Planetarion Forums - Hmm , this screenshot thread has got me thinking

Kurashima · 25 Jan 2005, 20:25

"Is the Modern Gaming industry now so advanced that the guy developing software in his room has no chance of ever making it rich?"

The one thing that the screenshot thread has done for me is make me search for Emulators for old Spectrum/Commodore games on the web, and ive found hundreds of emus and tens of thousands of games. And it struck me that nowadays, with Gaming being so advanced, licensing to use certain hardwares so expensive, development of even small games being prohibitively high, is the gaming industry throttling itself? I mean, nowadays , there are less and less truly original games being developed, and those that are unique , or ground breaking, have little or no chance of succeeding without hundreds of thousands of pounds of marketing behind them. One of the thing i used to love about the Spectrum gaming scene was that i could buy a new Mastertronic or Firebird game for £1.99 because they churned out hundreds of those things a year and every so often, you found an absoloute gem, which maybe wasnt the most graphically pleasing, but had playability by the bucketload.

I remember when R-Type came out on the Spectrum, and broke the shoot em up mould, not by being unique in terms of gameplay (a sideways scrolling shooter , big wowee Gerry) , but by using multiple colours in a game without serious slowdown or crashing. By contrast , i remember Stock Car Championship, which had absoloutely no graphical skill whatsoever in its programming , but made up for it by having car AI that actually did what a real car would do (cut up a car and its driver would actually swerve, and holy shit was that unique). Even now that kind of realism is missing in games (anyone whos played Grand Theft Auto knows that regardless of what side of the road youre driving on, or what speed youre driving at , the car in front that can see you coming doesnt attempt to slow down or switch lanes until you go bumper to bumper with it).

My question to GD : Is Big Business in the Gaming industry throttling real innovation?

Super · 25 Jan 2005, 20:27

It's just turning into pop music and Hollywood films

Marilyn Manson · 25 Jan 2005, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurashima

"Is the Modern Gaming industry now so advanced that the guy developing software in his room has no chance of ever making it rich?"

Yes.

Structural Integrity · 25 Jan 2005, 20:53

I remember a thread about this on the gamedev forums. I don't really remember what the general consensus was but I do remember that a lot of people there didn't really care as it was their hobby, rather than their job.

As from a technical perspective, from the one side, yes, game development is becoming more complex as the technical demands of the users increases. Better graphics, more realistic physics. On the other hand, at this moment there is much more knowledge and tools available for the amateur developer than in the early days. For example complete open source game engines like Ogre. And file formats are much better documented nowadays. I saw people implementing file loaders and renderers for Doom3 files already.

As for making it rich... well... I don't know. I guess you need to make a really strong title in order to make it big time. Remember Black and White? it was the first title of that studio if I remember correctly, and that was a really good game that sold a lot of copies. I don't remember seeing a lot (any?) of adverts for that game either.
GTA was also a rather simple game (not also the first of RockStar?) but became popular because of it's theme. And did they advertise a lot?

The problem is that are few unexplored grounds when it comes to game genres. In the old days one could make a fortune with something as simple as Pong. Or the first strategy games.
At this moment you need a big name or lots of money in order to be able to sell your Doom 34 or Quake 112.
And I wouldn't blame the game industry for that, but rather the fact that there are very few unexplored areas left when it comes to gameplay.
So, I guess we'll be stuck with the current course of games. Every one competing with bigger and better graphics and physics, because there is little other to compete with.

Kurashima · 25 Jan 2005, 21:32

I mean , seriously , if you look at the top selling games of 2004 , how many of them were sequels?

Black and White sold solely on the name of Pete Molyneux
GTA sold solely on controversy.

Nowadays , a truly shit game can sell solely on its name without much effort. Half Life 2 could have been a clone of Pong 2 with Gordon Freemans head, and it would probably have sold 3 million copies.

(Note : Anyone wanting to develop a pong clone with Gordon Freemans head as the ball , i want royalties for being the first to suggest it).

LHC · 25 Jan 2005, 21:33

What about the guy that made Counterstrike? I believe he now has a job working for Valve or whatever. And I believe there was a commercial space combat sim within the past 2 years that was made by one man in his bedroom and sold reasonably well for a space game.

MrL_JaKiri · 25 Jan 2005, 21:37

Rockstar North (based in the UK) used to be known as DMA Design, and its under that name they made GTA. They didn't need any advertising, to be honest.

Black and White wasn't a great game, but made Lionhead a lot of money because of PM's constant hyping in interviews. It's not a cynical thing, he just doesn't know when to stop.

Small groups/individuals can still be successes (Uplink, for example, or their forthcoming game Darwinia), but it's generally a case of finding something that hasn't been done before.

The truly mass market game is going to be based around good graphics, because the market has increased beyond the traditional nerd area.

Oh, and it's not just the graphics that make things more difficult to code, ignoring the early adventures/rpgs, latter day games, by and large, no matter what they are, have much greater gameplay depth and complexity.

Nodrog · 25 Jan 2005, 21:49

"The guy making software in his room" can often end up working at a big company. As far as I know, a fair few game programmers started their career through their work in the mod scene (the original counterstrike team got hired by valve for example).

Anyway, since when did the bedroom programmer ever really get rich? Sure there were a few highprofile freelancers such as Jeff Minter who made a killing, but I doubt that 99% of them made significant amounts money, particularly those involved with the shareware scene. If anything, the web has increased the probability of a freelance game getting a large audience - look at the number of flash and java games that regularly get linked to on message boards. A lot of these are more complex than the 'commercial' games of years gone by, and get greater exposure due to the internet.

Obviously the average bedroom programmer isnt going to be writing a 3d adventure game on the scale of final fantasy, because the overheads involved in these projects are tremendous. But this isn't a result of 'big corporations' taking over the gaming industry - it's the inevitable result of hardware advances changing people's expectations of what a commercially successful game 'should' look like. If you're happy with 'old school' type games however, there are plenty available online. As an example, I'd recommend the Exile series, which is a fantastic collections of RPG games along the traditional lines.

Kurashima · 25 Jan 2005, 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodrog

"The guy making software in his room" can often end up working at a big company. As far as I know, a fair few game programmers started their career through their work in the mod scene (the original counterstrike team got hired by valve for example).

Also, since when did the bedroom programmer ever really get rich? Sure there were a few highprofile freelancers such as Jeff Minter who made a killing, but I doubt that 99% of them made significant amounts money, particularly those involved with the shareware scene. If anything, the web has increased the probability of a freelance game getting a large audience - look at the number of flash and java games that regularly get linked to on message boards. A lot of these are more complex than the 'commercial' games of years gone by, and get greater exposure due to the internet.

Talent does get recognised , but for an example of how the guy coding in his room gets rich , ill go for the Darling Brothers , founders of Codemasters, who wrote a few games featuring an annoying little egg , distributed themselves, and eventually ended up with a company thats worth absoloutely millions.

Most people who write mods end up working for the company that made the game their mods are based on. This isnt an example of something innovative and new being done, its just an example of talented people creating something and then being taken on by an employer for a slight increase in salary (i seriously doubt anyone who developed Counterstrike is now on 6 figures working for Valve). I know half the modders for Championship Manager are now working for SI Games, since its logical to take on people who know the code to update it. Thats not to say any of them are rich beyond their wildest dreams, since that just doesnt happen to programmers working for big companies unless theyre a part owner of the company.

Nodrog · 25 Jan 2005, 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurashima

I mean , seriously , if you look at the top selling games of 2004 , how many of them were sequels?

Black and White sold solely on the name of Pete Molyneux
GTA sold solely on controversy.

Nowadays , a truly shit game can sell solely on its name without much effort. Half Life 2 could have been a clone of Pong 2 with Gordon Freemans head, and it would probably have sold 3 million copies.

You make it sound like this is a new thing. The games that sold best back in the 'good old days' were the generic platform movie tie-ins (lol Ocean lol) and suchlike. Commercial success and innovation have never really went hand in hand.

Kurashima · 25 Jan 2005, 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodrog

You make it sound like this is a new thing. The games that sold best back in the 'good old days' were the generic platform movie tie-ins (lol Ocean lol) and suchlike. Commercial success and innovation have never really went hand in hand.

Sentinel
Starglider
Football Manager
Jet Set Willy

even Ocean had a cracking set of titles before the age of the movie tie in.

Head over Heels
Match Day

No developer at that time could ever survive solely on movie licensed games. It would have killed them.

Nodrog · 25 Jan 2005, 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurashima

Talent does get recognised , but for an example of how the guy coding in his room gets rich , ill go for the Darling Brothers , founders of Codemasters, who wrote a few games featuring an annoying little egg , distributed themselves, and eventually ended up with a company thats worth absoloutely millions.

As I said, there are isolated examples. The average bedroom programmer certainly did not become rich.

Quote:

Most people who write mods end up working for the company that made the game their mods are based on. This isnt an example of something innovative and new being done, its just an example of talented people creating something and then being taken on by an employer for a slight increase in salary (i seriously doubt anyone who developed Counterstrike is now on 6 figures working for Valve). I know half the modders for Championship Manager are now working for SI Games, since its logical to take on people who know the code to update it. Thats not to say any of them are rich beyond their wildest dreams, since that just doesnt happen to programmers working for big companies unless theyre a part owner of the company.

But the mods themselves are often incredibly original. How was Counterstrike less innovative as the games you fondly remember? Or Team Fortress? And everyone has to start somewhere - making a commercially viable game normally takes a very large budget, and it's unlikely that these are going to be handed out willy-nilly to unproven programmers. New companies are always being formed by experienced game designers who decide to branch out. Look at American Mcgee for a good example of this.

LHC · 25 Jan 2005, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurashima

Starglider
Football Manager
Jet Set Willy
.

All of which had cash-in sequels released.

Weeks · 25 Jan 2005, 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

Yes.

What about the guy who made rollarcoaster tycoon you cock jockey.

Nodrog · 25 Jan 2005, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurashima

Sentinel
Starglider
Football Manager
Jet Set Willy

Super Monkey Ball
Half Life
Everquest
Tomb Raider
Pokemon
Grand Theft Auto
Mario 64
Dance Dance Revolution
Animal Crossing
Sega Bass Fishing

All these games were equally as original and ground breaking as the ones you listed. Yes, most of them have been sequelled, but that's the way things have always went - the groundbreakers of today become the sequels of tomorrow. The same often occurs in the movie industry as well.

What's wrong with sequels anyway, as long as they significantly improve on the original? Some of the best games of all time have been sequels - Populous 2, Speedball 2, Final Fantasy 7, and so on. Obviously you get some dross such as the FIFA series, but then you also get sequels along the lines of Half Life 2 and Baldur's Gate 2.

MrL_JaKiri · 25 Jan 2005, 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weeks

What about the guy who made rollarcoaster tycoon you cock jockey.

Chris Sawyer made RC1, held back RC2 and has nothing to do with RC3. Oh, the success.

[edit]

And nodrog is right; the modding scene is where people get picked up now. Admittedly not very many of the modders get employed by the companies, but then most mods are crap. Just like most bedroom coders didn't make any money, and most of their games are crap.

No matter how good you remember a gaming era to be, you're always forgetting the 10:1 ratio of utter tripe to actually good games, at least.

SilverSmoke · 26 Jan 2005, 01:28

I've lost the hardcore interest in games since the 3D graphics explosion, actually since the last 3 years I've lost as good as all interest in it.

Or maybe I am just maturing.

djbass · 26 Jan 2005, 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurashima

(Note : Anyone wanting to develop a pong clone with Gordon Freemans head as the ball , i want royalties for being the first to suggest it).

And I want a cut of your royalties for being based on a mod I already made for Structural Integrity's 3D pong featuring my head

I think it's still possible as long as your game is innovative or features solid gameplay.

Knight Theamion · 26 Jan 2005, 02:46

only games that are homemade and popular atm are the flashgames... but they are getting profesionalized faster and faster :S

roadrunner_0 · 26 Jan 2005, 12:37

what was the sequel to jet set willy?

(and don't just say jet set willy 2 or its --rep for you)

as i genuinly didn't know that there was a sequel

SilverSmoke · 26 Jan 2005, 12:43

Jetset Willy 2 - The final frontier.

Actually only Manic Miner and it's sequel Jetset Willy where written by Matthew Smith. Jetset 2 , 3 etc aren't.

roadrunner_0 · 26 Jan 2005, 13:04

i would say that sony are quite for innovation, the net yaroze was a good invention, shame it didn't actaully do very well really

Structural Integrity · 26 Jan 2005, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbass

And I want a cut of your royalties for being based on a mod I already made for Structural Integrity's 3D pong featuring my head

I think it's still possible as long as your game is innovative or features solid gameplay.

Put on a Gordon Freeman head and make Kura a happy man.

SbOlly · 26 Jan 2005, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Structural Integrity

Put on a Gordon Freeman head and make Kura a happy man.

I tried your 3d pong game and it didn't work. Fix please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

"If you consider the ever increasing range of formats as well expecially with the recent release of the DS and PSP surely there is room for everyone who has somethign to offer, although perhaps less chance of making 10 million quid from 2 months work."

The problem is that the PSP isn't an open platform for bedroom developers to develop on. I assume it is the same case for the DS. In the past people have managed to get their own code to run on previous consoles (PS1/PS2/Dreamcast/GB/GBA etc) which has allowed for small time development. With each new generation of hardware it becomes harder and harder to do this, until it will become unfeasable.

SbOlly · 26 Jan 2005, 17:44

They wouldn't be able to develop it in the first place, as they wouldn't have access to the tools/libraries/specs.

And to get hold of them, they would have to have already signed up for a game etc.

Its catch 22 for anyone who isn't already a games developer.

SbOlly · 26 Jan 2005, 17:53

It would be impossible to get hold of a devkit. Or access to any of the libraries.

If you knew what you were doing, you could do a proof of concept on PC, take that to a developer/publisher with access and try and persaude them to take you on.

I very much doubt it would even happen though. Which is sad in its own special way.

MrL_JaKiri · 26 Jan 2005, 19:08

Go to Nintendo with it. Mario Pinball was knocked up by a few guys in their spare time who submitted it to the company.

LHC · 26 Jan 2005, 21:36

The GBA didn't have a freely available devkit automatically; what makes you so sure there won't be a homebrew scene for PSP and DS at some stage? The PSP even has a memory stick slot, which many amateur developers hope means there will be a scene for emulation and homebrew games.

Or what about third party hardware, such as the GP32 or Zodiac? They are getting old now, but more will be released. The only one that explicitly says it won't release development tools is the Gizmondo.

SbOlly · 26 Jan 2005, 23:36

The PSP does have a memory stick slot, but I can promise you there will be no full homebrew scene for it. You'll just have to trust me.

The DS might. The point being, at each iteration of hardware, the security, complexity and general useability of homebrew development gets more and more difficult.

djbass · 27 Jan 2005, 10:20

I don't see why homebrew development would be any more viable on the DS & PSP than any of the other consoles out there. None of these are open-platform, you will not be able to legally develop for it without signing some sort of license agreement and you can bet they wont be handing them out will-nilly. Even if a homebrew scene develops it'll just be a hobby based community thing, you can never expect to make a living from it.

I say, keep it simple, stick to the PC platform, even if you did still want to develop for consoles you stand a much better chance if you have some acknowledged work behind you to build a portfolio with.

True genious comes from innovation, instead of trying to copy the many of millions of games already out there try something a bit different. The more important thing is that you develop something that you would want to play and the chances are at least someone else out there will like it as well. You probably wont be cranking out an overnight hit on your first go either, it may take a few tries before you get it right.

I know personally I've been trying to develop an innovative game for the last 17 years and I still haven't given up trying

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Jan 2005, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbass

I don't see why homebrew development would be any more viable on the DS & PSP than any of the other consoles out there. None of these are open-platform, you will not be able to legally develop for it without signing some sort of license agreement and you can bet they wont be handing them out will-nilly. Even if a homebrew scene develops it'll just be a hobby based community thing, you can never expect to make a living from it.

You appear to have not read the start of this little interlude. The making money off the game was predicated upon a dev picking it up.

Dante Hicks · 27 Jan 2005, 10:27

I don't see why "making money" is the only criteria for being a success. Yeah if you made some flash game that made you a million dollars that'd be nice, but wouldn't it be nice to think that you've brought joy to many people, had your e-penis increased enormously and generally had the love and respect of your fellow man?

Or is that me being a communist faggot again?

If you're making a game or similar endeavour with the sole aim of making money I kind of hope you fail anyway.

djbass · 27 Jan 2005, 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

You appear to have not read the start of this little interlude. The making money off the game was predicated upon a dev picking it up.

It was meant to imply that I did not see this happening.

djbass · 27 Jan 2005, 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

I don't see why "making money" is the only criteria for being a success. Yeah if you made some flash game that made you a million dollars that'd be nice, but wouldn't it be nice to think that you've brought joy to many people, had your e-penis increased enormously and generally had the love and respect of your fellow man?

Or is that me being a communist faggot again?

If you're making a game or similar endeavour with the sole aim of making money I kind of hope you fail anyway.

I'm in line to agree, the persuit for fortune stiffles innovation I feel. I would like to see more doing it because it's fun and others find it fun.