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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 08:40   #1
Kargool
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Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Seeing as I was the one who suggested this (atleast one of the times) I dont recall asking for galmates to be able to scan me. Seing as alot of galmates are not your mates at all, they betray, get you farmed, dont report your incs etc I dont think it should be possible for galmates to scan you.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 08:51   #2
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

I agree. While we can't rely on it though, with any luck the new galaxy setup will reduce the use of it for "naughty" things.

But if possible, take it out.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 10:32   #3
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

But the thing is, in R15 if you fill up your pack of 5 people you'll only have randoms on top of that. Also, the cost of self exile has changed and quickly increases as you do more, so having spies jump from gal to gal is less likely. Also, spies will just as easily infiltrate an alliance as they will a particular galaxy. Also you're not able to JGP yourself this round so having gal mates able to do this for you and get past your distorters helps.

I think there are probably other arguments for this, but I'm at work so can't spend too much time on the forums! ;-)
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 13:24   #4
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

I actually think its a good thing Kargool. Yes spies could use it but its also pushing galaxies towards working together more which is always a good thing.

Also lets be honest, gal mates have enough access to screw you over if they want so this isnt really helping them that much
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 13:25   #5
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloopy
But the thing is, in R15 if you fill up your pack of 5 people you'll only have randoms on top of that. Also, the cost of self exile has changed and quickly increases as you do more, so having spies jump from gal to gal is less likely. Also, spies will just as easily infiltrate an alliance as they will a particular galaxy. Also you're not able to JGP yourself this round so having gal mates able to do this for you and get past your distorters helps.

I think there are probably other arguments for this, but I'm at work so can't spend too much time on the forums! ;-)
Can we get a clarification on the "Cant JPG self" issue.

There seems to be confusion, is it you cant JPG yourself at all or just that you cant without a returning fleet?
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 13:40   #6
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I actually think its a good thing Kargool. Yes spies could use it but its also pushing galaxies towards working together more which is always a good thing.

Also lets be honest, gal mates have enough access to screw you over if they want so this isnt really helping them that much
Pushing galaxies towards working together more?? I think that the award of free credits should be enough. I still think that this option is very unfortunate. Its naive to think that some players wont go random, and its naive to think that noone of them would be able to scan you.

When it comes to alliances security as to whom is able to join it must be up to that alliance itself to actually be able to do so.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 14:38   #7
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Can we get a clarification on the "Cant JPG self" issue.

There seems to be confusion, is it you cant JPG yourself at all or just that you cant without a returning fleet?
You need a returning fleet. It's simply a fix that stops a small number of planets being able to JGP themselves even if they don't have a returning fleet.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 14:47   #8
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Yes galaxy mates scanning you is stupid, for one if you spend your round goin distorters so that noone can scan you, the alliance can simply ask its member in ur gal, and all that work and effort is just wasted.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 14:54   #9
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
Yes galaxy mates scanning you is stupid, for one if you spend your round goin distorters so that noone can scan you, the alliance can simply ask its member in ur gal, and all that work and effort is just wasted.
idd if u go all distorters (xcept the other needed stuff), and u loose 0 structures all round etc you loose your advantage tehre by this in-gal scanning.

But face it, last round there were only some targets that couldn't get scanned, so the change ain't all that big.

And i think Kloopy is right, there'll be way less # of alliance in galaxies anyways, due to bigger buddypacks.


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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 14:58   #10
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

I think this is a good thing.

There are lots of other ways that a spy in a galaxy could hurt the galaxy and this feature will aid galaxies that want to work together.

Spying and prevention of it is not something PA should be trying to code for/against.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 16:05   #11
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

This will certainly encourage more random planets, and discourage me from building any amps or distorters. (Well, perhaps just the one...)
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 16:13   #12
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

I find it quite disturbing that anyone with less amps than your dis could scan you, even an alliance mate. In R13 i dis whored, and while it was annoying that noone in my alliance could scan me, it saved me a lot of inc, a sacrifice that I found paid off.
But for gal mates to be able to scan you no matter what... The thought scares me, I envision more paid randoms this round than would otherwise have been, more hostile players with scan capabilities, maybe even 1 in every galaxy. Can't scan that evil 1upper, I have a friend in his gal that can do it for you, a bi bad Exil player coming at you with lots of dis, i know someone in his gal i can get a unit from.
But maybe this is just me jealous of losing my prestige as a scanner.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 16:36   #13
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

I think a certain compromise should be reached.

gal mates can not scan you, without you giving your permission on the preferances screen.

Alliance mates can only scan you if their in game status is set to anything above member.

Should cut down on the spies, but gives the bonuses that it was intended to.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 16:45   #14
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

I think The_Fish made a good suggestion.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 16:47   #15
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

I think that's probably about right.

It actually makes me feel less inclined to touch Terran or Zikonian, and that's not something I want to be considering when a game change is made. The current advantages / disadvantages of going for distorters all the way seem balanced to me.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 18:13   #16
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

this really ruins distorting which imo was already fine. Galaxy mates should not be able to scan you freely.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 19:23   #17
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

I agree with the majority of people here. Alliance mates is fine, galaxy is not. Though I do think it should remain possible, via someething like The_Fish suggested.

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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 22:54   #18
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
I think a certain compromise should be reached.

gal mates can not scan you, without you giving your permission on the preferances screen.

Alliance mates can only scan you if their in game status is set to anything above member.

Should cut down on the spies, but gives the bonuses that it was intended to.

I would prefer only alliance mates can scan you

but yes, this is a good compromise that gal mates can only scan you if you mark something to enable it.

Although last round, I know of at least 2 scanners who could scan everyone (/me waves at Mitre and KillGhost ), they could not be on 24/7 so there were some times they were unscannable.
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 00:08   #19
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

I think Mitre actually failed on Gladiator, Steven or someone once. I could be wrong
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 09:00   #20
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

In my opinion being able to scan galmates is only sane. This gives an advantage back to the more active players in the less organized galaxies, which is a good thing.
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 10:42   #21
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
I think a certain compromise should be reached.

gal mates can not scan you, without you giving your permission on the preferances screen.

Alliance mates can only scan you if their in game status is set to anything above member.

Should cut down on the spies, but gives the bonuses that it was intended to.
I'm really not keen on the idea of free scans in-galaxy (which is essentially what they are). For the last two rounds in a row, I've had galmates in hostile alliances who were distorter whores. R13 was Gerbie, who had 135 distorters, R14 was Wishmaster, approaching 100 distorters. They were both hostile to me in various ways - it would have given me too much power to give out free scans on top 100 planets (which they both were). I think you would also get certain people exiling through galaxies to scan the distorter whores, like allegedly happened in the speed round.

I totally agree with Fish's compromise. Make the option preset to allowing your galmates to scan you, forcing people to manually choose not to be scanned.


I really think this should be changed before the round start, there was never any consultation on this issue.
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 12:15   #22
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

There you have it PATeam, listen to the people
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:46   #23
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Anything more on this? Kloopy, Kal, Appocomaster?
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 09:58   #24
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
In my opinion being able to scan galmates is only sane. This gives an advantage back to the more active players in the less organized galaxies, which is a good thing.
That's certainly a nice way of looking at it but I really don't think it justifies rendering a legitimate playing style ineffective.

It's not even that it won't be viable any more, more so that any very competent player will likely recognise it as a poor use of their time. Personally, I don't really believe in compromising, especially pre-round start and i'd genuinely consider that I might not want to choose either race, Terran or Zikonian as their effectiveness tends to be somewhat dependant on distorters.

It could be said, this has no effect on Fleet Scans, the most important thing. But when you invest in distorters you expect to reap the other benefits associated with them, and with this change those benefits are put into question.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 11:27   #25
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

For the average Distorter mad player, the change moves the number of Scanning threatening to them from something like five to a hundred or so. One can probably justify the alliance or the galaxy alone, being able to scan, but not both.

It encourages betrayal, and players to seek ways in which to get scans "immorally" when they're landing in the morning. That's in part what my dislike for it comes down to.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 12:44   #26
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

SORT IT OUT PA TEAM. please :/
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 18:35   #27
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
For the average Distorter mad player, the change moves the number of Scanning threatening to them from something like five to a hundred or so. One can probably justify the alliance or the galaxy alone, being able to scan, but not both.

It encourages betrayal, and players to seek ways in which to get scans "immorally" when they're landing in the morning. That's in part what my dislike for it comes down to.
surely it discourages betrayal as if you betray someone and they find it you can easily be scanned yourself
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 21:17   #28
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

They will never find it. And your round could be ruined because of your gal mates betrayal. You are asking for trouble.
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Unread 14 Oct 2005, 01:28   #29
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

In a given galaxy you rarely get more than a couple of players who employ Distorters as their game-plan and the average player has less than ten distorters, and more than ten amps. And so no, I doubt that'd mean anything in a practice.

The whole issue only really has effect on players who want to be very difficult to scan, or for people that like diversity in attacking options, tactical game-play. For the average player I doubt it'd matter much.
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Unread 14 Oct 2005, 11:32   #30
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Well, it is a wargame. During a war there are a lot of nasty things committed, adapt yourself to that situation.

Being PSTUNJ-scanable is not a bad thing. They cannot FA scan you, and that is what counts for riding successfull attacks.

If you dislike this reality I recommend extended sessions of "Barby's Supermarket Adventures".

However, if there should be a change, then make this ingal scans being available to granted people only.
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Unread 15 Oct 2005, 11:02   #31
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

I think its great!!

It makes it alot easier to help new players and galmates alike..
Since we usually have like... 1 amp..
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Unread 15 Oct 2005, 12:19   #32
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Only people I feel should be able to ignore distorters are the DC:s of each players alliance, for defence sorting purposes.
So my suggestion would be to limit the "ability" to people marked as officers on the in game alliance.
For galaxy, it should be a matter of choice, in my opinion.
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Unread 25 Oct 2005, 19:23   #33
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

So is this staying the same?
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Unread 26 Oct 2005, 05:00   #34
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Yea in my last gal I had members from two different allainces giving out my galstatus, when their scanners could not get a scan on me. Having distorters in a small or weak alliance sometimes is your only defense. Now if that is your strategy you are completely defensless.


Now their only use is to block FA. which isn't so great anyway.
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Unread 26 Oct 2005, 06:58   #35
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

I think the best solution is that your galmates can scan you if they have the proper number of amps to get through.

Free passes for alliance scanning is a good idea. Maybe make it an option in preferences which was mentioned earlier. If the option is turned off then only people with enough amps can scan them.
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Unread 26 Oct 2005, 14:05   #36
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

How about scans from Gal Mates always suceed but always get put into News (like they sometimes did way back when). Therefore if you know someone is hostile, at least you and the other gal mates can take action on them (exile, no defence etc), if you notice them scanning you a lot.

Or maybe limit gal mates to being only those in your BP in your galaxy - surely you trust them?
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Unread 26 Oct 2005, 23:23   #37
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

That sounds fair. But I don't really understand what was the motivation for allowing Galmates to scan you anyway??? Alliance scanning would have been enough. It just seems random and pointless...It adds nothing, yet takes away a viable strategy. Investing resources in different ways is what makes the game strategy diverse. Now there are less options.
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 02:04   #38
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thex
How about scans from Gal Mates always suceed but always get put into News (like they sometimes did way back when). Therefore if you know someone is hostile, at least you and the other gal mates can take action on them (exile, no defence etc), if you notice them scanning you a lot.
That is actually a very clever idea. It permits players to determine whether a member of their galaxy is displaying a certain behaviour trait that is undesireable, and can then take action should they choose to do so. It means that galaxymates cant scan without raising some suspision about their actions, which means the instances of information being leaked is probably going to be less frequent (which is probably a good thing). I dont think players would be exiled from their galaxy from doing the one scan, or for doing JGP's and whatnot (to see prelaunched incoming) as they have access to galaxy status anyway.

Its very clever, i think, and a good position to consider...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkerton
It adds nothing, yet takes away a viable strategy. Investing resources in different ways is what makes the game strategy diverse. Now there are less options.
As i mentioned in This Post of This Thread, allowing galaxymates to scan you through a Jammer screen doesnt really change anything - alliance scanners can do it anyway, and it doesnt change the major purpose of having alot of Jammers; which is to prevent your targets from Fleet scanning you.

Jammers assist offensive strategy. Any defensive benefits you receive from them should be considered as pureply a bonus.
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 03:01   #39
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
As i mentioned in This Post of This Thread, allowing galaxymates to scan you through a Jammer screen doesnt really change anything - alliance scanners can do it anyway, and it doesnt change the major purpose of having alot of Jammers; which is to prevent your targets from Fleet scanning you.

Jammers assist offensive strategy. Any defensive benefits you receive from them should be considered as pureply a bonus.
No I used them mainly for def in rnd 13 and spent 3/4 of the game in the top 10 until i left for vacation for 10days but still finished top 40. That was with a pretty weak aliiance compared to the top 5 alliances. I had more distorters than all aliance scanners 110+ for a good portion of the game.
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 17:41   #40
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Re: Scans now ALWAYS get through to your gal mates and alliance mates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
That is actually a very clever idea.
I was drinking a lot of coffee that day - I should try it again
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