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Unread 25 Jan 2015, 09:42   #1
Forest
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Round 61 stats

Any volunteers to make some?

Would be good to start beta'ing some soon
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Unread 25 Jan 2015, 12:12   #2
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Re: Round 61 stats

If Appoco could post a short explanation why m0rpheus' and Butcher's stats weren't chosen, that would give them a second chance to tweak (if possible) their stats for r61, should they wish to do so. Tweaking stats is always less work than making brand new stats.
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Unread 25 Jan 2015, 12:47   #3
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Re: Round 61 stats

He did not feel that eff/armor was finished
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Unread 25 Jan 2015, 16:02   #4
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Re: Round 61 stats

ok how about we work on them stats some more them then?

(and by 'we', i mean 'you guys', as i suck at stats)
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Unread 25 Jan 2015, 16:28   #5
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Re: Round 61 stats

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Originally Posted by Forest View Post
ok how about we work on them stats some more them then?

(and by 'we', i mean 'you guys', as i suck at stats)
Well im pretty sure everyone would be questioning the EMP eff of this round with a closer look.
Defender is 200%+ vs DE for example.

Id be happy to rerun a stats set, atleast then nobody would claim that they aint balanced out enough to be run in a real round.
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Unread 25 Jan 2015, 20:29   #6
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Re: Round 61 stats

I asked for access to beta the other day and was told m0rph's getting first shot at it.
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Unread 25 Jan 2015, 20:55   #7
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Re: Round 61 stats

Plenty o' time.
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Unread 25 Jan 2015, 20:56   #8
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Re: Round 61 stats

I think m0's are a good set to build on, although there doesn't appear to be very many options available within each race.
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Unread 28 Jan 2015, 07:56   #9
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Re: Round 61 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
If Appoco could post a short explanation why m0rpheus' and Butcher's stats weren't chosen, that would give them a second chance to tweak (if possible) their stats for r61, should they wish to do so. Tweaking stats is always less work than making brand new stats.
This, also seconding m0's stats should be a good starting point.
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Unread 29 Jan 2015, 02:41   #10
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Re: Round 61 stats

I think r46 stats are decent too
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Unread 6 Feb 2015, 16:41   #11
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Re: Round 61 stats

hi
appoco told me heīd review my set of stats for r61

he wanted me to fix targeting as a first as a lot of T1 targets werent distributed evenly

ill try get a hold of him over the weekend, and see if he will put them on beta again

so we can start with it allready
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Unread 8 Feb 2015, 10:59   #12
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Re: Round 61 stats

They are up on beta Server again

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats

Ideas and thoughts welcome

@Isil: That could probs only be achieved by adding more ships (out of roiding class) - but i dont wanna add useless ships that arent build.
Aswell it will make it harder for them "unexpirienced" i think - who tend to build all sorts of stuff - it will make their fleets even worse i am afraid. Again i am open for suggestions though.
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Unread 8 Feb 2015, 15:24   #13
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Re: Round 61 stats

Just because a ship is out of the roidclass doesn't mean it's useless. You just have to make them worth building.
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Unread 8 Feb 2015, 19:57   #14
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Re: Round 61 stats

The stats look decent, not a fan of corv on corv, frig on frig and cruiser on cruiser targetting but at least it isn't t1 If I was to play these I would go either ter co and cr or etd fi and de with avengers.

Edit - I would give bombers init 5 as xans will take a while to get cr and they have no fi/co roiding fleets.
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Unread 9 Feb 2015, 18:15   #15
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Just because a ship is out of the roidclass doesn't mean it's useless. You just have to make them worth building.
You misread me, i wasnt saying any out of roiding class ship is useless, i was trying to say that i dont wanna add out of roiding class ships that are useless.

So basically, that i dont wanna add ships just for the sake of adding ships
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Unread 9 Feb 2015, 21:55   #16
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Re: Round 61 stats

he is a list of changes I would suggest...

Terran
Phoenix armour to around 600 a/c lower damage to 300-320
Sylph armour to around 600 a/c lower damage to 300-320 d/c
Remove Pegasus or change to init 8
Hydra remove t2 cr
Dragon change t1 cr t2 bs t3 de armour to 550-600 a/c

cath
No changes (its ok to have 0 loss targetting for emp only)

Xan
Bomber change init to 5
Fireblade change targetting to t1 cr t2 bs
Wraith remove t2 cr

Zik
remove t3 from Buccaneer
add t3 to pirate cr.

Etd
No changes.
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Unread 11 Feb 2015, 05:58   #17
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Re: Round 61 stats

Having a look at the stats as they stand ... they look decent but you have to take into consideration of playing options in 3 phases ... early - mid - end round.

Also you need to take into account for each roiding fleet on how a DC would defuse an attack and with the current fleets I would say there is too many roiding ships that fire on each other like co on co, fr on fr and cr on cr, and bs on bs for non emp ships (at least they arent t1) only takes 1-2 fleets to crash for roids.

To compensate for defense tolerance I would suggest the following changes to make the fleets more competitive.... after all who likes crashing for roids

Terran

Harpy change to init 7 and t1 co and t2 fi. Armour 550a/c ish and damage 300-320 d/c
Phoenix change to t1 fi no t2 and init 6
Sylph no change
Scrap Pegasus
Syren increase of armour to 500-550 a/c
Hydra no t2
Dragon t1 cr t2 de armour increase to 550 a/c ish

Cath
Mantis change to de class t1 cr t2 bs emp init 3 (init 2 is still ok)

Xan
phantom init 7 cloaked t1 fi t2 co (balance ship costs to equal metal crystal eonium)
Banshee remove t3 increase armour slightly
Bomber init 5
Ghost remove t2 fr
fireblade change t1 to cr and t2 bs
Wraith remove t2 cr.

Zik
Ravager remove t2 co
Buccaneer remove t3 de
Pirate change to t1 de t2 cr

Etd
Avenger remove t3 fr

Analysis of each Roiding fleet.

Terran
Ter Co (as they stand) just takes 1-2 fleets of Ravagers and Phoenix to force a recall
Ter Co (with the above changes) only beetle is 0 loss def but it is emp = no losses. Ally defence eta (hulls 1 class)
harpy(fires after), phantom(fires after), cutlass (fires after) Creditor (fires before but emp)
Ingal defence options (hulls 2 class) bombers fire first, thief and avengers fire after.

Summary Ter co as they stand is hard to land without crashing for roids only realistic targets would be small caths and etd.
With the changes they can roid all but hulls 2 xans

Ter Cr (as they stand) just takes 1-2 fleets of Hydra and wraith to force a recall.
Ter Cr (with the above changes) No 0 loss defence,
Ally defence eta -1 (hulls2 class) Scarab and mantis (emp but fire before) Fireblade and baliff (fire after)
Ally defence eta 0 (hulls3 class) Tarantula (emp but fires before) Rogue (fires before) investor and dragon (fires after)

Summary... Ter Cr as it stands is a decent fleet but too easy to defend but with the changes its only really open to rogue defence.

Cathaar
Cath De (as they stand) good for hitting frig planets but too easy to emp flak with frig defence so open to bs/cr def ships ingal needs an additional ship
Cath De (with the above changes) compensates for having the mantis as a de ship to emp cr ships.
Alliance eta 0 (hulls2 class) viper (same init emp) Ghost (fires after) Clipper (fires after) Avenger (fires after)
Ingal defence options (hulls 3 class) Roach (same init emp) Illuminator (fires before emp) Syren, wraith, Pirate, Investor (fire after)

Cath Bs (as they stand) really good roiding fleet with scope for capping other bs ships from the widdow in the de fleet
Cath BS (with the changes) as above but pirates can no longer be used in defence. mantis is an additional defence ship that is ally eta -1 (hulls 2 class)

Summary... with the changes it would make the fleet more viable.

Xandathrii
Xan fr (as they stand) only good for roiding ziks and etd but too easy to defend against due to slow init bombers and frig defence
Xan fr (with the above changes) a really good roiding fleet where only emp fires before it and should encourage more players to consider xan as xan frig can potentally roid all races.

Summary... with the changes it would become a great solo roiding fleet (option zik fr team up for better % of landing)

Xan Cr (as they stand) only takes 1-2 fleets of hydra and wraiths to force a recall.
Xan Cr (with the changes) fires after emp class defence, Rogue fire before it, Dragon and investor fires after it.

Zikonian
Zik co (as they stand) very hard to land an attack without losses only real option is smaller caths but only needs 1-2 def fleets to cover
Zik co (with the changes) can roid terrans, caths and other ziks

Summary with the changes zik co become a decent roiding option and can also solo on most races.

Zik frig (as they stand) its is a rather weak roiding fleet and is likely to be used in team ups / defence
Zik frig (with the changes) less open to defence but is still weak would need to cap some other frig to compensate for it.

Zik bs (as they stand) decent fleet but is imo too open to de class defence and would need to cap cath bs or team up.
Zik bs (with teh changes) less open to zik bs defence, Tarantula are 0 loss defence but they are emp.

Eitraides
Etd fi (as they stand) good fleet especially if you can cap non emp fi ships, can potentally roid all races
Etd fi (with the changes) just pretty much the same

Etd de (as they stand) cant roid ziks as they stand due to Buccaneer being 0 loss defence (even though it is t3)
Etd de (with the changes) can now roid ziks aswell as other etd and caths with low anti de open to Ghost defence and ingal syren and wraith defence.


Alliance options... with the changes you could go co or bs, possibly cr and de ... all xan fr is the best offensive option but defense wise more open than other set ups.
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Unread 11 Feb 2015, 06:06   #18
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Terran
Phoenix armour to around 600 a/c lower damage to 300-320
Sylph armour to around 600 a/c lower damage to 300-320 d/c
Remove Pegasus or change to init 8
Hydra remove t2 cr
Dragon change t1 cr t2 bs t3 de armour to 550-600 a/c

cath
No changes (its ok to have 0 loss targetting for emp only)

Xan
Bomber change init to 5
Fireblade change targetting to t1 cr t2 bs
Wraith remove t2 cr

Zik
remove t3 from Buccaneer
add t3 to pirate cr.

Etd
No changes.
i like some of the suggestions, eg. removing the init advantage of pegs - and removing the cr firing on cr stuff - not going to give Xan the init advantage over co though. t3 on bucc is wrong btw - that should be CR
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Unread 11 Feb 2015, 06:21   #19
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Having a look at the stats as they stand ... they look decent but you have to take into consideration of playing options in 3 phases ... early - mid - end round.

Also you need to take into account for each roiding fleet on how a DC would defuse an attack and with the current fleets I would say there is too many roiding ships that fire on each other like co on co, fr on fr and cr on cr, and bs on bs for non emp ships (at least they arent t1) only takes 1-2 fleets to crash for roids.

To compensate for defense tolerance I would suggest the following changes to make the fleets more competitive.... after all who likes crashing for roids

Terran

Harpy change to init 7 and t1 co and t2 fi. Armour 550a/c ish and damage 300-320 d/c
Phoenix change to t1 fi no t2 and init 6
Sylph no change
Scrap Pegasus
Syren increase of armour to 500-550 a/c
Hydra no t2
Dragon t1 cr t2 de armour increase to 550 a/c ish

Cath
Mantis change to de class t1 cr t2 bs emp init 3 (init 2 is still ok)

Xan
phantom init 7 cloaked t1 fi t2 co (balance ship costs to equal metal crystal eonium)
Banshee remove t3 increase armour slightly
Bomber init 5
Ghost remove t2 fr
fireblade change t1 to cr and t2 bs
Wraith remove t2 cr.

Zik
Ravager remove t2 co
Buccaneer remove t3 de
Pirate change to t1 de t2 cr

Etd
Avenger remove t3 fr

Analysis of each Roiding fleet.

Terran
Ter Co (as they stand) just takes 1-2 fleets of Ravagers and Phoenix to force a recall
Ter Co (with the above changes) only beetle is 0 loss def but it is emp = no losses. Ally defence eta (hulls 1 class)
harpy(fires after), phantom(fires after), cutlass (fires after) Creditor (fires before but emp)
Ingal defence options (hulls 2 class) bombers fire first, thief and avengers fire after.

Summary Ter co as they stand is hard to land without crashing for roids only realistic targets would be small caths and etd.
With the changes they can roid all but hulls 2 xans

Ter Cr (as they stand) just takes 1-2 fleets of Hydra and wraith to force a recall.
Ter Cr (with the above changes) No 0 loss defence,
Ally defence eta -1 (hulls2 class) Scarab and mantis (emp but fire before) Fireblade and baliff (fire after)
Ally defence eta 0 (hulls3 class) Tarantula (emp but fires before) Rogue (fires before) investor and dragon (fires after)

Summary... Ter Cr as it stands is a decent fleet but too easy to defend but with the changes its only really open to rogue defence.

Cathaar
Cath De (as they stand) good for hitting frig planets but too easy to emp flak with frig defence so open to bs/cr def ships ingal needs an additional ship
Cath De (with the above changes) compensates for having the mantis as a de ship to emp cr ships.
Alliance eta 0 (hulls2 class) viper (same init emp) Ghost (fires after) Clipper (fires after) Avenger (fires after)
Ingal defence options (hulls 3 class) Roach (same init emp) Illuminator (fires before emp) Syren, wraith, Pirate, Investor (fire after)

Cath Bs (as they stand) really good roiding fleet with scope for capping other bs ships from the widdow in the de fleet
Cath BS (with the changes) as above but pirates can no longer be used in defence. mantis is an additional defence ship that is ally eta -1 (hulls 2 class)

Summary... with the changes it would make the fleet more viable.

Xandathrii
Xan fr (as they stand) only good for roiding ziks and etd but too easy to defend against due to slow init bombers and frig defence
Xan fr (with the above changes) a really good roiding fleet where only emp fires before it and should encourage more players to consider xan as xan frig can potentally roid all races.

Summary... with the changes it would become a great solo roiding fleet (option zik fr team up for better % of landing)

Xan Cr (as they stand) only takes 1-2 fleets of hydra and wraiths to force a recall.
Xan Cr (with the changes) fires after emp class defence, Rogue fire before it, Dragon and investor fires after it.

Zikonian
Zik co (as they stand) very hard to land an attack without losses only real option is smaller caths but only needs 1-2 def fleets to cover
Zik co (with the changes) can roid terrans, caths and other ziks

Summary with the changes zik co become a decent roiding option and can also solo on most races.

Zik frig (as they stand) its is a rather weak roiding fleet and is likely to be used in team ups / defence
Zik frig (with the changes) less open to defence but is still weak would need to cap some other frig to compensate for it.

Zik bs (as they stand) decent fleet but is imo too open to de class defence and would need to cap cath bs or team up.
Zik bs (with teh changes) less open to zik bs defence, Tarantula are 0 loss defence but they are emp.

Eitraides
Etd fi (as they stand) good fleet especially if you can cap non emp fi ships, can potentally roid all races
Etd fi (with the changes) just pretty much the same

Etd de (as they stand) cant roid ziks as they stand due to Buccaneer being 0 loss defence (even though it is t3)
Etd de (with the changes) can now roid ziks aswell as other etd and caths with low anti de open to Ghost defence and ingal syren and wraith defence.


Alliance options... with the changes you could go co or bs, possibly cr and de ... all xan fr is the best offensive option but defense wise more open than other set ups.
First of all thanks for putting that much effort in analyzing and suggestioning - i absolutely agree on the same class firing and am looking to remove it

the suggested changes are good i think, but i have to edit them in on paper to see the overall effects
i am not sure if i want to give xan fr the init advantage you suggest though

i got vacation from today on, so will have some time to spent on all this finally
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Unread 11 Feb 2015, 06:43   #20
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
First of all thanks for putting that much effort in analyzing and suggestioning - i absolutely agree on the same class firing and am looking to remove it

the suggested changes are good i think, but i have to edit them in on paper to see the overall effects
i am not sure if i want to give xan fr the init advantage you suggest though

i got vacation from today on, so will have some time to spent on all this finally
Aye no problem, if you are concerned about xan frig having init 5 you could for example have an additional co pod for cath and change the spider to corvette class t1 fr t2 fi init 1 or 2 emp as a possible solution
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Unread 13 Feb 2015, 17:12   #21
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Re: Round 61 stats

UPDATE

Been looking to remove the same class firing - tried the suggestions of Paisley - but the Set became to much of a Single Targeting Set for my liking - and either do full ST or do a real MT imho

Basically co is still firing on co - but its only Ter Co which really is a Co-Stopper by nature (2nd target though)
The other CO hitting CO is either t3, emp or steal
Co allready been targeted by one upclass (fr), i didnt want to add a second (de) to it
Fighter also pretty much unchanged - only hit by fi and co - mutual attack class firing kinda irrelevant with only emp fi attack fleets (if nothing stolen)
Terran covopping FI Pods is a nice option though - but also a lot of anti fi around with phantoms and ofc emp prefiring potential terran fi attackfleets - a/c and d/c of harpy lowered slightly.
For other races i didnt wanna add this possibility apart from zik (stealing though). So their FI either hit FI only or CO only

Frigate now not firing on Frigate anymore, but therefore CR and vice versa

Battleships now only hit by DE and CR

Think thats some good workarounds without changing the overall functionality and character of this set too much

Aswell id be suggesting along with this set to highe XAN research output a lil, while lowering ETDīs
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Unread 14 Feb 2015, 18:31   #22
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
UPDATE

Been looking to remove the same class firing - tried the suggestions of Paisley - but the Set became to much of a Single Targeting Set for my liking - and either do full ST or do a real MT imho

Basically co is still firing on co - but its only Ter Co which really is a Co-Stopper by nature (2nd target though)
The other CO hitting CO is either t3, emp or steal
Co allready been targeted by one upclass (fr), i didnt want to add a second (de) to it
Fighter also pretty much unchanged - only hit by fi and co - mutual attack class firing kinda irrelevant with only emp fi attack fleets (if nothing stolen)
Terran covopping FI Pods is a nice option though - but also a lot of anti fi around with phantoms and ofc emp prefiring potential terran fi attackfleets - a/c and d/c of harpy lowered slightly.
For other races i didnt wanna add this possibility apart from zik (stealing though). So their FI either hit FI only or CO only

Frigate now not firing on Frigate anymore, but therefore CR and vice versa

Battleships now only hit by DE and CR

Think thats some good workarounds without changing the overall functionality and character of this set too much

Aswell id be suggesting along with this set to highe XAN research output a lil, while lowering ETDīs
Its not a question of having full MT or Full ST, Its about having a set of stats that allows players good roiding options especially when folk have complained when the stats are defensive. there has been calls on AD to mothball Isilx's stats.

With the new changes the only real option for roids is going cath bs or etd fi fleet as they get first cut in and have the option to steal kill ships to compliment the EMP ships. You will naturally have xan and zik players who go the respective races because they either like faking alot or are kleptomaniacs.

Historically r38 and r40 were good MT stats because there was alliances who were aiming for #1 and went all in to go for it. Full MT stats (or 3 ship spam as I call it) in the current "NAPtarion" state it wouldn't be good at all.

R42 were good single targetting stats, I remember playing zik because they are good against xan (because they got first cut in against the xan def ships) and there was good scope to fake de as cr. In theory with the beta stats you could fake cath de as bs but you would need to cherry pick your targets. It is possible to fake xan fr as cr but cherry picking targets is needed.

Personally I prefer limited t2 stats (where every ship has targetting with a purpose)

What I would like you to do with your changes M0rpheus is to give a fleet analysis of each roiding fleet and give expectations to what the alliance will likely pick / choices the alliances will have.
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Unread 19 Feb 2015, 05:48   #23
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Re: Round 61 stats

UPDATE
Some Inits adjusted to make zik, xan and ter more viable for teamplay and to make this set overall more offensive

Ter CR now prefires ZIK BS (Xan Cr still gets stopped by those)
This makes Ter CR fleets be useful for anyone aiming to go CR

Ter FI prefires Ter CO, Zik CO not though - so this will make Zik CO a useful partner for everyone aiming to pick CO as a strategy

ZIK Fr now prefires CO though making em the useful partner for any XAN FR players
(this is a workaround for giving xan the init advantage themselves)

Cat DE added to emp CR as T1

This is making the set more offensive then before (the current politcal situation shows this is needed to have a fun round again)
Basically only 2 Teamups are prefired by none EMP - First CO Teams with their eta advantage and Second FR teams which have a cloaked factor. Also both are prefired by highter classes (FR for CO-Teams and CR for FR-Teams)


Etd FI can solo roid anyone
no Teamup option

Ter CO can solo roid CAT, XAN, ETD
Zik CO can solo roid CAT
CO Teams can roid TER, CAT, XAN, ETD

Xan FR can solo roid CAT, ZIK, ETD
Zik FR can solo roid CAT
FR Teams can roid TER, CAT, ZIK, ETD

Cat DE can solo roid anyone
Etd DE can solo roid TER, CAT, ZIK, ETD
DE Teams can roid anyone

Ter CR can solo roid TER, CAT, ZIK
Xan CR can solo roid TER, CAT, XAN, ETD
CR Teams can roid anyone

Cat BS can solo roid anyone
Zik BS can solo roid CAT
BS Teams can roid anyone

Effs are not touched yet - so there may be some weird results on EMP Effs
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 00:13   #24
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Re: Round 61 stats

not to sound picky as i just quickly looked at the stats but, zik and cath that "in line kinda makes hard for another setup to be chosen.
This teamup is always very strong. Having two pods the same.... thats kinda scary.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 06:51   #25
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
not to sound picky as i just quickly looked at the stats but, zik and cath that "in line kinda makes hard for another setup to be chosen.
This teamup is always very strong. Having two pods the same.... thats kinda scary.
Zik and Cat only share 1 podclass ?
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 08:34   #26
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Re: Round 61 stats

I think Zik really need to have co pods removed it really unbalances the roid classes Right now its 1 Fi / 2 Co / 2 Fr / 2 De / 2 Cr / 2 Bs And Zik really doesnt need extra pod classes since they can steal them if needed.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 08:59   #27
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Re: Round 61 stats

I have to say thanks to M0rph for giving his insight to the roiding fleets.
With the exception of Etd Fi and Cath Bs fleet (cath de is a big improvement but is weak v ingal bs/cr fleets), team ups with cross race attacks required to cover weaknesses (for example zik/xan frig ter/xan cr fleets etc)

Co fleets are still broken imo (too easy for a good DC to stop)

I have to ask for M0rph's expectation of possible alliance strategies.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 11:42   #28
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I think Zik really need to have co pods removed it really unbalances the roid classes Right now its 1 Fi / 2 Co / 2 Fr / 2 De / 2 Cr / 2 Bs And Zik really doesnt need extra pod classes since they can steal them if needed.
i am fine with removing the co pods for ziks,
however i think co isnt overly strong - and this would weaken it even more

co is prefired by ZIK fr and same init fired by TER co allready - i even added a additional co for cath - so they can covop co pods and be a useful co partner
and tbh i think co only works if cath does that

so i am unsure what removing the co pod from ziks helps the case

at the same time i dont want co to be overly strong (fi is allready)
due to their init advantage
i dont want every other meta class be spared because fi/co simply is the easiest way for roids
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 11:58   #29
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I have to say thanks to M0rph for giving his insight to the roiding fleets.
With the exception of Etd Fi and Cath Bs fleet (cath de is a big improvement but is weak v ingal bs/cr fleets), team ups with cross race attacks required to cover weaknesses (for example zik/xan frig ter/xan cr fleets etc)

Co fleets are still broken imo (too easy for a good DC to stop)

I have to ask for M0rph's expectation of possible alliance strategies.
co is probably the weakest of all roiding fleets - followed by DE - though DE 1) has emp to be able to land everything if not outflaked and 2) their teammate can fake - so not too weak overall in my eyes

some attack fleet has to be weaker then others, cant have em all be awesome - the combat engine does not allow that

for alliance strategies i am unsure what i should post
there is quite a lot possibilities
cr/bs both are very strong in attack - there wont be the flaking options like in isils r60 stats to cover those fleets
fi is fast and strong
fr also hard to stop until xans have cr at least
then the de combo - which offers a lot of good ships defensively - so a very good choice for beeing more focussed on defence
at last co attack fleets who will probably just be a second grade attack fleet for most - but thats pretty much my intention with this set like i stated above

tbh for my own alliance - id recommend looking at universal distribution of races before picking
the same set can work totally diffrent in 2 universes with totally diffrent racial distribution
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 12:58   #30
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Re: Round 61 stats

Because if your going to have 2 Co pods why don't you have 2 Fi pods? You inheritantly are going to either a) make Co the most dominant def fleet in the uni or b) make it the worst class in the stats. you have almost 2x as many co as you do fi and will tip the balance of ships drastically. Also if you don't think a Cath Co setup wont work then your out of your mind. Since cov ops are one of caths strong suits its really not that hard to get co pods.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 17:07   #31
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Re: Round 61 stats

General:

Liking that each race has either a fleet with a single roiding class and 4 ships to fully cover, or a fleet with 2 roiding classes and 5 ships to fully cover.

Targeting in general looks good too, with only 2 classes targeting themselves. I'm also curious how the targeting of Fi and Bs will work out in practice.

Overall, these stats look very good to me, save for a couple of glaring issue (see below).

Ter:

Pegasus is useless. With my Co fleet, I already have anti-Co, and for anti-De I'd rather use the Hydra for T1. With my Cr fleet, I want anti-Fi and anti-Co, so I want the Harpy there. I'd be more inclined to build it with a Co fleet if it fired T1 De. T2 isn't even necessary.

Cat:

People often underestimate how bad 3-ship roiding fleets are compared to 2-ship ones. It's better to invest extra hard in Scarab than to make any Arachnid at all. That's just how the math works out, even if De is not your primary fleet. The better init on the Arachnid is nearly useless, as the Tula is the only ship that fires at De at init 2, and its ETA is too low for alliance defence anyway. And since the Widow isn't that good anyway, the balance tips even further in favour of just building a ton of Scarab, though I wouldn't advise skipping the Widow too.

Spider suffers from being too slow. Firing at Etd Fi at init 7 just doesn't cut it. And since I don't need to hide my ships from Etd Fi anyway, it's better to build Beetles (which covers 2 of the 3 Co fleets too) and leave them home to flak. I don't see a way for a Fi ship to become useful for Cat at all, to be honest. Either move it to Fr or Cr and change it utterly, or just remove it. Cat has plenty of ships to choose from anyway.

That still doesn't fix the general crappiness of the Cat De fleet, unfortunately, which can roid almost nothing (only Xan Fr for sure, and maybe other Cats or Etd). Viper/Scarab might look good defensively too, but unfortunately Fr and De can only flak each other against Cr. Maybe remove the Arachnid and add a T2 Cr target to the Widow?

While we're talking about Cat anyway, Mantis. You need Widow as anti-Bs in a Cat De fleet, and you want to steal Bs with a Co/Bs setup, and you don't need EMP beyond what little the Scarab provides. Mantis might become a little less crap if Spider became a Cr.

However, my main worry is about the incredible synergy between Zik and Cat. Both races get Co and Bs roiding fleets without any overlap (Zik and Cat Co both cover Fi-Fr and Cat and Zik Bs both cover De-Cr), and EMP/Steal are known to work extremely well together. The fact that Cat has no Co pods is not enough of a handicap. As the stats stand now, I see no reason for any alliance to go anything other than Cat/Zik Co/Bs, with a smattering of Ter Co/Cr to cover the Bs hole. This is the by far the most severe problem with these stats.


Xan:

Xan roids hard, but gets roided hard in return. If XP was still viable, this'd be the XP race. Since we don't, I guess it's fairly middle of the road.

Cr is very strong, but with Xan research, hard to reach, so I feel that balances out. Fr is solid, not too strong, not to weak.

I'm a little worried about both Fr and Cr roiding itself.

Zik:

Cutlass is useless. Zik Co covers Fi/Co on its own, and Zik Fr covers Co on its own, making the Ravager a better choice. Zik can't steal Fi, so maybe moving it to De to kill Fi/Fr or Fr/Fi would be good? That'd help out Zik Fr too, which is pretty weak.

Bs is very strong, even without Cat backup. With Cat backup, the fleet becomes unstoppable (see above), with great faking abilities to boot. I'd be inclined to remove the Bs pod, since Bs is stronger than Co (solo and in team-ups), and both Crook and Bucc steal Bs, providing some opportunity for stealing pods.

Investor and Widow steal each other at same init.

Etd:

Dealer is useless. Etd Fi/De is a great fleet, and building a 6th ship (along with either Investor or Avenger) off-class just to steal some Fi (which you don't want anyway, because Etd has the strongest Fi in the game) seems like a waste to me.

Illuminator is useless because Baliff covers Bs from a roiding class, and I need a T1 anti-De ship anyway.

I don't see a good way to fix these 2 Etd ships. There's such great synergy between Fi and De that it's almost always pointless to build anything other than something to stop De.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 21:40   #32
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Re: Round 61 stats

just some quick thought without changes alongside

yes i think BS is too strong - i dont see a good workaround though - apart from the suggested removal of BS pods for ZIK
tbh i had hoped the illuminator is good enough to stop BS along with flaked DE but this is not the case i think
maybe the Mantis set to init1 helps the case in addition - but i dont feel it would be enough

atm i tend to remove the zik BS pod like suggested - and have only 1 race with BS pods

For cathaar spider i agree as long as i keep the T2 on the beetle
- removing that is something i was thinking about though for long
It would open up cath wide for FI incs and make the stealing of co pods less attractive and co-teaming less powerful
(or remove the moth and have beetle target FR/CO)

Mainly thats the 2 concerns i have myself
1) BS too strong
2) CO either the worst or too strong and widely spread
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 21:51   #33
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Re: Round 61 stats

Ill start looking at stats when round has stopped.
If you have a clear view of what your stats is gonna be, just go with that and modify the biggest flaws.
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Unread 21 Feb 2015, 09:25   #34
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
General:

Liking that each race has either a fleet with a single roiding class and 4 ships to fully cover, or a fleet with 2 roiding classes and 5 ships to fully cover.

Targeting in general looks good too, with only 2 classes targeting themselves. I'm also curious how the targeting of Fi and Bs will work out in practice.

Overall, these stats look very good to me, save for a couple of glaring issue (see below).

Ter:

Pegasus is useless. With my Co fleet, I already have anti-Co, and for anti-De I'd rather use the Hydra for T1. With my Cr fleet, I want anti-Fi and anti-Co, so I want the Harpy there. I'd be more inclined to build it with a Co fleet if it fired T1 De. T2 isn't even necessary.

Cat:

People often underestimate how bad 3-ship roiding fleets are compared to 2-ship ones. It's better to invest extra hard in Scarab than to make any Arachnid at all. That's just how the math works out, even if De is not your primary fleet. The better init on the Arachnid is nearly useless, as the Tula is the only ship that fires at De at init 2, and its ETA is too low for alliance defence anyway. And since the Widow isn't that good anyway, the balance tips even further in favour of just building a ton of Scarab, though I wouldn't advise skipping the Widow too.

Spider suffers from being too slow. Firing at Etd Fi at init 7 just doesn't cut it. And since I don't need to hide my ships from Etd Fi anyway, it's better to build Beetles (which covers 2 of the 3 Co fleets too) and leave them home to flak. I don't see a way for a Fi ship to become useful for Cat at all, to be honest. Either move it to Fr or Cr and change it utterly, or just remove it. Cat has plenty of ships to choose from anyway.

That still doesn't fix the general crappiness of the Cat De fleet, unfortunately, which can roid almost nothing (only Xan Fr for sure, and maybe other Cats or Etd). Viper/Scarab might look good defensively too, but unfortunately Fr and De can only flak each other against Cr. Maybe remove the Arachnid and add a T2 Cr target to the Widow?

While we're talking about Cat anyway, Mantis. You need Widow as anti-Bs in a Cat De fleet, and you want to steal Bs with a Co/Bs setup, and you don't need EMP beyond what little the Scarab provides. Mantis might become a little less crap if Spider became a Cr.

However, my main worry is about the incredible synergy between Zik and Cat. Both races get Co and Bs roiding fleets without any overlap (Zik and Cat Co both cover Fi-Fr and Cat and Zik Bs both cover De-Cr), and EMP/Steal are known to work extremely well together. The fact that Cat has no Co pods is not enough of a handicap. As the stats stand now, I see no reason for any alliance to go anything other than Cat/Zik Co/Bs, with a smattering of Ter Co/Cr to cover the Bs hole. This is the by far the most severe problem with these stats.


Xan:

Xan roids hard, but gets roided hard in return. If XP was still viable, this'd be the XP race. Since we don't, I guess it's fairly middle of the road.

Cr is very strong, but with Xan research, hard to reach, so I feel that balances out. Fr is solid, not too strong, not to weak.

I'm a little worried about both Fr and Cr roiding itself.

Zik:

Cutlass is useless. Zik Co covers Fi/Co on its own, and Zik Fr covers Co on its own, making the Ravager a better choice. Zik can't steal Fi, so maybe moving it to De to kill Fi/Fr or Fr/Fi would be good? That'd help out Zik Fr too, which is pretty weak.

Bs is very strong, even without Cat backup. With Cat backup, the fleet becomes unstoppable (see above), with great faking abilities to boot. I'd be inclined to remove the Bs pod, since Bs is stronger than Co (solo and in team-ups), and both Crook and Bucc steal Bs, providing some opportunity for stealing pods.

Investor and Widow steal each other at same init.

Etd:

Dealer is useless. Etd Fi/De is a great fleet, and building a 6th ship (along with either Investor or Avenger) off-class just to steal some Fi (which you don't want anyway, because Etd has the strongest Fi in the game) seems like a waste to me.

Illuminator is useless because Baliff covers Bs from a roiding class, and I need a T1 anti-De ship anyway.

I don't see a good way to fix these 2 Etd ships. There's such great synergy between Fi and De that it's almost always pointless to build anything other than something to stop De.
Ter:
Agree on the Pegasus change and followed

Cat:
Workaround to enable a solid Co roiding fleet that needs to be teamed though
Cat CO if able to covop pods makes CO a strong option now - without unbalancing it totally
Spider emping FI now (still firing after etd FI)
Mantis init lowered to 1
Arachnid removed - i dont really want cath to be able to steal CR ships - CR as it stands is good enough
Aswell i dont think Cath DE is that weak - its a 1-ship roiding fleet - no one else has that - specially as the only alliance eta defence is Frigate class which will be emped at around 160%
If at all iīd enable Cat stealing DE ships - but i am fine atm with them having 1 steal option - and also with the Roiding Abilities the DE fleet has allready
I am planning to make the Widow better though - have to look at all them effīs soonish

Xan:
no changes

Zik:
BS Pod removed
cutlass i wanna keep for everyone not going ZIK CO and also for alliances basing their anti fi/co on fi class

Thinking about making the Pirate a CRUISER

Etd:
no changes
even though i agree on the Dealer - i want to keep it there to allow ppl to pimp up their FI fleets with Kill ships
no change on Illuminator either - they are the best anti BS around and i like to keep it at that
Beeing weak against DE is a good compromiss for having 2 very good roiding fleets i think

I think i solved the issues with this set now - if you say the possible BS option on ZIK/CAT is still too strong - iīd be going for the Pirate change above
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Unread 21 Feb 2015, 12:13   #35
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Re: Round 61 stats

I think with a missing Co pod for Cat and a missing Bs pod for Zik, that the Co/Bs option has been nerfed enough.

... I said that before noticing the changes to Cat Fi/Co. Don't like those at all. Init 3 EMP anti-Fi is completely useless. And I mean completely. It would have to be init 1 to make any different beyond just being flak, and that seems like it'd be overkill. Cat Co also doesn't have a pod, so it is essentially dead. And since Zik Co on its own is pretty weak, that leaves with Zik with no viable roiding fleets. I'd revert the change to Spider/Beetle/Moth.

On a sidenote, I don't think you need to remove or revamp all the ships I've called useless. At best, some 'useless' ships turn out to be useful after all. At worst, they just have no impact on the game. Win/win. I tend to approach them as opportunities to fix more pressing issues with the stats. If there are no other issues to fix, then nothing needs to be done.

I've just now taken a look at the effs, and they seem reasonable overall. Banshee and Crook A/C a bit low, Ter Cr, Banshee and Zik D/C a bit low.
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Unread 21 Feb 2015, 22:03   #36
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Re: Round 61 stats

Ok reverted the CO change of CAT

also finished the emp effs

Please if you guys could check the emp effs - your insight is welcome

http://beta.planetarion.com/statsanalysis.pl?

Once the emp effs are finished iīll look at A/C D/C of everything
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Unread 21 Feb 2015, 23:22   #37
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Re: Round 61 stats

The stats have went from potentally good/great to at best mediocre.

the Etd Fi and cath bs fleets are the only option for solo roiding (I would like to add that if there is captured kill fi ships for etd planets and captured kill BS ships for cath planets would have to be audited by MHs carefully)and co fleets are still "Broken" imo which makes going co a no go for alliance choices.

Frig fleets is a possibilty
De is a maybe
Cr would depend on how Xan's research rate as cr will take along time to get even with rushing it.

Terran is imo the weakest race to play.
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Unread 22 Feb 2015, 03:10   #38
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Re: Round 61 stats

co is a pretty nice alliance option
you just need to have your cath covop pods, which isnt really hard with 2 races spaming co fleets for early attacks
without this - it will hardly work i agree

but there is a fast and very good eta8 roiding fleet in universe allready - i dont feel it will help the racial mix to add a second

for their solo-roiding abilities i agree, (if you wanna solo go cath bs or etd fi) but you cant be looking at 0 loss captures all the way, cause then ofc EMP is the only option

the only race not able to attack solo is ZIK pretty much
but them have nice options with stealing BS pods and generally in teamups with ter or xan and with some good kill ships alongside to make them overall a good choice

for the cath DE, i dont see how adding the additional DE targeting CR as t1 helps the case, when (mz is right here) it made simply more sense to invest extra hard in scarabs instead
i dont have any issues with adding the ship again though

TER for sure is the hardest race to land solo - but TER is so easily overpowered with their high A/C and the existing salvage rules that its a small step between having them too weak and too strong
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Unread 22 Feb 2015, 04:29   #39
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Re: Round 61 stats

Looks like im playing etd Fi if there is no further changes
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Unread 22 Feb 2015, 08:29   #40
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Re: Round 61 stats

iīll try finishing AC DC tonight
then we can ran some calcs and look at things again

overall for alliance choices i feel it probably might be best to go for more then 1 roiding class as an alliance
but that doesnt have to be a bad thing - just leads to some more diversity
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Unread 22 Feb 2015, 10:49   #41
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Re: Round 61 stats

It's a mistake to only count fleets that have no counters at all as 'viable solo fleets'. If that was the criterium, then only unstoppable fleets would be acceptable, which hardly makes for a dynamic game.

PA roiding is and always has been a matter of exhausting your target's defense, not about finding some mythical fleet combo that lands even if your target has an infinite amount of support.

Once your target's defense has been exhausted, only the home fleet needs to be countered, and there are plenty of roiding fleets in this set of stats that certain races have no viable counter against. A selection: Ter Co vs Xan, Ter Cr vs Ter, Cat Co vs Xan, Cat Bs vs Zik, Xan Fr vs Etd, Xan Cr vs Ter, Zik Bs vs Cat, Etd Fi vs Cat, Etd De vs Zik
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Unread 22 Feb 2015, 20:27   #42
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Re: Round 61 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It's a mistake to only count fleets that have no counters at all as 'viable solo fleets'. If that was the criterium, then only unstoppable fleets would be acceptable, which hardly makes for a dynamic game.

PA roiding is and always has been a matter of exhausting your target's defense, not about finding some mythical fleet combo that lands even if your target has an infinite amount of support.

Once your target's defense has been exhausted, only the home fleet needs to be countered, and there are plenty of roiding fleets in this set of stats that certain races have no viable counter against. A selection: Ter Co vs Xan, Ter Cr vs Ter, Cat Co vs Xan, Cat Bs vs Zik, Xan Fr vs Etd, Xan Cr vs Ter, Zik Bs vs Cat, Etd Fi vs Cat, Etd De vs Zik
I find this way of thinking a bit limited if not lazy, there has been rounds where it is possible to fake meta classes and still land on defence because it was the wrong type (R17 I stole over 10k roids because I could fake ter de as bs. In R42 I could fake zik de as cr on xan which help got me a good finish and in the top gal.) In theory you could fake cath de as bs and xan fr as cr but your targets would have to have particular fleet compositions. (The ship cost differences between the meta classes are quite different verus the 2 rounds Ive suggested)

I have found that alliances have been stuck in a routine of target picking at 7-9pm, prelaunch and hope for the best. In the past I have arranged fakes on raids to def drain the targets alliances but I found unless you have some sort of reward system like an attack point (I.E ND) you don't get many volunteers.

I do recall CT in R40 were inventive on how they attacked when they war on apprime which was practically 24-7. Ranging from fleetcatching a hostile fleet expecting it to be defended jgp the target and set a raid the defenders with fleets out to be roided. (double jeopardy as I called it at the time) or just lol wave APP's top planets (I.E Elviz / eksero), jgp and hit the defenders when it got to a certain eta recall the lol wave so defenders can't get fleet back in time.
From what I have heard that this type of live BCing is non existant.
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Unread 22 Feb 2015, 21:12   #43
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Re: Round 61 stats

I'm not sure that is so much an issue of stats as declining BC and general activity.
I have seen lots of fakes this round. Ive been landed on by etd fi/co as fr and Terr fi as DE. Several others i've thought might be but recalled before I could find out.
Ive sent FR as BS too even tho generally speaking I dont like faking.
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Unread 22 Feb 2015, 21:27   #44
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Re: Round 61 stats

Having the possibility of faking meta classes is imo a factor in stat making however I would say assessing the games landscape is a factor for the stat maker aswell.

If you find folk complaining of ship stats being too defensive (must be lacking lands or something) lack of alliances having the hunger to go for #1 alliance.
If I was the stat maker I would have made the stats more offensive and more solo options to try and counteract the above factors.
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Unread 22 Feb 2015, 21:52   #45
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Re: Round 61 stats

Faking is perfectly possible with these stats. I'm having a hard time even imagining how one would go about making that impossible, to be honest. In any case, even if correct, that'd be a completely unrelated to "you can't solo with these stats".
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Unread 22 Feb 2015, 23:37   #46
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Re: Round 61 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Faking is perfectly possible with these stats. I'm having a hard time even imagining how one would go about making that impossible, to be honest. In any case, even if correct, that'd be a completely unrelated to "you can't solo with these stats".
I'm not turning this into a troll thread (SD imo should be flame free and be an exchange of ideas unlike AD posting culture... if I have come across in this manner I apologize)

I'll explain myself on how I come to the conclusion of you can't solo with these stats without going etd Fi or cath bs (i'll explain and explain how one could fake meta classes.)

As the stats/game mechanics stands... Winning players are usually value players (I can recall an exception in r16 branded the XP round) best way to win is to get roids and crash as little ships/value as possible.
Xp playing isn't as profitable as playing value especially for alliance play (value = more ships which usually means less fleets to cover inc for ally mates in comparison to an xp player etc.)

using this round as an example
http://kia.cthq.net/index.php?p=rankalliance
Ultores have won due to value superiority rather than xp gains etc.
(ultores from my understanding played the politics aswell)

With this in mind what I would call a successful attack is capping the most roids as possible with the least ship losses as possible ideally 0 loss.
(the first/last 3 days of a round you can cap alot of xp and losses can be ok but generally most of the round is crash as little ships as possible for roids.)

When you come to attacks and defense... Most DCs will prioritize defense on the member usually by some defense priority system which in case usually the top planets get priority. (I'm aware the Ultores defense culture its help yourself to cover your incs but get told off HC if you leech too much defense etc Ive been too much out of the loop to know how Ultores would prioritze defense for mass incs / gangbanging) which will mean in most cases the top planets will get first choice in available defense ships.

in terms of % landing youre going to have better odds bottom feeding than hitting fat/top planets i'll explain why. (Mz did raise the point of having a defense pool of ships and when that runs out they lose roids)

In cases of Fr/De/Cr inc the best way to DC it is to inflict losses to the attacker suffient enough to force them to recall at the same time have losses reasonably covered so they don't call your bluff and land it / play chicken etc.

Lets use frig an as example.
If you solo xan fr and you solo on a zik planet (you will get what I call "first cut in") the xan fr ships fire before the zik ships do.

taking similar planets less than 1 week old say 100k value 150k score. 500ish roid planet.
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=xu02ps12tww2t0w
As a DC what would be the best way to defend it...
My choice would be is to get ships that fire before the xan ships do ideally kill ships. I would use Sylph and Moth and flank it using co ships.(run the de ships)
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=601x8mg4sk0dafv (ideally covered)
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=0qvurylahbn0rt6 (covered with using kill only)

Now to reverse the roles with a zik frig attacking a hulls 1 ter planet. (cr rush would be an option but the hydra is such a dire ship its not worth rushing cr imo... my arguement for not being able to solo with ter cr and would need to team up with xan cr which will take xans with their current research rate a good while to catch up with their terran counter parts not to mention the odds of getting hulls 3/BS defence on your cr attack unlikely for the first week/few days but for most xans they will miss this benefit imo)
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=409ulszxqmcax6a
best way I would cover it if I had first shout on alliance defense ships
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=4pnmr2k6vnu49h9
even if faked youre running the risk of crashing.
(not to mention demo cath scanners take 2-3 days to get AU, which I would need to check)

now to cover against weaknesses it would be better and I bet if there is an alliance / alliances going frig they would encourage their ziks and xans to mix their fleets so there is a higher defense tolerance in landing their attacks. Ghost and clipper heavy fleets.

This means to compensate for teaming up in this manner you will have to be organised in team mates and reduces the % of being able to live launch etc .Meaning showing up on JGP and since most alliances attacks are alliance wide it also means higher % of leaks for landing ticks etc I.E. PLed Wraith etc... I have said in the past it is best for Attacks to be in BGs and only BCs can see the big picture of the attack to reduce % of leaks (The IRA did their attacks in cells etc)
(if I can't find a decent target on the raid I either find a retal on the alliance defense page or jgp a target on the raid and hit a defender with fleet out etc if I am up at peak times)

edit - Etd fi gets first cut in even though it is EMP and imo MHs will have to keep an eye out for blatent ship farming of non etd Fi ships and cath BS only Illuminators fire before it from a cr defense angle but doesnt stop roach firing/getting in first cut etc.
Cath de fires first v frig class defense but is open to bs/cr def ingal. which means great for bottom feeding but not hitting top gals in comparsion

The only 2 faking meta class options are cath de as Bs and xan fr as cr but even then your targets are limited due to their fleet compositions.

If I had some AUs from the beta I could demonstrate this better. in general you could fake xan fr as cr on other xans and cath de as bs on hulls 2 xans as examples.
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Unread 23 Feb 2015, 02:03   #47
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Re: Round 61 stats

Obviously Appocomaster spun PA around a little more.

----

Changes for this round will be announced closer to the time but alliance limits and buddy pack sizes are planned to remain static. We are also planning on re-introducing multi-tick combat- please see below.


Round 61 Beta

Approximately the same time that havoc starts (possibly Sunday 1st March), we will be starting to trial multi-tick combat in beta, to allow players and alliances to get used to it and to tweak what we've barely seen in many rounds now. Players are welcome - #beta on NetGamers is the place to be!

----

If there was to be multitick combat, i suggest that stats are being done with some more thoughts put in to it.
As long as we leave out IsildurX and Tiamata this could be done
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Unread 23 Feb 2015, 03:29   #48
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I'm not turning this into a troll thread
And then BéBé showed up...


Seriously though, your argument for why soloing isn't viable is stupid and would apply to every single good set of stats. Every attacking fleet should have a ship against it that stops it, otherwise you end up with a round like last round where everyone goes Xan Fi (or whichever fleet roids everyone) and just attacks with impunity. The way it's usually remedied is with EMP (think Ranger/Tzen vs Banshee) though cases like this round's Broadswords are also acceptable in my opinion (prelaunch def). Rogues stopping Bs without counter is not.

If soloing is not viable simply because defense would stop it, then we end up in a round where EMP is required to land and cover anything and everything.
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Unread 23 Feb 2015, 04:23   #49
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Re: Round 61 stats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Seriously though, your argument for why soloing isn't viable is stupid and would apply to every single good set of stats
I've explained in detail as to why team ups would be needed like frig to cover init weaknesses as a good dc will know how to best defuse attack / lower the defense tolerence.
and soloing with a kill/steal/non emp fleet without bottom feeding will likely mean an easily covered attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Every attacking fleet should have a ship against it that stops it, otherwise you end up with a round like last round where everyone goes Xan Fi (or whichever fleet roids everyone) and just attacks with impunity. The way it's usually remedied is with EMP (think Ranger/Tzen vs Banshee) though cases like this round's Broadswords are also acceptable in my opinion (prelaunch def). Rogues stopping Bs without counter is not.
http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=59

You have kind of made my point to what people look for when choosing a roiding fleet. fast init and get first cut in (emp defense excluded) Xan fi that round is only stopped via ingal pegs and emp ships like the beetle with other co ships flaked with it. Most players go for the best roiding option i would say its upto the statmaker to provide "options"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
If soloing is not viable simply because defense would stop it, then we end up in a round where EMP is required to land and cover anything and everything.
I seemed to gotten the impression due to people complaining that R60 have been defensive and folk are looking for a change ... is this wrong?
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Unread 23 Feb 2015, 08:59   #50
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
troll
This term is thrown around way too easily on the PA forums. It's been twisted from a specific term for people who misrepresent their positions in order to aggravate their opponents to a generic shut-down aimed at anyone who voices a dissenting opinion. Your posts in this thread are perfectly fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
taking similar planets less than 1 week old say 100k value 150k score. 500ish roid planet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Now to reverse the roles with a zik frig attacking a hulls 1 ter planet.
I'm not a big fan of using the early ticks as representative of the round as a whole. As you said, the fraction of your fleet that you can get away with crashing diminishes as the round goes on (and then peaks very briefly during the last 72 ticks).

As for the rest of your post, I don't really see how it relates to the topic at hand. You have a couple of bcalcs, showing that you have to recall from planets that get defense and can land planets that don't. That's exactly what I've been saying. The attackers in your calcs are not faking, they're just sending a standard fleet. Then there's something about teaming up requiring organization and live launching? And then a bit about ship farming... I just don't get what the point is you're trying to make, honestly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
The only 2 faking meta class options are cath de as Bs and xan fr as cr but even then your targets are limited due to their fleet compositions.
Why can't you fake Ter Co as Cr? Why can't you fake Zik Co as Bs? Faking is not about killing your opponent, it's about outsmarting them. And it's pretty much risk-free to boot: if you lose a few Co, who cares? (I'm not saying this fake is even close to good, but it illustrates the point.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I've explained in detail as to why team ups would be needed like frig to cover init weaknesses as a good dc will know how to best defuse attack / lower the defense tolerence.
and soloing with a kill/steal/non emp fleet without bottom feeding will likely mean an easily covered attack.
The point is that your opponent cannot cover anything if they have no ships or fleets to cover with. This is why we use galraids, and don't just randomly solo roid around the universe. Sure, picking a fleet that lands more (ie, has fewer counters) is better than picking one that lands less (has more counters), but it looks to me like most fleets can land on at least 2 races... assuming they don't/can't get defense from one of the other 2-3 races. That assumption is, in my view, what this argument is all about.

When defending, you pile on ships until you win the battle, and then the opponent recalls (allowing you to recall and defend again) or crashes (giving you salvage and reducing pressure on you the next night). If you've run out of ships or fleets, you give up, and the attacker lands for free.

When attacking, you take enough ships that you can easily defeat the home planet, and make it hard to stop you with anything other than the hard counters to your fleet. If your target cannot get defense, you land. If not, you recall and possibly relaunch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I seemed to gotten the impression due to people complaining that R60 have been defensive and folk are looking for a change ... is this wrong?
Depends on who you ask. You'd get quite a different answer if you asked me than if you asked, say, Wishmaster.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 23 Feb 2015 at 09:18.
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