So i was playing CS.....

[JammyJim]

And someone joined called [1 MINUTE SILENCE TOMORROW - WTC 9/11]

i pointed out that worse things have happened but we dont commemorate them every year
he said 'what'
so i battered him with some 'knowledge' and said 'Rwanda for one'
He then said something about that being natural......

Apparently the mass killing of black people is natural as long as its done with machetes and ak's whereas flying 2 planes into 2 towers is unnatural...

Obviously he hadnt got a clue so i explained what happened.....to which he said 'but it wasnt in my life time'.....except it was........and the recent sudanese genocide is also in our lifetime...

Yet we still dont even blink an eyelid when we hear news about it. However the WTC remains a huge part of peoples lives who dont even know anyone who was killed in it... or have even seen the buildings.

Yes i realise its a milestone in US history and an important cornerstone to US foreign policy for the decades to come but blithering on about it on Counterstrike of all things made me think 'wtf is going on here'.


It also made me think "am i the only educated person who plays CS?"
to which the answer is probably 'yes'.



Ive had many discussions with my gf (Kate) about this. Ive basically said that people dont give a shit if poor black people die in the middle of a bloody civil war because

a) its too far away
b) we cant relate to them
c) we cant imagine ourselves in a simliar situation

She argues that as human beings we should all feel compassion for others. She cries when she reads books about Rwanda and the like. I dont.....I dont seem to get affected by it that much at all. It sounds too far away and too unreal for me to relate to it in any meaningful way.

So the point of this post is :


Why is it that we dont care about what goes in the rest of the world? Why is it that unless it happens in America or Europe we couldnt quite frankly give a crap. I mean...yes yes its sad but its not 'OMG LETS REMEMBER IT EVERY YEAR WITH A MINUTE SILENCE' type event.
Yet in most cases what we cant relate to is a million times more bloody and horrific than our own little disasters.


Or maybe im wrong...and im the only cold hearted bastard here.....

[Smudge]

Your right

[Kurashima]

Its Official : Playing Counterstrike Lowers your IQ.

DOWN WITH THIS SORT OF THING!

[Dante Hicks]

Because it's on the telly in a more meaningful fashion?

Plus, as you say, it's easier to empathise with people who are "more like us". I can imagine an office I'm in being blown up. I can't imagine my "tribe" being rounded up and hacked to bits.

Finally, you can't underestimate the links between the US and Europe. There's been quite a few people I've encountered who had tenuous links to people in the building. Plus, one of the creators of Fraiser dying has more impact than five thousand other people who I've never heard of.

What the hell is the problem with people commemerating a large loss of life? Are you always that aggressive?

I don't think it's overtly racist. There wasn't a lot of sympathy shown to the Serbs when we were bombing them, for instance.

edit: While the idea of a brotherhood of man is nice and idealistic, it doesn't have much real-world application. Why should Africans give a shit about the 20 million+ Europeans who died in the Eastern Front in WW2 for instance?

[JammyJim]

"What the hell is the problem with people commemerating a large loss of life? Are you always that aggressive?"


nothing at all.
im sure ill hold the 1minute silence. however i was playing CS and he had killed me 4 times in a row so i decided to 'have a go'.

that lead to a further exploration of points ive already discussed with others and then me thinking "this is better if i just post on GD and see if anyone has an alternative point of view"

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by JammyJim

Why is it that we dont care about what goes in the rest of the world? Why is it that unless it happens in America or Europe we couldnt quite frankly give a crap. I mean...yes yes its sad but its not 'OMG LETS REMEMBER IT EVERY YEAR WITH A MINUTE SILENCE' type event.
Yet in most cases what we cant relate to is a million times more bloody and horrific than our own little disasters.


Or maybe im wrong...and im the only cold hearted bastard here.....

given how many people die every day you would turn insane the minute you start to care about everyone equally.
if you lost a relative/ firend in those attacks on the WTC thats another thing, but for the rest of the world: it wont bring anyone back if you are quite for one minute, its no use for them, they are dead.

[Vaio]

I think your girlfriend should read cosmo instead of books on Rwanda, this would have the double benefit of her not crying over stuff she can do nothing about and you get more sex (oh and get to fill in questionnaires on how much of a great lover you are)

~Vaio~

[1-X]

Originally Posted by John Donne

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

a bit poncey but true anyway

[Smudge]

Amen brother

[Tomkat]

It's because of the media. Think how hyped the WTC has been on TV and things.

It's also because we can relate to it. There's more of an "omg that could, like, happen to US" thing.

It's also because we don't have civil wars or whatever in our country(ies). It's just something we see on TV, and don't think about. Which is very bad and wrong, but we have our own problems (like money and girls and stuff, which are hideously trivial compared to these people's problems) and worrying about some black people being killed isn't going to help them.

[Androme]

You make quite a lot of assumptions JJ.

Originally Posted by JammyJim

Yet we still dont even blink an eyelid when we hear news about it. However the WTC remains a huge part of peoples lives who dont even know anyone who was killed in it... or have even seen the buildings.

Who's this we you speak of? Is it we as in you or we as in you have the whole world not even blinking an eyelid right there in your living room?
Just because you don't see anybody blinking an eyelid, unless they're there in your living room with you, I don't think it's fair to say that nobody cares, if a little naive of you to say the least.

Again you make an assumption that people don't know anybody who was killed in the WTC or that they've ever even been to the WTC when they were still standing? This seems like your opinion again on this, with all your worldly experience and all, you know exactly who knew or who didn't know somebody who died that day and you know who did and who didn't visit the WTC? Man I wish I was that psychic

You really feel that because you talk about wars and terrorism in a CS game this makes you more intelligent? Puh-lease, grow up.

Originally Posted by JammyJim

Yes i realise its a milestone in US history and an important cornerstone to US foreign policy for the decades to come but blithering on about it on Counterstrike of all things made me think 'wtf is going on here'.

This is just my take on it, yes my opinion, but the reason why it's a milestone is probably due to two factors.

1) A lot of innocent people died that day.
2) It proven that even such a country as America, the "Super Power" of the Planet is open to attack, open to grand scale terrorism.

Yes, there's stuff like this happening all over the world "Rwanda for one", however these wars happen in their own countries, domestic wars. Does that mean that we shouldn't mourn for their loss? No.
Does that mean we don't mourn for their loss? No.

But when one country, or rebel force, attacks another country then yes a big deal is made out of it, because it IS a big deal.

Originally Posted by JammyJim

It also made me think "am i the only educated person who plays CS?"
to which the answer is probably 'yes'.

See again, another fairly big assumption. You're 1 of 1000's -- probably ten times that -- who play CS yet you're the only educated one amongst them? You do realise that there are many many many servers on which people play CS right. Not just the one you're on.
I know many people who play CS, they range from "educated" teachers at my old college to managers of stores and such. And you are more educated? Ok, I see your point...

Originally Posted by JammyJim

Why is it that we dont care about what goes in the rest of the world? Why is it that unless it happens in America or Europe we couldnt quite frankly give a crap. I mean...yes yes its sad but its not 'OMG LETS REMEMBER IT EVERY YEAR WITH A MINUTE SILENCE' type event.

Yet in most cases what we cant relate to is a million times more bloody and horrific than our own little disasters.

There's that infamous we again.
Who says we don't care what goes on in the rest of the world?
Who says that we don't give a crap what happens to the rest of the world bar America or Europe?
I think you'll find the find the answer to both those questions is you say we don't care. Right, because you know what we all think. Did they tell you on CNN or something?

"yes yes its sad but its not 'OMG LETS REMEMBER IT EVERY YEAR WITH A MINUTE SILENCE' type event." - So if your family were in the WTC when it was attacked. You would just regard this day as any other and not bother to hold any silence, or think about your family? I find that very hard to believe...

[JonnyBGood]

One minute silences inhibit capitalism from achieving it's full potential and are therefore in direct contradiction with the fundamental principles of the United States.



Oh and those people who died in the twin towers contributed more, economically and intellectually, than those who died in Rwanda, or the Sudan.

[Dace]

"Were the people who jumped to their deaths from the Twin Towers killed by the terrorist or did they commit suicide?"

[JonnyBGood]

They committed suicide. I'd imagine most people who'd contest that would view suicide as something morally disgusting and are just trying to shelter themselves from reality.

[Leshy]

In this thread, Androme trolls again. Unsuccessfully. Again.

And I'd class the deaths of people who jumped from the Twin Towers as "forced suicide".

[Androme]

Originally Posted by Leshy

In this thread, Androme trolls again. Unsuccessfully. Again.

It was a genuwine reply with value of +1 as opposed to your post of value -1.

Go fondle Opera.

[KoeN]

Aimtbot Aimbot Aimbot!#@$

[Structural Integrity]

Originally Posted by Leshy

In this thread, Androme trolls again. Unsuccessfully. Again.

And I'd class the deaths of people who jumped from the Twin Towers as "forced suicide".

Forced? Like, "Now I'm going to kill myself else I'm going to die" kind of forced?

BTW, doesn't the bible somewhere write that people who commit suicide go to hell? I thought American people know the bible and believe in god and stuff, but still they jump from a building comitting suicide. Odd. Very odd. I say there was terrorists pushing them down, because any good christian wouldn't commit suicide.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Structural Integrity

Forced? Like, "Now I'm going to kill myself else I'm going to die" kind of forced?

Forced as in the "I can kill myself quickly now or die an agonizing and likely painful death instead".

I know that if I went to Iraq and got kidnapped by a bunch of fundamentalists who make a video tape of me while they shout "Allah Ackbar!", I'd probably off myself first chance I get before they start hacking at my neck with a teaspoon.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Leshy

And I'd class the deaths of people who jumped from the Twin Towers as "forced suicide".

Qualifications hardly change the fact it was suicide (I'm guessing you were disagreeing with my post here as it was directly after mine and seemed to implicitly refute it's essential assertion).







Do you see how I used complicated words unnecessarily there? I bet you did and thought "wow...what was the point of that?" Well to be honest I'm not sure but at least I didn't commit suicide like some ****ing losers. You know what I say, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.







PS

"A United States envoy has told Syria to pull its long-standing garrison out of Lebanon and stop intervening in its smaller neighbour's affairs."

I post this from the hospital where our hardworking medical services are working round the clock to stitch my split sides back together.

[Dace]

Originally Posted by Leshy

I know that if I went to Iraq and got kidnapped by a bunch of fundamentalists who make a video tape of me while they shout "Allah Ackbar!", I'd probably off myself first chance I get before they start hacking at my neck with a teaspoon.

Im pretty sure that if i had the ability to kill myself id kill one of them instead.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Qualifications hardly change the fact it was suicide (I'm guessing you were disagreeing with my post here as it was directly after mine and seemed to implicitly refute it's essential assertion).

A regular suicide would indicate a choice that one no longer wants to continue living and ending it prematurely, thus making it a choice between life and death. A forced suicide would indicate that there was not a choice to be made about whether to continue living or not, but more of what manner to die in.

Originally Posted by Dace

Im pretty sure that if i had the ability to kill myself id kill one of them instead.

In which case they'll cut off your balls and make you eat them before they saw off your head with a butter knife.

[Dace]

Originally Posted by Leshy

In which case they'll cut off your balls and make you eat them before they saw off your head with a butter knife.

Torture loses all (most*) of its power in the absence of hope.

If i killed one of them i know for definate (instead of just 99% sure) that id die.

As such its just a test of endurance rather than torture.

A test during which you have the "ha ha i ****ed you over" thought to keep you going.

For me it would be enough.















*obviously the immediate pain aspect of it is still a bit of a bitch

[Leshy]

Just a bit.

[Summanus]

Playing CS isn't bad of itself.

Playing on the internet is bad

Hooray for LANs!

[Boogster]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

They committed suicide. I'd imagine most people who'd contest that would view suicide as something morally disgusting and are just trying to shelter themselves from reality.

I'd say it was kind of grotesque to anaylse such matters.

[Boogster]

Uh. Yeah. Something went wrong here.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

They committed suicide. I'd imagine most people who'd contest that would view suicide as something morally disgusting and are just trying to shelter themselves from reality.

They didn't commit suicide in any meaningful sense.

And I certainly don't think suicide is morally disgusting. If anything it is the ultimate expression of individual freedom.

[Dead_Meat]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

You know what I say, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

Or, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the burning, 120 storey building by the only possible exit other than learning how to fly...am i rite?

[Zar]

zionists & media

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Leshy

A regular suicide would indicate a choice that one no longer wants to continue living and ending it prematurely, thus making it a choice between life and death. A forced suicide would indicate that there was not a choice to be made about whether to continue living or not, but more of what manner to die in.

It's still suicide. It just has none of the sickening moral superstructure behind it that is implied in the question posed by dace.

Originally Posted by Boogster

I'd say it was kind of grotesque to anaylse such matters.

O kay.

[KaneED]

hey, in future, instead of discussing things with kate, you can discuss them with me!

:love:


oh, and while the wtc disaster was bad, it doesn't bother me to remember.

however, november the 11th i observe a silence. and the holocaust made me feel sick to my stomach going to exhibitons and suchlike whereas rwanda makes me think 'oh stupid governments'. it bothers me but it doesn't. i'd be a good debater!

[Dace]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

It's still suicide. It just has none of the sickening moral superstructure behind it that is implied in the question posed by dace.

whatchamean?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Dace

whatchamean?

The fact you (this is, surprisingly, a general you) asked the question "Were the people who jumped to their deaths from the Twin Towers killed by the terrorist or did they commit suicide?" implies that this topic is worthy of discussion. I mean we wouldn't discuss whether those in the WTC were killed by the plane hitting the tower or the resultant fire or the buildings collapsing, those questions are clearly pretty irrelevant. The reason for asking your question is because it throws up a moral dilemma, "did those people commit suicide?", which is worthy of discussion. However this assumes that suicide is immoral, which I find to be a remnant of the freedom hating (lol) judaeo-christian (or is it judeo?) ethic in our society

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Plus, as you say, it's easier to empathise with people who are "more like us". I can imagine an office I'm in being blown up. I can't imagine my "tribe" being rounded up and hacked to bits.

Yes.

Its the same reason middle-class deaths make the newspapers, but noone cares when homeless bums die. Obviously this reason is far too simple though so it must be because Westerners are racist and dont like brown people.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

The reason for asking your question is because it throws up a moral dilemma, "did those people commit suicide?", which is worthy of discussion. However this assumes that suicide is immoral

That's a bit of a non-sequitur. There are various other reasons to discuss the topic (already mentioned on this thread) which don't relate to conemdenation of suicide.

[Dace]

And here was me thinking i was just trolling *shrug*

[Smudge]

Btw, after being spammed several times on MSN about putting an X at the start of ur name blah blah i invited them all in and gave them JammyJims arguement and they all either left, uttered abuses and left or just said nothing.

bunch of ass wipes

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

That's a bit of a non-sequitur. There are various other reasons to discuss the topic (already mentioned on this thread) which don't relate to conemdenation of suicide.

Where are these other reasons? After rereading the thread I cannot find them

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Where are these other reasons? After rereading the thread I cannot find them

They mainly centre around the definition of suicide - which is a fairly interesting distinction to me. There are posts by yourself, myself and Leshy in this thread on that subject, none of which contain any sort of outrage against the ethical notion of suicide.

[JonnyBGood]

Oh right, I was just referring to what the discussion is supposed to be like. I see now we operate outside the paradigm of traditional western ethics

[Quazi Starbucks]

1. I play Counterstrike
2. I am Educated

You can only really blame the US media

[Reidy]

Originally Posted by JammyJim

And someone joined called [1 MINUTE SILENCE TOMORROW - WTC 9/11]

i pointed out that worse things have happened but we dont commemorate them every year
he said 'what'
so i battered him with some 'knowledge' and said 'Rwanda for one'
He then said something about that being natural......

Apparently the mass killing of black people is natural as long as its done with machetes and ak's whereas flying 2 planes into 2 towers is unnatural...

Obviously he hadnt got a clue so i explained what happened.....to which he said 'but it wasnt in my life time'.....except it was........and the recent sudanese genocide is also in our lifetime...

Yet we still dont even blink an eyelid when we hear news about it. However the WTC remains a huge part of peoples lives who dont even know anyone who was killed in it... or have even seen the buildings.

Yes i realise its a milestone in US history and an important cornerstone to US foreign policy for the decades to come but blithering on about it on Counterstrike of all things made me think 'wtf is going on here'.


It also made me think "am i the only educated person who plays CS?"
to which the answer is probably 'yes'.



Ive had many discussions with my gf (Kate) about this. Ive basically said that people dont give a shit if poor black people die in the middle of a bloody civil war because

a) its too far away
b) we cant relate to them
c) we cant imagine ourselves in a simliar situation

She argues that as human beings we should all feel compassion for others. She cries when she reads books about Rwanda and the like. I dont.....I dont seem to get affected by it that much at all. It sounds too far away and too unreal for me to relate to it in any meaningful way.

So the point of this post is :


Why is it that we dont care about what goes in the rest of the world? Why is it that unless it happens in America or Europe we couldnt quite frankly give a crap. I mean...yes yes its sad but its not 'OMG LETS REMEMBER IT EVERY YEAR WITH A MINUTE SILENCE' type event.
Yet in most cases what we cant relate to is a million times more bloody and horrific than our own little disasters.


Or maybe im wrong...and im the only cold hearted bastard here.....

I think the problem for alot of people is that they forget the extent of Africa, the media might focus on Rwanda or Sudan but theres problems throughout the contient. Take Botswana for example, in 1994 life expectancy was 61 yrs old, in January 05 its going to be 41 yrs old. The media only seems interested in war, they seem to enjoy ignoring aids, does my head in! Maybe we could commemorate the reductions in life expectancy that occur on a yearly basis.

[Dace]

only fags get aids tho

[Boogster]

I like the mix of the absurdly political and the politically absurd in this thread - except that it's hard to laugh and vomit at the same time.

[IncubusGod]

Originally Posted by JammyJim

And someone joined called [1 MINUTE SILENCE TOMORROW - WTC 9/11]

20 quid says he only played Counter-Terrorist.

[Sunday8pm]

Originally Posted by Vaio

I think your girlfriend should read cosmo instead of books on Rwanda, this would have the double benefit of her not crying over stuff she can do nothing about and you get more sex (oh and get to fill in questionnaires on how much of a great lover you are)

~Vaio~

Erotic fairytale novels are better.

The Trilogy of the Claiming of Cinderella works on levels that not even rophynol can achieve.