on me for no roidgain. One time I even had 14 prelaunched incs showing on a jgp before the first wave ever launched.

[Ceadrath]

Originally Posted by Devlin

F-sCrew taking themselves seriously? I thought they just existed to donate salvage to those of us who do take the game seriously? Last round I had several planets intel checking as F-sCrew crashing whole fleets on me for no roidgain. One time I even had 14 prelaunched incs showing on a jgp before the first wave ever launched.

But we need our sleep

[Shyne]

Good move by both alliances.

This will see increased competition for a top 5 spot.

Exilition is the only alliance clearly ahead, with Omen leading the pack of 5 or so near 1.5m avg score.