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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 16:23   #51
JonnyBGood
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
Someone slips into a coma. The doctors check the terms of his insurance and act accordingly. This puts the decision ultimately on the dead guy so even if I do decide to kill my dad it's his choice and not me deciding for other people.

In a libertarian society everyone would be forced to buy health insurance!



I even covered this exact point


Quote:
If your father agreed on that sort of action prior to the disease taking affect I wouldn't have a problem with that. Arbitrarily taking a life when all hope is not gone I do have a problem with.

My point concerned when this hasn't happened.
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 16:40   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
In a libertarian society everyone would be forced to buy health insurance!



I even covered this exact point





My point concerned when this hasn't happened.
No sane medical organisation would treat people whose relatives could ask to keep on the drip indefinitely without raising the price.

If you think healthcare is a service and not a social good then the providers of that service only have to fulfill their requirements. If you reject any kind of social healthcare and want some fantasy magical system then a discussion on ethics is fairly irrelevant. If you don't know your relatives informed opinion on this sort of issue then that's your own fault.

If you can't make a simple decision on behalf on someone else just because the exact details haven't been discussed then tough. Sure, take scientific progress into account. But that's quantifiable, not some proof of inalienable rights. After you take the relevant facts into account, erring on the side of caution is just another kind of erring. There's no point sacrificing your time on Earth for an astronomical chance of his recovery; if the cons outweigh the pros then pull the plug.
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 16:43   #53
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 16:55   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
After you take the relevant facts into account, erring on the side of caution is just another kind of erring.
There aren't given "facts" though. A 1% chance of recovery (not that it's ever that quantifiable) may be worth x to you and y to another. Saying "Ah, but the contract will decide!" is just shifting the debate.

What level of premiums would you be willing to pay to keep you alive in event of a coma? What level of current financial burden would you suffer to safeguard a relatives life in the future given such circumstances. It seems the original question posed in the topic is still valid.

If you were the head of a charitable trust with 10 million dollars for "Help the Orphans" what would you spend on an individual case?
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 16:57   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
No sane medical organisation would treat people whose relatives could ask to keep on the drip indefinitely without raising the price.
Because after a certain length of time the money you're paying them suddenly disappears? I'm not quite sure what you're aiming at here.

Quote:
If you think healthcare is a service and not a social good then the providers of that service only have to fulfill their requirements. If you reject any kind of social healthcare and want some fantasy magical system then a discussion on ethics is fairly irrelevant. If you don't know your relatives informed opinion on this sort of issue then that's your own fault.
Frankly I think it's both a service and a social good. I'd love a system which provided free healthcare to everyone without taking away from anyone else what is their due. Unfortunately this is just not possible.

Quote:
If you can't make a simple decision on behalf on someone else just because the exact details haven't been discussed then tough. Sure, take scientific progress into account. But that's quantifiable, not some proof of inalienable rights. After you take the relevant facts into account, erring on the side of caution is just another kind of erring. There's no point sacrificing your time on Earth for an astronomical chance of his recovery; if the cons outweigh the pros then pull the plug.
I wasn't arguing this at all. I wished to make the point that on many occasions the pros outweight the cons, and that where we think no hope exists there is often a chance that many people aren't even aware of. I'm just in favour of people making informed decisions.
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 17:08   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
There aren't given "facts" though. A 1% chance of recovery (not that it's ever that quantifiable) may be worth x to you and y to another. Saying "Ah, but the contract will decide!" is just shifting the debate.
Someone needs to know how much the life is worth. A default for some society is fine. There is no obvious default for an individual case. It doesn't have to be particularly nice; the NHS treats young people a lot better (less worse) than old people.

Quote:
What level of premiums would you be willing to pay to keep you alive in event of a coma? What level of current financial burden would you suffer to safeguard a relatives life in the future given such circumstances. It seems the original question posed in the topic is still valid.
Correct, I'm arguing against life as something inviolate, I think.

I don't have the money so I'd need to borrow, but several millions for the rest of my life, and several hundreds of thousands for the rest of a direct relatives', approximately. I don't need to decide though.

Quote:
If you were the head of a charitable trust with 10 million dollars for "Help the Orphans" what would you spend on an individual case?
I'd look at our social contract.
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 17:09   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
Because after a certain length of time the money you're paying them suddenly disappears? I'm not quite sure what you're aiming at here.
There's inflation, but I doubt that's what he's getting at.
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 17:11   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood

I wasn't arguing this at all. I wished to make the point that on many occasions the pros outweight the cons, and that where we think no hope exists there is often a chance that many people aren't even aware of. I'm just in favour of people making informed decisions.
****ing optimists wasting our taxes.
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Unread 18 Aug 2003, 17:12   #59
JonnyBGood
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
****ing optimists wasting our taxes.

Libertarians love those taxes!
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Unread 19 Aug 2003, 05:51   #60
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