Round 34 Stats

[Tronick]

Originally Posted by Patrikc

beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=at4g1e1ocza9t68

How exactly? And that's even assuming Xans will build as much Shadows as Ghost/Spirit, which they won't. And you can defend Ter Fr fairly easily with other Fr/De. Drake just has really good eff's.

I'll agree on the Xan/Cat Co teamups being a threat to Ter Fr, but you'll have to bring such big amounts that it will only happen in wartimes. During normal galraids Ter won't be picked much at first, and later on almost not at all.



The problem is that their t2's are t1's on other ships.

I think you're right about the terran issue patrikc... if you get a good start with terran, you wont have to worry about someone soloing you, and prolly not get double booked and 8 waves on a galraid on your galaxy. However, if you look at terrans roiding capabilities i think that more than makes up for their defensive capabilities. you really only have cath to roid, and occasionally zik.

The way i hope its going to be in the round is the ratio between incs and roiding capabilities should be about the same for all races ie. if you get alot of incs you should be able to roid fast, and the other way around... i generelly think the stats are build that way, but i do agree in order to make up for the incs cath get, they are gonna need alot more effectivity so they can take the roids back. And zik needs more effectivity to bring their amount of incs down.

[Tronick]

Originally Posted by Patrikc

beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=at4g1e1ocza9t68

How exactly? And that's even assuming Xans will build as much Shadows as Ghost/Spirit, which they won't. And you can defend Ter Fr fairly easily with other Fr/De. Drake just has really good eff's.

I'll agree on the Xan/Cat Co teamups being a threat to Ter Fr, but you'll have to bring such big amounts that it will only happen in wartimes. During normal galraids Ter won't be picked much at first, and later on almost not at all.



The problem is that their t2's are t1's on other ships.

How is that unfair patrikc? you have an even sized xan vs ter. When has xan ever been able to roid terran 1on1 value? they have the init advantage, hence they shouldnt have the ac/dc advantage... but 1 teammate for the xan and the ter has to run

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by Tronick

How is that unfair patrikc? you have an even sized xan vs ter. When has xan ever been able to roid terran 1on1 value? they have the init advantage, hence they shouldnt have the ac/dc advantage... but 1 teammate for the xan and the ter has to run

You said that Xan Fr could roid Ter Fr. If you're going by the logic "he can bring a teammate and the Ter will run" then we can name everything, as everything will run as long as you bring enough.

My point is that forcing teamups on you is very very good. Why would you use 2 people on a Ter when you can solo a Zik for equal roids? (just an example)

Sure Ter won't roid others easily, but that's where 'noobbashing' comes into play. Keeping roids is the bigger issue.

Originally Posted by Dauntless

Change the Pred to be CO, and their anti fico problem is fixed.
Then, going ETD BS is actually viable. Their DE fleet will be next to useless, but who cares..

Etd isn't THAT weak to fi/co, not so much that they need an EMP fi/co. Going pure De is indeed rather silly though, especially Broker. Both Vindicator and Tycoon beat it hands down. And let's not mention the Predator.

[Tiamat101]

Cath need a boost to either the Widow or Tarantula. Ter BS and etd Bs will just walk right over them.

As For ter fr fortresses. Xan fi/co can roid them just fine with the Rev and banshee, they will do enough damage to make the ter run.

[Appocomaster]

-general cath efficency improvements (more guns)
-swapping gnat + locust targetting + changing inits
-slight downgrade of some pods
-vindcator + avenger improvement
-upgrade of some zik ships
-slight readjustment of revenant
-slight fiddling with xan fi (illusion now more expensive + changed to reflect this)

[Dauntless]

You really think Widows are bad vs Etd and Ter BS, Tiamat?
calc id=cmkqrlxjtbs10bl
calc id=douo6fd8jbahxlh

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by Dauntless

You really think Widows are bad vs Etd and Ter BS, Tiamat?
calc id=cmkqrlxjtbs10bl
calc id=douo6fd8jbahxlh

Keep in mind that Apocco gave the Widow another gun in between Tiamat and your post, bumping it from 5 to 6.

[Tiamat101]

This was before Appoco Changed them. Now they are at a level that makes cat playable. However i think you should switch the T1 and T3 on the Mantis. Being able to target both Fr and De at full strength is a bit too much the Roach already will do a good job.

[Greendog]

Originally Posted by bobthe

Personally I liked the ZIK BS I saw earlier in the stats that targeted FI/CO.

I would like a return of the Rogue BS which stole FI

[Nightwolf]

A Cath kill ship with an init of 4? So now Cath also kills before any other race.
Awesome.

[neroon]

yeah its pretty awesome imo

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Nightwolf

A Cath kill ship with an init of 4? So now Cath also kills before any other race.
Awesome.

This is truly the end of all things. As such I would like to offer a quote from the book of revelations on this occasion

I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I think we can all appreciate the truth in this right now.

[isildurx]

Not really appreciating it :\

[Tiamat101]

I dont think the Locust being init 4 is nessicary given they already have emp ships to back them up. Having that with the Mantis means that cat are immune to fi/co once they get cr/bs. I think putting it to init 6 or 7 and dropping its armor/damage. Then you will have a good cat kill ship instead of a Amazing kill ship backed with untouchable emp.

[Gerbie2]

I generally don't like new sets of stats, because in general they are not balanced. This set is no exception.
I don't like Ter the way it is now. The fortress is the obvious way to go.
Cathaar are too weak. They can roid alright, though landing may be hard. Emping Co is nearly impossible, making it easy to defend the Co fleet with Thiefs and Pillagers. There is no ship that emps Co at T1.
The main problem is that other races will find it nearly impossible to land for cheap roids – except when they hit Cathaar. Cathaar will be popular targets.
The Scorpion lacks the power to make a difference.
Xan appear to have a lot more firepower than in previous rounds. Their initiative is not as superiour as before.
Ziks lack ships with the initiative to attack.
Etd is generally weak. The De need a boost and the Guardian is much too weak.

There are too many potential Fr/De fortresses. This is not Sim planet. Those fleets need some real weaknesses to make attacking viable. Also we can use more different initiatives that allow people to attack each other, rather than all these ships firing at the same initiative.
I could suggest major chances (initiative, targeting), but that probably wouldn't be accepted, so I'll just make some small change suggestions:
Downgrade Corvette Emp Resistance: Beetle 55-> 44, Viper 62-> 45, Mosquito 62-> 46, Revenant 27-> 1, Thief 44-> 20, Smuggler 50-> 21, Pillager 58-> 50
Add 1 gun to the Scorpion
Upgrade Zik Emp resistance, so they can better attack Cat+Etd:
Marauder 85->86, Pirate 86-> 87, Privateer 83-> 85, Ironclad 85-> 87 (also because I want to upgrade the Guardian)
Upgrade Etd De: Broker Armor/Damage/Eres to 29/27/86, Fireblade Damage to 40, Predator C cost to 305.
Add 6(!) guns to the Guardian (still less efficient than the Tarantula).
Edit: to fix Terran, reduce Fr Armor, raise Bs Armor.

[CBA]

Originally Posted by gerbie2

cathaar will be popular targets.

orly?

[Tiamat101]

Xan currently dont have the firepower to stand up to anything really, the D/C on there ships doesnt make up for the init they have. There fr's are bit too weak. I have tested xan fr's and they are not really that good, ter zik and etd have better fr/de fleets than xan. And Xan fi/co isnt that good either, the Damage that the rev does isnt enough to make ter's run and zik's will just have too many ships for them to not matter. And vs the Locust, the Rev will still lose and the xan even defending will lose more than the cat.

So xan needs some kind of fix.

I dont think PA needs a round of Fortress Gals but i dont think that abandoning Fr/de's is a good thing just make some classes that are good vs them. Instead of making ALL the anti fi/co init 5 from fr/de classes then Make them weak to cr/bs. Really weak to Cr/bs.

[JDD]

Are the stats gonna be set to final anytime soon?

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by JDD

Are the stats gonna be set to final anytime soon?

What? We still have, like, 5 days!

[isildurx]

We sure do. I expect them to be done sometime on Wednesday.

Race distribution looks fairly even currently ingame, i fear we will see more xans than we have at present though.

[Appocomaster]

I've updated stats ... changes to follow. Xan have been weakened, cathaar strengthened, etd strengthened, zik tweaked up a bit


I think the changes are all contained as follows:

Terran
Harpy Damage 7->8
Centaur/Drake/Chimera minor EMP resistance decrease
Syren Damage 50->53
Syren Armour 90->93
Dragon Damage 77->78
Dragon Armour 121->128

Cathaar
Gnat EMP Resistance 27 -> 32
Beetle Cost 85/100/85 -> 80/95/80
Locust Init 4->8
Locust Armour 45->47
Locust Damage 32->36

Xan
Shadow Damage 16-> 15
Ghost Cost 130/130/130 => 135/135/135
Ghost Armour 12->13
Ghost Damage 18->17
Spirit T3 Destroyer -> none
Spirit EMP resistance: 72-> 70

Zik:
Smuggler EMP Resistance 50 -> 55
Smuggler Damage 10 -> 11
Smuggler Cost 66/66/88 -> 65/65/85
Brigand Damage 32 -> 34
Brigand Armour 31 -> 32
Brigand EMP Resistance 87 -> 85
Rogue Damage 22 -> 24
Marauder Cost 270/270/310 -> 260/260/310
Marauder EMP Resistance 85->88
Pirate EMP Resistance 86 -> 89
Pirate Cost 280/280/340 -> 270/270/335
Ironclad EMP Resistance 85->89


Etd:
Vindicator Cost 52/42/42 -> 50/40/40
Broker Damage 26 -> 28
Predator Guns 9->10
Predator Cost 270/310/270 -> 270/300/270
Guardian Guns 16 -> 21
Tycoon Damage 67 -> 69

[isildurx]

Sounds good!

[Judge]

cutter pointless as the thief does the same job better

also it stands out as the only Fi Class

[Paisley]

the changes should be interesting

[Remy]

imho cath locust should indeed not be init 4, but making it 8 is somewhat too much. I'd say init 6 is much better

[Doffeh]

I wasn't sure if I wanted to contribute to this discussion with zero previous contributions to this forum, but.. Here goes..

So Zik is a little bit of a hardmode, - some people like the idea of zik BS/CR hitting down to FI, and possibly stealing. I personally find this a bit useless, as it is from the get-go hard to balance and it will be difficult to fleetcatch a FI/CO fleet with a BS/CR fleet. And with the run 'n hide option, I can't see much future besides fleet catching.

This is more directed at the whole run and hide thing than actual ship stats, but as an example; Last round I played as Xan (sigh) and I never lost one single ship in the FI/CO class, which was the class I built the most of. People value ships more than roids it seems, and will run if the odds are against them. So in the context of Zik, I suggest avoiding some odd-boat that shoots from CR/BS size down to FI/CO.

Zik however, still seems a bit like a hardmode to me. Efficiencies are up and helped, but as someone previously posted, Zik stats shouldn't be built on the idea of that steals will always happen, or always happen with flawless losses. You can only expect to steal a lot, or sometimes steal at all, if you fleetcatch, which is difficult enough, even with a lot of friends a significant alliance.

So when everything is said and done, if a Zik hasn't stolen much, he/she can expect more incomings than say, a terran, which is in my mind, fair enough - supposedly the strenght of Ter is DEFENCE, and the general idea of Zik is what? Supposedly Etd is supposed to be the versitile bunch, but lets face it, when you need a 3-page battlecalc every time you make a fleet move, I think Zik somehow ended up being that. You know when you tell your Zik Ally-buddy on IRC to paste his fleet, you just tricked him into flooding out. It's bound to happen a few times each round. However the actual game manual refers to zik as some kind of mystery race... So how do you make ships reflect that then? Random targeting?
T1 Steal - T2: ???? - T3: PROFIT? That wouldn't work.

You do play Zik because you want to steal ships though, and with the run 'n hide, I assume a lot will be discouraged to play Zik, it just makes you sigh. So maybe add a little something to compensate for that, something that could encourage - like versitility? R34 stats originally (although not anymore) showed some Etd-steal ships that had tertiary (T3) targets. Perhaps some Zik ships could have a T3 target as well? If this should be a kill or steal ship is irrelevant to me, but I do like the idea, it would reflect the whole, blah blah, idea of versitility. Although it might just end up overpowered, say if a Clipper was able to reach down to CO with T3, or a Brigand to FR with T3, it would help a zik against what will without a shadow of a doubt, some popular ship choices this round, we WILL be seeing some significant amount of Xan FI/CO and Ter FR. In the same manner Thieves could reach to FR as T3 and Smuggler's to CO as T3. Although as said, this could make things a wee bit too much, and we'd have to tweak Zik DOWN again? Which would be tedious. To me the Cutlass and Buccaneer could benefit from this the most, without having to be tweaked down - because they're just not the most good looking ships currently.

As for Cath, the Locust seems a bit of an odd ship to add to a Cat fleet, low-low Init dosn't stick well to the whole idea and notion of Cat, but I like it. Should give Cat a real strenght, especially in In-gal def against Xan - having just one Cat in-gal to cross def with and who can fake the fleet double up, will surely encourage teamwork and scare off a lot of Xan Inc. And then again, when all is said and done, Cat could use some love, on a gal-raid night they do get hit pretty hard - not to mention that teaming up on a Cat, is pretty easy, once you start breaching the EMP barricade it becomes a slaughter pretty quickly, which isn't as much the case as with Ter. Although this does reflect the whole idea of Cat as a race, it is a bit much. The history in the manual states

However, when heavily outnumbered, they often suffer heavy defeats.

And to be blunt, you don't need to heavily outnumber a Cat, you need to barely outnumber him/her. So in all fairness, I think Cat's can just keep that Locust as it is right now. I find it the same with the Scorpion, odd ship, but if a Cat fleet is hit by say, Ter FR fleet, it helps. Makes the Cat CR fleet more viable to play as well, although the CR fleet could perhaps use a little more? I'm not entirely sure.

All in all, I find Ter looks relatively good. I wouldn't know too well though, been a while since I last played Ter and I wouldn't know what the typical issues would be. However, with the Centaur and Pegasus both having 5 Init, the Pegasus does lose some of it's value. Targeting FI before CO isn't always the biggest blessing either and personally I would find it more a curse than a blessing at all. The Pegasus sticks out of the targeting pattern and would to say a Xan fleet, melt first. Sure, the Pegasus does seem powerful, but I think people would rather add to their FR fleet than build a DE that dosn't meld. Reducing the Pegasus' init to 4 would ruin every Xan's day, so perhaps it's just fair that the Centaur has an init of 6 in order to make the Pegasus worth building? So the Pegasus would fire at the same time as Xan FI and the centaur would fire afterwards. Difficult to balance though.

Oh and what happend to the Phoenix from R33? Targeting CO/FI, the Phoenix was a somewhat useful addition to the Terr fleet for the purpose of In-alliance defence. It was also a ship of relatively good value as well, without being overpowered. For 7 ETA's in alliance now, would a Terr have to scramble harpies? The Harpy might so have been a neglected ship in the previous round (I hardly ever saw any) but firing at FI as T3, will not make it useful for Ally-def against FI/CO spam (and where else would you use it?) Firing at CO as T2 does help, but Xan and Etd can sport significant FI, and Zik and Cat could also be launching a small amount. Of course, having a phoenix in R34 would make the Harpy even MORE useless, however, maybe we should do something with the Harpy then? I think Ter could deserve having both the Harpy and Phoenix.

In this context, not all races have the same amount of ship types. Why not add a phoenix to Ter then, perhaps an other FR to Cat, call it the bloody ladybug, I don't know. To Xan I don't really have any good ideas.

Etd looks all over the place, I have no idea.

Now, feel free to disagree.


Short Version;
T3 targets for some Zik, how does that sound?
Reduce centaur init to 6 to make Pegasi viable, hm?
Bring back the Phoenix?
Keep the Locust and Scorpion.
Etd? No clue.

Thanks.




Edit; anyone ever contemplated ships that do different types of damage on primary, secondary and tertiary targets? Say, Emps T1, Kills T2, steals T3? Or in some mixed order. Would be confusing, but for a race like Etd, it would make it seem more a unique race, and not so much a combination of the other races. Though, this would surely not be implemented in the next 3-5 days anyway.

[snoops^]

Xan fi/co need more E/R atm beetles are far too beardy

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by Remy

imho cath locust should indeed not be init 4, but making it 8 is somewhat too much. I'd say init 6 is much better

Please elaborate how init 6 would make a difference compared to init 8.

[Doffeh]

Originally Posted by Patrikc

Please elaborate how init 6 would make a difference compared to init 8.

Vs Zik FI/CO, the Gnat and in the case of protecting your own fi/co vs anti fi/co, it would shoot out the avenger. So it would make a difference and a significant one.

[Remy]

Originally Posted by doffeh

vs zik fi/co, the gnat and in the case of protecting your own fi/co vs anti fi/co, it would shoot out the avenger. So it would make a difference and a significant one.

<3

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by Doffeh

Vs Zik FI/CO, the Gnat and in the case of protecting your own fi/co vs anti fi/co, it would shoot out the avenger. So it would make a difference and a significant one.

Zik Fi/Co already fires later than Locust. Gnat/Avenger will get frozen by Beetle should they attack you at all.

[Chancellor]

Originally Posted by snoops^

Xan fi/co need more E/R atm beetles are far too beardy

Consider the cost of the beetle, which is still high at 80/95/80 compared to previous rounds, and its guncount; 3.

Meanwhile, Xan fi/co basic ships sit at pretty much the same costs as last round.

Think it'll work out allright as it is.

[Appocomaster]

changes:

cutlass 43/43/53 => 40/40/39
predator +1 guns
locust init 8 -> 6
beetle 80/95/80 => 78/95/78
harpy emp res 40->44
phantom emp res 0->7
banshee emp res 7->12
revenant emp res 27->33

(most emp resistance increases to account for predator / beetle inc)

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

cutlass 43/43/53 => 40/40/39

(before some people get a boner; 40/40/49!)

[Doffeh]

Originally Posted by Patrikc

Zik Fi/Co already fires later than Locust. Gnat/Avenger will get frozen by Beetle should they attack you at all.

True about the Zik, but you shouldn't assume there's always enough beetles, especially not with Etd FI.

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by Doffeh

True about the Zik, but you shouldn't assume there's always enough beetles, especially not with Etd FI.

If there aren't enough Beetles to stun all the Etd Fi why are you keeping your Locusts home, which get shot t1 with 514 D/C at init 5?

[BaasB]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

changes:

cutlass 43/43/53 => 40/40/39
predator +1 guns
locust init 8 -> 6
beetle 80/95/80 => 78/95/78
harpy emp res 40->44
phantom emp res 0->7
banshee emp res 7->12
revenant emp res 27->33

(most emp resistance increases to account for predator / beetle inc)

I dont see the locust changed, maybe you changed the gnat?
Gnat Fighter Fr De - Norm 6 1 8 6 32 50 50 50 533 400 Cat
Locust Destroyer Co Fi - Norm 8 1 47 36 87 270 270 270 580 444 Cat

[Doffeh]

Originally Posted by Patrikc

If there aren't enough Beetles to stun all the Etd Fi why are you keeping your Locusts home, which get shot t1 with 514 D/C at init 5?

Force a recall? Assuming you didn't have enough beetles, you might have had enough locust to take the hit and crush the few that made it through, saving your own fi/co. There will always be a situation relevant enough.

[berten]

xan fi still seems very underpowered vs Beetle.
bcalc.pl?id=lyslejsq6qt22hj is kinda insane tbh.

Maybe let Revenant shoot CO @ T3? With the fi outflakking the emp this 'd atleast give xan some chance vs cat CO and not make it stronger vs any other race

[Doffeh]

Originally Posted by berten

xan fi still seems very underpowered vs Beetle.
bcalc.pl?id=lyslejsq6qt22hj is kinda insane tbh.

Maybe let Revenant shoot CO @ T3? With the fi outflakking the emp this 'd atleast give xan some chance vs cat CO and not make it stronger vs any other race

Xan FI is still powerful against a lot of other things. With it's epic init the whole idea is that only EMP can beat Xan to it. So in all fairness, Xan should just find it self underpowered to EMP (This is the bane of cloaked ships). Besides, with the enormous numbers Xan sports, you don't really need more. Also, assuming JUST beetles to defend against you, yet you assume you launch both Xan FI? Where's the logic? If a defender has ONLY anti FI, you as a Xan should launch ONLY anti CO of same value. Then last, you, do not lose a single ship, the Cat does. I played Xan FI/CO last round and often had the same difficulties, especially with the avengers been so popular - BUT, it wasn't unbalanced. Every fleet has it's strenghts and weaknesses.

Adding CO to the revenant T3 would make the revenant powerful against more than just beetles. There are other CO's in the stats table too.

[berten]

You are probably right

Switching sides on the calc etc tough wld've let it stay the same, my point was that +160% efficiency for beetle vs xan seems a bit overdoing it. (166% vs phantom 173% vs banshee, even vs revenant it's + 100% efficiency).

I agree that giving revenant co T3 wld make xan stronger vs zik and etd stealers, then again with banshee shooting CO at T1 the pillager/thief never stood a real chance anyway.

[Gio2k]

Originally Posted by Doffeh

Force a recall? Assuming you didn't have enough beetles, you might have had enough locust to take the hit and crush the few that made it through, saving your own fi/co. There will always be a situation relevant enough.

I guess he's trying to say that no matter if your locust shoot with ini6 or ini8, the etd avengers _still shoot first with ini5_

[lince]

Originally Posted by berten

xan fi still seems very underpowered vs Beetle.
bcalc.pl?id=lyslejsq6qt22hj is kinda insane tbh.

Maybe let Revenant shoot CO @ T3? With the fi outflakking the emp this 'd atleast give xan some chance vs cat CO and not make it stronger vs any other race

hmmm...

Revenant already owns Xan FR, Ter FR, Zik DE and Etd DE (predator shoots on CO as T2). You want also to own Cath, having Xan owning all DE/FR fleets + Co attack/defense fleets??? That's just too much.
If you want Revenent to target Cath as T3 make it init 5. You don't want that, do you?

[Gio2k]

Originally Posted by Doffeh

Xan FI is still powerful against a lot of other things. With it's epic init the whole idea is that only EMP can beat Xan to it. So in all fairness, Xan should just find it self underpowered to EMP (This is the bane of cloaked ships).

In principle, yes, cathaar are supposed to be good against xan, but over 170% efficiency is just ridiculous. Tbh, 160% efficiency is already taking the piss.

Originally Posted by Doffeh

Also, assuming JUST beetles to defend against you, yet you assume you launch both Xan FI? Where's the logic? If a defender has ONLY anti FI, you as a Xan should launch ONLY anti CO of same value.

Are you serious? If every xan played like this, i would go zik. Hell, maybe i will if you tell me whenever you attack a cath.

[isildurx]

What some are forgetting is that Xans can dump more value into their FI than caths can into beetles, so its not as big a deal as the efficiency says. And Xan should have a natural enemy in cath, or else noone would be able to stop them.

[berten]

Originally Posted by lince

hmmm...

Revenant already owns Xan FR, Ter FR, Zik DE and Etd DE (predator shoots on CO as T2). You want also to own Cath, having Xan owning all DE/FR fleets + Co attack/defense fleets??? That's just too much.
If you want Revenent to target Cath as T3 make it init 5. You don't want that, do you?

Giving Revenant a T3 CO wld not make them OWN cat co - it'd give them a chance.

as gio said +170% efficiency is just taking the piss and kinda eliminates the possibility of xan fi getting trough the emp, hence why a low efficiency CO T3 could help out here.

Do note that beetle shoots at rev with +100% efficiency

[Makhil]

The xans are playable, they only have to solve the banshee/revs ratio.
More Banshee will help you vs Cath CO and pure Ter FR incs, more revs vs DE incs...

[lince]

Originally Posted by berten

Giving Revenant a T3 CO wld not make them OWN cat co - it'd give them a chance.

as gio said +170% efficiency is just taking the piss and kinda eliminates the possibility of xan fi getting trough the emp, hence why a low efficiency CO T3 could help out here.

Do note that beetle shoots at rev with +100% efficiency

what you're saying is you want xan to hit all kind of combos in all races.
But if you look to other races: Ter can't hit Xan (both revs and PK stop decently Ter FR and BS fleets), Zik can't hit Xan (as usual), Etd can't hit Xan ( shadow owns Etd DE, BS gets eaten by Spirit T1). Xan can hit Xan??? Only with Fi (on the usual "Chicken Out" game). So, the only race able to really hit Xan is Cath.
If you want Xan to have a chance on hitting all races, give the other races chances to hit Xan also, make revenant init 5.

[Gio2k]

Talking about emp efficiencies, the ETD predator is even higher than the beetle.

[JonnyBGood]

Why do people care about cath? It's still completely unplayable.